Rifles/Handguns as Investments


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arizona_cards_11
May 1, 2013, 06:06 PM
Hi all,

I'm just looking for some feedback in regards to the purchasing of firearms as investments. I've noticed that on almost every purchase & resell, be it a handgun or rifle, I've made money.

Which rifles have the highest resale value during panics? Because I'm assuming AR15's will be the answer, which would be the 'go to' as safe queens for future selling? I want something that will move.

Should I go with low-mid tier brands for quantity or mid-upper tier for name recognition and quality?

In addition to other, more traditional forms of investment (Roth IRA, 401k, etc...), I've calculated that I can spend roughly $1500 per month, which would work out to a gun or two. (I'm not putting all of my eggs in 1 basket)

Any help would be greatly appreciated!!! I'm just a young guy looking for some solid financial guidance from people I trust.

Thanks again.

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TheSaint
May 1, 2013, 06:39 PM
Inflation means that your dollar are worth less than they used to be in strict unit amounts. Personally, it is hard to make a lot of money in firearms short of a really bad civil unrest or extended without rule of law situation. That being said, I've always made money on firearms as well. For instance, I bought a H&K P-30 9mm pistol a year ago for $820 with two magazines. I bought during the non-panic four additional mags for $30 a piece. My gun was selling for around $1000 used during the height of the panic, and as recently as two weeks ago, someone paid $115 for two of the mags on gunbroker.com. If you pick a firearm that is of high quality like an H&K and you've studied ahead of time that it can be at time hard to get extra mags, in time of a shortage if you have the gun and mags paired together and they are well-kept in terms of cleaning/no rust/etc, you'll never loose value, and often increase.

I don't recommend getting into really exotic guns that it is hard to find ammo or accessories/mags for, as you really have to be a professional collector to know what guns are likely to increase in value, and if so, which ones you'll be able to easily resell so your money isn't tied. If you google "blue book of guns" there are several books on the value of any given firearm to get an idea of what the market will pay in normal times for any particular model.

silicosys4
May 1, 2013, 06:45 PM
Remember, like anything, if you are buying guns as an investment, condition is everything. Make sure you have adequate storage so as to ensure the continued condition of your guns. At least guns aren't like cars, you don't need a heated warehouse, just a heated room/safe.

That said, there are many other things you can invest in that will yield more consistently than firearms in the long term.
If you are really serious about guns as investment opportunities, prepare to spend a lot of money. The more guns you sell for profit, the closer you are to being a gun dealer, which requires licensing and FFL paperwork.
Consider NFA licensing, legal fully automatic weaponry and exclusive collectibles seem to do better than anything.
Consider who is going to have disposable income to buy weaponry in 20-25 years, and what they would want to pay that money for.....right now its older gentlemen who remember their pre 64 winchesters, colt revolvers, etc...
You aren't going to pay for a summer house by selling a couple of handguns for $100 more than you paid for them.

TheSaint
May 1, 2013, 06:52 PM
Silicosys4 makes a valid point. You do have to tie up quite a few dollars to make a gain. That being said, firearms are a fairly safe investment. They will always keep their value and often make marginal gains, provided you've taken good care of them. I consider them an investment instrument more like bonds. You aren't going to make tons of money, but you aren't likely to loose it either. In some ways it might make more sense to invest in ammo in popular calibers if you can get it for a really good bulk price when you are NOT in a panic. When the next panic comes, you can see anywhere from 10-50% or more increases in terms of value, plus a common caliber like 9mm, 223, etc you can sell to anyone who has a gun that chambers it, whereas trying to sell a gun is much more specific as some people want certain models only, can't afford what you're asking for, etc. Ammo you can also sell it in bulk, or piece it out and sell it in smaller amounts depending upon the buyer's needs. In my opinion, good bulk buys on ammo are easier investment vehicles to make money in, provided you didn't overpay when you bought the ammo in the first place.

arizona_cards_11
May 1, 2013, 06:55 PM
Remember, like anything, if you are buying guns as an investment, condition is everything. Make sure you have adequate storage so as to ensure the continued condition of your guns. At least guns aren't like cars, you don't need a heated warehouse, just a heated room/safe.

