Battle Rifle Company, not a glowing review.


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mastiffhound
May 8, 2013, 07:46 AM
I frequent The Firearm Blog on a daily basis for the gun, ammo, and gear reviews. I like them because unlike most gun rags you get mostly honest reviews. When I saw the review on Battle Rifle Company I got to hear about something I suspected not to long ago when researching for a friend.

Now for the review that I just read on Battle Rifle Company, it wasn't good. The author even goes as far as saying they are "pretty much the worst AR-15s I've ever seen". I have been thinking for some time about all the companies cropping up recently to take advantage of unsuspecting consumers that are getting into their first AR-15s. Here's the link:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/05/07/battle-rifle-company-ar-platform-rifles/

I recently was talking to a friend about his first AR and he mentioned a company that I had never heard of. He said that the AR's on their webpage looked "cool". Guess what this company's name was? I told him not to go for them because I couldn't find anything about what materials they use, even for their barrels. I did find that they cryogenically treat their barrels. I told him if I cryogenically treated my dogs crap guess what, it's still dog crap. The only other thing I found was they said that their bolts are shot peened and HPT/MPI tested, but with all the different places they get their bolts I wouldn't be sure of that either. He is now looking at Daniel Defense, Colt, Smith & Wesson, and Palmetto State Armory.

If you have friends or family that are looking to get into ARs then give them some help. When they start having problems you are going to be the one they call asking for help. Instead of saying "why didn't you ask me" or "Well I could have told you not to buy from that company" you can help them make an informed purchase.

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mrvco
May 8, 2013, 10:10 AM
There is big money in junk AR's.

Warp
May 8, 2013, 01:17 PM
lol

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=115755

Sam Cade
May 8, 2013, 01:22 PM
Wow. Someone was REALLY close to the bottom of the parts bin.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/exposedtube-660x441.jpg

adelbridge
May 8, 2013, 02:36 PM
I would probably never buy one but in their defense anyone can write a blog. Rock River cryo treats their barrels. That exposed gas tube is a joke.

Warp
May 8, 2013, 02:40 PM
I would probably never buy one but in their defense anyone can write a blog. Rock River cryo treats their barrels. That exposed gas tube is a joke.

If you'd like some verification you can read the thread I linked. ;)

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=115755

mrvco
May 9, 2013, 12:46 AM
They definitely went wrong trying to portray their image as serious guns for serious work, when they were actually throwing together look-alike guns for recreational use by the image conscious. Regardless, I can't quite tell if the owner honestly thought his company was assembling a good product or whether he trying to run a snow-job from the beginning, but he should have started with a less discerning audience than m4carbine.net.

Gunner777
May 9, 2013, 02:37 AM
After we posted Andrews article the video was marked as private and later removed. Sorry you can't see it. It's very much an eye opener!

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/05/07/battle-rifle-company-ar-platform-rifles/

Fishbed77
May 9, 2013, 11:25 AM
Regardless, I can't quite tell if the owner honestly thought his company was assembling a good product or whether he trying to run a snow-job from the beginning, but he should have started with a less discerning audience than m4carbine.net.

Yeah - he quickly got in over his head there.

oldschool AR
May 16, 2013, 02:42 AM
We had the opportunity to show everyone the performance of our rifles- so on May 14th, we took 2 different rifles and ran 1,000 rounds through them in less than 20 Minutes. Each rifle fired over 2 times the basic combat load in a short amount of time to show the performance- there were no cycling issues, both rifles performed spot on- and both were pulled directly off of the final inspection rack, straight to the firing line. For information about our rifles, contact us at info@battleriflecompany.com

http://youtu.be/xDRfI6Pro1U

Davek1977
May 16, 2013, 08:24 AM
One test does nothing to disprove the claims made at M4carbine.com. Sometimes, its better to admit mistakes rather than pretend they were intentional all along. I realize as a start-up company things are hard, but there's no excuse for being anything than honest with your potential customer base, especially when that customer base is very astute and knowledgeable about what your product SHOULD be as opposed to what it is. Claiming things like the gas tube was exposed for "intimidation" at "the request of a federal agency" is just silly talk that does nothing to lend credibility to your product, and instead hurts your reputation.

Warp
May 16, 2013, 10:40 AM
You just keep digging yourself deeper and deeper.

You better pull your head out of you-know-where before the panic completely settles and people think a little bit more about products they buy before their money comes out.

Sam Cade
May 16, 2013, 01:29 PM
Since a company rep is now a member, we can get some questions answered.

What components of this rifle are actually manufactured in house by BRC?

