Gun owners are shooting ourselves in the foot with our kids and not locking up guns


PDA






usmarine0352_2005
May 5, 2013, 04:08 PM
.

These two incidents happened in the same week sadly. What is wrong with us? Why aren't we locking up our guns? There is no excuse for these situations and kids are paying for it and the anti-gunners are using it against us.



When will we start locking up our guns from kids?




I'm not saying that you can't have an un-locked up gun for protection, but you had better keep it somewhere where your kids can't find it.





http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/05/05/18068523-six-year-old-critical-after-being-shot-by-her-13-year-old-brother?lite



.
Six-year-old critical after being shot by her 13 year old brother



By Gilma Avalos, NBCMiami.com

A six-year-old Florida girl was in critical condition Sunday after being shot by her 13-year-old brother Saturday night in a city just north of Fort Lauderdale.

"They were playing hide and go seek. I don't know how it went down but he shot his sister," said neighbor Peter Milano, who saw a frantic woman he thought was the children's aunt running down the block.

"She came up to me 'Is she ok? Is she ok?' At the time I didn't know what she was talking about," Milano said.
.





http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-kentucky-boy-accidental-fatal-shooting-sister-20130501,0,2768797.story





.
Kentucky boy, 5, accidentally shoots to death 2-year-old sister


By Michael Muskal

May 1, 2013, 9:25 a.m.

A 2-year-old Kentucky girl was accidentally killed by her 5-year-old brother who fired a rifle he had been given as a gift, officials said Wednesday.

Cumberland County Coroner Gary L. White said an autopsy of Caroline Starks showed the toddler had died from a single shot from the .22-caliber rifle. The death has been ruled accidental and no charges will be filed, he said in a telephone interview with the Los Angeles Times.
.

.

If you enjoyed reading about "Gun owners are shooting ourselves in the foot with our kids and not locking up guns" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Odd Job
May 5, 2013, 04:17 PM
Any person too young to understand the four rules and independently shoot within the limitations thereof, should only be allowed to use firearms under supervision.

AK103K
May 5, 2013, 04:28 PM
Perhaps if everyone taught their kids about guns from day one, like they do anything else that might harm them, we'd have less of this.

When I first saw this, I was thinking you were meaning exactly that, and there was no need to lock them up. Now I see youre just jumping on the bandwagon for locking them up, instead of educating them.

We grew up with guns all over the house, in racks, closets and drawers, and never had any problems. We knew what they were, where they were, never played with them, and would never touch them without asking, which was all that was required to see them at any time. We could shoot them pretty much any time we wanted, and by age 9 or 10 or so, were trusted enough to be allowed to go out on own own with them, with our buddies and their guns, and all of us came back alive too.

Our kids learned basically the same way, and with the same results, although by the time they were teens, the social control freaks were hard at it, and there were challenges.

This isnt a security issue, its an education issue. But it seems, we no longer give, or demand responsibility from our kids early on, like we used to, and it appears they cant be trusted with anything dangerous without adult supervision. Looks like all the social planning going on in the schools is right on track. Before you know it, you wont be able to trust adults ether. Oh, wait, never mind..... ;)

TCB in TN
May 5, 2013, 04:34 PM
I agree that unlimited access to firearms for children unable to be trained to be safe is a bad thing.

That said exactly how many kids are killed each year because they take their parents cars w/o supervision and wreck?

How many kids are killed each year from taking their parents drugs? The pool comparison is out there and IIRC the number of children who die in pools is around 300 annually, a very similar number to the number of accidental shooting deaths. A much lower number than drug overdoses, a fraction of the number of kids killed in all car wrecks, killed in falls or other accidents etc.

I do believe that we as gun owners need to be responsible. Just think that the overall numbers are needed to put things into the proper perspective.

erikk8829
May 5, 2013, 04:41 PM
Raised 5 kids, always had many guns around, not locked up and all loaded. When I came home from work (state police) gun belt came off and hung on closet door knob. Children were taught from day 1 gun safety and to mind their parents. As they became older they were allowed to handle the firearms and shoot them with supervision. To them firearms were not the forbidden fruit so they did not think having them around was a big deal
It is the people who hide, lock up & think they are safe are the ones asking for trouble the minute the kids are left alone. One way or another kids will find a way and then the trouble starts
\

usmarine0352_2005
May 5, 2013, 04:47 PM
.

I'm all for educating kids. I grew up with guns around and my dad taught us not to play with them and we didn't.


However, who's to say these kids weren't educated?




And just because are educated doesn't mean they won't still play with guns. Will a 5 year old really be able to be "educated" enough?
.

mljdeckard
May 5, 2013, 04:53 PM
I will say they weren't educated. If they were educated, they wouldn't have disobeyed the four rules.

Every household is different. It is the responsibility of every gun owner to correctly appraise the maturity level of the people in his house and secure his guns appropriately.

My middle three boys, ranging from 7-11, are fine with any gun, anywhere. They know they aren't toys and won't mess with them. My youngest, who is autistic, has no concept of guns, violence, or death, and has no boundaries at all. My oldest (technically ex step-) son, is 15, and a bit impressionable and loopy. Whet I keep locked up or available will vary depending on who is in the house.

beatledog7
May 5, 2013, 05:20 PM
MSM are a huge component of this. Whenever there's accidental gun death, MSM jumps all over it to demonize THE GUN. An accidental death by any other means is, of course, brushed aside as tragic but normal. A drowning is not blamed on the pool. A traffic death is not blamed on the car.

These accidental deaths are indeed tragic, and the associated parents are accountable. But not because they owned guns or because they failed to keep them locked up--it's because they acted irresponsibly WRT the safety rules, the ones that ALWAYS avoid tragedy when followed. And none of them say anything about keeping guns under lock and key.

Fremmer
May 5, 2013, 07:05 PM
You make the choice to lock away your guns. That's your choice in your house with your kids.

But what I do, in my own house, with my own kids, and my own guns, is none of your business. Or the government's business.

Cosmoline
May 5, 2013, 07:06 PM
As a nation of gun owners, our average knowledge of basic safety and marksmanship is WOEFUL. Worse than woeful. There are few ranges to practice at and they tend to be extremely expensive. Respect comes from knowledge and knowledge comes from use. Locking guns up is good and sometimes essential, but mystery breeds curiosity. And curiosity can be fatal.

Always assume the young one WILL repeat WILL find the iron. They always seem to find that gun, no matter where you squirrel it away. I liked the rule, I think it was Finn Aagaard's, that the kids can shoot any gun in the house but had to ask first. They learn, they see, and they learn to respect. Otherwise the thing is just a mysterious totem practically screaming to be picked up and played with.

OleReb
May 5, 2013, 07:09 PM
I agree,these days they have to be locked up or out of reach depending on the age of your kids. Soon as my kids got big enough to get a stool to reach the top shelf where i kept my loaded handgun i got a vault and they all went in it,i still keep one loaded handgun out just incase but its always on me and never set down where anyone can get it. I started teaching my kids very young about guns so they know alot about them and to respect them but the reality is they are KIDS and kids do stupid things sometimes,the days of leaving a rifle in the corner with kids in the house are over,all this does is makes gun owners look like idiots and fuels the gun ban agenda.

vito
May 5, 2013, 07:35 PM
Personally I resent your using the phrase "What is wrong with us?" What do you mean by "us"? I support gun education as much as anyone, but just because some idiot is irresponsible with his kids safety does not make me feel one bit guilty; there is no "us". Most gun owners will never experience their children killing themselves or others with the parent's gun, fortunately so. As long as I am still allowed to raise my own children I, and no one else, will decide what is the right balance of safety and gun education. In truth, my five kids are all adults now, and every one of them were trained by me in gun safety and the proper use and care of firearms. Some (in fact almost all) have chosen not to have a gun in their home, which is totally their choice. When some moron drives drunk and kills someone, I don't say "What is wrong with us?"; the question is "what is wrong with the a--hole who drunkenly killed someone?". For what it is worth, when my four oldest were growing up I kept a loaded, unsecured gun in my bed side table, and never had the least concern about it. My fifth child, is, well, a bit of a problem, and I would NEVER leave an unlocked gun around while he lived in my home. Even this fifth one learned from me how to safely handle and shoot a gun, but I made the decision to change how I kept my guns due to his situation. And now that I have grandchildren who often visit, I keep my guns in a gun safe, with one relatively available in a small GunVault in my dresser. I will never put my grandchildren at risk, and truly believe I never put my children at undue risk.

