A home defense .223 rifle?


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PaisteMage
May 7, 2013, 11:00 PM
So I am considering int he next year or so getting a compact rifle that shoots .223 for something to maneuver around the house with, in a home defense scenario.

Thinking something compact, similar in size maybe to the shorter shotguns that have an 18 inch barrel.

It would be nice to have a rifle that is small, has 30 rounds in the magazine, and isn't as awkward as a long shotgun.

I also want to get into the AR type platform.

I have never shot a .223 rifle, but that will be changing soon. I haven't shot the 5.56 or whatever the other common variant is.

I have shot Mosin, 30 ought 6, 30/30 so I know what high powered rifles are like.

I would like suggestions and want to be under 2,000. Please give me your opinions about the topic and PICTURES really help to determine size, and also inform of the options you have added tot he rifle so I know what is out there.

This could be an amazingly long thread, since I have been told that these rifles are very modular and options are kind of endless.

THank you for your time and patience with all my questions. The "G36" looks like a good size from what I have seen in my minimal research.

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TrickyDick
May 7, 2013, 11:08 PM
for cost efficiency, i would look at Mini-14's, possibly some AR's (prices are starting to come down). but there are a few that are a bit pricey; SCAR, ACR and the SIG556 for just a few, the G36 is nice, but pricey as well, and i'm sure some will mention other rifles as well

allaroundhunter
May 7, 2013, 11:12 PM
You won't get a G36 here in the US.

If I were in your boat I would take an AR any day. The Mini 14s are overpriced right now, and ARs are rapidly decreasing in price. Find yourself a Colt 6920 and be happy.

PaisteMage
May 7, 2013, 11:16 PM
Thanks for your replies thus far.

Do people reload .223?

I will look into those...I assumed that the G36 wouldn't be available , since it might be German only, no exportation.

I googled "popular .223 rifle," and it was one of the first that came up!

justice06rr
May 7, 2013, 11:25 PM
Yes people reload 223.

You can easily get a quality AR15 Carbine for around $1k. shop around and do your research. Smith and Wesson sells their M&P15 Sport for around $800. That is the best AR to start with IMO. Lightweight and reliable, shoots both 5.56/223.

If you really had $2k to spend, then get a Colt 6920 or Sig556.

C-grunt
May 7, 2013, 11:27 PM
Colt 6920 is the Gold Standard. They run about 1100 bucks. Then invest in a good red dot like an Aimpoint or EOTech, a sling and a flashlight. Then buy some ammo and get some professional training.

Warp
May 7, 2013, 11:32 PM
So I am considering int he next year or so getting a compact rifle that shoots .223 for something to maneuver around the house with, in a home defense scenario.

Thinking something compact, similar in size maybe to the shorter shotguns that have an 18 inch barrel.

It would be nice to have a rifle that is small, has 30 rounds in the magazine, and isn't as awkward as a long shotgun.

I also want to get into the AR type platform.

I have never shot a .223 rifle, but that will be changing soon. I haven't shot the 5.56 or whatever the other common variant is.

I have shot Mosin, 30 ought 6, 30/30 so I know what high powered rifles are like.

I would like suggestions and want to be under 2,000. Please give me your opinions about the topic and PICTURES really help to determine size, and also inform of the options you have added tot he rifle so I know what is out there.

This could be an amazingly long thread, since I have been told that these rifles are very modular and options are kind of endless.

THank you for your time and patience with all my questions. The "G36" looks like a good size from what I have seen in my minimal research.

Search this forum. Search www.m4carbine.net .

A AR/M4 type rifle chambered in 5.56 can be a great defensive rifle.

Start with a quality rifle. Personally I would start with a:

KAC
LMT
Noveske
LaRue
BCM
Colt
Spikes
S&W

Or something like that.

Use GOOD magazines. Personally I'd go with:

Magpul PMAG
Good/legit USGI (NHMTG, OKay, Colt, maybe D&H)
Lancer L5 AWM
Troy Battlemag
HK


Use good ammo. Brass case factory 5.56x45, or a good brass case .223 Remington for plinking/general training. Federal, PMC, Prvi Partizan (PPU), IMI, etc are the most common here.

And lube it properly/enough. When in doubt, use more lube on the BCG (bolt carrier group)
http://www.ar15.com/content/swat/keepitrunning.pdf

The generally accepted "basic" add-ons or accessories for a defensive rifle are:

1. Sling
2. Light
3. (optional) Optic

And doing anything else is best put off until you have some trigger and and, preferably, some training.


Do you research before buying a rifle so that you know what's what. If somebody says a part meets "mil spec", you should be able to look at the specifications and tell whether or not it actually does meet mil spec.

Know what barrel twist rate you want. You probably want a 1:7, but you should make your own decision based on the facts, after you do your research.





-----------
Your budget of $2,000 can buy...oh let's say...

1 quality rifle for ~$1,000-$1,300
6 good magazines for ~$90
1,000 round case of 5.56 for, oh well here is where it gets messy in this market...say $650 :(
And then grab a sling which will put you a little over budget.


Ammo is the bottleneck right now

Edarnold
May 8, 2013, 12:45 AM
If you are planning on using this gun indoors, and you want to use the .223 round AND keep your hearing, part of your investment will have to be in a suppressor. In a home defense situation you can't count on wearing hearing protection, and from a short handy 16" barrel the muzzle blast indoors will cause immediate hearing loss.

Given your intended purpose, an AR-type rifle in .300 Blackout using sub-sonic loads will give you all the power you need and work very well with a suppressor, or be less ear-damaging if used without.

IMHO

allaroundhunter
May 8, 2013, 12:49 AM
If you are planning on using this gun indoors, and you want to use the .223 round AND keep your hearing, part of your investment will have to be in a suppressor. In a home defense situation you can't count on wearing hearing protection, and from a short handy 16" barrel the muzzle blast indoors will cause immediate hearing loss.

Given your intended purpose, an AR-type rifle in .300 Blackout using sub-sonic loads will give you all the power you need and work very well with a suppressor, or be less ear-damaging if used without.

IMHO

.223, 9mm, 12 gauge, all are about 150 dB. You won't notice the difference if you have to fire in the confines of your home. While I live my hearing, I will put it second on the priority list. Adding a 5" long suppressor will defeat the purpose of having a carbine with a shorter barrel. I keep a set of electronic muffs next to my AR in my gun safe for if u have time to grab them. If I don't, it's really not a huge deal to me. Live to breathe another day, and then worry about my hearing.

X-Rap
May 8, 2013, 01:16 AM
And don't forget it will peel all the paint off your walls and shoot into the next county.:rolleyes:
And with that short barrel I hope you don't have any chrome bumpers laying around the hallway cause it will peel that off too.:rolleyes:

X-Rap
May 8, 2013, 01:21 AM
You'll do well with an AR, if you let a round or two off in tight quarters you will do some damage but you likely won't cause immediate hearing loss, nor will you be blinded by the flash.:rolleyes:
We hope that discharging a gun under these circumstances doesn't happen frequently.:rolleyes:
Sorry none of the sarcasm smileys showed up before.

Hummer70
May 8, 2013, 01:34 AM
I was just going to add a short barrel will really ring your gord.

henschman
May 8, 2013, 01:46 AM
I would go with a 16" pencil profile barreled AR-15 carbine with a mid-length gas system that has all the mil spec features like chrome lined barrel, high pressure tested and magnetic particle inspected barrel and bolt, staked gas key and castle nut, carpenter 158 shot peened bolt, and M4 feed ramps.

Palmetto State Armory sells an upper in this configuration, and currently has it in stock. You would need to find a lower receiver to go with it. If you went with that, you could have a very solid rifle for less than $1000, leaving plenty of money in your budget for an Aimpoint red dot, a good light+mount, and a 2 point quick adjust sling.

