HK drops USC


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gunnutery
May 3, 2013, 01:23 AM
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/05/02/hk-discontinues-usc-sales/

Part of me dosent care, but another part of me is just a little bit sad. Every once in a while I'd dream about someday converting one to a UMP (without sbr because my state isn't cool like that). But the everytime I'd look at parts costs I'd put it out of my head again. I guess that's why I'm a bit sad.

HK really had a great little design, but no one could afford it, or for those that could, it just wasn't worth it, exept for a select few I'm sure.

What say you?

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David E
May 3, 2013, 01:35 AM
Couldn't care less.

-v-
May 3, 2013, 01:48 AM
While a non-neutered UMP would have been cool, what they sold was not something the market wanted. My guess is HK-USA is focusing more on their handguns which I wager sell significantly better than any of their rifle offerings.

gotboostvr
May 3, 2013, 01:50 AM
I've been torn between one of those an a .45 AR that runs on grease gun magazines.

The AR would be much cheaper and MUCH more customizable, and wouldn't look as goofy without a SBR. The USC would be lighter, smaller and cool in that Teutonic way that only HK can muster.

...Then again... a .45 AR pistol would be the cats meow, most of the fun, and most of the functionality of a SBR without a tax stamp, or worrying about your state laws.

It's a dated design, and dosen't quite hold up to modern subguns like the Kriss which costs less I believe. But they're still cool carbines! I'm a HK fan (among Glock, and S&W revolvers!) and I'm excited to see if they'll bother to release a new, .45acp sub gun which I'll probably just lust at from afar.

Girodin
May 3, 2013, 02:53 AM
You mean a gun stripped of features and sold at a very high price wasn't a big hit? Shocking.

rugerdude
May 3, 2013, 04:31 AM
Huh, a $1200+ gun that was only $500 in parts away from being configured the way people wanted didn't sell very well? Weird.

Taurus 617 CCW
May 3, 2013, 10:13 AM
You mean a gun stripped of features and sold at a very high price wasn't a big hit?

And terrible customer service on top of that!

SilentScream
May 3, 2013, 11:59 AM
Huh, a $1200+ gun that was only $500 in parts away from being configured the way people wanted didn't sell very well? Weird Blame your/our government for that one.

zhyla
May 3, 2013, 01:27 PM
They're too expensive but being discontinued won't help the prices either :(.

HK is the only company that makes pistol caliber carbines with any sense of class. Sure, the Cx4 will work just fine but it's a goofy space rifle.

CB900F
May 3, 2013, 02:33 PM
Here's one I don't understand: "And terrible customer service on top of that!". Not in my experience. I got it done for the entirely reasonable price quoted with the work properly done and rapid turn-arond. What's not to like?

900F

Cooldill
May 3, 2013, 02:37 PM
Man HK grinds my gears. They have some great MILITARY designs, but a lot of the long guns they put out for civilian purchase are like many have stated above "neutered" and for whatever reason stripped of many features found on the military versions of their rifles. I do like there pistols.

As far as pistol caliber carbines, I would take a Kel Tec Sub 2000 over a USC any day of the week.

esheato
May 3, 2013, 02:45 PM
I *want* to like the USC, I just can't over the 2x4 pistol grip on the thing.

Can't say I'll miss it.....

SabbathWolf
May 3, 2013, 04:49 PM
The 10-round mag thing killed it.....unless you wanted to spend a fortune converting it to use UMP mags.

SilentScream
May 3, 2013, 11:20 PM
The reason for the neutered military style rifles has to do with not only our crappy import regs. but also German law as well. Once again blame our government.

bryanZ06
May 3, 2013, 11:41 PM
I had one and really liked it (post conversion), but it has since moved on. It shot great and never failed to gather a fair bit of attention at the range. I miss it every now and then, but not nearly enough to spend the money and go back down that road again. It did hold it's value though. I got everything back out of it that I had in it with the exception of $100 or so on one of the tax stamps.

http://i54.tinypic.com/20sarz6.jpg

Sam1911
May 3, 2013, 11:56 PM
Hmmm. Well, hate to see any firearm be discontinued, but if something had to be discontinued a neutered version of a stillborn example of an evolutionary dead end in firearms development made by an obscure foreign firm is a good one to choose.

jon_in_wv
May 4, 2013, 12:20 AM
LOL. Well said Sam.

