Goofy Armslist deals


PDA






Madcap_Magician
May 2, 2013, 11:11 AM
Besides the usual "Will you trade your Glock/Beretta/Colt/S&W for my Taurus/Hi-Point and $50..."

A week ago I put a Beretta 92A1 up on Armslist and got an e-mail from a guy who offered $575.

I said, sure, let's meet.

So we meet, and he doesn't have a permit to carry or a permit to purchase (required by state law for dealer transfers, required by me personally for personal sales as a matter of due diligence in making sure the buyer is eligible to possess).

He says he works for DHS, and I basically say "Cool, where's your permit?"

And he says it's on his tac vest at home.

I shrug and say, well, let's meet tomorrow and remember to bring it this time.

This morning I get an e-mail that says he's not going to buy the gun because he's a cop and they don't need to have a permit, and he "doesn't feel comfortable buying from someone who doesn't know the law."

To the best of my knowledge, there is no exemption from the permit requirement in state law. I am a CCW instructor and have both thoroughly and repeatedly read our state laws on carry and purchase of handguns and taken a Criminal Code class.

So I sent him a nice little e-mail telling him that there is no permit requirement for ANY private sale in MN, but that I require it personally, and that he never identified himself as a sworn law enforcement officer and I wouldn't have cared if he had.

Now he's all squirrelly and I've lost a sale, which I needed to make a purchase myself this weekend.

>.<

Anybody else got fun Armslist stories?

If you enjoyed reading about "Goofy Armslist deals" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Sam1911
May 2, 2013, 11:25 AM
While I understand where you're coming from, someone asking for more than the law requires might just nix a deal with me, too. Especially if you weren't completely up front about that prior to me driving all the way out to meet you.

One main reason a lot of folks have for going with private sales in the first place is to get out from under the nanny state scrutiny (and even your own personal facsimile of it). Getting all the way to the meeting place and finding out the seller still wants "your papers please" is a little infuriating.

(Of course if you did tell him ahead of time, it's his mistake. He should have bailed on your deal when you listed your demands).

At any rate, I'd sure not be calling him an idiot.

InkEd
May 2, 2013, 11:25 AM
I'm sure there are a few.

au01st
May 2, 2013, 11:26 AM
Did you list in the ad that you would be requiring a permit?


Sold a rifle a few months ago. After numerous pictures and e-mail exchanges we agreed on a price and meeting location/time. Got there, he looked it over and asked if I would take $20 less than the agreed upon price. I said no thanks, closed the case and started to load it up. He asked if I was really going to lose the sale over just $20, and I said that it was on principle. He said OK, he would purchase at the agreed upon price. I said that the price was now $20 higher. He said that wasn't fair. I asked if he was really going to let the rifle go over just $20 (pretty much verbatim on how he said it when he tried to lower the price).

I used the extra $20 to treat myself to lunch. No permit required for long guns in my state, and if this person was a felon, not sure a Marlin Model 60 would be their first choice.

wtr100
May 2, 2013, 11:40 AM
there was a huge to-do in NE IL where the police were tryint to run a sting using Armslist. The police got upset when their mark wouldn't bite

Extra care when going through ArmsList these days is in order

morcey2
May 2, 2013, 12:07 PM
Before ksl.com (local tv station with formerly awesome classfieds) shut down their guns and ammunition section, I was looking to see if there was anything interesting for sale. While searching for mausers, I saw an awfully familiar-looking gun for sale. It was my gun sitting on my couch. It was a picture that I had taken of it when I bought it to post on a couple of milsurp collectors sites.

After I contacted him and, while playing dumb (which comes quite naturally for some reason), asked him about the rifle and verified that he was semi-local, he wanted to meet me at my house to complete the transaction. He was very curious about other guns I might have. Contacted the local police and talked to them about it. They didn't want to commit anything to it at the time, but one of them called the seller to set up a meeting on his end with the intention of passing the info on to the police up there. He wouldn't meet in a store parking lot, which is what I usually do, but insisted on coming to the buyers home. Something must have spooked him because he quit answering his phone after that. I did like his description of the rifle. It sounded much better than the one in the picture. :)

I notified ksl about it and they took down his ads and seem to have closed his account, but nothing else came of it. If he went to the address that the officer gave him, he would have showed up at an alfalfa field in the middle of no where.

The only other one was when I met up with a guy to look at a mosin and one of my former co workers, who I introduced to shooting some years earlier, showed up at the same time to buy a soviet SKS from the same seller.

There is pretty solid evidence that Bloomberg et. al. were targeting the ksl classifieds to try to conduct questionable transations to push their agenda. I don't think this was one of those because they're usually on the buying end, not the selling end.

Matt

Reloadron
May 2, 2013, 12:11 PM
My thinking on this runs exactly with that of Sam1911. Unless you wanted to keep some form of personal record of the transaction why ask for more than is required by law for your location? If you want a detailed record of the transaction transfer to a FFL and let them deal with it.