That said, there are many other things you can invest in that will yield more consistently than firearms in the long term.
If you are really serious about guns as investment opportunities, prepare to spend a lot of money. The more guns you sell for profit, the closer you are to being a gun dealer, which requires licensing and FFL paperwork.
Consider NFA licensing, legal fully automatic weaponry and exclusive collectibles seem to do better than anything.
Consider who is going to have disposable income to buy weaponry in 20-25 years, and what they would want to pay that money for.....right now its older gentlemen who remember their pre 64 winchesters, colt revolvers, etc...
You aren't going to pay for a summer house by selling a couple of handguns for $100 more than you paid for them.
True....which is why I'm pursuing more conventional investment methods as well.

I'll be in the work force for atleast another 30 years spending $1500+ on firearms. I figure that I'll ATLEAST retain wealth. (Assuming I can maintain NIB condition) I have no plans of buying anything wildly exotic, just quality, recognizable, high demand items.

fdf
May 1, 2013, 07:04 PM
In all honesty, what guns may be out lawed in 30 years and cannot be sold?

If a person had vision they would know what to buy, pre-64 Winchesters a long time ago,, what is going up in 30 years and can be sold on the open market?

Kind of like the coin market, very risky.

silicosys4
May 1, 2013, 07:13 PM
In all honesty, what guns may be out lawed in 30 years and cannot be sold?

If a person had vision they would know what to buy, pre-64 Winchesters a long time ago,, what is going up in 30 years and can be sold on the open market?

Kind of like the coin market, very risky.

I honestly think that firearms are a very solid investment, in that its hard to "lose" money, per say...(when was the last time you saw a "gun market crash")....but you have to be smart about it, spend large amounts of money on exclusive items to realize large profits, and realize that "keeping up with inflation" does not mean "making profits".
I often see people who brag about paying "only" $300 for a new colt python, or whatever they paid in 1972, without realizing that they really paid current market price, once adjusted for inflation.

HKGuns
May 1, 2013, 07:19 PM
Guns ARE NOT investments.

Ed Ames
May 1, 2013, 07:35 PM
Everything, from stocks to education to bulk toilet paper, is an investment.

It's just that guns are usually fairly bad investments from a monetary perspective. Especially since in most cases the guns we deal with are the equivalent of Toyotas...middle of the road with very little chance of becoming collector items.

rdhood
May 1, 2013, 07:50 PM
Guns ARE NOT investments.

This.

Aside from the "it's hard to make a dollar investing in guns blah blah blah", my thinking is that anything weapons-related will forever be at risk of confiscation/pirating/outlawing/envying/theft . You get my drift. Just about any other kind of investment... say diamonds or art or something... actually have a lot of those drawbacks. But they don't have politicians trying to chip away at diamond rights or art rights. They don't have a government bureau dedicated to alcohol, tobacco and diamonds.

But I am of the capitalist persuasion. If someone wants to do it and has the means, have at it.

arizona_cards_11
May 1, 2013, 07:54 PM
This.

Aside from the "it's hard to make a dollar investing in guns blah blah blah", my thinking is that anything weapons-related will forever be at risk of confiscation/pirating/outlawing/envying/theft . You get my drift. Just about any other kind of investment... say diamonds or art or something... actually have a lot of those drawbacks. But they don't have politicians trying to chip away at diamond rights or art rights. They don't have a government bureau dedicated to alcohol, tobacco and diamonds.

But I am of the capitalist persuasion. If someone wants to do it and has the means, have at it.
I understand the risks, but wouldn't that be the primary reason you 'invest' in certain guns? The possibility of legislation outlawing/grandfathering is relatively high, which (I would assume) means supply steadily drops while demand remains constant.

Wouldn't they be similar to a full-auto AR lower/parts? You may have paid $1000 for something that automatically becomes worth $2000+ overnight. (maybe alot more)

oneounceload
May 1, 2013, 07:58 PM
If you have that much money to invest in high-end guns, you need a financial adviser to steer you to the best stocks and bonds. Guns are not an investment when you factor in inflation. You might be able to sell a better quality gun in ten years for a few bucks more than you paid, but a decent investment portfolio will have gone up a LOT more

KAS1981
May 1, 2013, 08:01 PM
Guns are bad investments. There are very, very few firearms that are worth more now than they were when sold new.

Ed Ames
May 1, 2013, 08:04 PM
The possibility of legislation outlawing/grandfathering is relatively high, which (I would assume) means supply steadily drops while demand remains constant.

