Dumping empties more efficiently


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gamestalker
May 7, 2013, 03:40 AM
I was doing some thinking the other day, not always a good thing, but anyway, about a quicker way to dump empties. Normally I have to pull each one, one at a time, with exception for those few that drop out by gravity alone. So as I said I was thinking about a better method, and I came up with an idea I tested a couple days ago at the range. I chamfered the inside of the mouths on my speed loaders, so they will easily align with the cartridges, so when I push the extractor rod up, the empties will stick out of the cylinder. It requires supporting the cases with the extractor rod so they don't get pushed back in to the cylinders, but after 3 or 4 practice runs, I was doing it with little to no fumbling.

Is this something new, or have I just reinvented the wheel? And what methods do some of ya all use that speeds the process up, or just maybe a bit more efficient?

GS

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F-111 John
May 7, 2013, 06:44 AM
Are you trying to reload your speed loader with the spent casings? If so, why?

I've done what you've described when unloading my revolver, but the rounds were unfired and fall easily out of the cylinder chambers. For regular unloading, however, swing out the cylinder, point the muzzle in the air, and give the ejector a hard whack with the palm of your hand two times.

At the range, hold the cylinder through the frame, press the ejector with your thumb, and catch the rounds in your hand(if you wish to keep the brass for reloading.)

Here is Mas Ayoob demonstrating a high stress reload: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXUwI_d8JlA

MrBorland
May 7, 2013, 06:50 AM
Normally I have to pull each one, one at a time, with exception for those few that drop out by gravity alone.

ok, the coffee's brewing, so maybe it's a pre-caffeine fog, but I'm not getting it. :confused: You get the gun muzzle up and let those that'll fall out on their own fall out, but hand pick the rest? And now you use the ejector rod with the muzzle down? :confused:

what methods do some of ya all use that speeds the process up, or just maybe a bit more efficient?

How 'bout just using the ejector rod with muzzle up? That's the standard. Check the pic.

http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp239/becke016/GunsTargets/686reload2012Nats.jpg

MedWheeler
May 7, 2013, 07:50 AM
I don't get the question, either. Are you trying to "re-capture" your brass straight from cylinder to speedloader? If so, why?

You should not be pushing your ejector rod upward; you should be smacking it downward.


And what methods do some of ya all use that speeds the process up?

Exactly what process are you trying to speed up? Just unloading? Re-capturing brass?

I worked several years a a revolver-carrying LEO. I never had an issue with spent cases failing to fall free from the cylinder when I wanted them to. I did more than my fair share of "own-time" training and practice, too, not just what I got on the job.

MrBorland, is the shooter in your pic left-handed? I am, and never found (back then!) a good rapid-reload technique for the revolver that did not involve a brief switch to the right hand.

Certaindeaf
May 7, 2013, 08:28 AM
If you want to speedload speedloaders they sell caddies for that. Also, make sure to grab at least six rounds in one hand to load your speedloader, gun or caddy.
Also, do what MrBorland said.

grimjaw
May 7, 2013, 09:05 AM
MrBorland, RE: the picture you referenced in post #3, like Ayoob mentioned that forcing cone he has his fingers against could get mighty hot. Maybe not after one five-shot cylinder of .38s, but in competition and shooting magnums I think I'd learn a different grip. I have no practical experience with this, but it seems like common sense.

Certaindeaf
May 7, 2013, 09:16 AM
MrBorland, RE: the picture you referenced in post #3, like Ayoob mentioned that forcing cone he has his fingers against could get mighty hot. Maybe not after one five-shot cylinder of .38s, but in competition and shooting magnums I think I'd learn a different grip. I have no practical experience with this, but it seems like common sense.
That's the only way to do that. They don't really get that hot. You are only in that position for maybe 1/4 second, max.

MrBorland
May 7, 2013, 09:28 AM
MrBorland, is the shooter in your pic left-handed? I am, and never found (back then!) a good rapid-reload technique for the revolver that did not involve a brief switch to the right hand.