@au01st

Since the price was agreed upon I can understand your point. If someone is selling a gun, be it arms list or another source and they are firm on price it should be so stated. You did just that based on your post. However, I did buy a rifle last year where the seller was asking $975. I looked at the gun and offered $900 which the seller was free to take or leave. The seller took the $900 and I took my new rifle home.

Ron

HOOfan_1
May 2, 2013, 12:24 PM
My thinking on this runs exactly with that of Sam1911. Unless you wanted to keep some form of personal record of the transaction why ask for more than is required by law for your location? If you want a detailed record of the transaction transfer to a FFL and let them deal with it.

@au01st

Since the price was agreed upon I can understand your point. If someone is selling a gun, be it arms list or another source and they are firm on price it should be so stated. You did just that based on your post. However, I did buy a rifle last year where the seller was asking $975. I looked at the gun and offered $900 which the seller was free to take or leave. The seller took the $900 and I took my new rifle home.

Ron

Yeah, I haven't seen anything I would consider idiotic in either of those stories...

Seems like both parties were unwilling to negotiate in either.

Good old Rashomon effect I guess

Blackstone
May 2, 2013, 12:29 PM
While it may be asking for more than the law requires, a bit of diligence in who you sell to surely should be encouraged. It's not like he intends to keep a record. I do hope the OP did mention beforehand that he would want to see a carry permit.

au01st
May 2, 2013, 12:46 PM
Yeah, I haven't seen anything I would consider idiotic in either of those stories...

Seems like both parties were unwilling to negotiate in either.

Good old Rashomon effect I guess

Really? I consider giving up an extra $20 to be idiotic, but they say a fool and his money are soon parted. And I didn't say there was no negotiation, there was beforehand. I came down on the money and kept some of the accessories I had originally listed, so the price was agreed upon after the buyer got all the pictures he desired. There was nothing called out on the gun at the time of the meeting, just him showing up with cash hoping I'd take less.

I guess I misread the term "goofy" and "fun". That's the only real story I have where I didn't just show up, make the exchange, make small talk, and part ways.

ngnrd
May 2, 2013, 12:54 PM
Unless there's an agreement to meet and discuss/negotiate, the terms of the sale should be agreed to before the meeting ever takes place.

If you didn't tell him all of your "personal requirements" for the sale, it's not the buyer's fault the transaction didn't happen. If those terms were discussed before the meeting took place, and the buyer refused to meet those terms, too bad for them.

Madcap_Magician
May 2, 2013, 12:56 PM
I did mention in our e-mail chain (twice) that I needed to see a permit to purchase or to carry. Before we met at all.

The first time we met, he said he actually did have it at home, he had just forgotten it.

The e-mail came after that.

And it wasn't like he'd driven halfway across the state. He lives in town and met me at his SO's place of business.

And my terms are more than the law requires, yes, but I have yet to buy or sell from a private person in Minnesota over the course of maybe ten transactions in five years who did NOT need to see a permit, so it's not exactly unheard of.

CoRoMo
May 2, 2013, 01:01 PM
Did you list in the ad that you would be requiring a permit?
This... or did you at least tell him in your email that you were going to need a load of his personal information and documentation?
...got an e-mail from a guy who offered $575.

I said, sure, let's meet.

So we meet, and he doesn't have a permit...
You don't indicate so there, and if you didn't tell him to bring all of his papers, then I can't blame the guy for not wanting to see you again. It all could have been avoided had he known what he was in for before making the drive.

--------------------------------------

ETA: Ah, you posted while I was typing.

Certaindeaf
May 2, 2013, 01:05 PM
Sounds like the guy was a goof.

Madcap_Magician
May 2, 2013, 01:13 PM
I am a little surprised that so many are hostile to what I consider due diligence in personal sales. Every transaction I've made with THR members in MN has been done the same way on my end or on theirs. *shrug*

I did not make clear in the ad that I required a permit to purchase or carry. I did say that in the e-mails before we met, and have adjusted my Armslist postings to reflect that requirement.

It's not as though I am photocopying his driver's license and permit information or even writing down his name. I just want to see that he is who he says he is and that he has a permit, which means he passed a NICS check. I consider that doing my part to abide by MN 624.7141, which forbids transfers to anyone whom you have reason to believe was denied a permit or is otherwise ineligable to possess a handgun or assault weapon.

Now, if people want to say "Well, he never said he was a felon, and I don't recall seeing his face on a wanted poster" and call it good, that's their business, but I feel responsible for being a little more proactive than that.

At any rate, I'd sure not be calling him an idiot.

Fair enough. Edited.

ngnrd
May 2, 2013, 01:24 PM
I had to go back and re-read the thread. But, I still don't see any hostility in it. Sure, there are opinions and questions about what exactly happened. But the OP was a little ambiguous about the details.

