Hi cap magazines in California


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ChasMack
May 3, 2013, 07:55 PM
I have a hi cap magazine that a fellow in California wants to buy. He says I can take it apart and it will be "parts". Is that a possibility or should I err on the side of caution and sell to someone else?

Thanks,
Chuck

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limpingbear
May 3, 2013, 08:00 PM
sell to someone else. If it holds more than 10 rounds keep it out of California. It is a potential legal headache you don't need.

Terry4130
May 3, 2013, 08:08 PM
They aren't illegal to own, possess or use. He is correct about taking it apart and sending it as a parts kit. There are many standard capacity magazines here and it is completely legal to use and rebuild/repair them (keep in mind these are pre ban). Calguns.net has tons of info on this.

Frank Ettin
May 3, 2013, 08:21 PM
They aren't illegal to own, possess or use. He is correct about taking it apart and sending it as a parts kit. There are many standard capacity magazines here and it is completely legal to use and rebuild/repair them (keep in mind these are pre ban)....Let me try to clarify --

It is completely legal to possess a large capacity magazine if you possessed it in California prior to the "magic date" (I don't recall what that is and don't want to look it up now).


It is legal to repair such a magazine.


It is legal for a California resident to buy from another State parts which may be used to repair such a magazine.


But it would not be legal for the California resident to use those parts to build a new large capacity magazine.

Terry4130
May 3, 2013, 08:25 PM
That is correct. I'm on a phone, so detailed posts are not happening. Sorry

gbran
May 3, 2013, 09:59 PM
It is completely legal to possess a large capacity magazine if you possessed it in California prior to the "magic date" (I don't recall what that is and don't want to look it up now).


From Google search:

As part of expanding the definition of Assault Weapons with the passage of SB-23 in July 1999, prohibitions on magazine capacity sizes were introduced into the Penal Code. SB-23 added a new term, "large-capacity magazine." The penalty for violating Penal Code 12020 is a "wobbler" with a statute of limitations of three years.

Librarian
May 4, 2013, 01:47 AM
'Magic date' is 1 January 2000.

'Parts kits' are fine; it is up to the CA resident to avoid a crime by not manufacturing a new large-capacity magazine by assembling such a kit inside California.

RetiredUSNChief
May 4, 2013, 02:08 AM
'Magic date' is 1 January 2000.

'Parts kits' are fine; it is up to the CA resident to avoid a crime by not manufacturing a new large-capacity magazine by assembling such a kit inside California.

You are correct, as far as it goes with saying that it's up to the resident to avoid the crime.

However, if said resident indicates to the seller that what he intends to do with it is, in fact, illegal, then the seller can be held responsible.

The difference may seem moot...but it's not. In this case, it's as simple as the two following circumstances:

1. Resident orders a high capacity magazine kit or components and doesn't tell the seller what he intends to do.

2. Resident orders a high capacity magazine and asks the seller to ship it as a "kit" in an obvious effort to circumvent the law.


In the second instance, the seller is being directly asked to do something illegal in accordance with California law by selling the high capacity magazine (his product) as a "kit" (not a product he's selling).

Some might argue that this is a fine line, or a grey area, in the law, but it's really not.

:):)

Quiet
May 4, 2013, 04:11 AM
CA DOJ BOF has also stated that it is legal to import, buy, sell and possess magazine parts.

The magazine parts can then be used to:
1. Repair or rebuild existing legally owned large capacity magazines.
2. Build permanent 10 or less round magazines.
3. Kept as parts and never assembled while in CA.

TheOld Man
May 4, 2013, 04:17 AM
It is becoming obvious to me why stores have notes in their ads: "We do not ship to California"

Fishslayer
May 4, 2013, 04:53 AM
It is becoming obvious to me why stores have notes in their ads: "We do not ship to California"

I'll make it even simpler. There are two reasons.

1. Some kind of misguided political "statement." I can assure you that few to none of the Californians frequenting this website had anything to do with electing feinstein, yee or any of their ilk.

2. Too lazy to keep up with the laws. It's not really that hard.

Kiln
May 4, 2013, 06:52 AM
I'll make it even simpler. There are two reasons.

1. Some kind of misguided political "statement." I can assure you that few to none of the Californians frequenting this website had anything to do with electing feinstein, yee or any of their ilk.

2. Too lazy to keep up with the laws. It's not really that hard.
The third and probably most important reason is that it has become too much of a pain in the butt to ship to states like California.

The truth of it is that its easier to just not ship to severely anti gun states than to jump through all of the hoops in order to legally do so. That is by design in said states. They're hoping to limit the number of hi cap mags and weapons by making it a PITA to deal with the laws there.

Unfortunately it has proven to make zero difference to people that don't follow the laws, like

9mmepiphany
May 4, 2013, 04:34 PM
2. Resident orders a high capacity magazine and asks the seller to ship it as a "kit" in an obvious effort to (1) circumvent the law.

In the second instance, the seller is being directly asked to do something (2)illegal in accordance with California law by selling the high capacity magazine (his product) as a "kit" (not a product he's selling).