Reloadron
May 5, 2013, 07:44 PM
Well usmarine0352_2005, I'll tell you where I see the problem. There is something like 80 plus million gun owners in the US.

There is a difference between a gun owner and a shooting enthusiast and what we have in this forum are those gun owners who also are shooting enthusiast. You are preaching to the choir in these forums. The problem is getting all gun owners to act responsibly. As stupid as it sounds to many of us, many gun owners are woefully uneducated when it comes to proper gun storage and security. So the question becomes how do we educate all the gun owners beyond the gun enthusiast?

Maybe some PSA spots?

Ron

351 WINCHESTER
May 5, 2013, 07:50 PM
A huge part of the problem is lack of education on the part of gun owners. I taught my sons early on what guns were, what they could do and how to respect them. We live in a nation where we expect our govt. to raise our kids which as many of us know is totally wrong.

herrwalther
May 5, 2013, 08:00 PM
It is all about gun proofing your kids and kid proofing your guns. One or the other doesn't work by itself. Lock up your firearms when they aren't on you. I have two safes and I don't have any children yet (but will in a month.) One safe is quick access where I keep my concealed weapon when it is not on my person, next to where I sleep at night. The other is a free standing RSC where I keep the rest, unloaded with ammo locked up elsewhere. When children start having cognitive thoughts, start with the basics that we all know. No government should be allowed to regulate when they can start learning or insurance on our weapons if we don't want it, or is our "safe" "safe enough" to keep them out. You know your family better than anyone else.

Children accidental firearm deaths under the age of 17 average about 150 a year. Statistically it is a rather insignificant number compared to all the other ways children die but as parents and soon to be parents, you take precautions and hope for the best.

shafter
May 5, 2013, 08:01 PM
If a child is properly taught then there should be no need of locking up a firearm.

I am getting more than a little peeved at the whole "shooting ourselves in the foot", "don't give the antis ammunition", and in general bending over backwards to not offend.

splattergun
May 5, 2013, 08:02 PM
Supervision, education, more supervision and education and THEN locks. Did I mention supervision and education?

Cosmoline
May 5, 2013, 08:51 PM
there is no "us".

Legally and morally I agree with you. We're not culpable. But that doesn't mean there isn't an "us" or that we have no role to play. The good news is that spreading knowledge and helping to train or direct people towards knowledge and training also helps to firm up the RKBA in general.

Sam Cade
May 5, 2013, 08:57 PM
.
an autopsy of Caroline Starks showed the toddler had died from a single shot from the .22-caliber rifle. The death has been ruled accidental and no charges will be filed, he said in a telephone interview with the Los Angeles Times.

The name is wrong, this happened in my (very small) hometown.






I wonder what other incorrect news I will encounter today.
.

hovercat
May 5, 2013, 09:02 PM
After a generation grows up knowing (because mom and dad did it) that firearms are so volatile that they must be kept locked behind layers of steel, we will not need a second amendment, folks will not dare touch the things.

stumpers
May 5, 2013, 09:14 PM
This "tragedy" is on the parents. This negligence has little to do with the tool and everything to do with the responsibility neglected by the parents.

If one cannot train a child properly, then one has the obligation to provide for that child in every manner of failed training. In this case, that provision should have been secured firearms.

I trust that my son is trained to know better, but I still secure my firearms from his access, because there is no certainty.

goon
May 5, 2013, 09:54 PM
I hate to say it, but you're right. There are a lot of situations where we're not helping ourselves.

Geno
May 5, 2013, 10:02 PM
Unless I am wearing my firearms, or holding them close-by, as in direct sight, they are locked in a vault. My ammunition is also locked away.

Geno

Steel Horse Rider
May 5, 2013, 10:07 PM
Projecting your own beliefs and understandings to all other humans is a fatal flaw of humanity. My 3 brothers and I were raised in a house with loaded guns, including a dreaded "high powered rifle" (an Argentine Mauser) without shooting anything more than a marauding coyote, skunk, or dog. Accidents, tragedies, and stupidity will cause the loss of innocent lives no matter the precautions taken or the hardware available. The best way to combat the misuse of these tragedies is to educate people that life is a risky business at best, so all of us needs to understand that life and opportunity are both precious and should be used for maximum potential, not strictly for self-preservation.

Sam1911
May 5, 2013, 10:19 PM
Kids must be taught! Kids must be given closely supervised access. Education is the ultimate key to safety.


...



However, I don't care how educated you think your 5 year old is, leaving a loaded firearm LITERALLY lying around where he and his two year old sibling may just have the pure, natural, childish lack of mature understanding to do something which will end their lives, is just IMMORALLY STUPID. Doing things that make no sense, that they've been told and shown not to do, that they absolutely "know better than" to do -- is what pre-schoolers DO. It's practically their job in that stage of life. They spend almost every waking moment learning from their MISTAKES.

Putting young children in a situation where they are free to make a mistake with the possible consequence of homicide, even homicide of their own baby sibling, is UTTERLY DEVOID of parental responsibility.

Pre-school aged kits, tragically, find death occasionally despite our best efforts as parents. But for us to have so little respect for the lethal power of a firearm in their trusting, innocent, ignorant hands makes no more sense than leaving them to wander unattended in a room of running power tools, or playing in a half-full bathtub, or to play in the street just because we told them to remember to watch for cars.

Unconscionable.

G'dale Mike
May 5, 2013, 10:32 PM
A five year old with access to a loaded firearm,, parents should be jailed.

Yo Mama
May 5, 2013, 10:40 PM
A five year old with access to a loaded firearm,, parents should be jailed.

Not necessarily. A 5 year old neglected and unsupervised with a loaded firearm yes. Having a loaded firearm in the home is not reason for parents to be jailed.

leprechaun50
May 5, 2013, 10:52 PM
I grew up in a household where every gun was loaded. My dad's rifle and shotgun were kept in the toolshed, and his pistols were kept in the house. One on a hook in the entry, and one in a dresser drawer. My brother, sister and I knew where they were, and we knew not to touch them without permission.

We were taught firearm safety while learning to walk. We also had respect for our father and knew there were certain lines that were never crossed and what the penalty for disobedience was.

My wife and I have raised three children the same way and they survived just fine. That being said we now keep all but our carry guns in a safe.

I can understand both sides of this issue, but in the end this is a decision that each family must make for themselves and their children.

Yo Mama
May 5, 2013, 10:52 PM
In AZ we just had a 3 year old grab his Grandmother's gun killing himself when he shot himself in the face.

The Grandmother is a Meth user (PROHIBITED POSSESOR!). There is often more to the story than the gun just grew legs and.......

Sam1911
May 5, 2013, 10:55 PM
Unconscionable.
Let me add one more bit of narrative so we're all talking about exactly the same thing:

When Mom left the 5-year-old and the 2-year-old alone, the gun in the room was a Crickett rifle.

