What is considered an automatic weapon?


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CSestp
May 1, 2013, 11:29 PM
I was thinking of the slide fire butt stock and how it is making a semi auto into an automatic in less words. Would the same train of thought apply if you were to put device on the trigger (please note on the trigger, not trigger mechanics) of a semi auto rifle that would more or less just increase the rate you could pull the trigger to a point to where it would become an "automatic". Is this legal?

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rondog
May 1, 2013, 11:37 PM
An automatic (full-auto, or machinegun) fires multiple rounds with ONE pull of the trigger. A semi-auto fires one round with each pull of the trigger.

A Slidefire stock still only allows one round per trigger pull, just much faster, as in "bump firing". So it's semi-auto and legal. For now. Until some butthead uses one in another mass shooting, God forbid. Then expect them to go away.

There used to be contraptions that attached to AR triggers and others, to allow essentially the same function. They too were legal, for awhile, then became forbidden.

Arizona_Mike
May 1, 2013, 11:42 PM
The distinction seem to be no spring (Slidefire)=legal, spring (other designs)=illegal (even if previously approved).

Mike

Jim K
May 1, 2013, 11:42 PM
There are several gadgets that do that already on sale. If the shooter manipulates the device and that device pulls the trigger to fire the gun, it would probably be legal. But if by some trick you got it to fire more than once for each trigger pull, whether a full pull or some kind of halfway point, it would almost certainly be illegal. If the device operates the trigger by, say, a motor or clockwork, it would be illegal.

It sounds like you may be thinking of some kind of hammer or striker follow down system, which is combines the worst of all worlds, being not only illegal, but also unreliable and highly dangerous.

Jim

CSestp
May 1, 2013, 11:54 PM
Okay I am going to make me a little project that I think should be legal. Should I make it or at least "blueprint" it in some way then contact ATF for legality questions, or is there (I know the stupidity in this question) a hotline of sorts to call for these types of questions? Yes I know of THE ATF website that I can never make heads or tails of so please do not steer me to that horrific place.

CSestp
May 1, 2013, 11:59 PM
There are several gadgets that do that already on sale. If the shooter manipulates the device and that device pulls the trigger to fire the gun, it would probably be legal. But if by some trick you got it to fire more than once for each trigger pull, whether a full pull or some kind of halfway point, it would almost certainly be illegal. If the device operates the trigger by, say, a motor or clockwork, it would be illegal.

It sounds like you may be thinking of some kind of hammer or striker follow down system, which is combines the worst of all worlds, being not only illegal, but also unreliable and highly dangerous.

Jim

My idea is to hook a cam system up to a/many rifles. I know there are versions of this out there, but I have my own touches on it. With what you said on the motor or clockwork being illegal I think my boat sunk before it sailed.

rondog
May 2, 2013, 12:28 AM
With ammo as expensive and hard to find as it is these days, why do you want to shoot it up faster, with less accuracy? Just sayin'.....

Sam1911
May 2, 2013, 12:40 AM
My idea is to hook a cam system up to a/many rifles. I know there are versions of this out there, but I have my own touches on it. With what you said on the motor or clockwork being illegal I think my boat sunk before it sailed.If it is a motorized mechanism, the BATFE considers the switch that operates the motor to be the trigger. Hence, switching on the trigger makes the gun fire many times. That's a full-automatic firearm.

If you have a crank mechanism that's operated by hand, the BATFE says that whatever portion of one crank motion is required to make the gun fire is ONE operation of the "trigger" so that's ok. Even if the gun fires 8 times every time you spin the crank.

Hooking up multiple guns to such a system is simply more of the same...probably. You don't ever want to have two bullets leaving the gun because of one motion of the trigger.

CSestp
May 2, 2013, 01:12 AM
With ammo as expensive and hard to find as it is these days, why do you want to shoot it up faster, with less accuracy? Just sayin'.....

I'll answer that if you answer a question of mine. What does that have to do with the OP?

Bubbles
May 2, 2013, 11:07 AM
Okay I am going to make me a little project that I think should be legal. Should I make it or at least "blueprint" it in some way then contact ATF for legality questions, or is there (I know the stupidity in this question) a hotline of sorts to call for these types of questions?
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
Firearms Technology Branch
244 Needy Road
Martinsburg, West Virginia 25405
(304) 616-4300

They will want a blueprint AND a sample.