C-grunt
May 8, 2013, 02:57 AM
While shooting a rifle off indoors is bad for your hearing it wont make you deaf. I have been around a good bit of rifle and cannon fire without hearing protection and I can still hear okay. I have definite hearing loss but that is more due to the fact I had to have my right eardrum replaced after I lost 95 percent of it doing breaching training with the 75th Ranger Batt.

jmr40
May 8, 2013, 06:53 AM
You won't have any more problems shooting an AR indoors than any other gun. Handguns are commonly used indoors and they are as loud or louder than a rifle. The short barrel AR's are made for just such use and the mlitary has been extremely pleased with their performance in house to house fighing in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Here is an informative article.

http://www.gunsandammo.com/2012/02/10/long-guns-short-yardage-is-223-the-best-home-defense-caliber/

Warp
May 8, 2013, 10:14 AM
If you are planning on using this gun indoors, and you want to use the .223 round AND keep your hearing, part of your investment will have to be in a suppressor. In a home defense situation you can't count on wearing hearing protection, and from a short handy 16" barrel the muzzle blast indoors will cause immediate hearing loss.

Given your intended purpose, an AR-type rifle in .300 Blackout using sub-sonic loads will give you all the power you need and work very well with a suppressor, or be less ear-damaging if used without.

IMHO

Just about any legitimate home defense firearm will be LOUD.

But if you have to fire in self defense/home defense, hearing loss is an acceptable side effect.

A niche cartridge and a suppressor would be fine, but are far from required, and not what I would recommend somebody start out with, especially when they have a budget. 5.56/.223 availability and pricing is too good...and like it or not NFA items like suppressors and short barrels change things, from a legal standpoint.

bigdaa
May 8, 2013, 10:15 AM
AR with collapsible stock and 16 inch barrel.
Short, maneuverable and too much firepower.

Warp
May 8, 2013, 10:17 AM
AR with collapsible stock and 16 inch barrel.
Short, maneuverable and too much firepower.

What?

bigdaa
May 8, 2013, 10:21 AM
What?
I'm just making the tongue in cheek point that he will be punching through all kinds of barriers.

Warp
May 8, 2013, 10:30 AM
I'm just making the tongue in cheek point that he will be punching through all kinds of barriers.

You are ill informed on this topic.

A 5.56/.223 round will not "punch through all kinds of barriers". In fact, it will penetrate as much, if not less than, a typical handgun round, when talking about interior walls and such. It is a lightweight, fast bullet, that tends to destabilize/tumble/fragment and lose momentum quickly once it strikes something.

There is no more of a barrier penetration concern with 5.56/.223 than there would be with a 9mm pistol.

You may want to educate yourself a little bit on this topic before making more comments like that.

Here is a great place to start.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/

stumpers
May 8, 2013, 10:51 AM
Here's my main carbine. BCM, 14.5 lightweight barrel, Aimpoint M3, and light. I typically use 20 round mags. Without the M3 it's very light. If my only use was indoors or less than 30 feet or so, I'd remove the red dot and use the iron sights only.

I don't have the exact measurements, but with the flashhider the barrel is 16.1 inches. For whatever it is worth, I am glad I didn't get a 16 inch barrel plus a flashhider...

BCM is a Wisconsin company out of Hartland. I've heard nothing but good things about them and have no complaints about either of mine. They are very easy to order from - I bought my BCM lowers locally and then ordered the uppers/BCGs directly from BCM.


http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=183709&stc=1&d=1368020773
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=183710&stc=1&d=1368020773

MtnCreek
May 8, 2013, 10:53 AM
.223, 9mm, 12 gauge, all are about 150 dB. You won't notice the difference if you have to fire in the confines of your home. ...

The db rates being the same may be true; I don't know one way or the other, but they sure don't sound the same. 18.5" 12ga vs 18" .223 (bare muzzle or flash hider), the .223 seems like a much sharper sound than the 12ga and rings my ears much worse. YMMV.

I'm with you on your comment about hearing loss in the event that I need to use a weapon defensively. While I don't want (more) hearing loss, I'll worry about that later, assuming I'm successful in my defense.

PaisteMage
May 8, 2013, 11:02 AM
No one can ever say the gun community isn't helpful and responsive in a timely manner!

The Colt several spoke of is great for the price range.

You guys have given me lots of starting points and aspects for research. Now I know the questions I want answered and have some good pictures to boot.

MY Army reserve friend has one he is going to let me shoot that is basically a lot like some you all have described. This should be happening a few weeks.

Gratzi!

JShirley
May 8, 2013, 11:04 AM
In a home defense situation you can't count on wearing hearing protection, and from a short handy 16" barrel the muzzle blast indoors will cause immediate hearing loss.


Electronic muffs take 2 seconds to apply and turn on. Also, repeated studies have shown 5.56 with most rounds penetrate less than almost all handgun rounds in both tissue and structural materials.

John

PaisteMage
May 8, 2013, 11:06 AM
Thanks for the informative article "jmr40"

bigdaa
May 8, 2013, 11:17 AM
You are ill informed on this topic.

A 5.56/.223 round will not "punch through all kinds of barriers". In fact, it will penetrate as much, if not less than, a typical handgun round, when talking about interior walls and such. It is a lightweight, fast bullet, that tends to destabilize/tumble/fragment and lose momentum quickly once it strikes something.

There is no more of a barrier penetration concern with 5.56/.223 than there would be with a 9mm pistol.

You may want to educate yourself a little bit on this topic before making more comments like that.

Here is a great place to start.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/


While I understand that there is more information than I will ever absorb out there concerning 62 gr penetrating projectiles from the 5.56 platform, this is what I see:


I can say with certainty that you will not want to be next door to my home if I were to touch off a few rounds of 855 and miss my intended target.

Here are the barriers: Drywall (.5"), stucco(1"), 15 feet of air, stucco(1"), drywall(.5), flesh.

I don't see how much more informed I need to be. Do You?

PaisteMage
May 8, 2013, 11:21 AM
I do not have substantial evidence to go either way on the over penetration issue but I do know several sites that delve into this in a very minute manner.

From my conversations with ex and current military members and current police officers, the .223 is chosen due to the high fragmentation rate and loss of velocity: less chance of hitting person next door.

Disclaimer: I am in no way an expert and this is my and their opinion.

bigdaa
May 8, 2013, 11:31 AM
I do not have substantial evidence to go either way on the over penetration issue but I do know several sites that delve into this in a very minute manner.

From my conversations with ex and current military members and current police officers, the .223 is chosen due to the high fragmentation rate and loss of velocity: less chance of hitting person next door.

Disclaimer: I am in no way an expert and this is my and their opinion.
I believe that the ammo chosen has plenty to do with this.

Listen, I do agree with the anyone concerning the argument that the NATO round is a very light and easily influenced projectile, however there items you cannot ignore. The slowing of the projectile in fleshy media due to tumbling and fragmentation at the canelure are big contributors to a limited depth of penetration. No argument from me.

I don't want to start a brawl fest and I do defer to those with a wealth of knowledge here. In terms of common ammo we all have, M855 is going to kill somebody next door if not attenuated by interim objects.

Would I use my Carbine for home defense? Of course. Loaded with whatever I had but preferably the hollow point projectiles, lead core.

Anyway, put your rumble sticks away. Remember that a 5.56 will punch through an 1/8 inch piece of steel at 600 yards.

Warp
May 8, 2013, 11:40 AM
While I understand that there is more information than I will ever absorb out there concerning 62 gr penetrating projectiles from the 5.56 platform, this is what I see:


I can say with certainty that you will not want to be next door to my home if I were to touch off a few rounds of 855 and miss my intended target.

Here are the barriers: Drywall (.5"), stucco(1"), 15 feet of air, stucco(1"), drywall(.5), flesh.

I don't see how much more informed I need to be. Do You?

I sure do.

You apparently think that the entire realm of 5.56/.223 consists of ONE round/cartridge/option. How much less informed could a person possibly be?