Lefty revolver shooters are presented with some unique reload challenges, to be sure.
The shooter (yours truly) is right handed, though*. What's shown is a "strong hand reload", though I'll do a "weak hand reload" when needed. Regardless of the method, authoritatively using the ejector while the muzzle's up is the way to get the empties out.

Ayoob mentioned that forcing cone he has his fingers against could get mighty hot...in competition and shooting magnums I think I'd learn a different grip. I have no practical experience with this, but it seems like common sense.

Practical experience trumps common sense here. ;) The pic was taken in competition (last year's Nationals). And the forcing cone doesn't get that hot. A lot depends on the load; some powders burn a lot hotter than others. I use Clays partly for this reason. Titegroup would likely get my attention.



* sorta right-handed. I'm actually a lefty, but shoot righty. My left handedness comes in handy when "weak hand only" is required. ;)

Thaddeus Jones
May 7, 2013, 11:13 AM
I'm a lefty. I shift the revolver to my right hand and push the thumb latch with my trigger finger. Open the cylinder with my right thumb and forefinger.

Right hand thumb through the cylinder window (careful not to touch the hot forcing cone! ) Start tilting the revolver muzzle vertical.

With muzzle vertical, using ball of left hand, slap the ejector rod.

Muzzle down and reload. :) Simple. Just not easy. ;)

Certaindeaf
May 7, 2013, 11:25 AM
I've always used my non-dominant thumb to dump empties while my right hand is going for the speedloader, just like MrBorland shows so well.

Sam1911
May 7, 2013, 11:41 AM
I use the "switchover" method and actually smack the ejector hard with my strong hand before grabbing the speedloader, but otherwise do just what Mr. Borland shows.

My empties tend to eject just as far as those of the auto guys! :)

Certaindeaf
May 7, 2013, 11:48 AM
I hear you smackers.. lolz. I've never had brass hang up or fail to eject even with short ejector rod snub guns.
Anyway, now if we can only get the OP to elaborate..

ApacheCoTodd
May 7, 2013, 12:25 PM
I thought within the first few words we were being asked to consider a single action then "speed loader" gets thrown in so I figure no SA.
Then - it seems the speed loader is being used to empty a revolver.

Sounds to me like there's a cylinder cleanliness or case condition issue here to be addressed rather than a technique being needed to assist gravity.

Maybe the time of the posting gives us some insight into the perspective of the OP?:evil:

Certaindeaf
May 7, 2013, 12:36 PM
.so when I push the extractor rod up,..
I think this is the main deal and problem/issue. As I think has been said a few times now, don't do that.. turn the revolver muzzle up and deploy the ejector rod, pushing it down.. the cases will fall out on the ground where they belong.
but it's been a wild ride

788Ham
May 7, 2013, 01:32 PM
...... and you don't get the burned powder into the action either, nor under the ejection rod star.

Walkalong
May 7, 2013, 02:26 PM
I do like Mr Borland. If I am only shooting at targets, I cup my right hand to catch the empties.

In a defensive situation, I hope I never get the gun too hot to handle that way. Heck, I wouldn't have enough ammo with me to do so anyway. Besides, what's a little singed meat in a life and death shootout.

shafter
May 7, 2013, 03:47 PM
I'm right handed so I usually engage the cylinder latch with my right thumb while transfering the pistol to my left hand. My left hand holds the cylinder (muzzle up) and the thumb punches down the ejector rod. The right hand is grabbing a reload. Empties fall to the ground.

StrawHat
May 7, 2013, 04:29 PM
When I shot a double action revolver in competition, I learned to turn the muzzle to the sky and stroke the ejector rod with my left hand. Most of the empties were falling out of the cylinder prior to the rod stroke but I hit it to make sure. Then my left hand grabbed a speed loader and recharged the cylinder. Close the cylinder and back to shooting. The revolver never left my shooting hand and reaquiring a shooting grip was not a problem. For me it was an easier reload than switching hands. Just something I got used to.

