Bench Rest Primers Reduce Groups By 25%


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vtail
May 2, 2013, 11:24 PM
According to this guy.

That makes these a bargain at $160/1000. :what:


http://www.armslist.com/posts/1491811/tulsa-oklahoma-ammo-for-sale--cci-large-rifle-aps-bench-rest-primers-strip--br2--1000-primers-

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Don McDowell
May 2, 2013, 11:38 PM
Well they do help make smaller groups . But that price is just a few dollars less than what I paid for 5000 of them just before the big panic set in.... Sort of hope he chokes on em.

Certaindeaf
May 2, 2013, 11:48 PM
I think most benchresters use $18/1000 Tulammo primers.

ArchAngelCD
May 3, 2013, 01:06 AM
I have 1000 of those CCI Benchrest primers sitting on my shelf for years and never found a use for them as of yet.

gamestalker
May 3, 2013, 01:18 AM
I used them most of the time years ago, and I did see a more consistent detonation when I tested them for flash against a standard CCI-200. But so far as being able to see a significant difference, or 25% better groups as he claims, I doubt it.
GS

4895
May 3, 2013, 01:53 AM
Bench Rest Primers Reduce Groups By 25%

Should add they will reduce your wallet by 25% as well.

These days, there ain't much in the way of a bad primer...

TheSaint
May 3, 2013, 04:28 AM
Someone help a reloading newbie out: What's the difference between a benchrest primer and a normal one?

kyhunter
May 3, 2013, 04:45 AM
benchrest primers are said to have a more consistent temperature and flash per lot or box than standard primers. Reducing extreme spread in velocities therefore more reliable velocities and impacts. I have never used them and doubt many people and their rifles shoot well enough to benefit from them.

TheSaint
May 3, 2013, 05:04 AM
Thanks for the education. ;)

beatledog7
May 3, 2013, 07:10 AM
A 25% improvement?

So, if I can shoot a 1" group with 3 primers, I can shoot a .75" group with 16 primers. That extra .25" of accuracy costs me 13 a trigger pull and effectively gains me nothing.

What a deal.

Walkalong
May 3, 2013, 07:19 AM
Back during the Clinton era primer shortage many folks ran out of Federal Match primers and started substituting standard Winchester small rifle primers (What they could find) in their loads. Many reported no discernible difference, and when the Fed Match primers were available again, some never went back.

That said, match primers are a bit more consistent than standard primers. In a sport where one shot out of an aggregate can blow it for you, many want that little extra bit of peace of mind.

SlamFire1
May 3, 2013, 09:34 AM
I talked to a bud whose job is calibration and gaging for Government ammunition plants.

He says that match primer lots are picked out from unusually consistent lots of primers. Workers are given incentive pay if their primer cake is used in the match primers. But, the process of mixing primer cake is such that they cannot assure that each and every mixed lot has the consistency for match primers, it sounds as if extreme consistency is a hit or miss process.

I do know that there are other variables, such as the amount of primer cake in the cup makes a difference in ignition, so there is more to making a good primer and the manufacturer’s are not letting that information out in the public domain.

Most of the real good target shooters I shoot with use CCI Benchrest primers, so either the primers are good, or they are simply buying them because the box is stamped “Benchrest”. A bud of mine who has won National F class championships uses CCI Benchrest, Federal Match, and Russian primers. It all depends on the results of his load testing.

I shot some Russian primers, testing the things, and they shot great.

45_auto
May 3, 2013, 10:42 AM
So, if I can shoot a 1" group with 3 primers, I can shoot a .75" group with 16 primers. That extra .25" of accuracy costs me 13 a trigger pull and effectively gains me nothing.

That pretty much depends on how important what you're trying to hit is to you, and how far away it is.

ranger335v
May 3, 2013, 11:09 AM
"Bench Rest Primers Reduce Groups By 25% "

Anyone saying that will lie to you about other stuff too. At their best, and in BR rifles, they are only expected to reduce average groups slightly, no where near 25%. Few factory rifles, even those with after market barrels, will ever see any difference. But he's likely to sell a few bricks, proving that a fool and his money are soon parted.

ArchAngelCD
May 3, 2013, 12:17 PM
Someone help a reloading newbie out: What's the difference between a benchrest primer and a normal one?
From what I'm told the primer companies use their best and most experienced workers to make the Benchrest primers. That sounds like the most likely explanation, the people who do it well and have done it longest will probably make consistent primers. (at least in theory)

Jesse Heywood
May 3, 2013, 10:46 PM
During the 08 scare I bought Federal match primers. Store had them for the same price a std CCI. Clerk asked why I was buying the match. My response was that if I had to pay too much for primers, I might as well get the better ones. That was when I learned about Federal's incompatibility with primer trays.

jerkface11
May 3, 2013, 10:52 PM
According to my Speer book the only difference between regular primers and benchrest primers is the people on the assembly line have more experience.

4895
May 3, 2013, 11:43 PM
From what I'm told the primer companies use their best and most experienced workers to make the Benchrest primers. That sounds like the most likely explanation, the people who do it well and have done it longest will probably make consistent primers. (at least in theory)

I have heard the same thing. Personally, I feel that my loads shoot better with BR primers than others. I do have a few on-hand but save them for a rainy day and will continue to use std primers. There is so much to learn about handloading and benchrest shooting in general that they may be better left alone until I can utilize their potential.