What components are NOT?




http://www.battleriflecompany.com/content/what_makes_our_/what_makes_our_.asp
Every Battle Rifle is equipped with:

Each rifle has a guarantee from factory defects and workmanship



It is guaranteed FROM workmanship? Ok. That is funny.


Edit: I pulled the FFL associated with Christopher Kurzadkowski and it does show him as a 07. Anyone have the link for the ATF report that shows number and type of firearms manufactured by a License holder? I can't seem to find it.
Edit Edit: Found it, but complete ends in 2009. Hmmm.

Sam Cade
May 16, 2013, 01:56 PM
Ah-HA!

Better data!

Christopher Kurzadkowski "manufactured" 33 rifles in 2011.

Of course, In the BATF view, slapping the upper and lower together constitutes manufacturing.

oldschool AR
May 16, 2013, 02:52 PM
The video is real- 1000 rds in 20 minutes- no CGI, real people, real bullets.

Everyone starts somewhere- DD,RR,LMT,Noveske all started out of small shops, years ago.

The 308 with the exposed gas tube was an experiment- and a mistake- I don't have a problem admitting that. That is no longer something we have, and have not offered it for sale.

The oversights have been corrected- both in procedure and personnel. We as a company are moving forward. If you would like to test fire and see the process of how we produce our rifles, I offer an open door invitation to any of you. Contact me at info@battleriflecompany.com

taliv
May 16, 2013, 03:01 PM
oldschool, welcome to THR

my feedback is your website is the source of a lot of the controversy. you are setting the expectation that your ARs are much better than others. and you repeatedly state that you will explain or guide us through what makes them better. you have sections on your website like "what makes our rifles so special", but you never actually state what makes them better.

i would update that by removing those claims or by adding some supporting data

oldschool AR
May 16, 2013, 03:26 PM
We are working on the web right now- one of the problems is doing a mobile application, which allows you to see everything.
From your desktop, we have an illustration that points out 19-20 features that we add to our rifles over and above another standard AR. Most of these are desirable cosmetic features, some are operational and mechanical.

A new format catalog is being developed, which will have a sheet per model, with information. This whole thing is a growth and learning process, like any business. I am committed to making a great rifle- and I am listening to what people want, correcting what I need to, and working hard to make things right. We stand behind the work, and will do so for a long time to come.

Sam Cade
May 16, 2013, 03:42 PM
Once more, for emphasis:


What components of this rifle are actually manufactured in house by BRC?


The address that the ATF gives resolves to a residence.
http://www.trulia.com/homes/Texas/Seabrook/sold/22496272-4469-Shady-Lake-Dr-Seabrook-TX-77586

Are these rifles literally built in your garage?

Warp
May 16, 2013, 03:45 PM
We are working on the web right now- one of the problems is doing a mobile application, which allows you to see everything.
From your desktop, we have an illustration that points out 19-20 features that we add to our rifles over and above another standard AR. Most of these are desirable cosmetic features, some are operational and mechanical.

A new format catalog is being developed, which will have a sheet per model, with information. This whole thing is a growth and learning process, like any business. I am committed to making a great rifle- and I am listening to what people want, correcting what I need to, and working hard to make things right. We stand behind the work, and will do so for a long time to come.


Are you referring to the "what makes our rifles so special" illustration with the little stars?

The one that lists:

*Proprietary flash suppressor
*Cryogenic treated barrel
*Resized gas port
*2 piece quad rail
*Polished chamber
*Rail covers
*Polished feed ramps
*Polished bolt
*Detachable carry handle
*A2 rear sight system
*mil-spec buffer tube
*Single point sling connector
*Polished hammer and smooth trigger
*Single point sling connector
*Butstock pad
*Coated buffer spring and mil-spec buffer
*6 position collapsible stock



That is sixteen things, although some technically list more than one, I suppose.

And you really think that list above sets you apart from other manufacturers? REALLY?

You really want us to believe that having a 6 position collapsible stock sets you apart? Or an A2 carry handle? Or a "butstock pad? Rail covers? Okay...moving on:

Is the quad rail free floated?

What is the buffer tube made of?

What size is the gas port?

What coating is on the buffer spring?

What is the trigger pull weight?

What material is the bolt made from?

What weight is the buffer?

taliv
May 16, 2013, 04:19 PM
we have an illustration that points out 19-20 features that we add to our rifles over and above another standard AR. Most of these are desirable cosmetic features, some are operational and mechanical.

please understand when you say "standard" some people believe you are referring to the only "standard" that exists, which is the US military's as developed by colt. (which you haven't demonstrated any superiority to) instead, it seems like you are using the term "standard" to mean a lowest common denominator, low budget AR.