CoRoMo
May 2, 2013, 01:29 PM
...I have yet to buy or sell from a private person in Minnesota over the course of maybe ten transactions in five years who did NOT need to see a permit...
-
...what I consider due diligence in personal sales. Every transaction I've made with THR members in MN has been done the same way on my end or on theirs.
...
I consider that doing my part...
Zoogster once posted something very well that might be all I can add here for you...
Want to find the largest number of anti-gun people? Go to places that have had extreme firearm restrictions for a generation or two.
Some will be a little more for or against, but the majority will eventually be near the set standard.

Unfortunately it proves that people in general are easy to control. It is easy to make the population approve or disapprove of ideas or freedoms just by forcing them to adhere to one for a generation or two.
I realize that you feel that it is your responsibility, but I suppose that in other parts of the country buyers and sellers might look at it as nosy, overstepping, paranoid, NOYB, etc. rather than being 'proactive'.

hth

Mileage certainly varies.

mrvco
May 2, 2013, 01:34 PM
Someone who claims to work for DHS not wanting to be ID'd...? :scrutiny:

Bruno2
May 2, 2013, 01:36 PM
I personally don't understand why people trying to conduct a private sale are asking about papers and ID. Go put it in consignment at your LGS if you are not comfortable selling a gun to a private citizen or put on the ad that you are requiring an FFL transfer of the weapon.

Yrs ago we used to be able to list firearms in our local newspaper classifieds. I had a guy call (back when I lived with my parents) about the gun when I was at school. My mother took the call and said he wont be here until after 4 pm. The guy calling about the gun exclaimed that "he needed it now!". My mom said we cant help you until after 4pm. So when I got home my mom told me the story. I thought to myself "I hope the guy doesn't call back b/c this is sounding a little shady". He never called back , but that was one of the only times I ever thought about grilling someone over before considering selling them a gun.

Sam1911
May 2, 2013, 01:43 PM
Zoogster once posted something very well that might be all I can add here for you...
Want to find the largest number of anti-gun people? Go to places that have had extreme firearm restrictions for a generation or two.
Some will be a little more for or against, but the majority will eventually be near the set standard.

Unfortunately it proves that people in general are easy to control. It is easy to make the population approve or disapprove of ideas or freedoms just by forcing them to adhere to one for a generation or two.

You should read back through some of our threads about carrying guns in bars and restaurants that serve alcohol! As many states do have prohibitions against that, we often see that even the most sold-out "gunny" members here, who are from those states, are SHOCKED that anyone would do so, or would be opposed to laws prohibiting it.

It's like they grew up under that regime, unconsciously adopted its views, and have never examined whether their fears are founded on logic or fact.

Mention a couple of THR Mods sipping ales in a bar with guns on their hips and their heads are like to explode! :D

holdencm9
May 2, 2013, 01:52 PM
So you didn't mention it in the ad, but you DID mention it in the emails (apparently twice) and he failed to bring it, says it's on his "tac vest" at home, and he also didn't bring any other credentials to show he is LEO. Then the next day drops a line about how he shouldn't need it because he is (allegedly) DHS/LEO, and doesn't feel comfortable buying from someone who doesn't know the law.

Ha!

Definitely seems sketchy. I don't think there is a p2p for law enforcement, seeing as how they wouldn't be in LE if they were prohibited to posses, but I would expect some kind of creds. Otherwise they are just blowing smoke.

Madcap_Magician
May 2, 2013, 02:00 PM
Zoogster once posted something very well that might be all I can add here for you...

Quote:
Want to find the largest number of anti-gun people? Go to places that have had extreme firearm restrictions for a generation or two.
Some will be a little more for or against, but the majority will eventually be near the set standard.

Unfortunately it proves that people in general are easy to control. It is easy to make the population approve or disapprove of ideas or freedoms just by forcing them to adhere to one for a generation or two.

I realize that you feel that it is your responsibility, but I suppose that in other parts of the country buyers and sellers might look at it as nosy, overstepping, paranoid, NOYB, etc. rather than being 'proactive'.

hth

Mileage certainly varies.


Hmm, that's definitely a good point. I am not sure if I would ever feel comfortable selling a gun to a stranger with no permit to carry, but I definitely remember the massive debates about whether or not CCW should be allowed in churches or bars or liquor stores, and it was surprising how many CCW advocates thought the answer should be "no" at first.

Minnesota is a very liberal place, and the gun rights laws we do have are both fairly recent and hard-won.

I personally don't understand why people trying to conduct a private sale are asking about papers and ID. Go put it in consignment at your LGS if you are not comfortable selling a gun to a private citizen or put on the ad that you are requiring an FFL transfer of the weapon.

Yrs ago we used to be able to list firearms in our local newspaper classifieds. I had a guy call (back when I lived with my parents) about the gun when I was at school. My mother took the call and said he wont be here until after 4 pm. The guy calling about the gun exclaimed that "he needed it now!". My mom said we cant help you until after 4pm. So when I got home my mom told me the story. I thought to myself "I hope the guy doesn't call back b/c this is sounding a little shady". He never called back , but that was one of the only times I ever thought about grilling someone over before considering selling them a gun.