For anything competitive, whatever it may be, success is the culmination of many small differences that affect the whole.

higgite
May 4, 2013, 02:04 AM
Hot dog! I have another good excuse for my poor marksmanship. "It's the primers. Yeah, that's the ticket... the primers."

ArchAngelCD
May 4, 2013, 06:00 AM
Hot dog! I have another good excuse for my poor marksmanship. "It's the primers. Yeah, that's the ticket... the primers."
Soooo, that's your story and you're sticking to it, AAA!

I like it!!!

beatledog7
May 4, 2013, 08:12 AM
BD7: So, if I can shoot a 1" group with 3 primers, I can shoot a .75" group with 16 primers. That extra .25" of accuracy costs me 13 a trigger pull and effectively gains me nothing.

45_auto: That pretty much depends on how important what you're trying to hit is to you, and how far away it is.

Agreed. So a shooter who can actually shoot well enough to leverage any added consistency afforded by these hyper-expensive primers should use them only when he or she is loading rounds for some sort of long range or other extreme accuracy application.

The kinds of shooting most people do--humanely taking a deer at ≤150 yards, popping varmints at 75 yards (yes, I know we often shoot at them from much further away), punching paper at the local range--will not be enhanced to a discernible degree by the choice of primers. Unless one has a specific need for nth-degree, sixth sigma accuracy, one should stick to using whatever is reliable and at the best price.

ranger335v
May 4, 2013, 02:46 PM
"That was when I learned about Federal's incompatibility with primer trays. "

That's interesting. I've used Federals by choice for decades and haven't yet learned that. ??
--------------------------------------------------------------

BD7: So, if I can shoot a 1" group with 3 primers, I can shoot a .75" group with 16 primers. That extra .25" of accuracy costs me 13 a trigger pull and effectively gains me nothing.

45_auto: That pretty much depends on how important what you're trying to hit is to you, and how far away it is.

Well 45, you raise an interesting question. It really sounds wise - in theory - so, maybe, but ...

Real world, BD7's example equals a MOA diameter of 1/4" with a potential hit radius difference from group center of half that. A 1/8" MOA greater dispersion from center equals a potential error of one inch hit displacement at 800 yards; how small and how far away might the target need to be for such a loss of pure accuracy to make a miss? And, might it be far enough that a tiny bit of unknown wind or misjudgement of distance or an awkward field shooting position would be more significant in making the hit than such a small group difference could ever be?

rodregier
May 4, 2013, 04:33 PM
Primers are just one of several sources of cartridge velocity (and accuracy) variability. Realistically, unless you get the other larger sources under control, you're probably not going to get good value out of purchasing and using match-grade primers.

Some of those larger variables include (but are not limited to):

- Power charge variance
- Cartridge case weight variance
- projectile run-out in cases
- case neck concentricity

floydster
May 4, 2013, 08:33 PM
I have been using bench rest primers in my 45 Elite Match and I have reduced my groups to under an inch at 50 yards standing on one leg with the modified Weaver stance with my cap on backwards.

markshere2
May 5, 2013, 12:42 PM
"I have been using bench rest primers in my 45 Elite Match and I have reduced my groups to under an inch at 50 yards standing on one leg with the modified Weaver stance with my cap on backwards."

Heeeeyyyy, wait a minute! I don't think you are telling us the Truth!

witchhunter
May 5, 2013, 06:44 PM
I have found that primers make difference....sometimes, but not always. I will always try several brands to see if it helps. On some loads, brenchrest primers are worse. Just my opinion.

BillB204
May 6, 2013, 10:08 AM
A 25% improvement?
So, if I can shoot a 1" group with 3 primers, I can shoot a .75" group with 16 primers. That extra .25" of accuracy costs me 13 a trigger pull and effectively gains me nothing.

If you're shooting 1000 yard, you're reducing a 10" group to a 7.5" group. In competition, that's not "nothing". And it probably IS worth an additional 13 cent increase in cost - especially if you're paying 75 cents, $1.00 or more per round anyway.

About 6 months ago I decided to do an apples to apples comparison of several types of primers. In my .284, my three test primers were CCI 200 (std), CCI BR-2 and Federal Magnum Match. Cases were cleaned, length sized, neck sized and weighed identically. 53.0 grains of H4831sc behind 175gr SMKs. Three 5 shot strings of each. I saw virtually no difference between the CCI 200s and CCI BR-2s in either group size or SD. However, with the Federal Magnum Match, I got about a 25% decrease in group size and about a 50% decrease in SD. Can't say whether it was going to Federal or going to magnum primers. But I did stock up on the Fed Mag Match! Other loaders may have different experience; just sharing my experience. (2 cents worth)

higgite
May 6, 2013, 11:43 AM
I have been using bench rest primers in my 45 Elite Match and I have reduced my groups to under an inch at 50 yards standing on one leg with the modified Weaver stance with my cap on backwards.
You had me until I got to the "cap on backwards" part. I gotta throw the BS flag on that one. :D

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