Not if they make transfers illegal.

Check out the situation with full auto arms. When they closed the registry they created a system where one Model X gun can be legally transferred, while a second identical Model X cannot. The transferable gun went up in value, the other became a huge legal liability that the feds will confiscate without any compensation if you are lucky, and arrest you at the same time if you aren't.

You can grandfather existing guns and bar transfers. Look at California registered "Assault Weapons". They are "grandfathered" if they were registered on time. They aren't worth much because you can't sell them to anyone in the state, and outside the state there are newer/better versions.

arizona_cards_11
May 1, 2013, 08:06 PM
Not if they make transfers illegal.

Check out the situation with full auto arms. When they closed the registry they created a system where one Model X gun can be legally transferred, while a second identical Model X cannot. The transferable gun went up in value, the other became a huge legal liability that the feds will confiscate without any compensation if you are lucky, and arrest you at the same time if you aren't.

You can grandfather existing guns and bar transfers. Look at California registered "Assault Weapons". They are "grandfathered" if they were registered on time. They aren't worth much because you can't sell them to anyone in the state, and outside the state there are newer/better versions.
Man.....this is considerably more difficult than I was imagining.

Thanks to everyone who is offering advice. I'm getting the vibe that this is a bad idea. :D

barnbwt
May 1, 2013, 10:48 PM
Whoever bought up all the Unica 6's when Mateba when belly up sure made a killing... He bought 'em for ~700$ and is releasing them occasionally for 3000$+ to this day :evil:

Like most low-return investment ventures, it only pays if you can buy into the table. You'll only make money if you can afford to hold onto warehouses worth of merchandise, and at that point, you might as well just run a business based off that (like CAI).

TCB

avs11054
May 1, 2013, 10:57 PM
Sorry if somebody covered it already, but I personally do not think you should be investing in something that can be made worthless with the stroke of a pen.

TIMC
May 1, 2013, 11:48 PM
Anything Evil in the gun world is a great investment. I have doubled my money multiple times on AR's, Uzi's, ect...

Every time ther is a panic I make a fortune and then but something nice for myself. I just picked up a nice Sauer & son 202 Forest in .308 with a Doctor 3x9 scopethat I would never have been able to afford with out panic pricing to help me finance it!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v369/timc/C387A34A-52C3-48B5-91A6-F3A887BE12AA-4847-000008CFB5990ABD_zpsbe3bb331.jpg

il.bill
May 2, 2013, 12:01 AM
Firearms, if purchased at a reasonable price, absolutely make good investments, so long as you do not spend money you cannot afford to lose.

Just ask my wife - she has heard me make that very statement (the first part of it, anyway) a number of times!

huntsman
May 2, 2013, 08:25 AM
Beanie-babies are easier to store and you don't need a license to deal in them.

jmr40
May 2, 2013, 08:26 AM
Guns are bad investments. There are very, very few firearms that are worth more now than they were when sold new.

This is true of the cheap budget guns now flooding the market. But virtually every gun I own will sell for more than it cost new, some quite a bit more. The secret is to buy quality, buy smart, buy used., and keep them for a while. Some guns have appreciated in value quite a bit. I have about a dozen Marlin and Winchester lever guns made beween 1958 and 1975. They sold for between $50-$150 new. Any decent shape lever action is selling for $300-$500 now.

I still think that overall guns are not a wise investment. I wouldn't buy up something just because I think I can make a dollar on it in the future. Too many unknown variables that can happen in the future that could dramatically reduce value. I buy quality guns that I like and that I want to use. Overall they do tend to increase in value. Right now they are increasing in value faster than money in the bank, but I wouldn't bank on that trend continuing long term. Pun intended. You also have to consider inflation. Just because you bought a rifle 40 years ago for $100 and it is worth $500 today doesn't mean you made any real money. $100 would have bought you 250 gallons of gas 40 years ago. $500 will only buy you about 150 gallons of gas today.

I honestly think that firearms are a very solid investment, in that its hard to "lose" money, per say...(when was the last time you saw a "gun market crash")....