Here's your problem: if you as a non-manufacturer SOT submit a firearm for an evaluation, and they determine that it is a machine gun, you've sent a post-sample that you admitted you made to the feds.

JTW Jr.
May 19, 2013, 08:04 PM
With ammo as expensive and hard to find as it is these days, why do you want to shoot it up faster, with less accuracy? Just sayin'.....

Guess you aint never been to a subgun match.... I have , monthly for the past 17 years straight. I think you would be pretty surprised what someone can do who knows how to shoot and control a FA.

Willie Sutton
May 19, 2013, 10:39 PM
http://www.cabelas.com/product/BMF-Activator/707343.uts



Enjoy.


Willie


.

xxjumbojimboxx
May 20, 2013, 12:58 AM
http://www.cabelas.com/product/BMF-Activator/707343.uts



Enjoy.


Willie


.
^^^ hehehe that says its specifically for .22s, I wonder if it could be put on a 9mm carbine, I dont see why not...

Jim K
May 20, 2013, 01:07 AM
Definitely contact BATFE, by snail mail, and describe, with drawings, what you propose manufacturing. Do NOT make a working model. IF BATFE asks for a working model, ask them if their request will be legal authorization to make the model in case it is deemed to be a machinegun, or would make a semi-auto rifle into a machinegun.

I guarantee it will take a good while to get a response. The administration is slowing down all services to the public, counting on public pressure to get Congress to repeal the sequester.

In the meantime, you can have proper drawings prepared, and scout around for someone who would produce the item (unless you can do it yourself). Again, do not make a working model, just drawings.

Jim

Bubbles
May 20, 2013, 01:15 PM
Definitely contact BATFE, by snail mail, and describe, with drawings, what you propose manufacturing. Do NOT make a working model.
Or find an 07/C2 to make it after he signs an NDA. 07/C2 submits F2, wait for approval, then request the determination. If it's not a machine gun no problem, all the FFL/SOT has to do is send a letter to the ATF asking that the device be removed from the NFRTR as it's not a Title II firearm. If it is a machine gun the FFL/SOT keeps it as a post-sample.

gearchecker
May 25, 2013, 02:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willie Sutton
http://www.cabelas.com/product/BMF-Activator/707343.uts



Enjoy.


Willie


.
^^^ hehehe that says its specifically for .22s, I wonder if it could be put on a 9mm carbine, I dont see why not...


It certainly can be put on a 9mm. Or just about any other firearm you might wish to mount it to, as long as the trigger timing can be set with the device.
I have a Hi-Point 9mm Carbine. That might be fun putting it on and going thru a box or two of ammo with it. But that's part of the conundrum of rapid fire weapons. Being able to afford keeping them fed. If you have a design idea and nobody else has it on the market, it would be worth trying to get the BATFE position on if it's legalor not. If it's legal, you might have something that can make you a few bucks. If you don't look into it, you may be missing a good opportunity to improve your future.

Regards,
Gearchecker

Life During Wartime
May 27, 2013, 12:15 AM
There's a thing called a Hellfire trigger. Have no idea about legalities but it is legal at least someplace in the US.

Prince Yamato
May 27, 2013, 12:17 PM
For what you'll pay in development of this item, you could probably just purchase a Norrell Trigger Group.

MasterSergeantA
May 28, 2013, 02:57 PM
There's a thing called a Hellfire trigger. Have no idea about legalities but it is legal at least someplace in the US.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellfire_trigger
http://www.americanspecialtyammo.com/Tac_Trigger.html

total recoil
May 28, 2013, 05:53 PM
Anyone can design and build a gun with ATF permission. By that I mean construct a reciever. You may not build a machine gun.(fully automatic). You can, however, construct a crank actuated (gatling style weapon) as it is not a machine gun.

MasterSergeantA
May 28, 2013, 06:05 PM
You don't need ATF approval to "build a gun". Individuals may not build automatic weapons since 1986.

jmorris
May 30, 2013, 11:24 PM
Bubbles has the info you need to stay legal.

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