Girodin
May 4, 2013, 02:43 AM
made by an obscure foreign firm is a good one to choose.

Was it made by someone other than HK? I ask because I would hardly call HK obscure.

Sam1911
May 4, 2013, 11:39 AM
You don't consider HK an obscure German firm? Weird.

SilentScream
May 4, 2013, 04:08 PM
Since when is HK obscure? Had you made that statement in say 1978 you'd be right.

Sam1911
May 4, 2013, 04:23 PM
:) Just my impression of them, I guess.

MagnumDweeb
May 4, 2013, 04:34 PM
I would only consider H&K obscure because I don't own any of their products but a lot of police departments do or at least did have a lot of their products. Theirs pistols as I understood were upper crust items that performed quite well but were considerably pricey when compared against Sig Sauer products for price and performance.

I'm too much of a Ruger fan to bother with Smith & Wesson products so far that I'd rather buy a SRH .454 Casull (another one plus the one I already own) and have it converted for .45 ACP (cut for moon clips) than buy a Model 25 S&W in .45 ACP, and the Model 25 in .45 ACP is an awesome revolver. With that, since I won't even bother with S&W products that aren't incredibly low priced (getting a 95%+ Model 19 for less than $400 is an incredibly low price, getting a 85%+ S&W 15 for under $300 is an incredibly low price, so if can't get a Model 22 or 25 for under $500 I likely will never have one) I don't see myself ever buying H&K.

Not to say H&K doesn't turn out great products, i just don't think the average buyer with a budget under $1,000 will ever get familiar with them. And that's why they might be considered obscure.

mordechaianiliewicz
May 4, 2013, 04:46 PM
It was said before, when it comes down to it, HK has some great rifle concepts, but they cannot make them in Germany for import (either cannot or will not).... and they don't want to risk building a factory in the US to make US compliant versions of guns like the G36 only to have an AWB make that a wasted investment.

Frankly, I think they charge too much. It isn't that much more difficult to make a Glock for instance, and yet, they cost 3 times as much as a Glock. If you were making HK products in the southern US, like Amarillo, TX or Hattiesburg, MS you could get labor @ about 2/3 the cost of German labor. Just a thought.

Anyhoo... if HK dropped their price and if they began to manufacture full capacity, semi-auto versions of their top selling state of the art mil-spec rifles, then I would be much more interested. I'm not counting on it.

Overall, this gun was not state of the art, milspec copied, or normal capacity. Semi-auto was the only thing I can say for it.

Sam1911
May 4, 2013, 04:48 PM
Ok. I really just think of them as "obscure" (probably an inaccurate word, I confess) in that, as a competition shooter and "practical" shooting junkie, I never see any of them on the range, or in anyone's holsters, or slings. They seem to occupy a sort of foreign cachet as "must be great 'cause they're so expensive and rare" but that doesn't translate at all into folks who can afford to dump a lot of cash into their go-fast gear actually choosing them for whatever super-cool features they might possess. So seldom-seen makes them a bit obscure. Then add in all the frustrating oddity of HK's manufacturing and sales issues/policies/rules that seem to baffle and confusicate American shooters, and that just adds to the obscurity.

All-in-all, for me they fall into the "interesting oddities" category along with Korth revolvers, Desert Eagles, Blaser rifles, and a number of other guns and makers which are undeniably really neat, but that relatively few knowledgeable shooters ever seem to find sufficient reason to buy and use.

(As opposed to SIGs, which are similarly rather pricey and have a grand reputation but which really don't equate to anything magical in the hands -- but at least some folks I respect do choose to shoot them.)

Girodin
May 4, 2013, 05:25 PM
You don't consider HK an obscure German firm? Weird

No, not at all. HK is a pretty prolific gun maker world wide. They make some very well known guns that one can find the world over, MP5, G3, etc. You can go into any local gun shop here and find H&Ks. I'd also wager that every kid with an Xbox or PS3 knows of HK. I have traveled and worked outside of the states a fair bit and seen a lot more H&Ks than a number of other makers.