I was already a little hinky about this guy because he wouldn't really say what he did for DHS, and he said he was interested in my Beretta as a new duty gun. I am not aware of any sworn and armed positions with DHS where you can just pick a new gun and carry whatever you want, so that was a little weird. But I figured maybe he was some sort of contractor armed guard working with DHS for something- for which he would have needed a permit to carry anyway.

Then he flat-out claimed he was a DHS federal law enforcement officer, but he couldn't tell me what secret squirrel stuff he did.

Also, he had a plain Uncle Mike's duty rig with him, but none of the usual accoutrements thereof- an empty double mag pouch, empty cuff pouch, empty ASP holster, empty pepper spray holder.

Honestly saying he worked for DHS wouldn't have made me wonder, but all the goofy little details that he kept telling me but not telling me made me wonder if all his claims were on the level.

Lying about what you do for a living doesn't mean I won't sell you a gun, but it didn't seem to add up to me.

I think the obvious reason I didn't want to put it on consignment was because I actually wanted it to sell sometime in the near future and get more than half my money back out of it. I have no problems working outside an FFL, but I just don't feel comfortable selling to a total stranger with no permit, especially one who tells me stories that I find very hard to believe.

Again, private sellers requiring a permit to purchase or carry is almost de rigeur in MN, so I guess it just never occurred to me that would bother someone. If I wanted to do it that way myself, I certainly wouldn't be capital-letter-e-mail offended if someone asked for it anyway.

Sam1911
May 2, 2013, 02:31 PM
Well, based on all that, I wouldn't be real broken up about it falling through. :)

doc2rn
May 2, 2013, 03:43 PM
So based on your supposition, because I dont have a CCW because I have moved three times in 4 yrs, I shouldn't be able to do a F2F transaction?:barf::scrutiny::cool::confused::eek:

BemidjiDweller
May 2, 2013, 04:03 PM
To the best of my knowledge, there is no exemption from the permit requirement in state law. I am a CCW instructor and have both thoroughly and repeatedly read our state laws on carry and purchase of handguns and taken a Criminal Code class.

:banghead::banghead::banghead:
Please, tell me your name/company so I know to never go to one of your classes. MN has a Permit To Carry, not a CCW. You should know that if you "have both thoroughly and repeatedly read our state laws on carry and purchase of handguns and taken a Criminal Code class".
:cuss:

allaroundhunter
May 2, 2013, 04:06 PM
Maybe it's just me, but if I showed up to sell a firearm at a prearranged location, with a prearranged price and the buyer starts to ask if I will take less for it then a couple red flags would go up...

Bruno2
May 2, 2013, 04:21 PM
Some people just like to negotiate prices. That's why I never agree to pay a certain price before I look at the item. I could show up and discover that your idea of very good condition is quite a bit different than mine.Also I don't want to forfeit the ability to make a lower offer. When somebody lists an item as firm on price I wont make a counter offer I will either take it or shake it.

rugerdude
May 2, 2013, 04:22 PM
Once a guy was meeting me to buy a Taurus revolver. He drove a considerable distance to meet me and kept using little smiley faces in his text messages. That was super creepy to me, because that's just not something two men do in text messages to one another, but he ended up paying asking price with no fuss and I gave him some free ammo in thanks for driving an hour to meet. I remember he was smoking a cigar when he pulled up and I just couldn't help but think of the old Freud quote "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."

I had a guy meet me to buy a Walther P22. Turns out he got a speeding ticket on the way to meet which was over a hundred bucks. I immediately thought he was only saying that to get me to feel sorry and come down on the price, but sure enough he paid in full.

Also had a guy mention to me in an Email that he was not a resident of the state we were in. I was glad that he offered that information since I didn't ask, but nevertheless I could not legally make the sale and he was understanding.


I always repeat the same thing right before I meet someone. "Okay so just everything is clear for both of us, you're buying my ____ for the amount of _____ dollars and we're meeting at ____ at ___ time" It probably sounds like I'm trying to set up some kind of a sting operation, but it's my defense against "Alright here's your $400" when the asking price is $450.

anothernewb
May 2, 2013, 04:29 PM
Due to the crazy liability and crap in MN laws dealing with a handgun. I agree with the OP on wanting to see at least a permit to purchase or carry card. If the story related was true, I'd have bailed selling to that person as well.

to me that guy looked and quacked like a duck...

rugerdude
May 2, 2013, 04:43 PM
Another thing I have noticed is that you really do get increased interest in guns by leaving a phone number, but generally it's not serious buyers.

Here's my favorite text conversation:

Them: send pics

Me: Which gun did you want pictures of? I have multiple guns listed.

Them: All of them

Me: I have pictures up with the ads, is there something specific you want to see?

Them: Just send pics of all the guns you have up

Me: I'm not interested in doing business with you, good day.