Did you check out this link yet?

http://www.theboxotruth.com/

How about this one?

http://www.gunsandammo.com/2012/02/10/long-guns-short-yardage-is-223-the-best-home-defense-caliber/

Or, here's a new one for you:

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=44869

PS: I guarantee I don't want to be next door to your home when you \touch off, and miss with, several rounds of ANYTHING that you are using with the intention of reliably stopping an attacker.

Warp
May 8, 2013, 11:42 AM
I do not have substantial evidence to go either way on the over penetration issue but I do know several sites that delve into this in a very minute manner.

From my conversations with ex and current military members and current police officers, the .223 is chosen due to the high fragmentation rate and loss of velocity: less chance of hitting person next door.

Disclaimer: I am in no way an expert and this is my and their opinion.

Their opinion is factually correct.

X-Rap
May 8, 2013, 11:42 AM
I would agree on the ammo being a factor in penetration. I load mine with 55gr. Ballistic Tips around home. They won't hardly go through a prairie dog without coming apart.

Warp
May 8, 2013, 11:49 AM
Allow me to get right to the heart of that third link I provided above. Written by none other than Doctor Roberts (I dare you to find a more expert witness on this topic than him):

" Keep in mind that over the past 20 years, the vast majority of the 5.56mm/.223 loads we tested have exhibited significantly less penetration than 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and 12 ga. shotgun projectiles after first penetrating through interior walls. Stray 5.56mm/.223 bullets seem to offer a reduced risk of injuring innocent bystanders and an inherent reduced risk of civil litigation in situations where bullets miss their intended target and enter or exit structures, thus 5.56mm/.223 caliber weapons may be safer to use in CQB situations, home defense scenarios, and in crowded urban environments than handgun service caliber or 12 ga. weapons. "

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=44869

bigdaa
May 8, 2013, 11:54 AM
I think you have an ax to grind there, warp.

Why don't you relax and let things beyond your control be as they may. There's no reason to be slanderous and snide.

I happen to have a shelf full of penatrators on hand as well as 55 FMJ's +C. I have 80's and 62's. I've got M856's and even more.

So what? You can no more guarantee that my neighbor would be safe than I can and there's no need to hissy fit over it.

You can offer your opinion and I can offer mine. I will lean to the safe side and you will lean towards volumes of tests and other opinions.

There is no need to blindly flail in indignation here.

I never professed gospel.

Warp
May 8, 2013, 11:58 AM
I think you have an ax to grind there, warp.

Why don't you relax and let things beyond your control be as they may. There's no reason to be slanderous and snide.

I happen to have a shelf full of penatrators on hand as well as 55 FMJ's +C. I have 80's and 62's. I've got M856's and even more.

So what? You can no more guarantee that my neighbor would be safe than I can and there's no need to hissy fit over it.

You can offer your opinion and I can offer mine. I will lean to the safe side and you will lean towards volumes of tests and other opinions.

There is no need to blindly flail in indignation here.

I never professed gospel.



What happens when various projectiles encounter barriers isn't a matter of opinion. That's the thing. This is all actual factual information that has been proven over and over again, for years and years.

I dislike when people spread false information. If you get upset when corrected, that's your problem.

But, I am curious...what makes you think Doctor Roberts is wrong?

And what do you choose that you consider to be leaning to the safe side?

bigdaa
May 8, 2013, 12:14 PM
First, don't put words in my mouth. I got a wife for that. Never id I ever say the Doctor was wrong. If we are going to engage in a ball game, quit moving the hoop.


Warp, by the Doctors own explanation, I lay this at your lap to absorb:


"Barrier Blind means the terminal performance of the projectile is not changed after first penetrating an intermediate barrier."



Understanding that by my own 35 years of seat of the pants flying, this sums up my concerns to collateral damage in my urban setting.

While I cannot take the individual losses in kinetic energy per encountered target in the real scenario I describe, I can "feel" what the bullet has to offer by seeing years of impacts in kind of a cloud format of information.

We all have a certain amount of recollection of target impacts and secondary damage results and I am no exception.

I'll fully admit that I could be wrong here in certain specific scenarios, but dammit, all it takes is one that I have described being correct to have horrendous outcomes.

In this situation, indignation need not play into the formula.
These "ancillary" barriers are not water based and may not induce the power robbing keyhole effect letting the bullet perform more as a penetrating object than a side-on effectively higher caliber intruder to soft tissue.

mdauben
May 8, 2013, 12:28 PM
So I am considering int he next year or so getting a compact rifle that shoots .223 for something to maneuver around the house with, in a home defense scenario.
The obvious choice is one of the many varieties of AR. The currenly "standard" 16in carbines with collapable stocks would probably be a perfectily fine choice. If you really want to minimize the size, you could build one with a 14.5 inch barrel and permenantly attached flash suppressor (anything smaller whould be a SBR and require a NFA tax stamp). From there, you can go from out-of-the-box stock to as highly modified as you want.

Prices on ARs are coming back down again so sub-$2K is easily achievable with one of the quality manufacturers.

You won't get a G36 here in the US.
Heh! I was confused at first as to why one wouldn't find a Glock 36 in the US? Then I realized you were talking about the H&K carbine. :rolleyes:

JShirley
May 8, 2013, 12:30 PM
Scientific fact is different than mere opinion. 5.56mm is a safer choice for home defense with almost all ammunition. This is fact.

bigdaa, you are quoting the description of a single type of new 5.56 round, the MK 318. This seems disengenuous at best, and more like a deliberate attempt to deceive. The MK 318 is as like something like Federal 50-grain JHP as a Golden Saber bullet is like a Glaser Blue. :rolleyes:

You are off-topic, you demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of the topic, and you're just plain wrong.

John

bigdaa
May 8, 2013, 12:38 PM
Scientific fact is different than mere opinion. 5.56mm is a safer choice for home defense with almost all ammunition. This is fact.
Well, in my feeble opinion, that would make our choice of caliber lead to a crappy battle implement from the get go.

bigdaa
May 8, 2013, 12:40 PM
The obvious choice is one of the many varieties of AR. The currenly "standard" 16in carbines with collapable stocks would probably be a perfectily fine choice. If you really want to minimize the size, you could build one with a 14.5 inch barrel and permenantly attached flash suppressor (anything smaller whould be a SBR and require a NFA tax stamp). From there, you can go from out-of-the-box stock to as highly modified as you want.



:
I see that mdauben and I are on the same page with a short carbine. You can obtain an 11 inch barrel with a 5 inch flash hider. I happen to have that particular flash hider from DPMS on my 16 inch carbine.

Warp
May 8, 2013, 12:44 PM
Scientific fact is different than mere opinion. 5.56mm is a safer choice for home defense with almost all ammunition. This is fact.

Aren't facts a wonderful thing?

Art Eatman
May 8, 2013, 12:52 PM
A light varmint bullet of 50 to 55 grains would be the least harmful bullet to neighbors. Whatever might penetrate a neighbor's wall would be very much slowed down, and very likely much reduced in size/weight.

Less risk of harm than with almost any other bullet, anyhow.

For sure, inside a house, a light varmint bullet would be quite adequately effective in defensive use. Does horrible things inside a coyote, anyhow. :)

bigdaa
May 8, 2013, 01:00 PM
I have to say that it all comes down to the choice of ammo you put in your AR defense gun. The thin skin match bullets and like you say, eatman.....varmint rounds which are meant to be very explosive would offer the protection and safety over secondary wound infliction.

In this regard, we are all able to be specifically outfitted with a tailor made round to the circumstances we find ourselves in with our home and neighbor considerations.

Frangible rounds would suit the close packed neighbor situations to boot.


I did notice that you blithely skipped over the Doctor's offering of:

"Barrier Blind means the terminal performance of the projectile is not changed after first penetrating an intermediate barrier." Warp.

Now, what were you saying about facts being wonderful?