AFDavis11
May 7, 2013, 06:27 PM
I'm guessing the OP is a reloader?

rcmodel
May 7, 2013, 08:12 PM
So am I, but I don't try to put empty's back in my speed loaders while still in the cylinder to save them.

I generally set a 1 gal Folgers coffee can on the bench and eject them into it.
Then snap the lid on the can and go home with it when I get done.

rc

Certaindeaf
May 7, 2013, 08:25 PM
I reload and dump them on my foot. When I'm done I pick them up.

gamestalker
May 7, 2013, 09:15 PM
I'm not referring to a defensive situation, range shooting. What I'm trying to prevent is dumping my rounds on the ground, I reload. And since I'm not standing where my recovery bag or can is, I am using the now empty speed loader to grab all 6 at one time, and then drop it into my pocket. Previous to trying this, I was doing as everyone else does, point the muzzle up, and then use the extractor rod to push them out.

GS

Certaindeaf
May 7, 2013, 09:30 PM
Well, you'll do as you train so maybe just dump them into a coffee can.

WC145
May 7, 2013, 09:30 PM
Get it cut for moonclips, they all pop out together, no chasing loose brass.

barnbwt
May 7, 2013, 10:06 PM
One word, just one word; Moonclips.

TCB

9mmepiphany
May 7, 2013, 10:14 PM
What I'm trying to prevent is dumping my rounds on the ground, I reload...

... I am using the now empty speed loader to grab all 6 at one time, and then drop it into my pocket.
This explains a lot and this information would have really helped if included in the OP as what you are trying to do is highly unusual...to say nothing of unduly over complicated.

People have been doing this for years without going through the gyrations that you are attempting. The more common way is to allow gravity to work for you. Aligning the speedloader with the rims, inverting the gun and ejecting the cases into the speedloader would be the easiest way to accomplish what you intend.

Please don't read this post as recommending, advocating or approving of this technique...it will build horrible habits

Certaindeaf
May 7, 2013, 10:39 PM
Oh, and drop that speedloader after its done its job. Don't even think about it.. have your hands do what they have to do and gravity will deal with that particular item also.

murf
May 7, 2013, 10:42 PM
hey gamestalker, get one of them shotgun shell pouches you hang on your hip. just dump the empties in there.

murf

BCRider
May 8, 2013, 12:59 AM
I have to agree with the others. If all you use your revolvers for is slow and deliberate bullseye shooting then great, pop them back into the speed loaders like you're doing. But if you will be competing in speed related matches such as IPSC, IDPA or Steel Challenge with your revolver then it's time to start practicing like you run your matches. And if you carry your revolver for possible defensive use then again it's time to dump and go instead of this fiddling around reloading your speed loaders. Yes you may be reloading but it's just a bad way to practice for any sort of rapid and instinctive reload if needed in the pressure of competition or, even worse, the stress of a defensive situation.

Get an old large size bath or beach towel and put that on the ground where you shoot to catch the brass. When done there may be a few off in the dirt to pick up but the big majority of them will be there on the towel ready to fold up and take home.

MrBorland
May 8, 2013, 09:37 AM
What I'm trying to prevent is dumping my rounds on the ground, I reload...

... I am using the now empty speed loader to grab all 6 at one time, and then drop it into my pocket

This explains a lot and this information would have really helped if included in the OP as what you are trying to do is highly unusual...to say nothing of unduly over complicated.

I agree we understand better now, but also agree the OP's method seems overly complicated. Besides, most will end up shooting far more rounds than they have speedloaders for.

As others have noted, if you don't want your brass hitting the ground, just eject as in the pic, but eject them into your hand (check out the end of my run @ 0:12 in the vid below), then drop them in a box or zip-lock bag. They won't be hot enough to burn you, and transporting them home in a box or bag won't damage them, so you needn't worry about that.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNFerCV3W4Y

.