Not being used in one particular, or even several gun games hardly makes H&K an obscure maker IMHO.

H&K obscure? No not in my opinion. Over priced yeah. Over rated, in some instances they probably are. Obscure, no not really at all.

Cooldill
May 4, 2013, 05:27 PM
Also about H&K, I live but an hour from the factory in Germany but apparently they don't offer any tours or anything. Lame.

SilentScream
May 4, 2013, 05:37 PM
Again I have to say, had you made that comparison in 1978 in the days of the HK4 & P9S then yeah you'd have a point. However look at the USP (around since 1993) has been widely used by police depts. around the U.S. not to mention the MP5.
As far as it's use in Competition, comp. shooters are in my experience the biggest bunch of parrots I can think of. What I mean by that is whatever gear the top guy(s) are using is what the rest all go out and buy whether it works for them or not, they all seem to go out in buy it. I personally have shot matches using the P30 & HK45 (SSP) with excellent results.

Sam1911
May 4, 2013, 05:40 PM
Yeah, like I said, just my impression of them. If I was a SEAL operator in 1985 I'd probably have a different view.

gunnutery
May 4, 2013, 06:36 PM
When I first got into college for law enforcement, the USP was a potential cntender and was included in our firearms course along with Beretta92s, S&W 5906s, Glocks and Rugers. Of all of those, Glocks obviously won out the market and since then, the sub guns have begun to subside. A very small number of G36s remaining in usage. I would tend to agree that in the US market, HK is becoming more obscure as time moves on.

I can see that HK would be hesitant to set up shop in the US, but even before Obama took office, the gun industry was hopping. If they didn't do it then, it'll be decades before they have another window without worrying about US politics.

MAKster
May 4, 2013, 08:16 PM
Boutique firearms might be a better description. The MP5 is one of the most famous submachine guns in the world because of movies and TV, but almost none of them exist in the commercial market.

David E
May 5, 2013, 09:34 AM
I didn't realize that "USC" is an acronym for: "Un Sellable Carbine".........

NOW it makes sense!

barnbwt
May 5, 2013, 05:23 PM
Also about H&K, I live but an hour from the factory in Germany but apparently they don't offer any tours or anything. Lame

Why am I not suprised:D? Does anyone else find it weird that, for a brand as aloof* as H&K, they market their un-sellable products so hard? You always see MP5 and UMPs in video games, Mk23s in every holster, usually even see the little red logo. Why? Is it really making them money? Do LEO/.mil procurers truly make their decisions off of video game performances (I'm guessing at least some do)? Or do the game companies pay H&K to use their products? Why would they, since, as has been said, their use in LEO/.mil applications is more limited than their marketing would indicated?

At least when Gucci markets their stuff and prices it high, you can still actually buy it if you're so inclined. With H&K, it's like they've built up their fancy reputation just to confound US citizens for the hell of it :confused:

TCB

*Inaccessible products, reputed poor customer service, inexplicable high prices; what else would you call them?

barnbwt
May 5, 2013, 05:29 PM
I just had a wild thought, bear with me:

H&K desperately wants to sell mil-spec stuff to civies, but their stupid government laws won't let them. So they fight back the only way they know how; use some of their (I'm guessing) substantial government subsidy dollars to fund ridiculously unprofitable ventures like the USC.

Or perhaps I'm reading too much into it :D. Looking at their product catalogue; I notice that they haven't developed many new platforms since their rise in the '70s...

TCB

SFCRandall
May 5, 2013, 09:12 PM
In thirty years I have never seen one of their products at the range or in the field. I don't know anyone who has ever owned or even fired one. As mentioned previously, they're mostly seen in movies and video games.

Sebastian the Ibis
May 5, 2013, 09:28 PM
they're mostly seen in movies and video games.

I'm sure they pay video game makers to include their offerings. This way people who want a UMP wind up buying a USC and a UMP parts kit to put one together.

A buddy of mine has a UMP (he has a SOT), but I prefer his .22 M-16.