C-grunt
May 8, 2013, 01:04 PM
Well, in my feeble opinion, that would make our choice of caliber lead to a crappy battle implement from the get go.
That's why they say ALMOST ALL instead of all. M855 can go through a lot of things. In Iraq we used to "prep" buildings we were going into by shooting them a bit first. I have a friend whose father in law ND'd his AR in his home and the M855 went through his entire house, including to slabs of granite in the bathroom.

On the opposite side my department uses 55 grain hollow point Federal Tactical as our duty round. In our own testing this round won't reliably penetrate an interior wall if it hits a stud. However it is incredibly devastating against bad guys.

X-Rap
May 8, 2013, 01:06 PM
I would be interested in hearing what bullets were tested in the penetration tests. Even soft point 223 will easily pass through a 6-8" live tree trunk. FMJ makes quick work of 1/4" mild steel at 100 yds.
I haven't personally tested these bullets on multiple layers so I don't know what happens past the steel plate but I suspect that a bullet with a solid jacket or penetrator core would pass easily through a few layers of sheetrock and plywood.
Hollow points or hyper expansion bullets like Ballistic Tips are vastly different in performance and I have seen a Ballistic Tip that shattered on a coyotes front leg with the shards of bullet being all that past into the chest to kill it.

JShirley
May 8, 2013, 01:08 PM
Scientific fact is different than mere opinion. 5.56mm is a safer choice for home defense with almost all ammunition. This is fact.
Well, in my feeble opinion, that would make our choice of caliber lead to a crappy battle implement from the get go.

Since the human body is only about 12" deep, I disagree. The 5.56x45mm has adequate range and terminal effects for infantry use- something else I understand from an experential and historical basis.

John

bigdaa
May 8, 2013, 01:08 PM
That's why they say ALMOST ALL instead of all. M855 can go through a lot of things. In Iraq we used to "prep" buildings we were going into by shooting them a bit first. I have a friend whose father in law ND'd his AR in his home and the M855 went through his entire house, including to slabs of granite in the bathroom.

On the opposite side my department uses 55 grain hollow point Federal Tactical as our duty round. In our own testing this round won't reliably penetrate an interior wall if it hits a stud. However it is incredibly devastating against bad guys.
Wow! Not even a stud?

I am quite aware of Corbons method of using light projectiles at hyper velocities to obtain obscene energy.

K.E.= 1/2mv, and it shows up quite well in their offerings.

The remnants of that Fed Tac H.P. must be hard to count, eh?

X-Rap
May 8, 2013, 01:08 PM
Sorry my point was made while typing.

bigdaa
May 8, 2013, 01:11 PM
Since the human body is only about 12" deep, I disagree. The 5.56x45mm has adequate range and terminal effects for infantry use- something else I understand from an experential and historical basis.

John
"Bodies" tend to hide themselves in battle as C-grunt illustrates.

This is the consideration I had in mind when I made that statement.

Opposition in the open.........one thing.


Opposition behind a mud wall...........another thing.


I know one thing for certain, I will be behind a barrier, the best I can find in any altercation.

Warp
May 8, 2013, 01:14 PM
I have to say that it all comes down to the choice of ammo you put in your AR defense gun. The thin skin match bullets and like you say, eatman.....varmint rounds which are meant to be very explosive would offer the protection and safety over secondary wound infliction.

In this regard, we are all able to be specifically outfitted with a tailor made round to the circumstances we find ourselves in with our home and neighbor considerations.

Frangible rounds would suit the close packed neighbor situations to boot.


I did notice that you blithely skipped over the Doctor's offering of:

"Barrier Blind means the terminal performance of the projectile is not changed after first penetrating an intermediate barrier." Warp.

Now, what were you saying about facts being wonderful?

The troll is strong in you. Quite reminiscent of somebody I know, actually...

If you are concerned with penetration through walls in your HD firearm, why are you loading a barrier blind round? :confused:

What do you propose as a better option than 5.56/.223, and why?

JShirley
May 8, 2013, 01:34 PM
The MK 318 was specifically designed to penetrate light barriers in a straight line- because other 5.56mm rounds don't tend to do this. Gotta admit, you do seem to be trolling, daa.

bigdaa
May 8, 2013, 01:39 PM
I can only say that you demand attention and a pulpit.
I have other things to do than fill your spare time and need for conflict.

I've presented my opinion here and further dialog with you takes away from the OP's desire of learning how to employ his or her AR for a home defense appliance.

While I can't tell you the right thing to do here, I can take a "higher road" concerning our confrontation.

You do not have any idea what I load, you don't know what gat I'll pick up for defense but I will give you a bit of advice you can count on:

What gun would I pick to defend my family and self in an emergency?


The gun that is loaded.




Good luck, PaisteMage.

Dave

Warp
May 8, 2013, 01:42 PM
I've presented my opinion here

Your opinion is factually incorrect. ;)

moxie
May 8, 2013, 01:53 PM
Great advice above. I offer the following 2 comments:

For home defense keep it simple with plain "iron" sights. No scopes, etc. A Magpul MBUS rear sight and the generic issue front sight will do all you need. Also it's cheap.

Save the 30 round mags for backup. Keep a 20 rounder in the gun for first use. Much handier and allows you to shoot from prone easier.

bigdaa
May 8, 2013, 01:55 PM
"Your opinion is factually incorrect. ;)"




Ahhhhhhh hell, they get that way now and then.:eek:

Warp
May 8, 2013, 02:01 PM
Great advice above. I offer the following 2 comments:

For home defense keep it simple with plain "iron" sights. No scopes, etc. A Magpul MBUS rear sight and the generic issue front sight will do all you need. Also it's cheap.

Save the 30 round mags for backup. Keep a 20 rounder in the gun for first use. Much handier and allows you to shoot from prone easier.

There is nothing wrong with using good old iron sights, especially if that's what you are comfortable/experienced/familiar with. Pretty sure some quality iron sights will never fail you.

There is also nothing wrong with a quality optic. Time and experience has shown some optics to be quicker/faster than iron sights, and perhaps better in low/very-low light situations as well. For a home defense gun I think you'd be hard pressed to beat an Aimpoint on that front, for example. There are also some very good illuminated reticle variable power scopes with a "True 1x" bottom end that would do well, but from a purely home defense standpoint I'd rather have an Aimpoint than a 1-4/6/8 optic, anyway.

As for the magazine size and prone shooting, some people prefer a 30 round magazine for prone shooting, choosing to use it as a monopod. Your own personal preferences, experiences, and shooting method/style will dictate whether you prefer 20 or 30 round magazines.

For a person new to the platform, try both and see what you prefer.

PaisteMage
May 8, 2013, 02:23 PM
Personally I have never used a red dot sight, just a standard 4x scope on rifles.

I might have to piece together the rifle depending on price or wait a little longer to find one complete set up.

I would prefer it to be pretty bare so I can work up and add options if I choose.

MtnCreek
May 8, 2013, 03:16 PM
I would prefer it to be pretty bare so I can work up and add options if I choose.

Good plan. I do suggest getting a flat top upper; that will give a lot more options down the road.

Shopping list should look something like:
Rifle w/ detachable carry handle/sight.
Min 2ea 20 or 30 rd Pmags.
Basic sling.
Cleaning equip.
Ammo.

Learn the rifle and try to get your hands on others at the range to see what you like.

Does Wis have any 'evil rifle' laws? A lot of the rifles that cannot have flash hiders / threaded barrels have brakes perm attached. That will make a loud rifle unbearable. I use plugs and muffs with braked AR's, so something to consider when shopping (if applicable).

Ed Ames
May 8, 2013, 03:34 PM
I suspect, but cannot prove, that if you are given the two following choices, B will be more effective at preventing overpenetration-related injury.

A) Buy a mid-tier AR 15, at $1000-1500, a bunch of magazines, and enough ammo to fill all the magazines. Take the gun to the range and shoot it, off a bench, but not so much that all your magazines are empty. Take it home and feel safer.