Also, $700 seems to be the point where you just cannot get cash out of people. They'll trade offer you to death, but getting more than $700 in cash has never worked for me. It doesn't seem to be a pricing thing either. My ads stay up only for a few days generally (best was 17 minutes) because I like to actually sell guns instead of just tell everybody how much I think it's worth, but any time I have a higher dollar gun I usually only get trade offers. The sub $350 market on Armslist is HOT though.

CoRoMo
May 2, 2013, 05:18 PM
I sold an LC9 not long ago and had a dork keep trying to haggle me down via email. I sold the pistol a day or two later but I kept playing with this weirdo, assuming from his vocabulary that he was a gang-banger. I let him think that he had worked me all the way down to $60... for a like new LC9. When he wanted to meet to complete the deal I made my insults very clear in a final email and told him that someone bought the pistol at asking price days before. It was a humorous waste of time.

Salmoneye
May 2, 2013, 05:35 PM
You should read back through some of our threads about carrying guns in bars and restaurants that serve alcohol! As many states do have prohibitions against that, we often see that even the most sold-out "gunny" members here, who are from those states, are SHOCKED that anyone would do so, or would be opposed to laws prohibiting it.

It's like they grew up under that regime, unconsciously adopted its views, and have never examined whether their fears are founded on logic or fact.

Mention a couple of THR Mods sipping ales in a bar with guns on their hips and their heads are like to explode!

Indeed I HAVE noticed...

I have lived in Vermont my entire life...I find many beliefs by otherwise hard-core 2A proponents on these forums to be antithetical to my thinking and experiences; bar/restaurant carry being only one facet of these differences in thinking...

It makes me sincerely wonder if they would believe as I do if they had lived here forever...

MedWheeler
May 2, 2013, 05:47 PM
I consider that doing my part to abide by MN 624.7141, which forbids transfers to anyone whom you have reason to believe was denied a permit or is otherwise ineligable to possess a handgun or assault weapon.

The law forbids transfers to anyone whom you have reason to believe was denied a permit or is otherwise... blah, blah.

I understand the CYA-aspect, but to presume everyone who shows up to buy a gun is ineligible until otherwise proven to be eligible smacks of some of the very philosophies we as gun-rights supporters ardently oppose when we resist things like registration, permitting, and UBC laws.

In fact, in further review of the law's text, it appears that the burden is even greater than "reason to believe", but requires actual knowledge.

624.7141 TRANSFER TO INELIGIBLE PERSON.
Subdivision 1.Transfer prohibited.

A person is guilty of a gross misdemeanor who intentionally transfers a pistol or semiautomatic military-style assault weapon to another if the person knows that the transferee:

(1) has been denied a permit to carry under section 624.714 because the transferee is not eligible under section 624.713 to possess a pistol or semiautomatic military-style assault weapon;

(2) has been found ineligible to possess a pistol or semiautomatic military-style assault weapon by a chief of police or sheriff as a result of an application for a transferee permit or a transfer report; or

(3) is disqualified under section 624.713 from possessing a pistol or semiautomatic military-style assault weapon.
Subd. 2.Felony.

A violation of this section is a felony if the transferee possesses or uses the weapon within one year after the transfer in furtherance of a felony crime of violence.
Subd. 3.Subsequent eligibility.

This section is not applicable to a transfer to a person who became eligible to possess a pistol or semiautomatic military-style assault weapon under section 624.713 after the transfer occurred but before the transferee used or possessed the weapon in furtherance of any crime.


Again, I do understand any desire to require what it takes to assure a "clear-conscience" transfer, and have considered that, were I to want to part with any of my guns, I would also consider asking for a carry license (these are pretty common here.)


As an aside, not being in MN, what are the restrictions of the transfer of a firearm that doesn't fall into the above categories to someone who does (such as a shotgun or bolt-action rifle?) Just curious.

itchy1
May 2, 2013, 07:33 PM
I've had a couple people try and low ball me by coming off as an expert. They are looking to score at prices that would have been cheap 10 years ago. The more common frustration I've had with Armslist are the idiots that claim that they want to make the purchase but then never respond to my follow up email agreeing to sell at their price. This happens way too often in my area so I've all but given up on it. I've had much better success selling on gunbroker. Buying on GB is an entirely different matter.

rugerdude
May 2, 2013, 07:54 PM
Some of the responders on armslist are actually just selling your email address to span sites. Never use a real email address or one that lists your full name.

I have a spam email with a fake name for use with armslist. The address theif emails usually look something like "Hey do you still have your gun for sale?" Once you respond they have your address and you won't hear from them again.

And of course, if a deal looks too good to be true, it probably is. Check for the other listings by that user and more than likely they'll be selling in several different states.