I know a lot of people who like to stroke their H&K pistols, but none of them can shoot them better than I can shoot my glock.

PGT
May 5, 2013, 11:19 PM
Yeah, like I said, just my impression of them. If I was a SEAL operator in 1985 I'd probably have a different view.

MP7's were used on the UBL raid :D

RLTW
May 5, 2013, 11:29 PM
Ive visited the factory in Germany. They might be priced higher than most products but they have always been fantastic in my experience. The proofing process and quality control measures are amazing. Last time I stopped by the Brits had just sent over their FN MAGs (our 240b) to be reworked by HK. That's a statement.

I am not ashamed to admit I appreciate HK... don't think this is going to be another P7 one day though.

browningguy
May 6, 2013, 12:30 AM
Well I love my USC, 10 round mags and all. It's the best shooting pistol caliber carbine ever made.

gunnutery
May 6, 2013, 01:02 AM
Don't get me wrong either, I appriciate HKs products as well and see them as well made quality products. My department has a UMP and I think it's a great gun, but it's fallen out of favor with the brass for some reason. The problem is that they seem unattainable even if they're in stock. The cost doesn't seem to match the end use, at least for most. I looked up hkparts.com again today. The prices for UMP conversion parts are astronomical. I think the price point alone was the major setback for a lot of people, and when you alienate a lot of people, it's kind of counter productive to sales and marketing.

nwilliams
May 6, 2013, 01:42 AM
I had one years ago, it was fun but I got bored with it and didn't want to put any money into doing a conversion on it. The skeleton stock thing was what really did it for me and the lack of anything more than 10 round mags at the time I had mine.

One thing I never understood about the USC or the SL-8 is why they stayed neutered even after HK began making guns here in the US. They could have made these guns in the US and redesigned them without the mag capacity limit and thumbhole stock but I guess that was too much trouble for them. If they had made a decent semi clone of the UMP and G36 they would have sold a lot better.

HKGuns
May 6, 2013, 01:59 AM
Yeah HK makes garbage, which is why DEVGRU carried the 416 and several 45CT's were along for the ride as well, when our favorite terrorist was taken out.

NWCP
May 6, 2013, 07:08 AM
I've owned and enjoyed a HK USC for 13 years. It's accurate, well made and has never failed me. I'm sorry to see them drop the carbine. I also own a HK91 and 7 of their handguns. A HK is worth every penny of you'll spend on it. Folks gripe about their cost, but they generally have never owned one and quite often have never even fired one. The Germans build excellent weapons. They always have and IMHO always will. The USC was a perfect cabine for my purpose at the time. I wanted a carbine that used the same ammo as my carry piece, a HK USP45 compact. It fit the bill nicely. At the time I was able to pick mine up new for just over $900. Money well spent.

taliv
May 6, 2013, 09:19 AM
i bought one a long time ago when i lived in a city and only had access to an indoor range. SBR'd it and did the early UMP conversion but still single stack with grease gun mags.

it was a great little carbine. had a ton of recoil though. very quick to shoot and extremely accurate.

i eventually sold it though, as ARs do the job a little better.

pity HK doesn't know how to market to civilians

kBob
May 6, 2013, 11:58 AM
Back in the 1970s You could buy German guns in Germany for about half what they went for in the US. A Walther employee told me that was because the US had about an 85 percent tariff on German guns in response to a German tariff on American guns.

If I lived in Germany an hour away from Oberndorf am Naker I would join a traditional German Shooting club and be polite and nice and at somepoint let it be known I would like to do some factory visits. I was invited to HK in 1975 ( also Styer in Austria) but duty kept me away as I was a lower Enlisted man at the time with no real control over when I got off.

Had standing invite to Walther and was told I could go to Anshutz (main German shooting buddy was a test target shooter at Annie)if I asked but again it just never happened......makes me want to kick myself these days.

All those invites and offers came through folks in my club.

Re MP5s I shot them in various models (both originals and modified HK94 carbines) and they were fun and seemed a good Police carbine....but an aquantence that saw them used on Grenada said they failed miserably in Infantry Combat. They were in limited use by crew served weapons folks in the Ranger Battalion and the 82nd

The later HK sub guns and carbines just looked too much like plastic toys for my taste, besides the costs.