That's a single-shot rifle which not only has to be loaded, but it has to be manually cocked as well before it can fire. Just closing the bolt on a live round doesn't cock the striker. Cocking the striker is not an action a 5-year-old can accomplish. It takes quite a bit of hand/finger strength to draw back that cocking piece. Keystone Sporting Arms makes this a major point in their marketing as a safety feature.

So, in that situation, some adult had to leave that rifle in a room with an unattended toddler and pre-schooler. Some adult had to LOAD that rifle (10:1 the 5 year-old couldn't have even done that himself). AND some adult had to go and deliberately cock that rifle and make it ready to fire.

This adult took every step down the path to this tragedy themselves.

Unconscionable!

erikk8829
May 6, 2013, 06:56 AM
I really hope that the home invaders give you time to dial the combination

Sam1911
May 6, 2013, 07:00 AM
I really hope that the home invaders give you time to dial the combination

If you're relying on a single-shot .22 micro youth rifle, left cocked and propped in a corner in the care of your pre-schooler and toddler for your home defense solution?

...

Ok, so that really doesn't even need a rebuttal.


(I have kids. Every one over the age of three has enjoyed shooting and been instructed in shooting -- including AKs, handguns, etc -- since they were younger than this poor child who's now killed his sibling. I have much more powerful and appropriate firearms than this ready at a moment's notice. And yet they are safely secured from discharge by curious toddlers. It isn't hard, it isn't a difficult concept to grasp or a very challenging problem to solve. Basic parental responsibility.)

pockets
May 6, 2013, 08:07 AM
I see that I am not alone here. Grouping all firearms owners into one box, because of the lack of a few is just wrong.

I grew up with an unlocked full gun rack in the living room every day. I didn't shoot my sisters and they didn't shoot me. It was a non-issue because we were taught better than that. We also didn't drink the Drain-O under the sink, play hide'n'seek in the freezer, or try to juggle chainsaws.
My sons grew up with firearms in the house from day one. Again, it was a non-issue and they are both just fine today (30 and 39).
.

Sav .250
May 6, 2013, 08:21 AM
With home defense such a big deal . No wonder "kids" have easy access to weapons.
You read enough forums and it seems most people with that mind set have guns just about anyplace you can think of.
It`s almost a catch 22. Lock up your weapons and the HD aspect is gone. Ready access that is.
Leave them where you can get at them in an emergency and your kids may/or may not
find them.
Parents have a problem Folks with out, no problems.

Al Thompson
May 6, 2013, 08:54 AM
Leave them where you can get at them in an emergency and your kids may/or may not find them.

One very good solution to that is to keep a handgun on your person. As several very competent folks have stated in the past, "Pants on, guns on"...

;)

osteodoc08
May 6, 2013, 09:02 AM
This is very sad. Just timing, but I bought one of those gun vault things to keep my night stand gun put up from my young uns. I had it in my armoire on the very top in the back but they are getting older and will soon be able to find those things. Best $100 I've spent lately. If nothing, peace of mind for me and it only adds a few seconds to getting it. It was plenty big for my P226 with TLR-1s, extra Streamlight and magazine. If I need more than 40 rounds to defend my home, something is seriously wrong.

shafter
May 6, 2013, 09:06 AM
When I was a kid my dad had his guns locked up in a gun safe - and it didn't take long for me to figure out that the little funny shaped key on his key chain opened it.

On the other hand..

My grandfather never locked up his guns. I knew exactly where they where and where the ammo was kept.

I knew that I could look at them any time I wanted as long as I asked and was supervised. I also knew that a horrific spanking awaited me if I touched them without permission. I never touched them without permission.

JohnBT
May 6, 2013, 09:08 AM
"Unless I am wearing my firearms, or holding them close-by, as in direct sight, they are locked in a vault. My ammunition is also locked away."

I'm curious, do you also lock up all the car keys when they aren't in the pocket of an adult? If not, why not?

I, and everyone I knew as a kid, had access to the car keys, knives and guns and nothing bad ever came of it.

John

Arkansas Paul
May 6, 2013, 09:45 AM
I think we're missing something.
We are discussing training your child vs. locking up the firearms. The fact of the matter is, either way, it's the parents' fault when 5 year old children get loaded firearms and shoot people. You want to say it's a training issue? Fine, the parents are at fault for not training their children. You want to say it's easily accessible firearms regarding small children? Fine, it's the parents' fault for making the access so easy.
Bottom line, when a 5 year old kills someone, it's more than likely the fault of the parent.

Sam1911
May 6, 2013, 10:04 AM
Pockets, did you leave a loaded and cocked child's rifle out in the room when your boys were toddlers, and leave them alone to see what might happen?

When you were little, did your parents do that? Or were guns stored unloaded (at least uncocked???), at least out of sight if not in some safer area?

Of course you did not do such a thing. People knew better.

We may debate over how many layers of safety are appropriate to protect kids from the foibles of their inexperience and curiosity and lack of judgment, and we may debate how much safety we must trade for the quick access in case of a home invasion (...however constant and present a threat you honestly believe that to be in your life).

But when we absolve the parents from their responsibility here we're literally saying, this 5 year old preschool boy deserved to kill his baby sister because of his bad choices. I utterly reject any such statement. His free will to make bad choices should not be so unfettered -- no, so ENABLED -- as to be ABLE to cause instant death of another human being! He's FIVE years old. He's only two or three years away from when he couldn't yet speak in full sentences!

Alternatively, it is suggested that such things are "random accidents" that are unavoidable in life. When you place a loaded, cocked firearm in the reach of infants and preschoolers and then leave them alone with that gun -- this is not a random, unavoidable accident. Falling down the stairs is a random accident, and most good parents take some precautions against that happening when their kids are so small.

Remember, leaving this gun in this condition is exactly the same as loading a Colt SAA or Ruger Blackhawk, cocking the hammer, and then leaving it on the floor and walking away. None of us would do that if it was just US in the house. It's needlessly dangerous! Dare I say it? Criminally negligent!

We need to not fall into the trap of being so fearful of responsibility that we'd pass this off on the little kids.

Sam1911
May 6, 2013, 10:16 AM
When I was a kid my dad had his guns locked up in a gun safe - and it didn't take long for me to figure out that the little funny shaped key on his key chain opened it.

On the other hand..

My grandfather never locked up his guns. I knew exactly where they where and where the ammo was kept.

I knew that I could look at them any time I wanted as long as I asked and was supervised. I also knew that a horrific spanking awaited me if I touched them without permission. I never touched them without permission.

I'm curious, do you also lock up all the car keys when they aren't in the pocket of an adult? If not, why not?

To both of you -- loaded firearm, deliberately cocked and prepared to fire, left in the reach of an unattended pre-schooler and toddler.

THAT seems equivalent to "locked in a safe but I knew where the key was..." and "knew where the guns and ammo were kept..." etc?

A kid old enough, and strong enough, and willful enough to go locate a gun that has been stored away, locate the ammo, figure out how to load it, and cock it, and then fire and shoot someone is a far cry from two kids, just (or not even) out of diapers being left with a gun one brief tug from firing.

I really can't beleive any responsible gun owner would look at this and throw up their hands like, "Oh, there's nothing that could have been done!" Yes there was, and you damned well know it.

I, and everyone I knew as a kid, had access to the car keys, knives and guns and nothing bad ever came of it.Yeah? That's how I grew up as well, and I knew of two childhood fatalities from kids either finding and "playing with" guns or from otherwise poor gun-handling by kids. One boy in my elementary school shot his brother to death with their Dad's shotgun they thought was unloaded.

