Former Sheriff Deputy Advising Carrying on Empty Chamber


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johnandersonoutdoors
May 6, 2013, 11:30 AM
Hey everyone,

I was talking with a coworker this morning who is fairly new to owning guns. He visited fam and friends last weekend back in Ohio.

One of his friends is a former sheriff deputy. Of course they spent some time talking about guns and such. My coworker got his conceal permit and is planning on a .380 I think. Well I guess the two of them were talking about carrying concealed and his buddy (former sheriff deputy) says that he was taught in police academy to carry on empty chamber and load a round as you draw.

I feel like his is joking with my friend because that sounds so ridiculous. Is that taught in any police academies?

Personally I carried with empty chamber for a little while on my M&P9 but have changed that practice. I can't imagine law enforcement doing it.

I guess it is personal choice and some law enforcement do it? Apparently the former sheriff deputy mentioned the benefit that if someone grabs his gun it won't fire because it the chamber is empty. That could definitely save your life in a situation where your gun is taken from you but I never thought for a second LEO would carry empty.

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steveno
May 6, 2013, 11:42 AM
I can't believe that something like that would be taught at an police academy to officers. how a private citizen decides to carry a ccw I guess that is up to the citizen however I don't think that would be very wise.

mrvco
May 6, 2013, 11:45 AM
Without getting into the "Condition 3" carry debate... the possibility that the former deputy's academy taught C3 carry would not surprise me in and by itself.

ChaoSS
May 6, 2013, 11:47 AM
Keep in mind that there are a lot of firearms instructors that don't know what they are talking about. You hear these stories all the time, heard one the other day that the military uses the .223 round because those rounds are configured to hit bones and follow the bone and do maximum tissue damage....


It's entirely possible that some small police academy somewhere teaches this, because their firearms instructor heard this at some point and it made sense to him. So now he just teaches it.

scaatylobo
May 6, 2013, 11:59 AM
I was an LEO and a firearms instr and NEVER would I have told ANYONE including a cizilian to carry an EMPTY GUN.

Try loading [ use dummy rounds of course ] a pistol under any stress with ONE HAND.

Your most likely to only have ONE hand as the other is opening a door,fighting off an assault,or damaged.

It can be done,IF you train every week and that mean every week and all year every year.

That advise is for someone who is afraid of guns,and THEY should not carry one = simple.

john wall
May 6, 2013, 12:09 PM
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh175/ShootingCoach/license.jpg (http://s256.photobucket.com/user/ShootingCoach/media/license.jpg.html)

Have performed and taken LEO training in a number of states, never saw or heard of this crap.

"Deputy" is an idiot. Period. I bet money HE did not carry EC. Only idiots and beginners do this.

Greg528iT
May 6, 2013, 12:11 PM
http://www.military-quotes.com/forum/israeli-draw-people-other-countries-t76804.html

If it's good enough for the Israeli Army it's good enough for a Sheriff's department. I've not found evidence Israel is still carry ing in that condition or not.

Al Thompson
May 6, 2013, 12:14 PM
Hopefully, it was a mis-communication. Hopefully.

Otherwise, it's a sign of a severe lack of training. :uhoh:

kwguy
May 6, 2013, 12:15 PM
That beginner will probably figure it out eventually. Personal CCW techniqes continually evolve, and individuals' comfort levels may change from when they first start carrying. Along with that evolution will most likely be a change in the weapon condition status.

As far as someone actually instructing to do that, that person could be a total idiot, or could be someone who is taking into consideration the 'lowest common denominator' when giving someone some general advice.

Certainly, carrying on an empty chamber is better than not having one on you at all, but you sure do limit your options when the weapon must 'be readied' prior to use.

nathan
May 6, 2013, 12:19 PM
I do carry condition 3 at times but i cc k the hammer with empty chamber so when its time to rack the slide, it is easier.

W.E.G.
May 6, 2013, 12:23 PM
I highly doubt that any modern police academy teaches such a method.
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..
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627PCFan
May 6, 2013, 01:01 PM
"Former Sheriff Deputy"
maybe for a reason

RBid
May 6, 2013, 01:24 PM
I have the empty chamber carry conversation at least once each week. It's generally someone getting ready to secure their CHL, and shopping for a carry weapon. Frequently, the subject comes up as someone looking at pocket .380s says something to the effect of, "I guess it doesn't matter if this LCP/P3AT/etc doesn't have a safety. You shouldn't have a round in the chamber, anyway."

The best answer I've found is to point out that 0-5 foot engagements are common, and to pull a flashlight out of my pocket. I stand at five feet, and say, "pretend this is a knife. How do you feel about your chances of clearing your cover garment, drawing, committing both hands to rack the slide, getting on target, and getting enough rounds on me to stop you, before I stab you? Keep in mind that committing both hands to racking means that you have no hands to hold me off."

That usually settles that, but some guys still opt to tell me how it is. When that happens, I advise that they seek training, and give them a list of places to find it.

481
May 6, 2013, 01:29 PM
Perhaps the former LEO dispensing this poor advice was trained to carry a single round in his shirt pocket? :evil:

bikerdoc
May 6, 2013, 01:29 PM
I went through my academy in 71, any such talk would have been scoffed at.