Shockingly, I've never had too many lowballers. Also, I don't deal with people who can't type emails at a highschool level.

justice06rr
May 2, 2013, 09:47 PM
I don't even deal with Armslist anymore. Too many retards on there asking for way too much or lowballing you for your item.

allaroundhunter
May 2, 2013, 09:55 PM
I just started a thread in the autoloader section about a ridiculous Armslist sale.... Guy is asking over $3 billion for a Springfield 1911

Bruno2
May 2, 2013, 09:57 PM
His wife must have told him he has to sell it.

rgwalt
May 3, 2013, 12:51 AM
I never list my phone number, all my deals must be completed via email, then I will exchange phone numbers when we arrange a place & time to meet. I also do a recap of the deal to make sure both parties are 100% clear on what is being bought/sold/traded. The make, model, and accessory/ammo list all get recapped.

I had a guy try to low ball me in person for a pistol. He said "are you sure $XXX is the best you can do?" I said "Yes, I held the gun for you for a week, and I could have had it sold twice over. I'm happy to get in touch with one of the other guys if you aren't interested." He paid me the money...

I get a low of low ballers. My favorite was when I got an offer that was $150 low for a LNIB Beretta 92FS. Not terrible during non-panic times, but a couple of months ago you couldn't find that gun anywhere. Well, I ended up getting a full price offer, and the low-baller kept trying to bargin. I told him that I had a deal made with someone else, then he went on whining about how much he wanted the gun, blah blah blah. I could have sold that 92FS about 10 times over that night before I pulled the ad down. I had one guy offer to come to my house with cash that night if I would sell the gun to him as opposed to the other person. Crazy.

Overall I've had extremely good luck selling through Armslist, THR, TexasGunTrader, and TexasGunTalk.

Madcap_Magician
May 3, 2013, 08:16 AM
Please, tell me your name/company so I know to never go to one of your classes. MN has a Permit To Carry, not a CCW. You should know that if you "have both thoroughly and repeatedly read our state laws on carry and purchase of handguns and taken a Criminal Code class".

I tend not to get caught up in the distinction. This is a distinction without a difference. Some states call it PTC, some call it CCW, some call it LTCF, but in a general sense it means all the same thing, and in a forum with members from all 50 states and around the world, a general term seems to work well, especially given that CCW is the most common.

I have found that students who get caught up in semantics and think they know everything are disruptive to the rest of the class. Complaining about this is akin to moaning about someone calling a non-Colt 1911 with a 4.25" barrel a Commander. Everyone knows what you mean.

My name is Sam Rudolph, and the business name is Be Safe With Guns. If it makes you feel better, I do not teach there often, but both of the other instructors will probably interchange the terms as well.

So based on your supposition, because I dont have a CCW because I have moved three times in 4 yrs, I shouldn't be able to do a F2F transaction?

No one said that.

1. I got my CCW permit in college and moved four times in three years. Moving had nothing to do with the permit. I called and updated my address with the Sheriff's Department as required and paid my $10 fee each time to get an updated permit card.
2. I see no reason to restrict your ability to do a face-to-face transaction. That's none of my business. But if you don't have a permit to carry, I will restrict you from doing a face-to-face transaction with ME. That's all. There are plenty of sellers who will be happy to sell you a gun without a permit to carry. I am not one of them. I don't think having a permit should be a legal obligation- there are already too many laws as it is. But I do it as a matter of choice and my right as a seller to set my own terms. This infringes not at all on any rights you have.

I understand the CYA-aspect, but to presume everyone who shows up to buy a gun is ineligible until otherwise proven to be eligible smacks of some of the very philosophies we as gun-rights supporters ardently oppose when we resist things like registration, permitting, and UBC laws.

I think the distinction is that I only do it as a matter of best practice for my own sales and my own peace of mind. I do not support any law making it mandatory. There's a big difference between someone who does something he thinks is right and someone who wants to make it legally mandatory for YOU to do something because he thinks it's right.

Again, I do understand any desire to require what it takes to assure a "clear-conscience" transfer, and have considered that, were I to want to part with any of my guns, I would also consider asking for a carry license (these are pretty common here.)

As an aside, not being in MN, what are the restrictions of the transfer of a firearm that doesn't fall into the above categories to someone who does (such as a shotgun or bolt-action rifle?) Just curious.

Permits are not super common in MN, about 2.5% to 3% of Minnesotans have one. I think the count is about 80,000 right now. But as a proportion of Minnesota Armslist buyers, in my experience most have a permit to carry already or have gotten a permit to purchase (which is valid for a year in MN, so it's not like you have to go to the PD to get a new one for every single gun).

Long guns that don't fall into the MN legal definition of a "semiautomatic military-style assault weapon" can be transferred without a permit to purchase. It's been so long since I bought a gun that didn't fall into that category that I honestly can't remember what else happened besides filling out the 4473.

Well, based on all that, I wouldn't be real broken up about it falling through.

I'm not really, but there's this THR thread about a Gemini Custom SP101... and it's making me itch because I had a line on a 3" Gemini SP101 up in Minneapolis and had the trade all worked out except I needed the cash from the Beretta sale. :(

holdencm9
May 3, 2013, 09:18 AM
Long guns that don't fall into the MN legal definition of a "semiautomatic military-style assault weapon" can be transferred without a permit to purchase. It's been so long since I bought a gun that didn't fall into that category that I honestly can't remember what else happened besides filling out the 4473.