It DOES happen and it CAN be so easily avoided. We need to stop acting like we can't learn anything from others' mistakes.

Walkalong
May 6, 2013, 10:21 AM
Irresponsible gun owners hurt us all. The more we can educate on responsible gun ownership the better. Guns should be under your direct supervision or locked away.

Mp7
May 6, 2013, 10:30 AM
... it works for society cause it worked for you ...

causes many accidents.

Not leaving the carkeys, medicine, herbicides, detergents, guns ... etc
laying around is parental responsibility.

Some kids will be smart. Some will toy around with things.
The more dangerous these "things" the more grave the outcome.



i am +1 with the OP.


IŽd consider kids like drunk people. Not completely in charge of
their actions - .... and i wouldnt have a gun, sword or crossbow layin around
with people around who had more than 2 beers.

Carl N. Brown
May 6, 2013, 10:41 AM
As Tonto once said to the Lone Ranger, "What's this 'we' buckethead?"

If my designated home defense weapon is not under my exclusive control, it is locked away; when my great grand kid is over, the guns are not available.

However, come to think of it, the housecleaning sprays and insecticides were left in the open cabinet in the kitchen, and I should put them under the sink with the brasso and drain cleaner and cable tie the doors together for duration of visits.

But quite frankly, the sort of people I know about who don't secure the guns in their home are also the kind of people who pass out after smoking "bath salts" and leave their toddlers to be reported playing in the streets unsupervised or cook meth in a house or trailer with their kids present or otherwise demonstrate that they won't follow common sense or law anyway.

I do recall that the law in Washington D.C. required that a gun in the house had to be unassembled and unloaded, even with no kids around and the gun under exclusive control of an adult, and self-defense would be punished as proof the gun was assembled and loaded.

BrotherFrankie
May 6, 2013, 10:53 AM
never had to lock them up when they were kids... i do now that they are all grown up.. seems they like to borrow them...

:)

be blessed folks

TwoEyedJack
May 6, 2013, 12:16 PM
When my children were small, I kept all the guns locked in a vault except for a Colt 1911 Officers Model with a very stiff recoil spring. Their little hands did not have the strength to work the slide to load it. By the time they were able to work the slide, they were very well trained and not a worry. Even now, when our friends bring their kids over, I lock up everything that can go bang. Having an accidental shooting involving children is simply not acceptable.

Arkansas Paul
May 6, 2013, 12:20 PM
When my children were small, I kept all the guns locked in a vault except for a Colt 1911 Officers Model with a very stiff recoil spring. Their little hands did not have the strength to work the slide to load it. By the time they were able to work the slide, they were very well trained and not a worry.

Same thing here.
I had a loaded GP-100 by the bed, but when my daughter started walking, it bothered me, so I changed it out to an auto with a mag in and nothing in the chamber. Like you said, by the time she was strong enough to work the slide, it was a non issue.

I also lock away all firearms when visiting children are in the home.

Knightsofnee
May 6, 2013, 01:14 PM
Most young, mostly male, kids have an attraction to mechanical objects. I give you erector sets, Legos and Transformers as examples. I, as a kid, was fascinated by the mechanical "snick" of my Dad's single shot Winchester 67 as it was opened and closed. That said, you can still enjoy teaching your kids about the unique enjoyment of firearms WHILE teaching them firearm safety, BUT, until they are older, LOCK UP THE AMMUNITION.

PaisteMage
May 6, 2013, 01:34 PM
I recently got into a discussion with someone about how this was bad firearm ettiquete.

She responded with how firearms manufactuers are marketing towrds kids and that is the problem.

THe discussion kind of went nowhere fast.

Knightsofnee
May 6, 2013, 01:34 PM
Sam1911 has it nailed.

ngnrd
May 6, 2013, 01:35 PM
When I was growing up, my 5-year old brother lit my grandmother's house on fire. He found a lighter (I don't recall where) and started a fire in the sewing room. And, when I was in Junior High school, I was playing with wooden matches on the way home from school and unintentionally lit a neighbor's field on fire - torched 10 acres and got darned close to burning down their house before the fire department got it under control. Yet, curiously, I don't recall anybody calling for matches or lighters to be locked in a safe.

PaisteMage
May 6, 2013, 01:47 PM
For the record my kids are this age.

THe oldest has seena nd knows what a firearm is. He also knows he getsa "bad spank" if he touches or even comes in a few feet of them, if I am not around.

Does he come into contact with them when I am not around, No.

Do I leavve my AMAZING gp100 laying around loaded, on the floor with his legos, No.

Yes, Sam1911, totally is correct.

Sam1911
May 6, 2013, 01:50 PM
Yet, curiously, I don't recall anybody calling for matches or lighters to be locked in a safe.REALLY? You don't eh? You've never heard the warning, "keep out of reach of children?" You didn't notice that (almost) all lighters now come with safety devices specifically to make it harder for kids to do those things?

You and your brother BOTH accidentally nearly burned down houses and you don't freaking think it's a good idea to do your best to keep those out of kids' hands?

(Of course, as a high-school kid you were really out of the range of "accidental" and of behavior you were too young to understand. Stupidity will always be a factor no matter the age, but that doesn't argue against helping protect kids when they're too young to understand consequences.)

This discussion is a little surreal.

WardenWolf
May 6, 2013, 02:06 PM
The six year old who accidentally killed his little sister is an example of GROSS parental negligence. The parents treated the gun as a toy, and let the kid have access to it and play with it when not under strict supervision. They let the kid think of it as a toy, as well, and it leads to a tragic incident. It was wholly preventable.

If you get a young kid into shooting, you need to teach him, first and foremost, that while shooting a gun may be fun, it's not a toy, and you cannot "play" with it. Also, at that point, any actual toy guns in the house need to be removed or turned to a training role. You cannot have any more play with anything that represents a gun at that point.

ngnrd
May 6, 2013, 02:33 PM
Sam, take a breath. The way your rant is going, I half expect to read "if it only saves one child" in your next post.

The OP was using recent tragedies to try to shame gun owners into locking up their firearms if there are children in the household. Simply put, while I think gun safety is important, I disagree with the premise that they should be locked up. And, as far as I can tell, nobody in this thread is saying it's appropriate to give a loaded firearm to a toddler as a toy.

But, putting a warning on a lighter, or trying to make it "childproof", isn't the same thing as keeping it locked in a safe, either. Guns come with warnings and safety devices, too. Heck, most plastic bags even have warning labels these days. And even though I wouldn't give a child a plastic bag to play with, I don't think there's anybody on the planet that thinks they should be locked in a safe. So... why the call to lock up the guns?


And, for the sake of clarity, I said the field burning was unintentional, not accidental. There's a difference.

fastbolt
May 6, 2013, 03:32 PM
It DOES happen and it CAN be so easily avoided. We need to stop acting like we can't learn anything from others' mistakes.

Absolutely. Really. How is this arguable?

I grew up around firearms, as many Americans of my generation (baby-boomer). I recall being taught to shoot my first gun about age 5 years.

I started using a gun safe when my kids were toddlers.

When they were old enough they were each trained in gun safety, and not allowed to handle any firearm unless I was present to supervise it. I tried to satisfy their natural curiosity about firearms when I was present to supervise, but the guns remained secured the rest of the time.

In a similar vein, later on when we lived in a house with a pool, we didn't allow children in the pool area without adult supervision, and the pool area was fenced.

We didn't leave our first grand child alone in the bathroom when the bath tub was filled, whether or not she was even in it at the moment. Adult presence & supervision.