Zeke/PA
May 6, 2013, 01:34 PM
In the past, I have advised folks to purchase for home defence/CCW , a revolver rather than an auto for this reason.
With someone who is not a shooter, an auto might be difficult to get into quick action considering De-cockers, safeties etc.

bannockburn
May 6, 2013, 01:45 PM
Just the thought of trying to rack the slide of a pistol to chamber a round prior to some sort of armed encounter seems to be a really bad idea, both in theory and in actual use. I can only imagine the possible number of things that could go wrong in that scenario. For me Condition One has been and always will be the way I carry my CCW.

returningfire
May 6, 2013, 02:11 PM
What good is an empty handgun? If there isn't one in the chute then it may as well be empty in a panic situation. Maybe in a cowboy gun that doesn't have a transfer bar it would be a good idea to have the hammer resting on an empty cylinder. But for a self defense weapon I can't think of a good reason to carry it without having one in the tube.

BSA1
May 6, 2013, 02:18 PM
It sure looks cool when Tommy Lee Jones chambers a round while chasing Harrison Ford in "The Fugitive."

bolthead
May 6, 2013, 03:31 PM
Idk. I think carrying on empty chamber is a good stage to start on for beginners. And class instructors probably assume that most people in class are beginners. After all self-inflicted gunshot wounds make one feel pretty stupid, not to mention they do nothing to resolve the situation when one had to draw a gun in the first place.

Frank Ettin
May 6, 2013, 03:33 PM
I'm not aware of any major law enforcement agency, any major school or any major instructor recommending carrying a gun with an empty chamber.

rondog
May 6, 2013, 03:36 PM
Personally, any semi-auto that has a manual safety, I'll carry with one in the chamber. Pistols like Glocks, I don't trust 'em and don't own any. Anything that has a striker that cocks upon chambering and I have no way to lock that striker, makes me nervous. A 1911 cocked and locked makes me happy. A DA revolver makes me happy. A DA semi-auto with a thumb safety and a hammer makes me happy. I prefer handguns with controls on them.

Just my feelings and opinion.

General Geoff
May 6, 2013, 04:21 PM
rondog,

what about DA/SA striker-fired auto with decocker?

herrwalther
May 6, 2013, 04:32 PM
The only time I would ever promote carry on an empty chamber would be an older revolver that doesn't have a transfer bar safety. And it has been awhile since I have seen those.

I used to carry on an empty chamber when I was new to it and very green around the gills about carrying concealed. It was on a DA/SA semi-auto and had an irrational fear that it would discharge in the holster, even on DA. So I did a little testing that really built my confidence. With an empty firearm of course I holstered it in all my holsters from various angles and even introduced some obstructions into the holster to see if the trigger was ever pulled enough to discharge the pistol. Never happened on DA.

Deanimator
May 6, 2013, 05:33 PM
Here in Ohio not too long ago, a couple of drug addled ignoramuses jumped a guy pumping gas in a Dayton service station.

They hit him from front and rear simultaneously, and it was all he could do to hold them off until he could draw. He shot one of them twice in the abdomen and the other took off.

By the victim's own admission, if he hadn't been carrying with a round in the chamber, his assailants probably would have prevailed, leaving them with his gun, and him at their mercy.

A deadly force situation is dangerous and complicated enough. Why create a disadvantage for yourself and an advantage for your wouldbe killer by carrying with an empty chamber?

hariph creek
May 6, 2013, 05:43 PM
Reminds me of people who don't wear their seatbelts. Using the profound logic..."if I'm about to get in an accident, I'll pull it on real quick!"

Cosmoline
May 6, 2013, 05:45 PM
For some reason my mind does well with big movements, but sucks with little switches and doo-dads. If I carried SA I'd absolutely go with nothing in the pipe and just rack the slide. But instead I just use a revolver or a semi that does not rely on a safety switch.

PRM
May 6, 2013, 06:52 PM
Just personal experience, I've been an LEO for 36 years, the last 15 have been as a firearms instructor at our state academy. That's just plain nutts, I've never heard of any law enforcement academy in the US teaching that.

johnandersonoutdoors
May 6, 2013, 07:02 PM
Thanks for the thoughts everyone. I will probably show my friend some instructional videos and thoughts by others on carrying with one in the chamber and let him make up his own mind.

When he told me that this morning, I didn't want to just blurt out that I thought his former sheriff buddy was nuts.

I personally carry an M&P9 with no safeties on it and one in the chamber. Maybe I am crazy, but I am confident that my raven concealment holster completely covers the trigger area and it is safe to carry a semi with one in the chamber.

gamestalker
May 6, 2013, 07:06 PM
How ridiculous! I know the older revolvers were prone to AD's if dropped on the hammer, so carrying on an empty cylinder was considered a safety thing. But as for carrying an AL pistol with an empty chamber, is just going to slow the process of SD dramatically. But to think that LE would teach, or do this, is ridiculous.

GS

Extreme moderate
May 6, 2013, 07:36 PM
There's a very effective and inexpensive way to demonstrate the issues with this to your friend, assuming that you're both in decent health. Get a magic marker (preferably red), an airsoft pistol that requires racking the slide before firing, and an old tshirt. Have your friend wear the old tshirt and put the airsoft (un-racked) in his waistband. Start five feet away with the cap off of the magic marker. Using it as a "knife," see what kind of artwork you can draw on the old tshirt he's wearing before he can rack the slide... And afterward, see if he was fond of any organs lying underneath the artwork. Just a thought ;)

Risky
May 6, 2013, 08:13 PM
The truth is if you can't be trusted carrying with a chambered round... you probably shouldn't be carrying at all.