Peoples tastes change. Remember my inflation example above. Manufacturers come out with new guns that often ruin the value of older used guns on the market. Gun markets crash quite often. My levers are probably at the peak of their value. In another 25-30 years their value won't keep up with inflation. Right now there are enough old farts like myself that like them to sell them at those prices. Most of my kids generation will have no interest in them. For the ones who do want one there are about 7 million Marlins and a like number of Winchesters to go around. I predict they may tend to increase in value, but at a much slower rate than inflation. When that happens you are really losing money, not gaining.

A pre-64 Winchester is another perfect example. From 1964-1994 any pre-64 sold at a premium because they were the only option for a USA made CRF rifle. In 1992 Ruger bought out a CRF rifle, Winchester brought out a much improved CRF rifle in 1994 and now Kimber is in the mix. A common pre 64's value has been declining for 20 years and now most only bring slightly more than any other 50-60 year old rifle. Rare configurations and calibers still bring a premium, but that is true with any brand of gun.

rgwalt
May 2, 2013, 09:26 AM
With an additional $1500 a month of disposable income, I would consider doing several things before buying guns as an investment:
-- Pay down/off a mortgage. If I didn't own a home, I would try to buy something nice and modest that would be relatively easy to sell down the line
-- Depending on where you live, buy additional land. I'm not necessarily talking about flipping lots in a city or a suburb, but instead buying some land in the "country" that I could shoot/hunt/fish/camp on, and build on down the line. Land is a decent investment... they aren't making more of it.
-- With the recent dip in metals, consider buying some silver and gold as an inflation hedge.

Investing in guns is tricky. Yes, there are a lot of guns that have increased in value considerably since they were first produced. Not all of them beat inflation, and of those that did, not all beat the S&P index (and this is what you should really look at... your alternative investment in the money isn't a vehicle to beat inflation... it is a low cost/fee index fund that matches the S&P 500, or a bond index fund). It is hard to know, before the fact, which guns will appreciate. Furthermore, "controversial" guns like MSRs could be difficult/impossible to sell down the line (However, if laws were passed that "banned" MSRs, you could make a killing selling your collection before the ban).

Consider the Colt Python vs the Ruger Security Six. Was the Colt a better gun? Sure. Is it so much better that it commands a 2x-3x premium for a NIB model today over the Ruger? Not in my opinion. Why the disparity in the market then? Brand name and quantity of production has a lot to do with it. If you had bought 10 rugers 40 years ago and put them away, would you have beat the S&P index? I'm not so sure.

Anyway, just some food for thought. Investing in guns can be a lot of fun because you get to buy lots of very cool firearms. If you want to spend your money like that, then go for it, but don't do so thinking you are going to get a huge return down the line. Here are some strategies/tactics:

-- Set up a schedule to scour the internet as well as local gun stores & pawn shops to find good deals on used, good condition firearms. You might even look into setting up a table at a local gun show. Save up that $1500 a month for a few months, and offer to buy firearms cash. Go into it knowing that you can walk away from any deal, and buy the guns at a good enough price to make it easy to resell. Consider age, condition, and rarity, and don't pay more than 50%-70% of its real value. You may want to specialize in a few different makes of firearms at first so you can really learn what they are worth out on the market. Consider that I've seen guns at my local gun shop and a gun shows that sit in cases for YEARS. You need to buy them at the right price so you can price them to sell without losing money.

-- If you want to collect new guns, then buy nice quality guns from well known manufacturers. Buy two at a time, one for yourself and one for your collection to resell down the line. Shoot your gun, but keep it well maintained and in excellent condition. Down the line you will have one that is brand new in box, and another used gun in good shape that can be resold as well.

-- Consider getting an FFL, or teaming up with a friend with an FFL. You don't need one for the buying, but you will likely need one for the selling down the line. You won't want to sell your collection to a dealer.

Best of luck, and have fun.

tarosean
May 2, 2013, 09:51 AM
The possibility of legislation outlawing/grandfathering is relatively high, which (I would assume) means supply steadily drops while demand remains constant.