Anyway, one of my children grew to enjoy shooting firearms, and one didn't. Their choice. They both know enough to be safe around them, too.

The thing that really concerned me regarding the presence of children and my firearms (meaning not having them secured) in our house was the possible presence of the children of other parents, either friends of our children over to visit/play, or children taking music lessons from my wife. My firearms were secured.

Things remain the same now that I have grandchildren. Unless a firearm is securely on my person, they're secured so little fingers can't get at them.

We've been seeing the children of LE involved in the same sort of tragic & horrific firearms injuries & deaths as the children of non-LE citizens.

This is a problem. Responsible owners (and users of issued weapons) ought to take those prudent stops to prevent unauthorized access to firearms. Specifically when it involves minors.

Some states have enacted laws in this regard.

This is a large enough problem that it's very likely we're going to see increasingly more laws occur at the level of the states.

ngnrd
May 6, 2013, 03:40 PM
Furthermore, although it appears that somebody neglected to remove a live round, the gun was actually locked.

Tragic? Yes.
Avoidable? Yes.
Gross negligence? Debatable.
Justification for a call to lock up all the guns in homes with children? I just don't see it.

The child safety lock was in place and operational, White said. Officials believe a shell had been left in the weapon from the last use and no one realized it.

Bobson
May 6, 2013, 03:48 PM
Perhaps if everyone taught their kids about guns from day one, like they do anything else that might harm them, we'd have less of this.
Agreed. My daughter is only a few months over two years old, and she recognizes guns and knives just as well as she recognizes Mickey Mouse and the Little Einsteins kids.

Just like she knows what happens if she touches a match ("It's hot!"), she knows not to touch guns (It's boom!") or knives ("It's sharp!") without mom or dad supervising. That said, all my guns are either locked up, or in a place she can't get to, or both. And yes, she already has begun her introduction to shooting, and loves it.

gspn
May 6, 2013, 03:51 PM
As a nation of gun owners, our average knowledge of basic safety and marksmanship is WOEFUL. Worse than woeful. There are few ranges to practice at and they tend to be extremely expensive. Respect comes from knowledge and knowledge comes from use. Locking guns up is good and sometimes essential, but mystery breeds curiosity. And curiosity can be fatal.

Always assume the young one WILL repeat WILL find the iron. They always seem to find that gun, no matter where you squirrel it away. I liked the rule, I think it was Finn Aagaard's, that the kids can shoot any gun in the house but had to ask first. They learn, they see, and they learn to respect. Otherwise the thing is just a mysterious totem practically screaming to be picked up and played with.

Dude...great post!

My kids are great with the guns. They've been taught properly and early. They shoot a lot and they are very safe with them. Like you say...the "mystery" has been removed.

My kids friends however...I don't know their level of gun safety/knowledge at all. I'd be surprised if any of them have ever seen a gun. THAT is why my guns get locked up in a safe. I'm not worried about my kids messing with them...it's the kids I don't know that are the potential problem.

I can recall when I was a young kid...we didn't have any guns in my house. I had a friend or two who did have guns and I can tell you that your statement is spot on about kids finding the iron. I can recall several times when their parents weren't home and we peer-pressured him into letting us "see" the guns. Well "seeing" turned into "holding" and "holding" turned into "aiming".

If his dad hadn't had the foresight to put trigger locks on them there's no telling what we might have done.

Arkansas Paul
May 6, 2013, 03:52 PM
Furthermore, although it appears that somebody neglected to remove a live round, the gun was actually locked.

What am I missing?
How do we know the gun was locked?
And if it was, how was a 5-year old able to get it?

ngnrd
May 6, 2013, 03:58 PM
Paul... Did you read the story (http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-kentucky-boy-accidental-fatal-shooting-sister-20130501,0,2768797.story) linked in the original post? ... paragraph 7.

Arkansas Paul
May 6, 2013, 04:00 PM
I will go back and read it more carefully.

It does indeed say that the child lock was in place and operational.
Obviously the 2nd part of that isn't correct, or they have a really loose interpretation of the word "operational".

roadcoder
May 6, 2013, 04:04 PM
You haven't met my kids. I'd be doing you a favor if I left them unlocked.

Sam1911
May 6, 2013, 04:07 PM
Furthermore, although it appears that somebody neglected to remove a live round, the gun was actually locked.Negative!

Read it again:
The child safety lock was in place and operational, White said. Officials believe a shell had been left in the weapon from the last use and no one realized it.
It was present and operational.

It was NOT actually locked. As I said before, the gun had to be loaded and manually cocked (by an adult) in order to be fireable. Locking it would have been rather a wise idea.

As would not leaving it loaded, and not cocking it so it could not have been fired at all!

Arkansas Paul
May 6, 2013, 04:18 PM
^ That makes sense. It doesn't say it was engaged, only that it was in place.

hariph creek
May 6, 2013, 04:30 PM
I lock 'em up (besides what's on me). I trust my kids. They have been educated and shooting since they were little. There's no "forbidden fruit" fetishism. Some of their friends don't have the same background, though.

Plus these are valuable and portable. Theft concerns me (not from family or house guests).

Anybody that thinks that hiding their guns is effective? Clearly has forgotten what mischief an unattended child can get into.

Any legislation to lock up guns is a bad idea. You can't legislate common sense or safety.

ngnrd
May 6, 2013, 06:27 PM
It was NOT actually locked.
My assumption that it was locked is just as valid as your assumption that it was not.

The quote "in place and operational" lead me to my assumption.

The fact that the gun fired lead you to yours.

In reality, there isn't enough information in the story for a reader to make a definitive determination either way.

I am saddened by the deaths of these children, and I sympathize for the parent's loss. However, I stand by my earlier statement. Although I can understand the emotional reaction to tragic events such as these, there is no justification for a call to lock up all the guns in homes with children present, any more than a call to lock up plastic bags or lighters would be justified if a child died from suffocation, or from a fire.

Guns are not toys any more than are lighters or plastic bags. Each of these objects are wonderfully useful tools when used properly. All of them can be mortally dangerous when not used properly. It is the parent's job to teach their children the difference.

xfyrfiter
May 6, 2013, 06:29 PM
I grew up with loaded guns in the house , accessable to me and my three younger brothers. We all learned at a very young age that guns can kill, because we were eating some of that bounty at nearly every meal. We also learned that the guns were not toys, and were not to be touched, except to use for practice, or to put food on the table. My two sons were taught the same way and there was never an AD, or UD in my or my childrens lives. There is gun safety and then there is child safety and with the right mindset and training there can be both. It is a pity that children can be raised with little of either, as there is today.

Hacker15E
May 6, 2013, 06:33 PM
The implication in the OP's post, and the the associated discussion about the kids shooting the Cricket, is just about as moronic as blaming all gun owners for Aurora, Columbine, or Newtown.

There are lots of us that keep our firearms safely and train our children well. Because a couple of idiots are poor parents, that is not the fault of the millions of other firearms owners who do so safely.

Just like we blame the shooters for the atrocities, let's also lay the blame for incompetent firearms handling at the feet of the incompetent firearms handlers.

gamestalker
May 6, 2013, 06:45 PM
I'm all for accident prevention, but it doesn't have to require locking my loaded guns up. In fact, I view that as the worst possible way of accomplishing such. I raised 6 children, and I never had to lock my guns up, simply because I educated them from day 1. Now that all of them are grown up, with their own children, I have asked them if any of them ever picked up a gun when my Wife and I were not home. The expected, and quick answer was, absolutely not, not even once.