However, most people that go condition 3 do so because they lack confidence in their skills and/or familiarity with their pistol. Training solves both.

Carry condition one and know that you're safer by doing so... not in more danger.

Shovelhead
May 6, 2013, 08:18 PM
Another Deputy Sheriff that recomends carrying with an empty chamber.

Better yet, keep your ammunition in your shirt pocket.

zoom6zoom
May 6, 2013, 08:48 PM
Only if it's a Single Action Army....

GEM
May 6, 2013, 09:34 PM
I've always thought unchambered carry was ridiculous after breaking my wrist and being in a serious cast for awhile and also taking an injured shooter class.

Why handicap yourself?

So here's a funny anecdote on the issue also. At the IDPA match we had a stage, where you started with your gun unchambered and next to a sink where you were washing your hands (a big bowl of water). At the buzzer, you had to grab the gun and rack it.

Well, some folks wiped their hands before the rack and then went on. I was concerned about time (duh) and immediately went for the rack. Well, the sun screen on my paws and the water turned Teflon and my hand just slide off the slick slide with a partial grip - causing a malfunction. Try to clear in, just slide off, - couldn't put the gun down, so I had to wipe my hands on my pants, one at a time. Then clear a nasty double feed on a 1911.

My time was enough for the dinosaurs to become extinct. Bah.

Point is that you can screw up a rack - blood on your hands, for instance.

beatledog7
May 6, 2013, 09:43 PM
Every conceivable SD situation that requires that I draw and in all likelihood fire has me doing that without time to chamber a round. I would not carry on an empty chamber unless required to by ROE (been there, done that).

58limited
May 6, 2013, 09:46 PM
Carrying on an empty chamber is crazy. I carry a .380 in my glove box when traveling: round in chamber and safety off until I reach my destination, then safety on. If something happens on the road I don't want any encumbrance if I'm trying to drive with one hand and grab the gun with the other, I don't even want to fumble with the safety in a sudden tense situation.

Rock185
May 7, 2013, 12:25 AM
johnanderson, An old guy's .02 worth. I know I'm probably not as bright as your friend's former deputy sheriff friend and I don't pretend to be a Ninja/Combat Master/"Operator',etc. That being said, I have been in LE most of my adult life, am a firearms instructor, have had many contacts with other LE organizations , their officers and instructors, have trained at Gunsite, 10-8, etc. and have NEVER encountered any instructor or organization teaching to carry with an empty chamber. I am aware of the Israeli empty chamber carry, etc. I can say with certainty though that one may not have both hands free to feed a round into an empty chamber, and, hand cycling a round into the empty chamber in a dynamic, violent, and obviously stressful, situation is just asking for a failure of that round to properly chamber. I always had a round chambered,but can speak to the predicament of not having both hands free during a sudden violent encounter with an armed suspect. I have personally experienced that...ymmv

Texshooter
May 7, 2013, 12:29 AM
after talking with this new gun owner, the former LEO saw or heard something that made him think it would be in EVERYONES best interest if this person started out in C3?

Maybe until he feels more confident carrying, or has more training, or something else.

Deer_Freak
May 7, 2013, 12:43 AM
We don't know the situation. The particular person might have appeared to be clumsy with a gun. Not having made a decision should I carry with a round in the chamber certainly would lead the officer to believe the person had little or no experience with a gun. I would advise someone who has no experience with guns other than the class to get a carry permit to carry the gun without a shell in the chamber.

Cee Zee
May 7, 2013, 01:45 AM
Carrying a revolver on an empty chamber is not the same as carrying an auto with no round in the pipe. You'll still get off a round if you pull the trigger on that revolver. It just won't go off if you drop it on the hammer. So for someone really paranoid about carrying that is the best route to go. The only downside is you'll be carrying one less round in the cylinder.

But between carrying a semi-auto with no round in the chamber and carrying a assisted opening knife I'll take the knife for any conflict inside of 10 feet. It's much easier to flick that release button than it is to rack a slide and hope nothing goes wrong from stress. And a good pocket knife can do significant damage to a bad guy. But of course what I really do is carry a semi-auto with a round in the tube and ready to rock.

I don't really see a big problem with carrying an auto with a SA trigger either. With enough training releasing a safety becomes second nature. I know under stress that has to be engrained in the brain. That's a big reason I like to stick with one carry weapon at a time. I have backups of course and some are DA and some are SA with safeties. I want to be ready with whatever I'm carrying without having to think about it. That time you take to think can get you killed.