A state recently didn't allow grandfathering.. When they do that your sitting on a pile of rubble.
If you want to invest 100+ year old guns are probably the only thing that are making money other than some odd balls.
Will this panic bubble repeat? Doubtfull since everyone that could ran out and paid the price of admission. Maybe the next generation will perpetuate it? I certainly wouldn't hedge my bets though.

plodder
May 2, 2013, 09:59 AM
I do not consider my guns as financial investments, but looking at the performance of my 401k over the past few years, perhaps I should reconsider:).
However, it is very difficult for me to take a portion of my 401k and go out to play with it for a day, put it back in the bank and be reasonably confident that at worst, I could someday recoup what I originally paid for it. So I do consider guns an investment in my joy, personal satisfaction with life and emotional well-being

Ed Ames
May 2, 2013, 10:23 AM
Humans have a big problem with windfalls. When we see someone enjoying a huge reward for a relatively simple act, there is something in our brain that lights up and screams, "do that!" Unfortunately, there are plenty of people who are willing to exploit that flaw.

Look at all the "commemorative" garbage, from plates to coins, drifting from curio cabinet to drawer to thrift store. Look at all the people feeding money to casinos. Look at that "guy" in NH who "lost his life savings" on a carnival game recently. Look at the lotteries. Look at the recent housing bubble, and all the bubbles that preceded it. None of those would exist if we didn't have wiring in our brain that predisposed us to seeking windfalls.

Some types of investments don't offer much chance of a windfall. A savings account is going to give a known, modest, return. The stock market as a whole is similar over the long haul. Those are the safe investments.

Most people who think about guns as investments are in that windfall-seeking mode. It's much higher risk. It's still an investment...but then again so is buying a lottery ticket.

That's why sensible people will tell you not to invest in guns, even when they are.

Sheepdog1968
May 2, 2013, 10:34 AM
There's a media finance person in the San Francisco Bay Area (Rob Black) who has talked about alternate forms of investment. His adivice is until you have at least 1 million dollars from the standard ways (401Ks, IRAs, non retirment funds) in the stock market, do NOT start alternate investments.

There are quite a few options once you have this money. What I typically see as the theme for the other forms of investment is getting top end rare stuff. Anything that is specifically labeled as a collectible (think Franklin Mint, commerative firearms, etc) probably isn't and should be avoided.

Most of us are unskilled enough in most areas where we would loose our shirts. There is a big difference between making a few hundred dollars profit and sinking several hundred thousand of dollars into this.

Personally, I have stayed to the boring stock market index mutual funds from Vanguard. It is slow and steady and boring (we all like exciting don't we) but over a lifetime, it has been shown to work over and over.

Two books I'd suggest:

Millionaire Next Door (will debunk lots of millionaire myths; I think it's by a "Stanley")

The Little Book on Investing by Boggle (or Boggel; or maybe just one g in the name)

Again, these are all my personal opinions. Don't take this as any professional advice.

arizona_cards_11
May 2, 2013, 10:51 AM
I think I'm going to take the extra cash that I've portioned for guns and try my hand at some mutual/index funds at Vanguard. I don't have the experience or time to research individual securities and create my own portfolio......but, I think I can manage a portfolio of passive/active mutual funds and index funds with a high-level strategy.

Thanks again for all of your help. It's nice to hear from those that are much more experienced than me.

HKGuns
May 2, 2013, 10:52 AM
I think I'm going to take the extra cash that I've portioned for guns and try my hand at some mutual/index funds at Vanguard.

Wise move. Good luck. Index funds are the most diversified. Factor in your age and time to retirement when evaluating your risk tolerance. If you're young, go aggressive.

Certaindeaf
May 2, 2013, 10:59 AM
The defense industry (trying to keep it "gun" related here!) has always had some attractive investment opportunities.. perhaps not as a sector but individual companies/concerns. Always diversify though.
No-load index funds are great for the bread and butter.

Ed Ames
May 2, 2013, 11:28 AM
As a side note...

One of the most useful exercises in cases like this is to find an online inflation calculator (e.g. http://WWW.westegg.com/inflation/) and to use that whenever you do a price comparison.

For example...

I remember a particular handgun selling for $179 in 1989. A search of gunsamerica shows them selling for $295 to $325.

According to that inflation calculator $179 in 1989 equals $326 in 2012. So they have held with inflation.

Around that time someone I know paid $369 for a Russian capture Luger. How much do they cost today? About $650-800. So that is better but still hardly great.

Another example. I know someone who paid about $600 for a very nice antique Webley MkII, around 2000. She would need to get almost $800 to break even on that deal. Could she? I doubt it.

Old guns of that range are OK from an inflation hedge perspective but not great.

