14000 Indiana CCW'ers may be "outed"; please help


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c-bag
March 16, 2004, 10:44 PM
The Fort Wayne, Indiana News Sentinel published an article last week about the average CCW holder's characteristics, and proposed listing the names and towns of residence of all 14,000 permittees in Allen County Indiana on their website and in their paper! The logic of this is that it will serve the public by letting everyone know if a gun owner is lurking in their neighborhood. :barf:

Now they've said they're going to "let the people decide" if they should do this by voting in their online poll so PLEASE do the people of Fort Wayne/Allen County a service by stuffing the ballot box and telling the paper and it's owner Knight-Ridder what you think about this.

The links are:


Lisenced to Carry (http://jordan.fortwayne.com/ns/gundata/guns0.php)
Plan to post list of gun permit holders online causes debate (http://jordan.fortwayne.com/ns/gundata/guns1.php)
Vote and Post Comments (http://jordan.fortwayne.com/sentinel/vote/window_edit_poll.htm)

Thank You For Your Support!

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4v50 Gary
March 17, 2004, 01:31 AM
Polls up! Go & vote guys (and gals).

BTW, for commentary I wrote that public safety is better served when the criminal doesn't know who's armed.

G1FAL
March 17, 2004, 01:36 AM
I voted NO, but didnt post a comment. Should have.

Night Guy
March 17, 2004, 01:42 AM
I posted my comments in the other thread about this...

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=71305

:cuss:

Justin
March 17, 2004, 02:05 AM
I would strongly suggest doing something other than voting in the polls.

Call the newspaper and ask to speak to the sales dept.

Tell them that you will not do business with any company that advertises in their paper if they post the CCW info.

If you're feeling particularly nasty, call those companies that advertise in the paper as well.

GunWares
March 17, 2004, 10:55 AM
I suggested that their time would be better spent publishing the names of people who have sex with the lights on. These idiots probably think THAT'S a good idea too.

BowStreetRunner
March 17, 2004, 11:07 AM
This shows how out of touch those journalists are that they think they are doing a "service" to the "people" by publishing such a list
what a bunch of baloney
BSR

Glacius_the_Invincible
March 17, 2004, 11:31 AM
I don't know anything about law, but wouldn't that violate those people's right to privacy? Couldn't there be a legal way of keeping them from publishing such a list?

Zach S
March 17, 2004, 11:46 AM
I suggested that their time would be better spent publishing the names of people who have sex with the lights on. Either way, if I lived there my name would wind up published for no purpose other than letting people know more about me than they should...

glockten
March 17, 2004, 11:55 AM
I set out to talk to editors and ethicists, professors and prosecutors from across the country to try to assess what would provide the greatest good for the most people: posting the list or not.

Yet another yellow journalist who can't tell right from wrong.

DMK
March 17, 2004, 01:07 PM
Perhaps the paper would also be interested in publishing the names and phone numbers of all their employees, including their executives.

I for one would like to know if there were any anti-privacy liberals in my neighborhood.

:barf:

Here's my comment:

I think Prosecutor Richard's comment is spot on. This database would be putting honest citizens at risk. It would point out to criminals to houses that had guns facilitating breaking in to gain access to them.

Is it the intent of this paper to arm criminals?

Nightfall
March 17, 2004, 01:14 PM
Done

Guntalk
March 17, 2004, 01:47 PM
As of Tuesday, the voting was about 630 NO, and 32 YES.

That's almost 20 to 1 against.

I have the feeling it will not be posted on the newspaper's web site.

clubsoda22
March 17, 2004, 01:58 PM
So, the list of editors of the newspaper is right infront of you. Any of you people know how to conduct a full background check?

If they publish ccw information, i recommend you publish their home addresses, phone numbers, childrens names, where they go to school, social security number, last years income, credit history, driving record, criminal record, and any other personal information you can find in public records that you are sure they wouldn't appreciate. I promise you, it will take them about 10 minutes to fold under pressure.

clubsoda22
March 17, 2004, 02:02 PM
You have to be at least 18 to get an Indiana gun permit, but you have to be 21 to buy the pistol it allows you to carry. The database shows 51 of the nearly 14,000 license holders are under 20. No effort is under way to change the age requirements.

That's because your dad can buy the gun and give it or sell it to you at age 18 and there's nothing the federal government or most states can do about it. It's completely legal. Private sales are not regulated in the vast majority of states and in states where they are mildly regulated, (like PA who requires a background check for handguns) there is a clear exception for parent-child and spouse-spouse transferrs. I'm 19 and own three handguns legally, although every range i go to denies me the right to shoot them because they think they know the law or their insurance won't allow it.