I actually like SA pistols. To me I feel like I can get off a round quicker when releasing a safety and pulling a SA trigger over using a long pull DA trigger. It's close either way but second shots definitely are advantage SA. I can fire about twice as fast using a SA trigger once I get to the second shot. That's particularly helpful if you're facing more than one bad guy. Heck I sat through an armed robbery where there were 6 guys with guns inside a McDonalds and another guy outside that no one saw. I was sitting near the front door where hardly anyone comes in. I was one table away from that door in fact. And the moron sitting at the table next to the door decided to play hero and jumped up and ran out that door. The good Lord was watching out for me that night because not one of the bad guys saw him. If they had me and my wife would have been sitting ducks for six shooters shooting my way from up at the counter and another bozo outside creating a crossfire. That was before concealed carry unfortunately. But if I did have a pistol I would have wanted a SA. Yeah there's very little chance going up against seven guys in a crossfire. The only thing worse I can think of is being a sitting duck with a seven man crossfire.

alsaqr
May 7, 2013, 09:32 AM
The former deputy can carry his gun any way he likes too. i'll continue to carry mine in condition 1.

SouthernBoy
May 7, 2013, 10:16 AM
A few months ago, a rather spirited discussion about this very topic ensued on GlockTalk.com. I am giving the link if you are interested. Suffice it to say that a number of self-imagined gun gurus had a good time educating the masses in their lofty "knowledge?" (what is it they say about opinions??). I was a little dumbstruck at some of the responses and tried to advance the idea that it was a personal decision.

The answer to the question of whether or not you should carry a semi-automatic handgun with a chambered round will be answered should you ever find yourself in immediate and extreme need of your handgun. And even then, you will only know if your decision was correct or wrong for that specific case.... if you survive.

My opinion is simple. It is entirely a personal matter and a personal choice. I do carry chambered and wouldn't dream of doing otherwise. But I see nothing wrong with someone who chooses not to do this as it is their well being at stake... not mine. Let them do as they see fit. Chances are, they will live out their life with never having to use their firearm and be convinced their decision was correct.

Most of the responders here have offered very good and valid reasons to carry chambered and I agree with all of them. I do not trust that an incident will happen like in the movies or on TV where you so frequently see police or citizens racking their slides as they go off to confront evil doers. No sir, only a fool would think this and evil people do not suffer fools. One should always consider the worse case scenario and work backward from that. Otherwise you will be left trying to catch the curve. But there is also this.

You never know what you're going to do in an extreme encounter until it is actually staring you in the face, unless you have similar experience from past encounters. So as someone here mentioned, why on earth would you hamper yourself of such an important factor of gun carrying when seconds and distance could be in extremely short order?

Hard to imagine an LEO dispersing this sort of information to all who would listen. It would be very interesting to hear how he carried his duty gun.

PabloJ
May 7, 2013, 10:20 AM
Hey everyone,

I was talking with a coworker this morning who is fairly new to owning guns. He visited fam and friends last weekend back in Ohio.

One of his friends is a former sheriff deputy. Of course they spent some time talking about guns and such. My coworker got his conceal permit and is planning on a .380 I think. Well I guess the two of them were talking about carrying concealed and his buddy (former sheriff deputy) says that he was taught in police academy to carry on empty chamber and load a round as you draw.

I feel like his is joking with my friend because that sounds so ridiculous. Is that taught in any police academies?

Personally I carried with empty chamber for a little while on my M&P9 but have changed that practice. I can't imagine law enforcement doing it.

I guess it is personal choice and some law enforcement do it? Apparently the former sheriff deputy mentioned the benefit that if someone grabs his gun it won't fire because it the chamber is empty. That could definitely save your life in a situation where your gun is taken from you but I never thought for a second LEO would carry empty.
It can actually be done with Makarov pistol and special holster that works the slide to chamber a round when the pistol is withdrawn from it. It's hard to believe but certain pistols like 1911, FN-HP and Tokarev have been designed to be carried with empty chamber. That is part of the reason I do not like them.

SouthernBoy
May 7, 2013, 12:17 PM
Posted by: PabloJ
It can actually be done with Makarov pistol and special holster that works the slide to chamber a round when the pistol is withdrawn from it. It's hard to believe but certain pistols like 1911, FN-HP and Tokarev have been designed to be carried with empty chamber. That is part of the reason I do not like them.

You can carry virtually any semi-auto pistol with an empty chamber and I fail to see how a 1911 was designed for this (please do cite, if you will). I know of no pistol that cannot be carried in less than full battery.

SouthernBoy
May 7, 2013, 12:20 PM
Posted by: rondog
Personally, any semi-auto that has a manual safety, I'll carry with one in the chamber. Pistols like Glocks, I don't trust 'em and don't own any. Anything that has a striker that cocks upon chambering and I have no way to lock that striker, makes me nervous. A 1911 cocked and locked makes me happy. A DA revolver makes me happy. A DA semi-auto with a thumb safety and a hammer makes me happy. I prefer handguns with controls on them.

Glocks have three safeties; one external and two internal. Frankly the external safety, their trigger safety, is a joke in my opinion. But their two internal safeties work beautifully as designed, and both "lock" the striker unless the user deliberately unlocks them by pulling the trigger.

r1derbike
May 7, 2013, 12:50 PM
Perhaps the former LEO dispensing this poor advice was trained to carry a single round in his shirt pocket? :evil:Hey, if it was good enough for Barney Fife!

rondog
May 7, 2013, 01:19 PM
rondog,

what about DA/SA striker-fired auto with decocker?


Such as what gun? If it's striker-fired, has a decocker, but doesn't have a hammer....then how would you re-cock it to make it ready again? I won't carry something like that.