Certaindeaf
May 8, 2013, 10:42 AM
Notice that MrBorland only dumps his dummies into his speedloader so they don't get destroyed/dinged and to expedite his drill.. he's practicing drawing, firing, reloading and firing again.

MrBorland
May 8, 2013, 10:53 AM
Just to clarify, I think Certaindeaf is referring to this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boGaIPyBNR0

Yes, I do dump the dummy rounds directly into the speedloader, but as noted, it's just to make the drill easier to repeat. It's also why I developed the lazy and bad habit of not starting off with empty cases to eject. I can't recommend you follow my bad example here. :o

Certaindeaf
May 8, 2013, 10:59 AM
Ah, I hear you.. my bad. I checked out another video of yours and probably shortstroked it or something.. lolz

BCRider
May 8, 2013, 01:48 PM
By the way gamestalker, I think you might be overly worried about the strength and durabilty of the brass.

I pick up lots of left over brass at the end of the days of match shooting so I can reload it. From shooting to picking it up the brass is walked on and kicked around and otherwise similarly abused. Yet it's a rare thing to find a casing which was gouged or bent so badly that it's not useable. So you may be worrying about this aspect needlessly to some extent.

Oh sure, I'm certainly not above making things easier for myself. Hence my suggestion for the beach towel on the ground to collect the lion's share of the dumped brass without the need to grub around in the dirt.

Probably the easiest and slickest solution though is to just get some form of belt pouch and dump the empties into your hand like in MrBorland's video and then into the pouch.

Walkalong
May 8, 2013, 05:42 PM
Yea, it's brass, not spun glass. :)

Dave T
May 9, 2013, 03:55 PM
What I'm trying to prevent is dumping my rounds on the ground, I reload...

As others have said, the brass isn't going to be damaged by dropping on the ground. And, if you aren't tumbling your brass (cleaning it) before reloading you need to add that as a step in your reloading cycle.

Dave

BlindJustice
May 9, 2013, 04:17 PM
Did the O.P. ever say what kinda revolver he is using?


Muzzle up and stroke the extractor, shrug

My Revolvers,

S&w 617 10 shot cylinder - no problem

S&W Model 60 w/3" bbl. - unlike the snubbie J-frames the
Chiefs Special with 3" Bbl. has a full length extractor rod
and gets the .38 Special or .357 cases clear of the chamber

S&W 625 .45 ACP with Full Moon clips, - the extractor rod
is as long as its N-frame Magnum brothers as well as the
cases bing contained by the full moon clips is reliable in ejection
I also have the HKS speedloaders for .45 Auto Rim every once
in a while, it'll leave one empty partiallly extracted

R-

Jim Watson
May 9, 2013, 04:34 PM
When I shot PPC, the standard was a bucket on the ground between our toes to eject into.

I just can't see the business of unloading back into a speedloader. That is a skill and habit I don't need.

gamestalker
May 9, 2013, 05:22 PM
OK, ya all made your respective comments. It was just a thought I put into action, and clearly I have over thought the process. I've got too much time on my hands I guess. OCD best explains some of my quirks.

But seriously, I just don't like dumping my brass on the ground, and not just because I don't like grit to get all over it. I have a friend who was reaching down to pick up his brass, and he got tagged on the hand by a rattle snake. That incident cost him his index finger, and half of the middle finger, on his right hand, he is right handed. This has had a profound effect on his shooting abilities as a result. Seriously, I have nearly been nailed by them suckers numerous times while shooting in the large public lands of Arizona. It's the tiny little 10" one's that you don't notice that present this threat.

But I'm not arguing that there is a better way to get around this issue. I use brass catchers for the AL guns, and because I don't like grit. in my defense, let me elaborate a bit more about the grit issue. When I reach down and pick up grit laden brass, it gets on my hands, between my fingers, and then on the firearm, and then the loaded rounds going into the firearm. This becomes a pretty big problem when your hands are wet with sweat too.