Pretty much nothing besides a license, or other way to prove you are an in-state resident, IIRC. That's about all I'd ask for if I were to sell one too.

I think asking for the permit to purchase just takes a lot of the burden off of the seller to make a judgment call. For instance, if some sketchy looking dude comes up to buy it, or makes some comments you find odd, then him not having the p2p makes it a lot easier to decline the sale. If he has one then you can sleep easier at night, that at least the local PD deems him okay to have a handgun. Some people are very comfortable canceling the sale last minute, others may not be.

And yeah, the law makes the burden of knowledge pretty high. If you suspect something is up with a guy, you can't be held liable if he does turn out to be a criminal, but from a conscience perspective, it won't do you much good if he turns around and uses it in a crime. And you never know what an overzealous prosecutor might do. Even if you were within the law, I'd rather not fight that.

I am most definitely against p2p system and UBC, don't get me wrong. But where they have the p2p system in place, I see nothing wrong with requesting one when making a private sale. I'd rather they just do away with p2p's entirely and open up NICS to everyone, but don't make it mandatory. I think freedom of choice is key. I'd like to be able to call up NICS when selling to stranger, but I don't believe in UBC because I think I should be able to sell anything to anyone (private property) without gov't interference, and of course if I were to sell to a friend or even casual acquaintance, a NICS check being required seems absurd.

PS How you liking that snow, Madcap?!?

HOOfan_1
May 3, 2013, 09:59 AM
I tend not to get caught up in the distinction. This is a distinction without a difference. Some states call it PTC, some call it CCW, some call it LTCF, but in a general sense it means all the same thing, and in a forum with members from all 50 states and around the world, a general term seems to work well, especially given that CCW is the most common.


Yeah I had some people crawl all over me on OpenCarry.org because I said something about a Virginia CCW Permit. Ours is a CHP (concealed Handgun Permit)

Woop dee doo

CoRoMo
May 3, 2013, 10:24 AM
I had a guy try to low ball me in person for a pistol. He said "are you sure $XXX is the best you can do?"
They are going with the adage that 'it never hurts to ask'.

When someone shows up to buy from me, and say the price is $200 but they ask, "Will you take $190 just so that I feel like I'm getting a deal?", I tell them... "Not if you brought all two-hundred".

morcey2
May 3, 2013, 10:44 AM
His wife must have told him he has to sell it.
We see that locally on occasion. There was an M48 up for sale at least in the picture, but the description was very convoluted and described a mosin. The seller was asking for close to $1000 for it, which was completely absurd for either one. I sent him an email to him explaining what he had and what he could probably get for it.

His response thanked me for my info, but he would leave it as it is. His wife wanted him to sell it because it scared her. He relented and said he would list it for two weeks, but if it didn't sell he could keep it. So he was going to make sure it didn't sell. A little passive-agressive, but he got to keep his gun. :)

Matt

Speedgoat
May 3, 2013, 01:51 PM
I understand you, I posted up a rifle for 'FTF SALE LOCALLY' and got a email from a dude all the way in Florida. I figured I may as well entertain it, since he was willing to pay asking price, fees, and shipping, but let him know that it would take me a day or two to figure out the legal way to ship it, consult my local FFL, etc. I got a e-mail back and he was so darned pushy, almost bully-like, that I decided I'm done with trying to sell on there. Think I'll try to do a local gun shop consignment deal next.

Madcap_Magician
May 3, 2013, 02:56 PM
PS How you liking that snow, Madcap?!?

Be quiet, you. :fire:

It was so wet and heavy that it clogged the impeller on my snowblower and snapped the shear bolts that hold it to the drive shaft. I didn't have any spares, so I was two hours late to work because the buses were all stuck or in ditches, and I had to finish shoveling by hand. And then again when I got home because it was still blizzarding.

I am going to have to remember that zillion dollar Armslist sale trick!

Elkins45
May 3, 2013, 09:12 PM
I've never had anything like that, but apparently agreeing to meet me to buy a gun carries a measurable risk that you will be involved in a serious car wreck. Twice I have reached a deal to sell guns on Armslist only to have the buyer back out on the day of the sale claiming they can't purchase it anymore because they were involved in car wrecks the night before. One was particularly annoying because I drove 30 minutes put of my way.

orphanedcowboy
May 3, 2013, 09:51 PM
I put a ad last fall looking for a 391, got everything under the sun except what I was wanting. Had a guy contact me about one he had with a bulged barrel. He sent pictures but they were so small and blurry, I really didn't know what I was getting if we made a deal. He said a barrel was $500 and if I'd give him $250 I could have it. I agreed and thought if nothing else I could part it out.

It showed up and was a Gold Parallel Target, score!

But most everything I have been offered has been junk otherwise.