If it has a hammer, and the decocker de-cocks the hammer, then it's not striker-fired, the hammer strikes a firing pin. To make it ready you simply disengage the safety/decocker and cock the hammer again. My PA-63 and Bersa Thunder .380 are like this, and I'll carry them with confidence.

I have a couple of .32 autos, a 1914 Mauser and a French MAB Model C. While both have safeties, they're striker fired with no hammers and the safeties only block the triggers, AFAIK. To the best of my knowledge, on both pistols the striker could be knocked off the sear, and the pistol could fire, even with the safety engaged. At least that's how it appears to me - I don't know those pistols well enough to trust them yet. I could be totally wrong.

And Glocks - I've never touched a Glock or any other similar pistol of the newer generations. All I know is if it doesn't have a hammer, and the only visible safety is a little flipper thing on the trigger itself, that makes me nervous. I've heard of too many "accidents" with Glocks going off because something got inside the trigger guard.

There was a cop here in my area that shot himself in the leg with his Glock, he was holstering it at the range and the hem of his jacket got in the trigger guard as the gun went in the holster, defeating the trigger safety and depressing the trigger. BANG.

rondog
May 7, 2013, 01:46 PM
FWIW - I prefer a 1911....chambered, cocked and locked, or "Condition 1". Clicking that safety off is very natural. I can disengage the safety on a 1911 as it's clearing the holster or as I'm bringing it up to bear, long before I can even see the sights. Or I can leave it engaged and keep my thumb on it, ready to disengage it in a split second. There's no thinking about it or looking for it, it's right under my thumb where it should be.

Second choice is either the PA-63 or Bersa .380 I mentioned above, also chambered, with the hammer down and the safety disengaged. They both have stiff enough DA triggers to be safe to carry like this, yet ready to fire in an instant.

Third choice is a DA revolver with a transfer bar to prevent firing from accidental hammer strikes such as dropping. Don't get much simpler than these, just draw and squeeze. I currently only have a S&W Model 49 snubbie w/5 shots, but have one of those Model 10 trade-ins ordered from Bud's.

Also have a "Spesco" DA .38 that's a bottom-shelf Taurus brand clone of a S&W, but that's not for carrying - that one's for hiding in the garage. Works fine, just not very accurate and I don't want anyone seeing me with it. Kinda like riding a moped or dating a fat girl.

Ranger Roberts
May 7, 2013, 02:10 PM
It can actually be done with Makarov pistol and special holster that works the slide to chamber a round when the pistol is withdrawn from it.

I saw one of these holster years ago. Weren't they discontinued due to soldiers shooting themselves in the leg while attempting to draw their weapon? I may be wrong but I sort of remember that is the reason they never caught on for any general purpose use.

SouthernBoy
May 7, 2013, 04:49 PM
Posted by: rondog
And Glocks - I've never touched a Glock or any other similar pistol of the newer generations. All I know is if it doesn't have a hammer, and the only visible safety is a little flipper thing on the trigger itself, that makes me nervous. I've heard of too many "accidents" with Glocks going off because something got inside the trigger guard.

There was a cop here in my area that shot himself in the leg with his Glock, he was holstering it at the range and the hem of his jacket got in the trigger guard as the gun went in the holster, defeating the trigger safety and depressing the trigger. BANG.

Yes, this is definitely something you have to watch for with a Glock or other similar designs. Really, you should watch for things like this with any sidearm. I do understand your concern and respect your position on your choice of carry guns. My primary carry gun happens to be a gen3 Glock 23 and you can bet I am very cognizant of my clothes and other things when holstering that gun (any gun, actually).

Hokkmike
May 7, 2013, 05:24 PM
When I used a semi (now use a revolver) I always left the chamber empty in my night stand gun It gave me one more layer of safety allowing me to think after just being roused from sleep so that I would be fully awake before considering any action.

Hope I explained this OK.....

rondog
May 7, 2013, 05:40 PM
When I used a semi (now use a revolver) I always left the chamber empty in my night stand gun It gave me one more layer of safety allowing me to think after just being roused from sleep so that I would be fully awake before considering any action.

Hope I explained this OK.....


Perfectly! My bedside 1911 is cocked, locked, and ready to rock, just have to click off the safety. But the M1 Carbine next to it is kept with the chamber empty, I consider that one to be for a little more serious social situations, it's loaded with angry, powerful, aggressive hollowpoints that have bad attitudes. So is the 1911, for that matter.

SouthernBoy
May 7, 2013, 07:28 PM
Posted by: Hokkmike
When I used a semi (now use a revolver) I always left the chamber empty in my night stand gun It gave me one more layer of safety allowing me to think after just being roused from sleep so that I would be fully awake before considering any action.

My nightstand gun resides in a friction retention holster, in full battery. This virtually precludes the off chance of grabbing that gun when awakening from a nightmare and using it by mistake. Our home is a two story so there is the luxury of a little time and distance. In a single story home, my plan would be different.

Extreme moderate
May 7, 2013, 08:10 PM
Such as what gun? If it's striker-fired, has a decocker, but doesn't have a hammer....then how would you re-cock it to make it ready again? I won't carry something like that.