Some might argue that this is a fine line, or a grey area, in the law, but it's really not.
It really isn't a grey area, you just seem to be reading it as such because you basic premise, in (1) and (2) is incorrect

The CA DOJ, through a memo from the CA AG, has established that:
(1) should read follow the law
(2) should read legal in disassembled form

While this may not have been the original intent of the law, it is in complete compliance with it as written...and will remain so unless it is changed through the legislative process

Librarian
May 4, 2013, 05:28 PM
The truth of it is that its easier to just not ship to severely anti gun states than to jump through all of the hoops in order to legally do so. That is by design in said states.
True. This is a state-sponsored campaign of Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD).

herrwalther
May 4, 2013, 06:50 PM
It is completely legal to possess a large capacity magazine if you possessed it in California prior to the "magic date" (I don't recall what that is and don't want to look it up now).

According to my Google-Fu there are 2 magic dates. July 1999 and 1 January 2000 depending on which penal code you look up. Thankfully they are not far apart to make a large grey area.

I would sell to someone else just to avoid the hassle, and have. I have sold firearm parts and accessories on Gunbroker and make it very clear I do not ship or sell firearm components overseas or to Draconian states where the item is illegal.

RetiredUSNChief
May 8, 2013, 02:27 AM
It really isn't a grey area, you just seem to be reading it as such because you basic premise, in (1) and (2) is incorrect

The CA DOJ, through a memo from the CA AG, has established that:
(1) should read follow the law
(2) should read legal in disassembled form

While this may not have been the original intent of the law, it is in complete compliance with it as written...and will remain so unless it is changed through the legislative process

Hmmm...

So are you saying that there is no legal culpability to a seller if it turns out that the buyer has been determined to have violated the law, especially if he had reason to believe this was the intent of the buyer?

I looked up California law on the issue of high capacity magazines and interestingly it had a lot of room for leeway in certain aspects. However, it is not legal to import a fully assembled high capacity magazine into California, nor is it legal to assemble a completely new high capacity magazine from parts which are legally imported.

So, the buyer cannot have an assembled high capacity magazine shipped to him. He can have any number of magazine components shipped to him and he can use those components to repair existing, legally owned high capacity magazines. Even to the point where there are no original magazine components left.

But he can't take those individual components he bought and assemble them into a new magazine. That's illegal.

Now, given that, if it's clear that the INTENT of the person buying the magazine wishes to have it disassembled and shipped so that he can reassemble it into a new magazine (not use for repairs to existing magazines), then are you saying that the seller has no legal culpability?

I'm not asking how difficult this would be to prosecute. Simply whether or not it's possible for the seller to be held liable, in part, because he had reasonable belief/knowledge that the buyer was intending to violate the law.

9mmepiphany
May 8, 2013, 03:57 AM
But he can't take those individual components he bought and assemble them into a new magazine. That's illegal.
That isn't completely true. He can legally assemble the parts into a new 10-rd magazine...this is often done for handguns for which there are no 10-rd magazines manufactured

Now, given that, if it's clear that the INTENT of the person buying the magazine wishes to have it disassembled and shipped so that he can reassemble it into a new magazine (not use for repairs to existing magazines), then are you saying that the seller has no legal culpability?
The simple answer is Yes... I refer you to post #9 above

Because there is no crime unless the magazines are illegally assembled...they can be legally assembled

Now, given that, if it's clear that the INTENT of the person buying the magazine wishes to have it disassembled and shipped so that he can reassemble it into a new magazine (not use for repairs to existing magazines), then are you saying that the seller has no legal culpability?
If you had such certain knowledge of the intent of a purchaser, wouldn't you feel obligated to report it to the authorities?

Librarian
May 8, 2013, 04:56 AM
According to my Google-Fu there are 2 magic dates. July 1999 and 1 January 2000 depending on which penal code you look up. Thankfully they are not far apart to make a large grey area.
Unless the law itself has an implementation date in it (or, the law is an 'urgency measure' and it takes effect immediately upon signing) CA laws take effect the January following the date the Governor signs the bill (or allows it to become law without his signature.)

SB 23 (http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/99-00/bill/sen/sb_0001-0050/sb_23_bill_19990719_chaptered.html) was an 'ordinary' bill in its implementation.

Now, given that, if it's clear that the INTENT of the person buying the magazine wishes to have it disassembled and shipped so that he can reassemble it into a new magazine (not use for repairs to existing magazines), then are you saying that the seller has no legal culpability?How would you have the knowledge of the buyer's intent?

RetiredUSNChief
May 8, 2013, 05:23 AM
That isn't completely true. He can legally assemble the parts into a new 10-rd magazine...this is often done for handguns for which there are no 10-rd magazines manufactured

This is true. However, this means that the magazine can't hold MORE than 10 rounds when assembled as such. Such an assembly is, indeed, perfectly legal and is one example of the many surprisingly legal aspects of California law on this that I found.


The simple answer is Yes... I refer you to post #9 above

Because there is no crime unless the magazines are illegally assembled...they can be legally assembled

My question, though, dealt with the illegal assembly...not the legal assembly.


If you had such certain knowledge of the intent of a purchaser, wouldn't you feel obligated to report it to the authorities?