Lex Luthier
May 3, 2013, 10:03 PM
Trying to pinch a twenty from a done deal is cheap and bs. I would have just walked away on principle also, though PTP or PTC would have been necessary to complete the transaction. This clown appeared to talk too much talk as it was.

Cheap is as cheap does.

hAkron
May 3, 2013, 10:26 PM
I've done many meet-ups through Armslist. Every time I have done ALL of the negotiations prior to the meet up. Unless the item is other than described, we already have an agreement on price. I would be seriously irritated if the seller still wanted to dicker once I arrived. I've had them bring along some ammo or a holster to see if I was also interested, but the original deal is separate and binding (in gentleman's way...or gentlewoman's way) as long everybody has been open and honest.

If I show up and I see that something has been changed, or is not as described, or purposely hidden from view, then I'm probably going to pass on the deal. If I failed to clear something up and it's a $20 mistake, then I eat it.

I bought a S&W model 15 with a box. It was a good deal for the gun. The box however was the wrong era, wrong color, and the label with the serial number was missing. I went ahead with the deal because factoring the box out of the deal, it was still a fair exchange.

Bruno2
May 3, 2013, 10:27 PM
Even with pics and the seller swearing up and down that the gun is in like new condition I am not going to commit to a price w/o laying my yes on it to inspect it. I have looked at too many cars with multiple pictures and a seller swearing by its condition that didn't turn out to be what I thought was good condition. My version of near mint and a lot of others version usually turn out to be two different things.

hAkron
May 4, 2013, 09:33 AM
Anytime I've ever sold anything online, I honest to a fault describing anything that may be wrong with the item. You know you are going to have to meet the person, and they are going to have your private contact info, so you might as well put all of your cards on the table up front. If both parties have done that, then there should be no need for further negotiation. You don't have the best negotiating leverage after you've already made a deal. If there is something wrong, then by all means, but if the item is as described, then you should honor your end of the bargain.

Bruno2
May 4, 2013, 10:58 AM
I am not making an offer on nothing that I haven't seen in person. Call me crazy, but that when the rubber meets the road.

Bruno2
May 4, 2013, 01:44 PM
Good for him!

TennJed
May 4, 2013, 08:31 PM
I am not making an offer on nothing that I haven't seen in person. Call me crazy, but that when the rubber meets the road.
There should not be a problem with this as long as it is clear before you meet. Do whatever makes you feel comfortable asking as it is discussed before hand. Want to see I'd, fine just agree on it before hand. Want to leave the price open to negotiation once you meet, fine, just be clear of this before the meeting takes place

Bruno2
May 4, 2013, 11:19 PM
Why? It's still within the law in most states.

TennJed
May 5, 2013, 12:06 AM
Any seller who refuses to confirm ID, provide bill of sale, etc, should send up a huge red flag to a potential buyer.
Why? Not illegal in most places. I have no problem doing it if a seller ask, but I understand why some would not want to. Show a guy I don't know my drivers license and address, then make small talk about my job. Who is to say that guy want come over and rob you while you are at work.

Heck, asking for it could be a red flag. Why do you need a person's name and address? Can you tell if they are a felon by checking ID?

TennJed
May 5, 2013, 01:46 AM
I'm in Tulsa. We've got the big wanamacher show. The ATF has been known to go to private sellers and say, "Now, I'm not from this state, but you'll still sell to me, right?"

They're trying to screw people over. And I wouldn't put it past them to respond to Armslist ads with the same method.

You're entitled to conduct business any way you choose. I choose to, whether I'm buying or selling, let the other party know that I'm simply going to look at his driver's license to confirm he's a resident of OK. He's free to decline or accept. I've only had one person decline.

I don't write anything down. I just look at it to confirm he is who he says he is. If I'm buying, then he'll give me a bill of sale with the date, serial number, purchase price, etc. There aren't any addresses written down.
That is a fine approach to take, but you said earlier that anyone not willing to do so should be a huge red flag and I disagree. Remember the guy on the other end doesn't know you either and may wonder why you want his info. I can understand why you would want to ask, but I also understand why someone would decline. Neither is cause for a red flag or concern. Also it is a lot of difference in someone telling you up front they are from out of state (like the sting op) and not showing ids

thorazine
May 5, 2013, 07:08 AM
Any seller who refuses to confirm ID, provide bill of sale, etc, should send up a huge red flag to a potential buyer.

Also get fingerprints and a DNA sample to play it safe! :D

Liberty1776
May 5, 2013, 02:59 PM
Hey Madcap -

I live in MN too. On Armslist sales I also require seeing a permit to purchase and license, just to try to cya, against selling to a sting, or a felon. I don't keep info, I just want to see it. There's too much furor right now in MN about guns and the push for new laws

(And though I have a Permit to Carry, I refer to it as a CCW, sorry all...)

Heck, sometimes I even refer to a magazine as a clip...

If you enjoyed reading about "Goofy Armslist deals" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!