-kBob

barnbwt
May 6, 2013, 03:35 PM
pity HK doesn't know how to market to civilians

Ah, buy they do, and very effectively, might I add. I'll bet every new shooter in the States looking for a black gun tries to find an HK to look at, before realizing they don't exist. I remember being very puzzled by the absence of a UMP, MP5, or G36 semi auto out there, and more confused that they bothered to sell the neutered versions at all.

TCB

TCBPATRIOT
May 7, 2013, 03:42 PM
My shooting buddy has an unhealthy HK obsession. He has a Flemming sear 3 MP5s, 53, 2 MR556 w/416 uppers(that HK is still trying to buy back) a UMP conversion, and waiting on his stamp to get approved for his G36 build. Aside from the MP5 and 53, I don't understand what they do better than more widely available and cheaper platforms. I carried an MP5 in Africa for about 4 months. I bought a vector 53 even with the SBR stamp and stock I'm still at less than half the cost of his. And you can't tell the difference between them. Sorry I've been so long winded but HK designs great guns but doesn't know how to cater to multiple markets.

Redlg155
May 7, 2013, 07:15 PM
I've owned two of them in my lifetime and doubt that I will ever own another. One a standard and the other a.UMP conversion. They were fun and expensive to shoot and other than being really neat, did nothing really special.

And I lost money on both in resale. Dealers in my area sell them for $13-$1600, but then say that they get them for $900 when you want to trade in.

SilentScream
May 7, 2013, 09:45 PM
I don't understand what they do better than more widely available and cheaper platforms. The "better" is in the materials. You see there is a different philosophy in Germany. By that I mean they don't settle for good enough; which sadly many American and other foreign manufacturers have done. Something else to consider is HK has either invented/popularized/perfected many of the features we take for granted on most production guns. A couple of examples being the common accessory rail on pretty much every hand gun made today & the piston driven AR among others. All of this engineering/development costs $$$$$

barnbwt
May 7, 2013, 10:38 PM
The "better" is in the materials.
I thought the "better" was in the workmanship. I also find it somewhat difficult to fathom that H&K is still paying off R&D for stuff they pioneered in the '70s, made a killing on the world over, and have been (by comparison) coasting since. Who knows, maybe their internal budgets are as rich as the prices they charge, and they really aren't making a profit on their designs?

My (actual) theory about H&K is that they were an innovative and dynamic company, who became completely enmeshed with the bureaucratic entities they did the lion's share of their business with, and have become paralyzed with inefficiency within them. You see this trend all the time in military-industrial complex corporations. Why spend so much more money on a new polymer composite that is "better" yet yields no discernible benefit over something practical? Because some requisition somewhere demanded it, was willing to pay for it blindly, and you end up with products very far up the "diminishing returns" slope that sound impressive in Powerpoint presentations to generals. Much like Swiss weaponry in that respect. Very far from the "cheap, easy, and effective" ethos that guided the design of the G3 to quickly equip a post-war military.

TCB

Akita1
May 8, 2013, 03:28 PM
Guess I'll start calling my USC an "obscure" relic. Except, of course, that it's my HDW and I shoot it all the time. Very simple, very effective, easy to clean, very accurate and does not need to be converted to a UMP, we just think it's cool.

As for HK, our U.S. LEOs and spec ops use them a ton (UMP, MP5, 416, etc.) and while the price tag is not quite user friendly for civs, I must say the two I own have been worth every penny.

I get the discontinuation though; I'm typically the only one at the range who has a USC and they've been difficult to find for years at both shows and LGS.

Akita1
May 8, 2013, 03:37 PM
Just checked on GB and the USC prices have only gone up a little, much of which is likely the current state of affairs. Wonder if the word's out yet. I won't be selling mine and, in fact, am in the market for a MR556 (except they're $3500)

Sam1911
May 8, 2013, 04:09 PM
As for HK, our U.S. LEOs and spec ops use them a ton (UMP, MP5, 416, etc.) "A ton?" I don't really see any reason to say that's true. US law enforcement certainly does not use HK products of any kind in large numbers. (Of course, what is a "large" number? 1% of issued weapons? Then maybe I'd agree.) While we don't know any real statistics on what our various SOCOM personnel use for their tasks, I've read probably 15 or so book-length first-person accounts of such activities covering about the last 40 years and HK products are mentioned occasionally, but not predominately or even, really, all that often. Many other weapons were mentioned with far greater frequency.