There are plenty of people who have seen nice windfalls to to panic buying. There is zero reason to believe you can replicate that.

arizona_cards_11
May 2, 2013, 11:41 AM
I think I was bitten by a bit of unrealistic success, early on.

Last year I bought a 'Grade A' HK P7 for $650, which I sold a few months ago for $1350. I quickly doubled my money in less than a year. I now realize that this is not repeatable.

rdhood
May 2, 2013, 12:03 PM
The trick about panic buying (to make money by selling) is that you need to have what the panicked want BEFORE the panic. Who would have thought, for example, that 10/22's and .22LR would be on the panic list?

Last year I bought a 'Grade A' HK P7 for $650, which I sold a few months ago for $1350.

See what I mean? Who would have thought? That was luck. There WILL be more panics, but they may not always be going for HK P7.

AlexanderA
May 2, 2013, 12:11 PM
When you talk about guns as investments, you are really talking about collectible guns, and not guns for daily use. This segment of the gun world (gun collecting) is rapidly aging and dying off. Just go to a purely collectors' gun show (such as the annual Maryland Gun Collectors show at Timonium), and you see it packed full of geezers in wheelchairs, on crutches, etc. The problem is that the prices are too high to attract young people just starting out. The geezers (long-time collectors) can just trade among themselves, using the appreciation in their old guns to buy new ones. I doubt that much new money is entering this hobby.

Guns for daily use are a different animal altogether. But they're not good "investments" either. To be an investment, a gun would have to be kept pristine, and that's fundamentally inconsistent with use.

An investment market is characterized by liquidity -- the ability to buy and sell without undue barriers. Guns are not liquid assets (in that sense), and are becoming less and less liquid as we get more and more government regulations.

soonerfan85
May 2, 2013, 12:15 PM
PLEASE don't tell my wife guns are not an investment. That's the lie, no wait, what I mean to say is that's the excuse, I mean that's the rational as to why I buy certain guns. The unfired BRNO 611 in it's original box I bought for $600 a couple of years back should sell for around $1,000. The old Winchester and Remington slide fire .22s should sell for double what I paid a few years back. The Colt Python, SAA and old S&W pistols are safe queens as well. Problem is I won't ever sell them. The way I look at it is these guns will not loose value like my descretionary funds sitting in a bank savings account will due to inflation and taxes. They are an investment in the sense that my wife will have liquid assets to sell at crazy auction prices when I'm gone. As long as I can keep my hands off of them until then, they should bring a tidy sum for her. I agree that new firearms like ARs and such are probably a risky investment, nonetheless, many collector firearms today were just common firearms in their day. While I believe old firearms that were popular in their day and have since been discontinued, especially in odd calibers, are worth collecting as an investment, who's to say what the next great collectible firearm will be 50 years from now. Maybe the unicorn like KelTec PMR-30 or Sub2000? :p

When is the last time you took your quarterly mutual fund or stock earnings reports out of the safe and handled them, took pictures of them and talked to others about them? :neener: Maybe guns are not an investment, but they are a funvestment.

Zeke/PA
May 2, 2013, 02:19 PM
I never purchased a gun with the investment thought in mind but as it turns out, some of the stuff I bought years ago has really increased in value.
I own six Pre -64 Model 70's, two of which are Pre-War versions.
The old Winchester Lever Actions have value and the older Marlin made "Marlins" are getting harder to find.
Lugers of course, Colt Pythons and K-Frame Smiths.
A couple of friends are after My Fox shotguns and My Ruger #1's.
Admitidly I did some DUMB stuff with guns over the years but for the most part I still own all that I ever bought.

Certaindeaf
May 2, 2013, 02:25 PM
Let's put it this way.. you know those Indians that got a couple a beads for Manhattan?. how we snicker at them for being so stupid? Had they invested (would that have been/be possible) in a conventionally/historically returning vehicle, they'd have now made more money that what Manhattan is now worth.

joeschmoe
May 2, 2013, 02:42 PM
Sorry if somebody covered it already, but I personally do not think you should be investing in something that can be made worthless with the stroke of a pen.
Then you don't understand what "rights" are.

rodregier
May 2, 2013, 03:00 PM
A firearms biggest enemy isn't rust, it's politicians. That's a major wildcard in their market value retention over time. IMHO something like land or junk silver would be a better investment as a hedge again inflation or hyper-inflation. Unfortunate.