Arcli9ht
March 17, 2004, 03:00 PM
Absolutely not. This is a violation of privacy to the LEGAL permit holders and moreso, this publicity stunt puts LEGAL permit holders at the mercy of anti-gun rights activists. Permit holders are required to keep their weapons concealed... you are essentially pulling up their collective shirts and saying "Hey everyone, look what I found!"

/Arcli9ht
:fire:

Gray Peterson
March 17, 2004, 03:04 PM
Permit holders are required to keep their weapons concealed... you are essentially pulling up their collective shirts and saying "Hey everyone, look what I found!"

Not to be a technical smartass, but the way Indiana's permit system works and the laws work is that an Indiana License to Carry firearms are required to carry a firearm whether openly or concealed. Once you have an LTC, you can do both. Like Tennessee.

SwampFox
March 17, 2004, 03:19 PM
My comment:

"I find it interesting that you would post a check sheet that would allow criminals to find the homes least likely to be protected by an armed citizen.
It will certainly make the thugs safer."

This idea is stupid on so many levels. Are the antis so lacking in intellectual acumen that they don't see the side effects of thier actions?

P-35/53
March 17, 2004, 04:43 PM
When I went to post the page was black and never changed- guess they got tired of healthy debate.

SigLaw
March 17, 2004, 04:49 PM
P35

You probably have a pop up blocker on, turn it off and the question will appear.

Siglaw

PATH
March 17, 2004, 05:07 PM
I agree with DMK and ClubSoda22. If they publish the names of CCW holders then publish some very private info on the net including home phones of the papers staff. Turn about is fair play!

Heraclitus
March 17, 2004, 05:32 PM
Can anyone think of a better way to spawn a rash of burglaries? Knowing where the guns are apparently attracts more burglars to my neighborhood than it deters. The guy at the end of my block was hit twice in recent years, and all because he was not shy about his memberships and weapons, as evidenced by the decals he peppered his truck and front door with.

Incidentally, burglars tend to avoid homes with "Beware Of Dog" signs more often than they do those with "Never mind the dog. Beware of the OWNER" gun signs; and they almost always avoid homes with professional surveillance alerts posted on windows and lawns.

Allen County Indiana take heed.

Dave R
March 17, 2004, 06:42 PM
Voted, with comment.

The decision to be armed is a personal decision. License holders are licensed to carry CONCEALED. If the paper publishes names and locations, license holders might as well carry their weapons in public.

m1911joe
March 17, 2004, 07:01 PM
Done

YodaVader
March 17, 2004, 09:22 PM
A friend of mine lives in Raleigh , NC - said that when he applied for or was approved for a permit his name appeared in a local newspaper. Don't remember if it was a purchase permit or a carry permit.

As far as the Ft. Wayne paper - I'll have to post and leave comment as well.

Zach S
March 17, 2004, 09:35 PM
A friend of mine lives in Raleigh , NC - said that when he applied for or was approved for a permit his name appeared in a local newspaper. Don't remember if it was a purchase permit or a carry permit. Someone at the corral mentioned that a local paper would list those who got purchase permits. I think he is from Cary.

Arcli9ht
March 17, 2004, 10:01 PM
Lonnie,

Hehe, sorry bout that, you're right. I've apparently gotten so used to the nanny state I live in that the concept of open carry simply didnt occur to me. :uhoh:

PUMC_TomG
March 17, 2004, 10:43 PM
I'll be on that list... my Indiana Permit was issued in Allen County....

:cuss:

The_Antibubba
March 18, 2004, 01:42 AM
CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT!!

If being outed by a newspaper for CCW would put my life in danger, would shooting the Editor be dismissed as self defense? :evil:

Seriously, someone needs to file an injunction, since intent to act has been stated.

Lancel
March 18, 2004, 02:26 AM
Done with comment:

"Publicly listing gun owners and their locations means crimnals could determine (1) which houses had firearms to steal and (2) that it would be safe to commit crimes against those people not listed.

In other words, publishing such information would be criminal because it mostly benefits criminals."

Larry

clubsoda22
March 18, 2004, 02:48 AM
Find all the editors and assistant editors, and threaten send their children's pictures and school schedules to registered sex offenders if they publish CCW information.

burbanite
March 18, 2004, 12:03 PM
Not to be a technical smartass, but the way Indiana's permit system works and the laws work is that an Indiana License to Carry firearms are required to carry a firearm whether openly or concealed. Once you have an LTC, you can do both. Like Tennessee.