So, we might more correctly say HK's products are used occasionally, by a very, VERY small portion of our armed personnel. And we don't really know why those few who use them, choose them.

... and while the price tag is not quite user friendly for civs, I must say the two I own have been worth every penny.
Can you explain that more qualitatively? What were the benefits you derived from your HK weapons that were unattainable through other choices? Are they objectively more accurate than other guns? Are you faster at engaging targets? Have you established comparative mean times between failure that exceed what you've experienced with other companies' products?

I know folks who really like HK products (meaning just those folks who actually have experience with them, and still choose them) REALLY defend that choice. I'd like to know why. How does the cost-benefit analysis balance out? What does an HK do, for you, that an AR-15, a Glock, and/or any number of other (less costly) choices could not?

stumpers
May 8, 2013, 04:23 PM
This is just one anecdote, but when I was assigned to an Army SF Group back in 2005-2008, the only time I saw or fired a UMP was during "foreign" weapons training which was basically everything not an M4A1.

I never saw one carried by SF teams or anyone else for that matter. I did see a ton of Colt Commandos/MK18-types though.

SilentScream
May 8, 2013, 09:13 PM
My (actual) theory about H&K is that they were an innovative and dynamic company, who became completely enmeshed with the bureaucratic entities they did the lion's share of their business with, and have become paralyzed with inefficiency within them. You see this trend all the time in military-industrial complex corporations. Why spend so much more money on a new polymer composite that is "better" yet yields no discernible benefit over something practical? Because some requisition somewhere demanded it, was willing to pay for it blindly, and you end up with products very far up the "diminishing returns" slope that sound impressive in Powerpoint presentations to generals. Much like Swiss weaponry in that respect. Very far from the "cheap, easy, and effective" ethos that guided the design of the G3 to quickly equip a post-war military.
I'm really glad you used the word theory, as your assumptions are not grounded in fact. They are in fact still exceptionally innovative, generally they tend to be very far ahead of their time or better stated ahead of the curve so to speak, when it comes to designs and features they incorporate into they're weapons. They usually don't catch on till years later, again I'll use the accessory rail on pistols, yes theirs was/is proprietary (USP) but that was a standard feature in the early 90's. It took almost another 10 years for it to be standard on competitor's guns, and over 10 years before it became standard across the board for all pistols. Another one is the polymer magazines, yes they've been around since the early 80's if not earlier. But I would say HK & the G36 perfected it. One only knows what's on the drawing boards today. I'm not here to shill for HK but I also believe in giving credit where credit's due.

k_dawg
May 8, 2013, 09:43 PM
I would say that for the US Civilian market, H&K rifles are fairly 'obscure'.

Sam1911
May 9, 2013, 12:19 AM
They usually don't catch on till years later, again I'll use the accessory rail on pistols, yes theirs was/is proprietary (USP) but that was a standard feature in the early 90's.You mean the modified Weaver / Picatinny 1913 rail itself? Or the idea for putting one of the bottom of the gun? Or just on pistols?

barnbwt
May 9, 2013, 12:52 AM
They usually don't catch on till years later
Yeah, that's not a sign of "innovation," but rather lack of ability to bring a product to market and sell it effectively--a big part of that being offering it at a price commensurate with the worth derived from the product. A rail on a pistol is clever; it's not what I would call "innovative" since stuff's been mounted out there in other ways before for years--it's also not very expensive to do so, either. It's possible other companies didn't adopt this because contracts did not request it, or because H&K was sitting on patents that prevented them from doing so.