The first thing I did in teaching them at early ages, was to expose them to the loud report from the guns. Not from a distance that would harm their hearing, but in such manner that they would know it wasn't a toy. And at every opportunity my wife and I would take them out and let them see what happens to an animal when it is shot, blood and guts really sends a lasting message. We also took them out shooting, as soon as they could walk. Although it required us to help them handle the firearm, it showed them first hand what it does when the trigger is pulled. When they reach 3 or 4 yrs. old they had already killed their first animal, usually a rabbit. Nothing speaks louder than first hand experience, in this respect. We would take the firearms out regularly in the living room, and then have them practice safe gun handling, have them clear it, while keeping it pointed in a safe direction, and then hand it to their brother, or sister, who would then follow the same routine. My kids would actually have contests, under mine or my wife's supervision of course, completely breaking down the 870's blind folded, and then reassembling them. It just makes sense if you own firearms, to remove the curiosity at an early age.

I remember one of my boys (8 yrs. old) came home from a friends house one afternoon very upset. Before I could ask him what was wrong, he told me I needed to call his friends parents right now, and tell them that the kid was playing with his Dad's guns and ammunition. He said he left the second he saw his friend come out of his Dad's room with a handgun, and a box of ammo.. I always trusted my children around guns, and with good reason. Now when my Grand Children come over they are exposed to loaded guns in my home, and they don't even look at them. They have been raised with the same education and awareness of firearms, I raised my children with. It works 100% if done correctly. I also sent my kids to gun safety classes, but you can't totally rely on what someone else teaches your kids, regarding as to what, and how, you teach them.

I get just as upset when I hear about accidental shootings by children, but I don't view locking guns up as the solution. Unless you expose, and educate your children about firearms, they will always have that deadly curiosity, that is what gets them killed!

GS

splattergun
May 6, 2013, 06:50 PM
I think we're missing something.
We are discussing training your child vs. locking up the firearms. The fact of the matter is, either way, it's the parents' fault when 5 year old children get loaded firearms and shoot people. You want to say it's a training issue? Fine, the parents are at fault for not training their children. You want to say it's easily accessible firearms regarding small children? Fine, it's the parents' fault for making the access so easy.
Bottom line, when a 5 year old kills someone, it's more than likely the fault of the parent.
I couldn't agree more.

gamestalker
May 6, 2013, 06:55 PM
I just wanted to add one more element to my already long reply. My wife and I did not buy toy guns for our children to play with. Toy guns contradict safe gun handling in every respect, in my opinion. The closest thing to a toy gun our kids ever knew, was a pellet gun. And they treated them no different than a real firearm when hunting, and target shooting. And they applied the same rules to them, as a cartridge firing gun while they were home alone, hands off!

GS

ApacheCoTodd
May 6, 2013, 07:37 PM
"Gun owners are shooting ourselves in the foot with our kids and not locking up guns"
*some* Gun owners are shooting *them*selves in the foot with *their* kids and not locking up *their* guns

beatledog7
May 6, 2013, 08:13 PM
I live alone, so none of my firearms are within reach of a child. When my daughter (17) is on the premises, she knows how to treat them. She has handled and knows how to safety check each and everyone of them, and has fired more than a few of them.

There's not a way in the world she'd touch any of them in my absence unless she was in the house alone and the need for SD arose. She knows where the loaded ones are, and she knows when and how to use them.

I readily grant that there's a huge difference between a 17-yr-old girl and a single-digit-yr old boy. (When my daughter was that age I was not a gun owner, though I would have been had I been as aware as I am today.) But as I posted on page 1, there is no standard safety rule about locking guns away. There is one about keeping them unloaded until they're to be used (NRA #3), and following that one would have saved the life of this little girl.

Let us not forget that in many nations gun owners must by law keep all guns locked away, and in some places they can't even have them in their homes. If we insist on lambasting gun owners who choose to solve the issue of children and firearms in a way other than locks and keys, we are headed down that path. Woe be unto us if we let that happen.

Frank Ettin
May 6, 2013, 08:36 PM
...If we insist on lambasting gun owners who choose to solve the issue of children and firearms in a way other than locks and keys, we are headed down that path. Woe be unto us if we let that happen. If we don't lock up our guns and nothing bad happens, everything is fine. But if we don't lock up our guns and something bad happens like happened in Florida or Kentucky, the incident could have been prevented by having the guns locked up.

Yes, we know that it can be desirable to have a loaded gun immediately available. We deal with that concern by my keeping a gun on my person or in a lock-box.

We have several lock-boxes around the house. They can be opened using a key-touch combination code. They are mechanical so don't rely on power or batteries. They can be quickly opened without looking. They are not easily visible but are easily accessible if one knows that they are there. They are bolted down and thus not readily moveable. Each contains a loaded gun, extra ammunition and a Surefire flashlight. They weren't terribly expensive. In this way, we have a loaded gun easily and quickly accessible to either my wife or me wherever we might be in the house. But the gun is not readily accessible to anyone else.

Keeping guns locked up will substantially reduce the risk of something like what was described in the OP happening. We can do that without impairing our ability to respond to an emergency.

Why are we so resistance to reducing unnecessary risk to innocents?

Walkalong
May 6, 2013, 08:42 PM
There is a big difference in keeping guns locked up because it is smart, and a whole nother thing to be ordered to have all guns locked away with ammo locked up somewhere else.

I said earlier and will say again, if guns are not under our direct supervision, they should be locked up.

That does not stop us from having a gun handy for self defense.

I do understand the slippery slope angle, I really do. We just need to keep fighting for or gun rights so that locking guns up stays our decision.

Arkansas Paul
May 6, 2013, 08:52 PM
Why are we so resistance to reducing unnecessary risk to innocents?

I know many here are not fans of Bill Maher and I totally understand why. However, he said something the other day that fits this situation. He was talking of the lack of bi-partisanship and said that if Michelle Obama said that everyone should be healthy, republicans would close their garage doors, crank their cars and eat bacon grease out of a coffee can. This mentality carries over to us as well.

I think everything now days is getting to the point where everything is so cut and dried that the least little thing is construed as weakness and giving in to the other side when that's not the case at all. For some reason, people think that taking responsibility for your firearms is somehow anti-gun.

We talk about the 4 rules all the time but there should be a 5th as well. Keep your guns out of unsupervised childrens' hands if you can at all help it.

I'm not for any new gun legislation, but it is my responsibility as a gun owner to be in control of my guns and who has access to them at all times. And if I fail that responsibility and someone is hurt or killed as a result of my negligence, I should be held accountable.

beatledog7
May 6, 2013, 08:55 PM
I agree--locking them up or not needs to be a personal choice for which one faces the music if things go awry. I have no problem with anyone wanting to lock HIS guns up, as long as he doesn't try to make me lock MINE up.

If my home were at any time to play host to anyone whose habits and propensities I don't know, they would all get locked up. That's my choice, not a mandate, and hopefully it will always be that way.

It's not about the age of the person, but the trust he or she has engendered. There are lots of 30-yr-olds with whom I am acquainted who know nothing about guns except that it'd be cool to handle them. No, thanks.

Walkalong
May 6, 2013, 08:59 PM
It's not about the age of the person, but the trust he or she has engendered.Agreed. Under direct supervision, or with people you trust, which means they have earned that trust by behavior patterns. I would not worry about a gun being out or the safe open with my 21 year old son around. Not in the least.

kalel33
May 6, 2013, 10:29 PM
MSM are a huge component of this. Whenever there's accidental gun death, MSM jumps all over it to demonize THE GUN. An accidental death by any other means is, of course, brushed aside as tragic but normal. A drowning is not blamed on the pool. A traffic death is not blamed on the car.