The walther p99 AS is striker fired with a decocker... Just like a traditional DA pistol. It's my favorite in many ways. When you chamber a round, you can hit the decocker, and you're left with a long DA first shot, reset is almost nothing, and light SA follow up shots. If it light strikes, you're back to the DA longer pull, just like true double action. With all of the glocklike striker advantages... I can assure you there's no hammer. You should try one, just make sure it's the AS model of the p99.

Also, with all of the talk about negligent discharges when holstering, there's an easy solution in most everyday cases. Use a good IWB holster, and leave the gun in the holster when you remove/replace it. Very difficult to get your shirttail in the trigger guard if the trigger is behind a layer of leather.

Cee Zee
May 7, 2013, 10:10 PM
Certain pistols were certainly never intended to be carried with a round in the tube. A Tokarev for example. You don't want to carry one of those with a round in the chamber. It would be a time bomb with the hammer and no safety (that works anyway). I actually carried one at time in my life when I had less money because it is a powerful round and inexpensive to operate. It was actually a war sidearm intended for use when you knew the battle was coming your way. You have time to rack the slide in those situations.

Another thing that always makes me wonder when this discussion comes up. We all accept that you don't store a round in a shotgun chamber yet they are considered the cat's meow for home defense. People even think racking the slide is an intimidating act. So why is it ok to have to load a round in a shotgun chamber but not in a handgun chamber? Things can jump off quick in either situation.

BTW I carry a round in the tube every time. I have long since parted ways with my Tokarev and a big part of the reason I did was because I couldn't carry it with a round in the chamber.

jmr40
May 7, 2013, 10:33 PM
I'm in the minority here, but there is a time and place for having a semi with an empty chamber. All of my guns are stored in the safe, with a loaded magazine with an empty chamber. There is a handgun stored and secured in my vehicles at all times in the same condition.

If one of my guns is holstered the chamber is always loaded. Especially if it is on my side. But when unholstered in my vehicles for example, it is faster to retrieve the gun and chamber a round than it is to retrieve a gun with a loaded chamber and get it out of the holster. I wouldn't leave a loaded unholstered gun anywhere, not just Glocks or other striker fired guns. Even a revolver could get cocked unintentionally if left unholstered.

Even if someone chooses to carry unchambered, it is not nearly the disadvantage some believe. With practice it is pretty fast to get into action. The only real disadvantage is doing so when you are unable to use 2 hands.

For someone who owns multiple guns with different operating systems, SA with safety, DA/SA, DAO, etc. it simplifies things and makes all of them operate exactly the same. I could see someone making the decision to go this route rather than worry about whether the safety is on or off. If the 1st trigger pull will be a heavy DA pull or a light SA pull.

Onward Allusion
May 7, 2013, 10:48 PM
The only time I now carry with an empty chamber is pocket carry without any type of holster, and I rarely do that. An empty chamber is almost as useless as an empty gun, but that's just me.

blueridgerunner
May 8, 2013, 04:20 PM
In 20 years in Law Enforcement I have NEVER heard any training officer advocate carrying a weapon with an unloaded chamber. If things go sideways there might not be time to chamber a round. And just an aside, being a law enforcement officer does not automatically confer expert status on anyone. I have known some that were more dangerous to themselves or fellow officers when holding or discharging a weapon.

mdauben
May 8, 2013, 05:45 PM
All of my guns are stored in the safe, with a loaded magazine with an empty chamberIf one of my guns is holstered the chamber is always loaded.
This makes perfect sense to me. I keep one in the pipe on all "ready" guns, but if in storage the chamber is empty. I do keep off-body "ready" guns (night stand, etc.) in an inexpensive nylon holster. It keeps my finger out of the trigger guard if I'm groping for the gun in the dark while still half-asleep, its quicker and (IMO at least) its more intuative to flip off that piece of fabric than to remember to rack the slide in an emergency.

Even if someone chooses to carry unchambered, it is not nearly the disadvantage some believe.
I don't know. I think needing two hands to ready a gun to fire in an emergency situation is a big disadvantage. Admittely there are "tricks" to rack a slide with only one hand, but IMO they require a lot of practice and still insert a degree of unreliability into the situation. Everyone is of course free to carry how they want, but for me its with a loaded chamber no mater what gun I'm using.

For someone who owns multiple guns with different operating systems, SA with safety, DA/SA, DAO, etc. it simplifies things and makes all of them operate exactly the same.
This is why all my SD handguns are Glocks or Glock-like (striker fired, no manual safety). I don't want to worry about different operating systems in an emergency. ;)

JERRY
May 8, 2013, 06:07 PM
OPOTA did not teach this in '96. dont know about now.

rondog
May 8, 2013, 08:10 PM
Another thing that always makes me wonder when this discussion comes up. We all accept that you don't store a round in a shotgun chamber yet they are considered the cat's meow for home defense. People even think racking the slide is an intimidating act. So why is it ok to have to load a round in a shotgun chamber but not in a handgun chamber? Things can jump off quick in either situation.


Home defense is one thing, unchambered guns at home aren't as much of a risk, but I"ll still keep the 1911 ready.

A pistol carried for CCW is an entirely different matter. If you get jumped on the street, in a store or parking lot, or while pumping gas, you're liable to wish your pistol had a round chambered.

JMHO.