Certaindeaf
May 2, 2013, 03:01 PM
Then you don't understand what "rights" are.
Good point. One has to show damages in any court. I think it's interesting there aren't scads of class-action lawsuits directed at lawmakers regarding all manner of infringements. everything can be broken down into money, suffering, yada.

Sheepdog1968
May 2, 2013, 03:50 PM
I think I'm going to take the extra cash that I've portioned for guns and try my hand at some mutual/index funds at Vanguard. I don't have the experience or time to research individual securities and create my own portfolio......but, I think I can manage a portfolio of passive/active mutual funds and index funds with a high-level strategy.

Thanks again for all of your help. It's nice to hear from those that are much more experienced than me.
I think that's a great choice on your part. Also, for what it's worth. I am still 20 years out from retirement and have been saving for about 20 years. The money I have been setting aside has never made me feel like it would ammount to much but after 20 years I'm just starting to get a glimpse that I might be ok (NOT rich) in retirement. Just be consistent and keep doing it in good AND bad markets. Read read and read. Bob Brinker has lots of good books listed on his website. Our education system will teach you all kinds of things but they do not teach anything about investing. This is a big failure.

iiranger
May 2, 2013, 03:59 PM
My favorite "money advisor" is Roland Manarin, Omaha, NE. He was a child in WW II Europe. He saw "economy" from the most basic, barter. Came to US and got educated. In his book he has pictures of German people burning bales of money for heat because the paper money would make more heat than the coal it would buy. !! (Post WW I inflation which was planned...)

Most of the world has strict prohibitions on the private ownership of firearms. The US has moved in this direction all my life. As a child, after reading about .303 British in Jack O'Connor's writings I walked into an Army surplus store and the man sold me one cartridge for $0.15... I could have probably gotten 100 for $2.00 or $2.50. Oh well.

If you insist, the names have held up well. Try to find a genuine Walker Colt. I sold a Browning Sweet 16 to an uncle for $125 many years ago. NRA article had them worth between $2,000 and $4,000. Now the Gyrojets and the Rubys and early Astras and the ??? Small money to a museum maybe. Sometimes decent trading stock.

Gun shop was closing out and I got some boxes of bullets for $2/per. Another close out store had Noslers for $3/per. Yes, jacketed bullets, popular calibers in nice new boxes. And powder. I paid $1.97 for my first can of IMR. Today? $25.00 up. (Thru my dealer long ago friend I got some Hodgdon surplus, odd lot, 8 lbs for $30 or4 maybe $35.) I still have the can but empty, not worth much I fear.

If you want the work, study and focus. Colt? Winchester? Early 99 Savage? Browning? Belgium, not Japan? S&W? U.S. military? 1911's? Plenty of options.

At the same time, I would suggest you take Mr. Manarin to heart. Others "sing the same song." You can use money to spend, lend or be an owner. After every crash (like outlawing guns?) if you own 500 solid companies you still own 500 solid companys. (He uses mutual funds...) And when they recall the green money and you turn in 100 green $1's to get a single orange $1... Your shares will still be worth about the same. Sure, a few companys will go bust. But the rest will chug on. You think the ladies are going to give up nose blowing tissue (like Kleenex?) or soap or perfume. And the men have to have tools and jeans and oil and work boots and tech things. Then there is food. Think Nestle (a Swiss company) is going under? People will give up chocolate?

With guys like Obama so popular (by buying votes) [I loved Regan's words but didn't like the results much. We need another but they are scarce. He had been a democrat and Union President 'fore he saw the light. Eisenhower was a registeresd Democrat up to about 20 months before he ran for president... Oh yes, Chicago/ and IL are bankrupt. This is the political home of the man chosen for president???] ... I don't think I would go more than 30% or 40% in guns (and at down cycle prices) and put the rest into widely deversified holdings. Yes a few (I said and he says "few") gold coins. 1/10 ounce. Try to buy first but then if all else fails you pull out the shooting iron and say "giveme"... I can and will use ammo to survive and have the means to use it. But if you choose that lifestyle in all but the most, MOST dire desparation..., there is a reason they said, "save the last bullet for yourself."