GS

9mmepiphany
May 9, 2013, 07:41 PM
Sounds like you should shoot indoors

Jim K
May 9, 2013, 07:53 PM
A lot of methods have been used to save the brass and also to keep it off the ground. All very well for the range. But if you carry a revolver for serious purposes, please do NOT get in the habit of using some brass-saving trick. Get in the habit of dumping that brass and reloading as fast as possible, not standing around worrying about the brass getting dirty or lost. If you do, you might get dirty - under six feet of dirt.

Jim

rcmodel
May 9, 2013, 08:37 PM
+1

There is an old story about a cop who was in the habit of saving all his empty's on the range and putting them in his pocket so he didn't have to pick them up.

Then one day, he got in a real gun fight.
And died with an empty gun and a pocket full of empty cases.

It seems doing what you practice got him killed.

He was pocketing brass while the BG was reloading faster and killing him.

rc

Jim Watson
May 9, 2013, 08:50 PM
There is also the (Bill Jordan) story of the competitive shooter who held off a rifle armed rumrunner with his .38. Successfully, even though he ended up with his pocket full of brass.

rcmodel
May 9, 2013, 09:26 PM
The moral of that story is:
You don't want to mess with a competitive shooter!

Even if he is pocketing his brass! :D

rc

Certaindeaf
May 9, 2013, 09:32 PM
Well, you just need to pack a couple a mongoose in your range bag.

rcmodel
May 9, 2013, 09:34 PM
I use a Trunk Monkey to pick up my brass.

Yes, they leave a mess in the trunk.

But it sure beats trying to eject the brass back into speed loaders!!

rc

Certaindeaf
May 9, 2013, 09:39 PM
True grit, baby!

Dave T
May 10, 2013, 03:36 PM
I have lived and been shooting in the same AZ desert since I came back from Nam in '71. Haven't yet been bit by a rattle snake and for most of that time I was a 1911 shooter. And a rag in your back pocket, to wipe off those sweaty & dirty hands, would seem to be an easier solution.

Just sayin',
Dave

WC145
May 10, 2013, 08:32 PM
Get yourself a Brass Wizard, a guy had one at last weekends IDPA match and it is some kind of slick. Just roll it over the brass and it picks it up, no more fretting about little snakes.

http://www.uniquetek.com/site/696296/product/T1310

F-111 John
May 11, 2013, 06:21 AM
Or, go to your local ACE Hardware and get a Garden Weasel Nut Harvester, which is the same item at about half the price.

http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=11085689&cagpspn=pla&CAWELAID=742952551

Elkins45
May 11, 2013, 08:18 AM
hey gamestalker, get one of them shotgun shell pouches you hang on your hip. just dump the empties in there.


I was going to suggest going to the local hardware store and picking up a nail apron. The canvas ones with the store name printed on them probably only cost a couple of dollars. This one is <$4.00

http://cdn.fullsource.com/images/items/a/raw/ERB-18065.jpg

buck460XVR
May 11, 2013, 10:06 AM
When I shoot my revolvers, I also shoot 1911s and lever action carbines. I put a large painters cloth on the ground so ejected brass is easily found and not lost in the grass. For the revolvers, I just pick them out and stick the empties back in the plastic case they came outta of, or dump them into a coffee can as others. Seems no more work than going thru the speedloader thingy. But we all have a range routine and are compulsive about something. Whatever works.

BCRider
May 12, 2013, 12:46 AM
Given that it sounds like you're in an area that has snakes I guess not bending over to get your brass might not be a bad thing after all.

But of all the non bending over solutions I'd say that a wide mouth hold open dump bag would be the best for the reasons mentioned by rcmodel and others above related to "you do what you practice".

For slow and deliberate target shooting putting your brass back into the speed loaders is fine. But if you carry or shoot in any of the various speed focused competitions then you want to practice rapid reloads. And with a dump pouch at least you're working with a technique that won't set you up for bad failure in a speed related scenario.

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