Frank Ettin
May 8, 2013, 08:47 PM
Another thing that always makes me wonder when this discussion comes up. We all accept that you don't store a round in a shotgun chamber yet they are considered the cat's meow for home defense. People even think racking the slide is an intimidating act. So why is it ok to have to load a round in a shotgun chamber but not in a handgun chamber? Things can jump off quick in either situation.


Home defense is one thing, unchambered guns at home aren't as much of a risk, but I"ll still keep the 1911 ready.

A pistol carried for CCW is an entirely different matter. If you get jumped on the street, in a store or parking lot, or while pumping gas, you're liable to wish your pistol had a round chambered....In addition, a shotgun is typically a two handed weapon. One expects to be using two hands with one, so chambering a round while deploying it should be readily doable.

A handgun is not a "handsgun." One might very well need to use it with only one hand available, and handguns are indeed frequently used effectively in self defense situations using only one hand.

RX-178
May 8, 2013, 08:50 PM
I will say that I HAVE had people recommend to me that I carry with an empty chamber.

Of course, they were always referring to my Glock 17L with the 3.5lb disconnector.

I don't even CARRY that one.

The Lone Haranguer
May 8, 2013, 09:43 PM
Well I guess the two of them were talking about carrying concealed and his buddy (former sheriff deputy) says that he was taught in police academy to carry on empty chamber and load a round as you draw.

If that is what he actually said, he is full of it. I phrased it that way because there are some older pistols that really aren't safe to carry chamber loaded and cocked and he could have been referring to one of those. Excluding those, if you carry chamber empty, it doesn't make a very good club.

hang fire
May 9, 2013, 01:58 AM
Keep in mind that there are a lot of firearms instructors that don't know what they are talking about. You hear these stories all the time, heard one the other day that the military uses the .223 round because those rounds are configured to hit bones and follow the bone and do maximum tissue damage....


It's entirely possible that some small police academy somewhere teaches this, because their firearms instructor heard this at some point and it made sense to him. So now he just teaches it.
Or the LEO are still carrying their old S&W Model 10 revolvers.

Glock17Gen4
May 9, 2013, 04:09 AM
Such as what gun? If it's striker-fired, has a decocker, but doesn't have a hammer....then how would you re-cock it to make it ready again? I won't carry something like that.

I own CZ-110.
It has no hammer, and after decocking if one is required to fire the first shot more accurately (in single action mode) it is possible to cock the striker by partially retracting the slide by approximately 10 mm (0.4 in).

Mr Woody
May 9, 2013, 09:53 AM
I guess I will come down on both sides of this fence; )

I can see no reason why modern revolvers and semi-autos would not be fine to carry fully loaded. This is a non issue with me.

Now for our favorite 1911 style single action semi autos. I carried one for many years as an officer and have many thousands of rounds through them. I carried mine chambered and locked in a holster with a strap between the hammer and frame. I became paranoid about checking to be sure the lock was still up. Sometimes it was not.

For concealed carry I never recommend the single action auto to new shooters. When they don't listen to me, I suggest the empty chamber carry because they have not developed the skills to handle or carry the 1911 both effectively and safely.

I don't know what kind of gun the new shooter was using that the OP was talking about.

The modern double action pistols are good enough now days there is no need to carry the single action. That does not mean that I don't like the 1911 style pistol, I still own a couple and like to shoot them.

No, you don't have to agree with me but I hope you can understand why I think this way.
W

sota
May 9, 2013, 10:19 AM
When I started on my journey I read alot of articles, threads and commentaries about this exact subject. Here's what I came to as the conclusion as to what I felt comfortable with...

Hammer fired DA/SA pistol, no safety, w/ decocker, chambered round, hammer down. Hence my choice of the HK P30 v3.

My reasoning...
I don't want to worry about a safety switch being manipulated in times of crisis.
I do want the added security of a heavier first pull.
I do want to be able to ride the hammer while holstering.

If I'm drawing there's a 99% chance i'll be making the loud noise. For that 1% when presentation makes someone change their attitude I want the initial DA pull to give me the ability to cease before I have to add squishy holes to someone.

I practice thumbing the decocker before I even start my holster motions, so the firearm is now in DA mode with my thumb on the hammer. It's been proven you'll break various bits inside the gun before the hammer will budge from the trigger being snagged. (please don't think the parts are weak though. it takes ALOT of force to break them... far more than you're likely to encounter while trying to holster, unless you're bearing down on the firearm like a maniac.)

That's why I chose what I chose, and carry the way I carry.

mdauben
May 9, 2013, 11:12 AM
Well I guess the two of them were talking about carrying concealed and his buddy (former sheriff deputy) says that he was taught in police academy to carry on empty chamber and load a round as you draw.

My first impuse is to make a Barney Fife joke, but seriously I've never heard of a police officer in real life who carried an uploaded gun. I know some people are more comfortable with that mode of carry, but I would never do it myself, or recommend it to another.

12many
May 9, 2013, 06:16 PM
I don't know if that is best for police, but for an average citizen, I don't think it is that bad to carry or store like that. That is what I do and my dad always left the hammer on an empty chamber. Just balancing the risk. I would rather have to rack the slide, which does not take long, than have an AD. I never, and I mean never, want an AD.

doc2rn
May 9, 2013, 07:43 PM
Most prisoner transporters are trained this way. It is in case one of the inmates goes for a firearm they get a weapon that has to be brought into service or needs a magazine. In which case they usually get done in by the pocket firearm.