LUCK. Happy Trails.

iiranger
May 2, 2013, 04:11 PM
In the history books I heard again and again that President Frank Roosevelt "set the price of gold at $35.00 and ounce." O.K. The part that is not politically correct and not talked about very loudly or often, In the preceding 2 years or so, the government under Mr. President Frank "called in all the U.S. gold coins" at $20.00 an ounce. You turn in a $20 gold piece and you got a $20 paper bill (or 2 tens or 4 5's, etc.).

Now if you had a gun worth $20 gold ... the "hustlers" who understood would come round and say, "I will be more than happy to buy your gun for $20.00 gold but the government took my gold so I have to give you paper..." And shortly you have $20 in paper but it takes $35 in paper to buy an ounce of gold or the gun back...

Mr. Hitler, in Europe got his financing by stealing from Jews... (and killing many). I suppose this is slightly less brutal but any less crooked???

Learn the game. Study hard and constantly and beware "changes" in the rules. You make your own luck.

Then there are "drips." "Dividend reinvestment ?? shares." You buy shares of big companys from the company with no commissions each month/quarter. Different plans. You have to own one share to qualify for the program. And you can buy odd lots... 5 shares, 10 shares, 12 shares another month... You build a holding in a big name company without a lot of commissions. [DEVERSIFY!!!] Go. Make mistakes. Learn. That is life.

Bill4282
May 2, 2013, 04:38 PM
Buy guns worth more than $1000 each, coat with cosmoline, bury in the backyard in a waterproof case, leave a map for your grandchildren to dig up in 50 years. Make a 20% profit over purchase price. I'd rather buy lottery tickets lol

ball3006
May 2, 2013, 09:39 PM
Over the last 10 years or so, I bought a few C&R guns. I have been selling them over the last couple years and with the money I got, I got a new bass boat......Yep, guns are a good investment....chris3

Tipro
May 2, 2013, 09:53 PM
All I would add to this is say that if you really want to invest in firearms, think of it as a method of diversifying your portfolio. There will always be a demand for quality firearms, but it most likely wont beat the Dow. On the flip side, a firearm is something you can actually hold in your hands and see the value, as opposed to a 1/1,000,000,000 share of McDonald's or Apple.

Willie Sutton
May 2, 2013, 09:57 PM
You need to choose carefully, and there's no magic answer.

Some firearms (the vast majority actually) will never appreciate more than a similar amount invested in <pick almost anything>. Mostly they will lose real value over time.


Even "investment grade" firearms, such as Parker Shotguns, or Pre-64 Winchesters, are essentially flat, appreciation wise. They WERE good investments if they were bought "pre-awareness of their value" but now they are on a plateau and barely keep up with inflation.

The trick to investment is to see a bargain before anyone else does. You need to be leading edge. If it's trendy or already known... you are trailing edge. YOU are making the other guy a buck when you buy, but you're not gonna make squat. Yes there are deals out there: A C&R focused collection is a good way to go. Really, if it's less than 50 years old, it's not an investment, it's just another gun. Short term bubbles like the recent AR-15 bubble are anomolies. You cannot count on them. AR-15's are not an investment. Are G Series FAL's that are on the BATFE list investments? Well... sort of. Their price is already high, what appreciation can you expect?

I have made a substantial paper profit in a few areas: Model 98 Mausers, about 100 examples of about 80 different types. Never paid more than $200 for one, none are worth less than $500 and many are worth over $1000. Good luck duplicating that though, as there are no more barrels of Mausers. There are barrels of Mosin Nagants, but guess what? Mosin Nagants will never be worth $1000... :o I tripled the value of a lettered, cased, and beautiful 1906 John Wilkes .450 Nitro Express Double Rifle in two years, bought it before renewed interest in John "Pondoro" Taylor drove Wilkes double rifles thru the roof. Try duplicating that though: Can you pick in advance what will appreciate, and are you able to risk $15K? My current new investment? Something that is on custom order now, will be built in very limited quantities, and is expensive enough at $5000 that very few are buying them. After production ends I expect they will triple in ten years. Know what? Figure out what it is and order one. I could probably do better in the stock market, but this is more fun.


The key to firearms as an investment is FUN. If you do your research, buy carefully, and have a sense of humor it can be fun and slightly profitable. For most people it's a losing deal.


Willie

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Certaindeaf
May 2, 2013, 10:28 PM
Just put it all on black. har

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