B) Buy a Mossberg Maverick 88 12ga at $190, about $800 worth of various ammo, and spend the rest of your money on tactical shotgun training. If you have any ammo left at the end of that, spend it shooting at moving targets or while moving. Keep $5 worth of the ammo in reserve for defensive use.

Obviously the best choice would be combining .223 and training but if you are dealing with a $2k starting budget you aren't going to have a lot of spare cash to pay for the training or practice.

But that's not what the OP was asking....

There is a lot of good advice on choosing ARs. I can't really add to that body of knowledge except to say that the AR is the only type of gun I have personally seen someone take a hammer (OK, a hard plastic mallet) to at a range to clear a jam. The range actually had a hammer on hand for just that use apparently. Worse, they failed and had to bag up the apparently still loaded rifle so they could take it to a gunsmith. To me that says, "don't cheap out."

Good red dots are awesome. A good sight can cost about as much as the rifle and is worth it. Not as important as training/practice, but it should definitely come before the appearance mods.

Warp
May 8, 2013, 03:39 PM
There is a lot of good advice on choosing ARs. I can't really add to that body of knowledge except to say that the AR is the only type of gun I have personally seen someone take a hammer (OK, a hard plastic mallet) to at a range to clear a jam. The range actually had a hammer on hand for just that use apparently. Worse, they failed and had to bag up the apparently still loaded rifle so they could take it to a gunsmith. To me that says, "don't cheap out."


That does say don't cheap out.

And I'm betting there is a good chance they were shooting cheap steel case Russian manufactured ammo.

MtnCreek
May 8, 2013, 03:55 PM
^ Or improperly set up seating die causing a slight bulge at the body/shoulder. Release the bolt carrier and smack the forward assist on one of those and it will lock it up pretty good....so I've been told. :)

TIMC
May 8, 2013, 03:57 PM
Compact and easy to handle in confined space. Just picked up this RR AR 15 pistol for $900 new. I added a couple of goodies, With the suppressor it is sweet.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v369/timc/B3B5A8BC-5BDA-4E65-BABF-9F3E88FDD58A-30312-0000326E85D9508E_zps406796a3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v369/timc/4364BA23-CF46-43E6-8CCC-2A0AC815DC2D-30312-0000326E5C2DADB6_zpsafcca8d4.jpg

Art Eatman
May 8, 2013, 04:21 PM
bigdaa, I generally limit my comments to what I know from experience. I do figure, however, that some sixty-plus years with all manner of centerfires has taught me a little bit. :)

Ed Ames
May 8, 2013, 04:28 PM
Or improperly set up seating die causing a slight bulge at the body/shoulder. Release the bolt carrier and smack the forward assist on one of those and it will lock it up pretty good....so I've been told

Was that in relation to the mallet story?

I don't know any real details about that except a) they seemed to have boxes of factory ammo on their table, b) the problem was keeping them from unloading, and perhaps disassembling, the rifle, c) the owners of the rifle couldn't figure the problem out, so they sought help from the rangemaster, who poked around and went away to get his hammer, and who eventually gave up, and d) by this point I was concerned enough about what was happening a couple tables down from me that I had stopped shooting and listened as the range master told them to make sure the safety was on, pack it up, and take it to a gunsmith to get it unloaded. A forward assist wouldn't help.

I think probably some steel case ammo glued itself into a hot chamber. They were treating it as a live round but it may not have been. I have heard similar horror stories about rifles with loc-tite instead of staking and the like too though. Either way, it ended the owner's shooting day and limited the effectiveness of the weapon.

mac66
May 8, 2013, 04:28 PM
Personally if I was going to recommend a carbine for protection inside a home I would recommend a pistol caliber carbine in the same caliber as my pistol. Since I really don't see the point of a pistol caliber in a rifle, I would recommend just using the pistol. It is a lot easier to move around in the house with.

I would highly recommend an AR15 for mutant, zombie, biker, aliens invading from outer space however.

JShirley
May 8, 2013, 04:36 PM
PCCs will penetrate more than standard .223 with almost any ammo.

Shotguns with 00 can be effective at close range, but 00 will pentrate 50-100% more (22") than .223 in tissue.

John

C0untZer0
May 8, 2013, 04:46 PM
Tavor TAR-21

It has a full length 18" barrel so you're not losing any velocity or creating gigantic fireballs with some short barrel, but it's very short OAL - 28"

dprice3844444
May 8, 2013, 04:49 PM
inexpensive smith & wesson sport ar-15 will do just fine.if you have to give it up because you had to shoot somebody,it's less of a financial hit than a colt,or any of the other major manufacturers.then you can buy more ammo

Roadking Rider
May 8, 2013, 04:50 PM
Mini 14 ranch rifle. There short, light, and very reliable.
183731

Ar180shooter
May 8, 2013, 05:03 PM
You won't get a G36 here in the US.

If I were in your boat I would take an AR any day. The Mini 14s are overpriced right now, and ARs are rapidly decreasing in price. Find yourself a Colt 6920 and be happy.
Yah, an SL8 converted with a G36 lower/folding stock is as close as you're going to get, and you're talking $4000 give or take for the rifle and a properly done conversion.

Ar180shooter
May 8, 2013, 05:05 PM
Tavor TAR-21

It has a full length 18" barrel so you're not losing any velocity or creating gigantic fireballs with some short barrel, but it's very short OAL - 28"
That's a good idea. I love the Tavors. They point well and if the U.S. manufactured ones are like the Israeli ones, they are built to last.

sixgunner455
May 8, 2013, 05:42 PM
Ed Ames - why should he should the AR off the bench, besides to zero it (done properly, that's 6-9 rounds)?

I can certainly see the economic viewpoint on the shotgun vs the AR, but the fact remains that the AR recoils much less (shot-to-shot recovery), holds more ammo, has greater effective range when needed, penetrates house materials less when you're smart about the ammo you load in it, and is shorter and more compact than a properly stocked shotgun (pistol gripped shotguns being very unpleasant to shoot at all, and less effective than one with a stock).

If you can afford the AR, get one, and learn to use it. If you can't, get a shotgun and learn to use it. Ignore Mr. "shoot two blasts into the air" and get the training Mr. Ames suggests. In the end, neither is a magic talisman. They are simply tools in the hands of a trained or untrained person. You are the one who makes the decision on which to buy, and whether you will be trained or not.

Ed Ames
May 8, 2013, 05:58 PM
Why?

Because traditional rifle ranges usually only allow shooting rifles off a bench, Wisconsin doesn't offer the same public land shooting opportunities as the west, and most people don't have enough private land for shooting. That leaves tactical training which is expensive.

If you spend $1100 on a colt 69xx (whatever), $500 on accessories including magazines and sights (easy with an AR), and $400 on ammo, there is no money left for training. You fire off your 600 rounds or so and go home.

I wasn't trying to argue that a Maverick 88 is better than a colt 69xx. I was arguing that a person with $1000 worth of real training is less likely to get into overpenetration trouble than someone who has only shot paper at a traditional range.

Warp
May 8, 2013, 06:10 PM
Why?

Because traditional rifle ranges usually only allow shooting rifles off a bench, Wisconsin doesn't offer the same public land shooting opportunities as the west, and most people don't have enough private land for shooting. That leaves tactical training which is expensive.

If you spend $1100 on a colt 69xx (whatever), $500 on accessories including magazines and sights (easy with an AR), and $400 on ammo, there is no money left for training. You fire off your 600 rounds or so and go home.

I wasn't trying to argue that a Maverick 88 is better than a colt 69xx. I was arguing that a person with $1000 worth of real training is less likely to get into overpenetration trouble than someone who has only shot paper at a traditional range.

http://www.appleseedinfo.org/search-states-display.php?qstate=WI&statename=Wisconsin

BTW: If the budget is tight, don't spend $500 on accessories. Like I am pretty sure I said earlier in this thread, spend $90 on (6) magazines and whatever it costs to get a sling. There are your accessories...finished. Even if you go all out on the sling you are looking at $200 or less. Probably less. `

sixgunner455
May 8, 2013, 06:12 PM
I didn't think that you were arguing that the shotgun>AR, just that training and practice>just benched AR shooting, and I couldn't understand why a guy would limit himself like that.