Heh! Nope..I would, however, feel obligated not to be complicit by assisting him to violate the law. Until he actually commits the crime, there is nothing to report. Law enforcement typically can't/won't do anything unless there's an actual violation of the law. (Not talking, of course, about a conspiracy to commit some violent crime which they may investigate, or other such matters.)



I condede that there are a great many completely legal ways and means concerning California's high capacity magazine laws, both for the buyer and the seller. And because of this, it's easy to meet the wickets required to make it legal.

On the part of the buyer, much depends upon the circumstances and the opinion of the prosecuter in his jurisdiction.

http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/DOJ-large-cap-magazines-2005-11-10.pdf


I suppose that even if there were provable foreknowledge on the part of the out-of-state seller AND assuming he could be held somewhat liable, it would be difficult to prosecute out-of-state.


Ah, well...I think I'll quit wondering about all the what-ifs and just leave it be.

:)

RetiredUSNChief
May 8, 2013, 05:28 AM
How would you have the knowledge of the buyer's intent?

Consider it a hypothetical scenario where the buyer contacts you about a sale and it comes out in the conversation.

I'm not talking about assuming out of hand...either you're told outright, or by whatever means it becomes obvious to you.

Simply telling you that the magazine must be disassembled to legally ship it to California would not, in itself, constitute certain knowledge...or even reasonable knowledge.

Alizard
May 8, 2013, 04:51 PM
You are correct, as far as it goes with saying that it's up to the resident to avoid the crime.

However, if said resident indicates to the seller that what he intends to do with it is, in fact, illegal, then the seller can be held responsible.

The difference may seem moot...but it's not. In this case, it's as simple as the two following circumstances:

1. Resident orders a high capacity magazine kit or components and doesn't tell the seller what he intends to do.

2. Resident orders a high capacity magazine and asks the seller to ship it as a "kit" in an obvious effort to circumvent the law.


In the second instance, the seller is being directly asked to do something illegal in accordance with California law by selling the high capacity magazine (his product) as a "kit" (not a product he's selling).

Some might argue that this is a fine line, or a grey area, in the law, but it's really not.+1 I fully realize that everybody at Calguns illegally sell hi-caps by taking the spring and follower out of tht tube and declaring it a rebuild kit. The reason nobody has yet been prosecuted is likely the fact that Cali has been bankrupt for several years and doesn't have enforcement capability to go that far down the food chain.... YET.

What is clear that if a seller takes an action that any normal person could forsee is instrumental in a crime being committed, he is an accomplice or conspirator in that crime.

I suppose that even if there were provable foreknowledge on the part of the out-of-state seller AND assuming he could be held somewhat liable, it would be difficult to prosecute out-of-state.True. They will be going after the buyers who purchased five "rebuild kits" on Calguns and asking them to explain why it is they posess five hi-caps with no spare parts. Case closed.

Until he actually commits the crime, there is nothing to report. Law enforcement typically can't/won't do anything unless there's an actual violation of the law.Sure. They wouldn't be at all interested if some guy had bought a bunch of fertilizer and fuel oil......

It's true that cali DOJ is overloaded and understaffed and have bigger fish to fry, like the gun sellers who are selling illegal straw sales and/or channeling guns to criminals. The hi-cap magazine thing is under the radar right now, no guarantee it will always be.

9mmepiphany
May 8, 2013, 05:36 PM
+1 I fully realize that everybody at Calguns illegally sell hi-caps by taking the spring and follower out of tht tube and declaring it a rebuild kit. The reason nobody has yet been prosecuted is likely the fact that Cali has been bankrupt for several years and doesn't have enforcement capability to go that far down the food chain.... YET.
This is certainly an interesting read of the existing law and the followup clarification by the CA AG's office...which has explicitly defined rebuild kits as legal to purchase and import.

Might the reason for a lack of prosecution be just as likely to be that it isn't illegal?

It has long amazed me how folks who claim to support 2A seem the most willing to spread FUD rather than support the legal exercise of the rights that do exist.

True. They will be going after the buyers who purchased five "rebuild kits" on Calguns and asking them to explain why it is they posess five hi-caps with no spare parts. Case closed.
More Doom and Gloom, without legal basis.

Possessing high cap magazines isn't illegal in CA...never has been. It is only the purchase, transfer and import of them that is restricted. In other words, simple possession doesn't provide PC to even inquire about their origin.

Also there is no requirement that you retain old parts once they have been replaced

Solo
May 8, 2013, 05:43 PM
Well, obviously you used the old parts to fix your dryer.

danez71
May 8, 2013, 10:10 PM
Simply telling you that the magazine must be disassembled to legally ship it to California would not, in itself, constitute certain knowledge...or even reasonable knowledge.

Nope. Why would it?

I could understand your stretch if he said "I need a new hi-cap mag... its legal for you to ship me one if you disassemble it 1st".

RetiredUSNChief
May 9, 2013, 02:26 AM
Nope. Why would it?

I could understand your stretch if he said "I need a new hi-cap mag... its legal for you to ship me one if you disassemble it 1st".
And that's my point.

:):)

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