Same thing happens with Pitbulls. They post articles that get clicks, which lead to revenue. If a Pit just growls at someone then it's front page. If a kid shot another kid with a bb gun it'd get front page too, which we did do when I was little.

JohnBT
May 6, 2013, 10:48 PM
"I really can't beleive any responsible gun owner would look at this and throw up their hands like, "Oh, there's nothing that could have been done!" Yes there was, and you damned well know it."

You must be addressing somebody else, because I know I sure as hell didn't say any of the words you're putting in my mouth.

John

hovercat
May 6, 2013, 11:35 PM
RE: trust. Does not apply to 5 year old kids and guns but....
Kids should be raised so that we can TRUST them to earn a living, vote responsibly, and raise our grandkids by age 18.
There really is no lesson to be gained from this tragedy. Someone was careless with a firearm and a child died because of it. Society cannot and should not legislate every aspect within a home. Climbing a tree is dangerous. Life is dangerous. Some exposure to life and the dangerous world is necessary before we are out on our own.
Was this too early? Obviously. But we cannot legislate everything and stay a free society. The loss for the family is horrible. But the loss of the spirit of liberty in a society is worse.
I have seen children grow up who never spent a single minute playing without an adult watching them. It is no wonder that they want .gov to tell them what to do.

Powder burn
May 7, 2013, 02:21 AM
It does not matter how you train them, there is no need to have young children having access to firearms and ammunition without adult supervision. Eventually somewhere someplace some kid will do something stupid and lives are changed forever.
Children have little brains full of mush. firearms must be given the respect they deserve. I get very angry when I read these stories, they just give gun grabbers more reasons to act and more statistics.

Dean1818
May 7, 2013, 05:03 AM
I have 2 extremely quick access safes in the house for home defense pistols.

My wife and I know the keypad combination.

All other guns in the house are trigger locked and unloaded. A fullsize safe is in the works.


I have two teenagers who dont have the combination nor the keys to the rifles

One of my kiddos has mild depression. I DOUBT that anything would happen........ But I couldnt function if something did.

Both kids shoot regularly, and continue to get close supervision when they do.

I think there is a time and a place for everything. Some kids cannot handle the freedom or responsibility.

I think some parents may be pushing their kids into shooting and having access to loaded weapons a bit too soon. IMHO.

Some kids at 10 are better than kids at 17. Just because you were the responsible gun owner at 8, dont ASSUME that your kid is equally responsible at 12.

Some kids have friends that are literal morons........ Who would LOVE for the opportunity to play with a gun...... Kids with zero training....... These kids are a timebomb waiting to go off in a gun owners home.......

I had a classmate killed in grade school by a "responsible" older brother, she was 11.

An absolute tragedy

I am sure her parents felt that her brother was mature and able to handle a gun.....

FOLKS...... THEY WERE ABSOLUTELY WRONG!

If the internet were available at the time of the shooting, their father or mother might have been posting how responsible and trained THEIR kids were with firearms....

I lean more toward the safe side.

Texan Scott
May 7, 2013, 05:36 AM
I have NEVER taken a single safety precaution with a gun just to keep the rest of y'all from looking bad.

I do it because I love my kids.

Not sayin' other people don't ... Just sayin'.

Sam1911
May 7, 2013, 05:47 AM
There really is no lesson to be gained from this tragedy. Someone was careless with a firearm and a child died because of it.

These two statements contradict each other directly.

We may say, "This lesson is redundant, because I already have strict safety practices and would NEVER leave a (loaded? cocked? ... or ANY) gun with unattended children." But there IS a lesson here to be learned, as obviously not all gun owners have heard and understood.

(Or had the imagination and intelligence to figure it out on their own.)

Sam1911
May 7, 2013, 06:06 AM
I don't really even see this Kentucky tragedy as, necessarily, a case for locking up guns. This was just gross negligence that could have been avoided with far less parental care than investing in a gun safe. Maybe (?) we all accept that and some are just not willing to come out and admit it, I don't know.

...

However, on the question of keeping guns locked up:

I must say it does seem that for many of us the argument that we grew up with guns and ammo were stored in an unlocked closet, or otherwise easily available, and our strong desire not to have to spend the money or go to the trouble (or give up the "freedom", I guess, though I don't get that one) to get a gun cabinet or safe or good locks on a closet (etc.), appears to really equate to acceptance that if our kids are too foolish, or too dumb, or too sneaky, (or their friends are) and they do something horribly tragic, well, that's just life and these things happen and that's an acceptable price to pay for...well, whatever. The "freedom" not to lock things up, I guess.

I'm not sure why we'd be so very resistant. Shoot, when most of us grew up no parents used car safety seats. These days many fewer kids die in car accidents. Same with safety precautions on many other items. From pill bottle tops to safety rails around stairways, and on and on. Nothing's perfect, of course, and a very determined young person, as they get older, may indeed defeat even a heightened level of security. But does that mean we should not make the effort for the benefit of our families?

It is a very cavalier way of thinking, indeed, that says a little money spent and a little effort exerted to very significantly reduce the chances that our kids will DIE this way just aren't worth it.

...

Paraphrasing an old MADD advertisement I remember from childhood, if you won't do it to save your kids' lives, do it because guns are valuable and you don't want them stolen!

leprechaun50
May 7, 2013, 06:18 AM
Re: my post #30. The times are changing and sometimes its best to change with them.









;\

Arkansas Paul
May 7, 2013, 07:45 AM
Eventually somewhere someplace some kid will do something stupid and lives are changed forever.
Children have little brains full of mush.

Yeah I agree.
I took Developmental Psychology a couple semesters ago and our instructor told us that the part of the brain responsible for decision making wasn't fully developed until about 18. If that's true, and I figure he knew what he was talking about, it doesn't matter how well you train your kids. They'll make dumb choices now and then. If one of those dumb choices is made with a loaded gun you left laying around, well the consequences are pretty dire.

Gaffer
May 7, 2013, 08:20 AM
I have not read all of the thread pages but a good part of the problem today is that parents are not parenting. The good book lays out how we should parent and I tried to do that and brought up two boys with loaded guns at my bedside and never had problem. I took them to a gravel pit as soon as they were old enough to reason and showed them what a bullet would do to a jug of liquid. I explained that the human body is largely liquid and what a bullet would do. When they grew old enough to tell me why they never messed with my guns, they both said that that little demonstration was most impressive and was what impressed them so much to never even consider touching the guns.
Maybe I was just lucky or had smart kids but it worked in my case.

FAS1
May 7, 2013, 08:31 AM
Educate, take the mystery out of it and teach good gun safety. Even with that you will never know if that's enough for some until something bad happens. Make sure you continue to use your safes and handgun safes just to be sure.

When I designed mine, it was after one of my son's friends said "I know where your gun is" while I was in the garage reloading

Apparently my oldest showed him a .25 auto that I kept in my toolbox. It was the only gun that was not in the safe at the time and I spent a lot of time in the garage reloading back then. It was a real wake up call. They didn't touch it, but what if the friend grabbed it and said "Cool"? They were around 11 or 12 at that time. Thank God nothing happened, but that's when I decided to make what I wanted in a handgun safe and now that my kids are grown I still use it for my G17 for home defense.

So, in my opinion do all that you can to teach them, but don't take for granted that they will ALWAYS make the right decision, especially around friends. My dad had guns all over the house and I never had an interest in them growing up. I was too busy riding motorcycles and didn't get into guns until I had my own home.

bigdaa
May 7, 2013, 10:23 AM
Since before we had sons (15 and 13) I had my safe. PERIOD.

Every gun I have is locked inside. That's the way it's always been with the critters running amok with their rugrat friends and now teen associates.