I live in the west, so perhaps my perspective is skewed, but even "traditional" rifle ranges here allow position shooting - standing, sitting, kneeling, prone. You may not be able to shoot and move, but at least, you aren't sitting in a chair.

Being that I am in AZ, I do go out on public lands with friends and arrange tactical lanes for rifle, pistol, and shotgun. Most of us are combat vets, so we are familiar with the AR to begin with. If I weren't so familiar with it, I would definitely be seeking out some additional training. Training may be expensive, but that hurts less than not getting it and needing it.

eta: +1 on Appleseed. It's not the most "tactical" of training (hard to shoot and move in a line like that), but for someone unfamiliar with rifles, it is probably the least expensive/most effective for the dollar rifle shooting training you can get.

Ed Ames
May 8, 2013, 06:28 PM
Warp, I've never been to an Appleseed, but everything I've read including their information says it is NOT combat firearm training. It is basic marksmanship. I think that's great and it is certainly better than nothing but it's apples and oranges. And even if you only spend $100 on accessories, $400 won't cover the cost of any reputable carbine course I've ever heard of.

Sixgunner, yes Arizona is warping your perspective. I wish I still had the same warp! :) I spent years able to head out onto empty BLM land and do any sort of shooting I wanted. The other side of the Rockies is different in my experience. Beyond that, Wisconsin has special factors. I have family there and while I'm not an expert I'm more than passingly familiar. It's partly suburban Chicago, Madison wishes it was San Francisco, and most of the shooting that does exist is Fud-centric. That doesn't help.

The OP doesn't sound like a combat vet.

Ideally the OP would get an AR AND training. If he can't afford both, he should seriously think about priorities.

allaroundhunter
May 8, 2013, 06:31 PM
spend $90 on (6) magazines

I don't know where the heck you are finding those prices right now...

And I would not recommend an Appleseed for the OP, he would be in greater need of a basic defensive carbine course (if he only has the funds for a single class).

$400 won't cover the cost of any reputable carbine course I've ever heard of.

Perhaps it won't get you a class at Gunsite or TacPro, but there are other instructors who don't charge $800+ who are plenty qualified. I have a friend who is a former Army SF soldier who now runs a training program. $400 will get you a class with him (and will cover the ammo you have to buy for it), and it will get you a very good class. Police department SWAT teams in the area use him as an instructor and he has made a good name for himself.

Warp
May 8, 2013, 06:37 PM
Wrap, I've never been to an Appleseed, but everything I've read including their information says it is NOT combat firearm training. It is basic marksmanship.

Fundamental. Not basic. ;)


I think that's great and it is certainly better than nothing but it's apples and oranges.

I disagree. The fundamentals are the fundamentals.


And even if you only spend $100 on accessories, $400 won't cover the cost of any reputable carbine course I've ever heard of.

No, it won't. $2,000 isn't enough to get the rifle, magazines, ammo, a sling, AND a good tactical/carbine course. It just isn't. No argument there.



Appleseed teaches the fundamentals. It puts you on a clock. It includes shooting standing, seated/kneeling, and prone...transitions from standing to seated/kneeling and standing to prone...and reloads.

An Appleseed weekend or three is a FANTASTIC place to start, and it sure as hell fixes that supposed problem about only being able to shoot from the bench at local ranges.

Appleseed will cover topics including, but not limited to:

Using a USGI web sling as a shooting aid in all positions as both a loop sling and a hasty sling, and possibly a hasty-hasty sling; the six steps of firing the shot; natural point of aim; steady hold factors in the three main positions of standing, seated, and prone; what MOA is and how to calculate and use it and how to use it to adjust your sights; talking targets/shot group diagnosis, Liberty; heritage; and depending on the range and specific shoot some full distance shooting and discussion on target identification and range estimation.

Now, if you know all of these things like the back of your you hand, if you can consistently put 4 MOA holes in paper from an unsupported prone position, if you can rapid fire hit a man sized silhouette at 200 yards seated, if you can recite the six steps of firing the shot to me, maybe you should be going to the Appleseeds so that you can take an orange hat and start giving back. Otherwise you might want to consider going so that you can learn of those things (and much more)....and worry about taking the hat later. :cool:

Ed Ames
May 8, 2013, 06:48 PM
Sounds like basic marksmanship to me. The stuff my ex-USMC (of the era where they used Garands in basic training) father taught me before I had ever fired a real gun.

Which means it sounds like great stuff. I like it.

But it's not the same. More to the point, I don't think it is enough different than shooting from a bench to make a difference in a real-world defensive situation.

Warp
May 8, 2013, 06:57 PM
Sounds like basic marksmanship to me. The stuff my ex-USMC (of the era where they used Garands in basic training) father taught me before I had ever fired a real gun.

Which means it sounds like great stuff. I like it.

But it's not the same. More to the point, I don't think it is enough different than shooting from a bench to make a difference in a real-world defensive situation.

Fundamental. Not basic. ;)

Yes, the Marine Corps teaches all of the marines fundamental marksmanship, to this day. Pretty similar stuff to what you get at an Appleseed, from what I understand.

Ed Ames, perhaps you learned most (or all) of that from your father. But the OP of this thread may not know it. And I am of the opinion that anybody and everybody who wants to be competent with a rifle ought to know these things. They are fundamental.

And it is VERY different from going to the range, sitting down at a bench, and firing away. For one thing, just going to the range and firing from the bench isn't going to teach you a darn thing about, well, pretty much any of the stuff you learn at an Appleseed (or a USMC boot camp). And it will be from a bench. It won't be standing. It won't be kneeling. It won't be seated. And it won't be prone unsupported. It may not even be "rapid fire" either, as many ranges have rules against that.

An Appleseed weekend or three is an excellent place to start and an excellent way to learn the fundamentals.

And the most it will cost anybody is $80 for the full weekend. Some (such as women and youth) are less expensive. And one youth shoots free with every paid adult.

Ed Ames
May 8, 2013, 07:12 PM
Moving past semantics, I don't think the skills from an Appleseed are enough for the use the OP intends. It isn't a slam against the Appleseed concept or intended to discourage anyone from going to an Appleseed, but an acknowledgement that they are apples and oranges.

Appleseed doesn't even try to provide defensive carbine training. A defensive carbine course may not even try to provide sling training. They are different.

Warp
May 8, 2013, 07:14 PM
Moving past semantics, I don't think the skills from an Appleseed are enough for the use the OP intends. It isn't a slam against the Appleseed concept or intended to discourage anyone from going to an Appleseed, but an acknowledgement that they are apples and oranges.

Appleseed doesn't even try to provide defensive carbine training. A defensive carbine course may not even try to provide sling training. They are different.

So then do both.

Is there a specific carbine course that you would like to insist the OP attend? When, where, and at what cost?

What, in your opinion, is the least amount of tactical style training a person should have before using a firearm for home defense?

Ed Ames
May 8, 2013, 07:26 PM
From the bottom up...

Set up some targets at different ranges, including fairly close. Set up obstacles. Have a course you must move through. Use a timer. Ideally have competition. Then set up some different real-world objects as targets. Shoot them with a pistol, a pistol caliber rifle, a shotgun with birdshot/buckshot/slugs, a low/intermediate power rifle (.223), and a high power rifle, moving and still, in different positions, around/under obstacles. Do this safely, properly, quickly. That's the minimum. Out west a group of friends can do that on their own for the price of ammo, gas, and trash bags. The further east you go, the more you need to join some formal training in order to have access to a safe place to do that. By the time you hit Texas it seems to cost about $600/day or more. It might actually be cheaper to take a vacation to the west, camping and shooting on BLM land, but most people won't do it.

No, nothing specific. Such things change all the time anyway.