Al Thompson
May 10, 2013, 12:04 PM
I never, and I mean never, want an AD.

I can certainly respect that, but loaded or unloaded isn't really the key. One of the worst Negligent Discharges* I ever witnessed was a result of someone improperly clearing a 1911A1 and pulling the trigger to lower the hammer while allowing the muzzle to cover someone he was not intending to shoot. :scrutiny:

I think that shooter would have been better served if the "4 Rules" were better known at the time. I'm certainly a proponent. ;)



* An Accidental Discharge is generally a mechanical failure, a Negligent Discharge is generally human error, E.G., pulling the trigger on a firearm that was not cleared.

12many
May 10, 2013, 01:52 PM
Good input Al.

I will probably get flamed for this but sometime it seems like people go overboard with the 'cocked and lock' stuff. Yes, you will save a bit of time but for the average guy, (non-police/military) or someone not in very dangerous situation alot, it seems better for me (meaning me, not everyone) to leave the chamber empty.

It seems like I read the news article about ND or AD when the trigger gets caught on clothing, pushed on by another item in a bag (bad storage without holster also) or pulled by accident when the gun is dropped, or recently a kid picked it up and pulled the trigger fast. Those seems much more common than any story about the person who draw to shoot another person but was not fast enough or got shot because they had to rack the slide. In fact, I don't know if I have ever read an article that said someone got shot due to the time it took to rack the slide.

There are instances then I sense trouble or feel uneasy, have to walk the house, and then I will rack the slide, but otherwise I leave the chamber empty. A local gun store owner showed me the time difference between a draw and then a draw while racking the slide and it was less than a second difference in time. It becomes part of the draw. Probably biggest risk is a jam.

For me it is a balancing of the risk and just wanted to chime in that there are people who leave the chamber empty out of an abondance of caution. This may be best for some members of this forum. It is not wrong IMO. This will often prevent AD and ND. Many kids can not even rack the slide which hard for small hands. I was taught growing up in Montana to not put a round in the chamber until you intend to shoot but this was mostly hunting. I know others feel differently and strongly the other way and I am not saying their way is wong.

You are right, that it does not negate or minimize the need to follow the four rules. With so many new gun owners those are always very imporant to remember. There is such a big big responsibility that goes with owning guns.

Orion8472
May 10, 2013, 01:58 PM
That is one of the reasons why I'm waiting out the 9mm XDs. Having that grip safety is just an extra peace of mind thing, . . . when holstering it, keeping my hand off that grip safety makes it less likely for an AD.

GEM
May 10, 2013, 02:14 PM
1911s have grip safeties. I had a guy put a round a few inches from my foot when he was holstering his gun after a load and make ready at an IDPA match.

Also with grip safeties, while rare, there are some reports of an injured shooter (hand shot) having trouble with the grip safety.

It's trigger on the finger for the vast majority of cases. Even with heavier DA pulls we've had NDs.

Orion8472
May 11, 2013, 10:43 AM
Perhaps, GEM. However, I am willing to take the extra added safety over a rare hand injury episode. . . . considering the likelihood that I'll probably never take it out of my holster [meaning, far less likely that I will need to defend my life than even an AD]. So, with the XDs, when holstering it, I won't even be touching the grip safety. No "snagged clothes AD" potential.

Deltaboy
May 11, 2013, 03:03 PM
Hey everyone,

I was talking with a coworker this morning who is fairly new to owning guns. He visited fam and friends last weekend back in Ohio.

One of his friends is a former sheriff deputy. Of course they spent some time talking about guns and such. My coworker got his conceal permit and is planning on a .380 I think. Well I guess the two of them were talking about carrying concealed and his buddy (former sheriff deputy) says that he was taught in police academy to carry on empty chamber and load a round as you draw.

I feel like his is joking with my friend because that sounds so ridiculous. Is that taught in any police academies?

Personally I carried with empty chamber for a little while on my M&P9 but have changed that practice. I can't imagine law enforcement doing it.

I guess it is personal choice and some law enforcement do it? Apparently the former sheriff deputy mentioned the benefit that if someone grabs his gun it won't fire because it the chamber is empty. That could definitely save your life in a situation where your gun is taken from you but I never thought for a second LEO would carry empty.
Either it was a bad joke or the guy is a MOTHO.

smithwr3
May 11, 2013, 06:14 PM
I agree that carrying with an empty chamber defies logic. Every time I've requalified with the Beretta M9 over the last 17 years, my Air Force instructors tell us to carry a round in the chamber with the safety off. That way, as soon as you pull your weapon and immediately you point the weapon forward, you can engage and stop your enemy that is running towards you.

U.S.SFC_RET
May 12, 2013, 09:36 AM
I carry a semi-automatic with an empty chamber. Its my preference and I am comfortable with it. If i carry a revolver it is with all cylinders loaded and hammer forward. No firearm in my house has a round in the chamber and all actions are open on rifles and shotguns. The exception is a home defence shotgun. There is round in the chamber but not in battery. That means I can see the action out of battery. These are rules that I set into place years ago.
I am fifty years young and have witnessed more than enough tragedy around me due to carelessness.

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