Their Red Ryders had places in the safe!

I could not face the future being responsible for anyone's death and heartache.

In teaching people gun safety and operation, I never leave out the very first thing: PROPER GUN STORAGE!

I tell em to get a safe, and a decent sized one because with guns you can never have enough ;).


Nobody is ever going to stumble onto a loaded gun in my home. Nobody.

Sam1911
May 7, 2013, 10:36 AM
My assumption that it was locked is just as valid as your assumption that it was not.

The quote "in place and operational" lead me to my assumption.

The fact that the gun fired lead you to yours.
How's that again? :D

In place and locked but the gun fired would equal NON-operational.

In place and operation but the gun fired would equal NOT locked.

Akita1
May 7, 2013, 10:38 AM
Yeah I agree.
I took Developmental Psychology a couple semesters ago and our instructor told us that the part of the brain responsible for decision making wasn't fully developed until about 18. If that's true, and I figure he knew what he was talking about, it doesn't matter how well you train your kids. They'll make dumb choices now and then. If one of those dumb choices is made with a loaded gun you left laying around, well the consequences are pretty dire.
Agreed - I read recently that the prefrontal cortex isn't fully developed until mid-20's, which may explain why before that age (and sometimes after of course) we do things outside the realm of cognitive reasoning. For my part, my kids know the four rules, know how to shoot and will still never have unsupervised access to the guns in our home. Further, their friends' parents are notified upfront that we have them in the home, they're all locked up, etc. Mitigating the risk is the answer here, IMHO.

bassdogs
May 7, 2013, 10:40 AM
will respond when I digest the comments on this thread. this happened in my backyard and wife attended the funeral on Sat. On several levels, this hit home. At this point I am both saddened and infuriated by what happened. This was not an accident no matter how you look at it. The reality is that the 2 yr old could have easily been the shooter and the brother or mother the victim. The gun was there for the taking and required no training, skill, or strength to fire. Truth is that it could have slid to the ground when the door slammed or it was bumped by the vacumn.

OK my head has cleared and I think Sam 11 has it pretty much dead on. So many talk about locks and safes, safety training, or exposing youngsters to firearms at a very early age. Each of which has merit and shortcomings in preventing an incident of this type.

Over the days since this happened, I have mulled it over in my mind hundreds of times. This is primarily a case of total lack of parental responsibility and failure to provide a safe home for their children. As Sam pointed out, the cricket requires that a striker be manually pulled. the gun was left fully ready to fire and we are to believe that no one new. I don't buy it. Parents, family and friends need to open their eyes and make sure their homes are safe for the kids that frequent them. This is not accusing anyone or taking sides as to what is correct. Just that we should not take for granted that our kids, grandkids, or neighors kids are safe. Take a second look and act accordingly.

Accidents can and will happen. All we can do is to minimize the opportunities for mayhem. No one can look at a situation where a gun that looks like a toy, is fully loaded and ready to fire, and is left where it is in easy reach of a child or even the family dog; and still refer to an incident like this as "AN ACCIDENT".

Manco
May 7, 2013, 02:47 PM
I don't see how it's a bad idea to control access to our own firearms, especially when young children, no matter how well trained they may be, are around--it's the responsible thing to do. Older children (of varying age) who you know you can trust may be given independent access to loaded firearms for defensive purposes, but short of that I think it's a good and very prudent idea to keep one's firearms locked away securely when young children and visitors are around (at the very least). Why tempt fate, even if it's one's family tradition to do so?

Defensive firearms, as pointed out earlier, can be made readily available in a hurry yet remain secure the rest of the time. The very best such devices are the ones that use a mechanical push-button combination lock such as the Simplex--these are dead-reliable, require no batteries or other power source, have no backup key to be lost by the right people or found by the wrong people, and are very quick to unlock (when you have the combination), even in the dark.

As for the recent case in Kentucky involving a 5-year-old brother who accidentally shot and killed his 2-year-old sister, that was a case of gross, I would say criminal negligence on the part of the parents, involving multiple failures in judgment and firearms handling practice, which is particularly glaring given the design and intended function of the rifle involved. This may have been an "accident" on the boy's part, but not with regard to his parents, in my opinion. This tragedy was completely avoidable.

j1
May 7, 2013, 03:07 PM
Any parent allowing his child access to a firearm is a fool. I do not usually speak this strongly and do not like to insult people but that is what I think.

Sam1911
May 7, 2013, 03:14 PM
Let's make a bit of an adjustment:

"Any parent allowing his young child unsupervised access to a firearm is a fool."

Most of us allow our children all the access they desire, so long as they ask and touch ONLY under Mom or Dad's direct supervision.
And many of us allow older children (late teenagers) to shoot and/or hunt at times without us being right there.

Those are very positive things. The distinction becomes important because there are plenty of folks out in the world who really DO want to not allow children ANY access to guns EVER. That's a very negative thing, and we need to make the difference abundantly clear.

X-JaVeN-X
May 7, 2013, 04:27 PM
Educating your kids is one thing, but assuming that kids always do what they're told is a stupid and dangerous assumption.

How many kids are told from the time they can comprehend that they shouldn't smoke, do drugs, etc, because they can cause them serious harm? ... Now how many still do any of the above options?

Of course educate your kids on gun safety...but don't assume that your kids are somehow immune from immaturity and bad decision making. Doing so is a dangerous game to play...especially when it comes to guns.

JFtheGR8
May 7, 2013, 06:07 PM
When I was taking one of those mandatory healthcare education courses required for my particular degree the instructor gave us a statistic about how most people only have a fourth grade reading level. If that is the case then what do you think they are capable of teaching their kids. I'm not going to dig up the source so don't ask. I figure it's probably reliable and in my exposure to the public through 10+ years of patient care I would attest to it. Guns in the home of small children should be secured. There's a difference between secured and locked up too. Not all gun owners are THR either. The members here are exceptional for the most part. I'm with Ron on the PSA's but I don't think the anti gunners would go for it since they want total confiscation.


Posted from Thehighroad.org App for Android

Sam Cade
May 7, 2013, 06:29 PM
When I was taking one of those mandatory healthcare education courses required for my particular degree the instructor gave us a statistic about how most people only have a fourth grade reading level.<snip> I'm not going to dig up the source so don't ask.


...study by lead scientist Jermy S, the most comprehensive study of literacy ever commissioned by the U.S. government, was released in April 2002 and reapplied in 2003 giving trend data. It involved lengthy interviews of over 90,700 adults statistically balanced for age, gender, ethnicity, education level, and location (urban, suburban, or rural) in 12 states across the U.S. and was designed to represent the U.S. population as a whole. This government study showed that 21% to 23% of adult Americans were not "able to locate information in text", could not "make low-level inferences using printed materials", and were unable to "integrate easily identifiable pieces of information."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_in_the_United_States#National_Assessment_of_Adult_Literacy_.28NAAL.29

JohnBT
May 7, 2013, 07:14 PM
" It involved lengthy interviews of over 90,700 adults "

I declare that to be useless information. I interviewed people at work for decades - and then I got to test them at length and even recommend spending money for more testing prior to recommending training, education, work or whatever I thought was needed. I also had access to school transcripts, psychologicals and medical reports.

The stories told matched the facts about half the time. No wonder employers think all applications are full of lies.


So the study involved lengthy interviews. Big whoop. Waste of money.

"study showed that 21% to 23%"

The percentage is likely much higher. :)

Savage99
May 7, 2013, 10:03 PM
Good topic USMarine.

Thanks

If you enjoyed reading about "Gun owners are shooting ourselves in the foot with our kids and not locking up guns" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!