Doing both is fine and I never said a word against the idea. But only doing the Appleseed is not enough.

PaisteMage
May 8, 2013, 07:33 PM
Some things to consider in all your wonderful comments.

My firend, who is an NRA certified instructor, and who has over 20 years in the Army has said he would give me lessons on HIS gun until I can get one. That doesnt help since I wouldnt be learning MY gun...but still a few free lessons getting to know the platform doesnt hurt.

A second friend , who is also quite familiar with the AR platform, has one and offered me to shoot.

As far as Wisconsin rifle etiquette at the range I am unsure of VERY specifics.

Most people shoot from bench, so I ASSUME that that is what you have to do at the range. I may be wrong, never really looked into it.

Another question...

Is 5.56 like a .357 (how you can shoot .38s out of it as well) where you can shoot .223 out of it as well?

This purchase is going to be somewhere around the begining of the year and funds are being put towards the rifle purchase bits at a time.

Hence why my knowledge seeking.

Warp
May 8, 2013, 07:38 PM
Some things to consider in all your wonderful comments.

My firend, who is an NRA certified instructor, and who has over 20 years in the Army has said he would give me lessons on HIS gun until I can get one. That doesnt help since I wouldnt be learning MY gun...but still a few free lessons getting to know the platform doesnt hurt.

A second friend , who is also quite familiar with the AR platform, has one and offered me to shoot.

As far as Wisconsin rifle etiquette at the range I am unsure of VERY specifics.

Most people shoot from bench, so I ASSUME that that is what you have to do at the range. I may be wrong, never really looked into it.

Another question...

Is 5.56 like a .357 (how you can shoot .38s out of it as well) where you can shoot .223 out of it as well?

This purchase is going to be somewhere around the begining of the year and funds are being put towards the rifle purchase bits at a time.

Hence why my knowledge seeking.

Don't assume. Most people shoot from the bench because they don't know the fundamentals and wouldn't hit very well if they got off the bench and used unsupported field positions, and a lot of people just shoot slow fire for pretty 3 shot groups they can show to other people. Or they are just sighting in a hunting rifle that will be fired in a similar fashion, and have no need to get off the bench.



Yes, you can shoot .223 out of a 5.56 chamber. Perfectly fine and very common. No reason not to.

You should not shoot 5.56 out of a .223 chamber, but any AR you encounter that isn't a POS will be chambered in 5.56 NATO. (or .223 wylde, which can handle 5.56 anyway)

If you don't plan to get the rifle for 6+ months, ammo should be less expensive by then.

PaisteMage
May 9, 2013, 02:12 AM
THere are things I know a lot about: drums, cars, kids, being a dad.

If my ignorance somewhat seems appalling to you old school AR guys, I applaud your patience.

I have been reading a lot lately about the topic and wanted some perspective from the community at large.

The article referenced, the forum mentioned, and the website suggested I have all read today.

Thanks for an upstart into this platform to all on this forum.

Despite the inevitable debates on ballistics, round "superiority" or any of that, this has been informative.

Iramo94
May 9, 2013, 04:45 AM
For safety, I'll add that unlike the .38/.357 analogy, 5.56 CAN fit into a .223 chamber. The gun is not going to save you by having a jam the way a .38 revolver would. That's why just getting a 5.56 chambered gun would be the best.

sixgunner455
May 9, 2013, 04:47 AM
Don't be afraid to ask questions. Ignorance + questions and a willing attitude = a learning. We are all still learning. Anyone in the shooting sports who is serious about them is interested in mentoring new shooters.

Welcome! :D

My son and I just bought a drum kit from a guy on Craigslist. Came with a Paiste hi-hat. We are noobs in that area - I ask my friends who are drummers all kinds of ignorant, noob questions.

This is no different.

Oh, the .223 vs 5.56 thing: 5.56 chambers are cut with slightly different dimensions. Military 5.56 ammo is made with longer than standard .223 bullets, and 5.56 chambers are cut to accomodate those bullets. .223 functions just fine in 5.56 chambers. 5.56 ammo *may* have problems functioning in .223 cut chambers, but most rifles with .223 chambers are match/target/bolt action hunting rifles - and even most of those will not give you trouble with 5.56 ammo. An AR with a match chamber may be more picky about what ammo it will function with and shoot well with, but those kinds of specialty barrels and rifles aren't what you are talking about, and you probably won't run into any issues like that if you buy a bog-standard AR carbine from a reputable manufacturer. You just won't. I wouldn't give it another thought unless you decide to get a more specialized gun later on.

76shuvlinoff
May 9, 2013, 06:56 AM
I'm more of a lever guy but late last fall I bought the first AR I ever handled, a new Colt 6920, fortunately I bought a couple thousand rds of .223 about the same time ... and then the world fell apart. Now I'm just saving my nickles for a good red dot.

I paid more than these guys that put their own together but I sure didn't pay the prices I saw in the next 60 days. I'm glad to see prices are coming down with people financially, and better yet legally able to get into the AR platform.

PaisteMage
May 9, 2013, 10:02 AM
To those kind people that have given their input thus far:

IS traditional direct gas impingement or the piston/op rod style the preferred method for someone new to the AR setup?

Keep in mind I am halfway through school in Automotive technology and machinery does not make me wince. I am looking for efficiency and longevity
of the rifle. What was YOUR first set up modeled with?

Been doing some research...

Art Eatman
May 9, 2013, 10:20 AM
"IS traditional direct gas impingement or the piston/op rod style the preferred method..."

For all that some people get all emotional about it, I can't see that it makes much difference for a basic AR-15 rifle. Too many "road tests" which pretty much show equality.

Warp
May 9, 2013, 10:22 AM
To those kind people that have given their input thus far:

IS traditional direct gas impingement or the piston/op rod style the preferred method for someone new to the AR setup?

Keep in mind I am halfway through school in Automotive technology and machinery does not make me wince. I am looking for efficiency and longevity
of the rifle. What was YOUR first set up modeled with?

Been doing some research...

Direct impingement. No question.

DI is what the rifles were designed for and as.

It is the industry standard.

I'll keep this short and just say get a standard regular old DI rifle.


Don't be afraid to ask questions. Ignorance + questions and a willing attitude = a learning. We are all still learning. Anyone in the shooting sports who is serious about them is interested in mentoring new shooters.

Welcome! :D

My son and I just bought a drum kit from a guy on Craigslist. Came with a Paiste hi-hat. We are noobs in that area - I ask my friends who are drummers all kinds of ignorant, noob questions.

This is no different.

Oh, the .223 vs 5.56 thing: 5.56 chambers are cut with slightly different dimensions. Military 5.56 ammo is made with longer than standard .223 bullets, and 5.56 chambers are cut to accomodate those bullets. .223 functions just fine in 5.56 chambers. 5.56 ammo *may* have problems functioning in .223 cut chambers, but most rifles with .223 chambers are match/target/bolt action hunting rifles - and even most of those will not give you trouble with 5.56 ammo. An AR with a match chamber may be more picky about what ammo it will function with and shoot well with, but those kinds of specialty barrels and rifles aren't what you are talking about, and you probably won't run into any issues like that if you buy a bog-standard AR carbine from a reputable manufacturer. You just won't. I wouldn't give it another thought unless you decide to get a more specialized gun later on.
Concerning the safety of shooting one in the other, the big deal is that 5.56 is a higher pressure round than .223. That's the main reason you don't want to shoot 5.56 in a standard .223 chamber.

Art Eatman
May 9, 2013, 10:27 AM
All that's different between a 5.56 chamber and a .223 chamber is the length of the leade. The leade of the 5.56 chamber is a tad longer so as to accommodate longer bullets. The chamber pressure of the cartridges is as close to being the same as makes no nevermind. If the milspec round were all that much higher pressure, we'd have blown-up rifles all over the place.