H&K does do some very cool R&D (the G11 boondoggle being a very cool example, that at least for posterity and the engineering challenge, I'm glad they found someone to waste money on :D) but we don't seem to see it here. I'd have to say that FNH seems to be taking the lead on "innovation that I've actually seen/touched here in the States as a mere civilian," and I think that's cool, so if H&K is putting out even cooler stuff, I'd sure appreciate the chance to check it out. But I don't understand paying 2X top dollar for a last-last-gen platform like the USC--even if it is well executed.

IIRC, H&K makes (or made) a neutered version of the G36. Are they still planning to keep on making that model?

TCB

TCBPATRIOT
May 9, 2013, 01:04 AM
Perfected the polymer magazine eh? Especially with the G36 mag? I don't buy that one bit. Those interlocking coupling lugs are so brittle. I'm a fan of HK designs well as far as their long guns go. But I dare question your reasoning for saying they perfected the polymer mag. They may have a cool design but that thing is nowhere near perfection in both performance , application, and marketing.

browningguy
May 9, 2013, 01:10 AM
Are they objectively more accurate than other guns? Are you faster at engaging targets? Have you established comparative mean times between failure that exceed what you've experienced with other companies' products?

Yes, yes, can't establish a MTBF since my HK USC has never had a failure of any kind. And over the years I have let dozens of people shoot it with every kind of ammo you can think of.

How does the cost-benefit analysis balance out? What does an HK do, for you, that an AR-15, a Glock, and/or any number of other (less costly) choices could not?

There is no cost/benefit analysis, my life is worth whatever I spend, no matter how much. I also currently own 4 AR's in .223 and 5.7x28, I've owned KT Sub2000's (sold the last one during the December madness because someone wanted it for $600), I have 3 Springfield XDm's, 4 BHP's, and any number of firearms ranging from inexpensive to pretty darn expensive. And I don't own, and never would own, a Glock of any size or caliber.

If anyone thinks their KT or other inexpensive PCC is "just as good as" a USC, they simply don't know. I've owned the others, shot them, and recommend them to someone on a budget, but the USC is demonstrably better in every way (except mag capacity) than those inexpensive PCC's. Some people only buy the best built cars, and other people are perfectly happy with a 1980's Chevelle, to each his own and I don't think we should be trying to make people justify why they buy an expensive gun, just reverse snobbery (or possibly gun envy) as far as I can tell.

In short, if I can afford to buy whatever I want it shouldn't matter a whit to anyone else, maybe one day they'll get lucky and can afford whatever they want too.

David E
May 9, 2013, 01:11 AM
that thing is nowhere near perfection in both

1) performance

2) application

3) marketing.

You know, there are 3 kinds of people in this world: those that can count and those that can't...........:D

TCBPATRIOT
May 9, 2013, 01:30 AM
Its that TN education for you.

SilentScream
May 9, 2013, 01:34 PM
Perfected the polymer magazine eh? Especially with the G36 mag? I don't buy that one bit. Those interlocking coupling lugs are so brittle. I'm a fan of HK designs well as far as their long guns go. But I dare question your reasoning for saying they perfected the polymer mag. They may have a cool design but that thing is nowhere near perfection in both performance , application, and marketing.
Granted the coupling lugs may be a weak point in the design, However I think you missed the point on that one. Until the G36 mags showed the way, the only other polymer mags I can think of that were also around at that point are the Thermold, & there's another that escapes me at the moment. Neither of which have had anything but mediocre reviews.

SilentScream
May 9, 2013, 01:42 PM
Yeah, that's not a sign of "innovation," but rather lack of ability to bring a product to market and sell it effectively--a big part of that being offering it at a price commensurate with the worth derived from the product. A rail on a pistol is clever; it's not what I would call "innovative" since stuff's been mounted out there in other ways before for years--it's also not very expensive to do so, either. It's possible other companies didn't adopt this because contracts did not request it, or because H&K was sitting on patents that prevented them from doing so.
I have to point out that if putting an accessory rail on a pistol were merely "clever" why then was it adopted by everyone? And the thought of producing a mid to full size handgun without one is pretty well unthinkable these days.
As far as FNH goes, I like a lot of the stuff they make. However everyone chimes in on how innovative the SCAR is, when in reality it's simply a Stoner AR18 with rails and some other improvements, just like the HK416 is basically an M16/AR18 hybrid as well.

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