Interesting, do you have a link to verify this? I have been challenged about open carry and would like to know more.


To topic...it would seem that a number of people have already been named in the article, I wonder if they know?

Think I'll follow the suggestion about contacting advertisers, they seem to get rather antsy when you tell them their advertising medium is messing it up for them.

deleteall
March 18, 2004, 12:39 PM
Find all the editors and assistant editors, and threaten send their children's pictures and school schedules to registered sex offenders if they publish CCW information.

Well, glad you're doing your part to show gun owwners aren't total nutcases. :rolleyes:

CatsDieNow
March 18, 2004, 12:41 PM
Says so right on your little pink card - "LICENSE TO CARRY HANDGUN".

Text just below says "The licensee is herby licensed by the Indiana State Police Department to carry on their person or in a vehicle, any handgun lawfully possessed by Licensee." (no distinction made as to how it is carried)

Contrast that with my TX permit which is a "Concealed Handgun License"

Carring openly in Indiana may get the police to ask for your permit on a regular basis, but if you show your permit you should be good to go. Not something I'd do personally, but legal.

RCPilot
March 18, 2004, 04:02 PM
In response to Mr. Vader, I live in Raleigh and the newspaper here has discontinued the practice of publishing people who receive permits to carry. Just wanted to make sure no one here gets a negative view of us here in Raleigh, NC. I also went to the Ft. Wayne website link and voted no and added a lengthy comment on my honest opinion on where I stand. Even though I don't live in Ft. Wayne the voting did not exclude out of staters so I cast my vote and explained why LEGAL gunowners have a right to self defense and the posting of permit owners served no purpose whatsoever. I might suggest the reporter look objectively at how his article is affecting legal CCW people and ask what purpose he is trying to accomplish. I for one can not understand. I always listen with an open mind to anii-gunners as everyone has a right to their opinion but his actions serve no constructive purpose that I can see.

George S.
March 18, 2004, 08:10 PM
Living in Washington State, I don't have to worry about the local papers doing any such thing. WA law prohibits the release of names or any other information of CCW permit holders to the general public. Only police departents and the Department of Corrections may view CCW holder information. Also, WA CCW holders are exempt from background checks under the federal Brady Act.

Unfortunately, some people who interpret the First Amendment as a means and a "right" to futher their own political or moral goals are the ones that should also have their private affairs open to scrutiny. Newspaper editors and "journalists" who thumb their noses at the rights of other people simply because they are acting under the freedoms of the First Amendment just don't seem to understand that in some cases the "freedom of the press" can hurt good citizens as well as help.

The best defense agains these type of people is to use their own newspapers to publish a response or rebuttal to their argument. If they truly believe in the First Amendment and freedom of the press, they will have to allow citizens who (just happen to) possess CCW permits to explain to the rest of the communnity why they have the permits and why it makes the community a safer place to be.

Rhinodogg
March 18, 2004, 08:12 PM
I voted NO, of course. Here's my comment:

I have a better idea. Since these people that have a permit took the legal route to obtain the permit, and they're upstanding members of society, you should leave them alone. Post a list of the criminals that illegally have and carry firearms. Those are the people you should go after. Stop being so left, and try to keep our rights intact. The right to keep and bear arms is right next to freedom of the press in our great constitution:)

c-bag
March 22, 2004, 02:36 PM
Thanks everyone, the poll closed and it's:

95% NO
5% YES

PUMC_TomG
March 22, 2004, 05:26 PM
I also thought I would add that this isn't the first time that this has happened.

Allen County Handgun Permit holders have been outed before during the days of TFL... I remember because I was on the list.

Andrew Rothman
March 22, 2004, 07:55 PM
The people have spoken!

Do you think they'll listen?

I notice there is no story yet about the results.

Cosmoline
March 22, 2004, 10:04 PM
I recall a case in Oregon where a fellow was going to post all the DMV public record information about Oregon drivers on his website and allow anyone who wanted to browse it for free. The action was stopped, but I don't recall now how it was done. An administrative change in how the DMV gave out the info, I believe.

cratz2
March 23, 2004, 12:06 PM
While my initial reaction is to say, 'HELL NO!', upon thinking about it a bit longer, I think if I lived with a wife and kids and several guns, I'd be more adverse to having my name on the list than if I lived along with only one gun that I kept with my person.

I will commit myself to saying that if such a list is published, I will do everything in my power to help with a list detailing where every employee and manager of that newspaper lives and what kind of things they have in their house and what hours the residents keep.

Seriously! ;)

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