Warp
May 9, 2013, 10:30 AM
All that's different between a 5.56 chamber and a .223 chamber is the length of the leade. The leade of the 5.56 chamber is a tad longer so as to accommodate longer bullets. The chamber pressure of the cartridges is as close to being the same as makes no nevermind. If the milspec round were all that much higher pressure, we'd have blown-up rifles all over the place.

55,000 PSI vs 62,366 PSI. Only about 13% higher max pressure on 5.56, I suppose.

bigdaa
May 9, 2013, 11:19 AM
55,000 PSI vs 62,366 PSI. Only about 13% higher max pressure on 5.56, I suppose.
From our good friends at Wikipedia:


"According to the official Commission Internationale Permanente pour l'Epreuve des Armes Feu Portatives (C.I.P.) guidelines the .223 Remington case can handle up to 430 MPa (62,366 psi) piezo pressure. In C.I.P. regulated countries every rifle cartridge combo has to be proofed at 125% of this maximum C.I.P. pressure to certify for sale to consumers. This is equal to the NATO maximum service pressure guideline for the 5.56x45mm NATO cartridge.

The SAAMI pressure limit for the .223 Remington is set at 379.212 MPa (55,000 psi), piezo pressure.[5]"

Warp
May 9, 2013, 01:45 PM
What effect does the chamber dimension have on pressure? If a 5.56 chamber is cut to allow for the longer bullet, and one of those already higher pressure 5.56 rounds is shoved into a .223 chamber, what does that do?

I have always only seen people who ought to know say not to fire 5.56 in a standard .223 chamber.

allaroundhunter
May 9, 2013, 01:58 PM
What effect does the chamber dimension have on pressure? If a 5.56 chamber is cut to allow for the longer bullet, and one of those already higher pressure 5.56 rounds is shoved into a .223 chamber, what does that do?

I have always only seen people who ought to know say not to fire 5.56 in a standard .223 chamber.

Nothing much happens at all. If anything, the case will stick in the chamber. The added pressure will still be forced out behind the bullet. I have never seen or heard about a legitimate incident in which firing 5.56 out of a .223 chamber caused problems.

PaisteMage
May 9, 2013, 02:59 PM
Thanks guys again for some clarification and insight.

I realize this may be opening a can of information worms! There is so many variables to consider.

How much did some of you spend on your first?

Again just looking consensus and opinions.

Warp
May 9, 2013, 03:25 PM
Thanks guys again for some clarification and insight.

I realize this may be opening a can of information worms! There is so many variables to consider.

How much did some of you spend on your first?

Again just looking consensus and opinions.

The AR15/M4 type platform is extremely modular and the options are seemingly endless.

If you don't watch yourself it gets expensive FAST.

My first/primary AR has a running-total expense of about $3,500 right now. It adds up fast. Over $1k for the rifle, $1k pretty easily to mount a nice optic (could be 2-3x that much), then misc for all the rest (rail, trigger, grip, stock, weapon light, etc)

sixgunner455
May 9, 2013, 06:38 PM
I built a pencil-barreled 16" KISS carbine for ~$650.00. It has a fixed carry handle upper, and works just like every rifle I ever carried in the Army (M16A1, M16A2, M4). It weighs about 6# and is my primary home defense weapon.

I have, this year, made a swap top upper for it in 6.8x43mm, and I am slightly embarrassed to admit to how much I have in it. I still don't have a dedicated bolt carrier for it, because I refuse to pay stupid money for one. It's wearing a big, heavy Zeiss scope that brings the total for just the upper, as it sits, to nearly $2k. It's functional now (and very, very accurate), but it's primary intent is as a hunting rifle, so I'm not going to leave the Zeiss target scope on it. I've got a couple of light, compact scopes on the way, so we'll see what it ends up weighing and looking like. Sooner or later, I'll probably pick up another lower reciever and then start building a proper lower for it, just because.

It's a project in progress.

Both of those uppers are DI. I wouldn't even consider a piston. Who wants the weight?

Ed Ames
May 9, 2013, 06:56 PM
My first started out a bit under 1k ready to shoot with one magazine. Not the cheapest it could've been.

By the time I stopped it was about $2700 not counting the .22lr upper or the magazines. That was red dot, magnifier, flip up backup sight, tricked out trigger, tritium front post, strap, replacement PG, and so on. I could easily have spent hundreds more and claimed that I was still making it "better". Of course that left me with some spare parts I could probably resell but who am I kidding? I won't.

There are minor differences in what I would do if I was starting over... E.g. I got a back up iron sight (buis) that had bullet drop compensation, but a front tritium post. Well, the rear sight is almost impossible to line up in the dark. I figured cheek weld would make that a non issue (as it is a non-issue with my m1a that has a similar configuration) but I was wrong. I should have used a much larger aperture rear sight, perhaps with tritium there too.... but overall I think it's nifty. ;)

meanmrmustard
May 9, 2013, 07:25 PM
Thanks guys again for some clarification and insight.

I realize this may be opening a can of information worms! There is so many variables to consider.

How much did some of you spend on your first?

Again just looking consensus and opinions.
Spent $1200 on my first.

$2500 on my second. Several have come and gone since then in that range.

My current fave...$1100. It's simple, has what it needs and nothing it doesn't for the use intended.

Outlaw Man
May 10, 2013, 11:32 AM
My first cost me about $800, but I've spent probably close to another $1500 on various accessories and replacement parts since then until it's finally exactly how I want it...for now. You can definitely get a good AR for under a grand (at least before this most recent panic). I'd recommend keeping it pretty simple - flat top, 16" barrel - unless you've had a little trigger time and know what you want. No need to waste money on fancy hand guards, stocks, etc that you may not like. Plus, half the fun is changing those yourself!!

As for 5.56 vs .223, I'll admit that on modern rifles, most people will probably never fire their rifle enough to see any damage. However, if you're looking for something as a defensive weapon, why wouldn't you do everything you could to make sure it feeds properly, including M4 feed ramps and "roomy" 5.56 chambering?

I do know someone who had an OLD Ruger Mini 14 that he suspects was damaged by the case of 5.56 he fired through it. I don't know the specifics, though.

moxie
May 10, 2013, 11:48 AM
Amen! Again the KISS principle applies.

Get a plain Jane name brand 16" AR in M-4 style (M-4gery), flat top with an MBUS rear sight.

Shoot it a lot, several thousand rounds. Take a course or two. Get reasonably proficient.

NOW, if so moved, modify as desired.

Ed Ames
May 10, 2013, 12:07 PM
I do know someone who had an OLD Ruger Mini 14 that he suspects was damaged by the case of 5.56 he fired through it. I don't know the specifics, though.
The mini-14 is designed to fire 5.56 (military) ammo and always has been. You can download the manual for a 1974 mini and it specifically says it is designed to fire 5.56.

Maybe he thought he went through the case too fast and caused heat damage to his mini? I'd believe that, given how they respond to the heat of even a few rounds.

bigdaa
May 10, 2013, 12:20 PM
The mini-14 is designed to fire 5.56 (military) ammo and always has been. You can download the manual for a 1974 mini and it specifically says it is designed to fire 5.56.

Maybe he thought he went through the case too fast and caused heat damage to his mini? I'd believe that, given how they respond to the heat of even a few rounds.
My SS mini of 1985 vintage I fired 90 rounds through it as fast as I could swap magazines.

It stayed hotter than a mother trucker and burned the leather carrying bag I set it on.

Still seems to shoot about the same after all these years.

I told myself that if it could not handle the 90 Israeli Military Industries 5.56 rounds I fed it, to Hades with it.


She is one of my kid's favorites!

PaisteMage
May 10, 2013, 09:41 PM
I am starting to get into modular synthesizers. Modular ANYTHING gets expensive and is full of variety.

Part of me is thinking of buying a lower, then upper, since that might be cheaper.

I can fix cars so a little rifle wont be hard to put together.

To me if I prefer to add optics and fancy bells and whistles, fine. I got to learn to shoot it first :)

Now to just acquire it!

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