Fishbed77
May 17, 2013, 02:59 AM
Oldschool,
You show this photo on your website:

http://www.battleriflecompany.com/Assets/government%20and%20le%20sales/swat-team.png

And this one:

http://www.battleriflecompany.com/Assets/what%20we%20make/imagescaiqegga.png


Are the carbines in these photos your products?

If not, these need to come off your website immediately, as this is false representation. I occasionally write specifications at my job, and when we find out that vendors are using photos of products or installations in their advertising material that are NOT theirs, we write them out of our specifications immediately. If they can not be honest about what they actually produce or provide, or show others' products as their own, what else are they being dishonest about?


.

aka108
May 17, 2013, 10:41 AM
I never got the AR bug. Seems that anyone who has a grinder and a file is putting one on the market today. Sure there are some excellent ones and a whole bunch of turds. My preference has always fallen to AK's, Arsenals and Saigas in particulare. The reason I've stayed away from AR's is that everytime I've been to the range many AR owners are constantly fiddling with their pieces as so many seem to have reliability problems. The AK guys come and shoot. I have never had a AK bobble a round and that's why I enjoy them.

Ian
May 17, 2013, 10:42 AM
I did have a chance to watch the original NRA Expo video in its entirety, and it was pretty horrific. I certainly understand why BRC decided to hide it from public view (although a bit too late). If I were them (and thank goodness I'm not), I think it would be time to change the company name, a la Vulcan.

Every bit of information I've seen says the guns are massively overpriced junk.

Warp
May 17, 2013, 11:31 AM
I never got the AR bug. Seems that anyone who has a grinder and a file is putting one on the market today. Sure there are some excellent ones and a whole bunch of turds. My preference has always fallen to AK's, Arsenals and Saigas in particulare. The reason I've stayed away from AR's is that everytime I've been to the range many AR owners are constantly fiddling with their pieces as so many seem to have reliability problems. The AK guys come and shoot. I have never had a AK bobble a round and that's why I enjoy them.

I haven't witnessed the reliability problems you speak of at ranges, but that "problem" is very easy to fix:

Start with a decent rifle, use good magazines, use factory brass case ammo, lube. Good to go, no problems with reliability.

I suspect that "AK guys" who report "so many with reliability problems" are exercising a selective perception, possibly combined with a selective memory.

Fishbed77
May 17, 2013, 12:31 PM
The reason I've stayed away from AR's is that everytime I've been to the range many AR owners are constantly fiddling with their pieces as so many seem to have reliability problems. The AK guys come and shoot.

I've seen as many junk AKs as ARs (maybe more).

The bottom line is buy a good rifle from a reputable company or build one with high-quality parts after doing your research. Both rifle designs are inherently rugged and reliable.

Acera
May 17, 2013, 01:22 PM
Saw them at the NRA show, not impressed. Damn shame as they are in the next town over from me.................

(Post #2 nailed it.)

CoRoMo
May 17, 2013, 06:24 PM
The flash suppressor videos are odd. They did a halfway decent job of demonstrating the flash from a non-suppressed muzzle and then with a birdcage. But when it comes to their own design, all you see is a blacked out screen and there's no way to know if you're actually viewing the muzzle of the rifle being fired or if the camera is aimed at the floor. I'd like to see the "Disintegrator" FS tested in the same manner that the other two videos were shot.

Acera
May 17, 2013, 10:37 PM
Locked-n-Loaded, the brand new gun store in Seabrook, TX will be carrying these if anyone wants to check them out firsthand. I think they will actually get guns in there this weekend.

backbencher
May 18, 2013, 06:01 AM
oldschool - impressed that you admitted a mistake. Few manufacturers do. While your mobile site is important, your primary site is the most important. Want to steal someone's thunder? Post your exposed gas tube pic as LearningCurve.html and repeat your admission above. There's nothing wrong w/ selling to the flashy crowd. Just use compatible components, and don't pretend to be a Noveske. Make money while you can, but keep an eye on the ball - the newb's 2nd AR's are going to be of higher quality, and a lot of the startups are going to fall away. Your time to get ahead of the ball is now.

LockedBreech
May 18, 2013, 07:27 AM
Oldschool,
You show this photo on your website:

http://www.battleriflecompany.com/Assets/government%20and%20le%20sales/swat-team.png

And this one:

http://www.battleriflecompany.com/Assets/what%20we%20make/imagescaiqegga.png


Are the carbines in these photos your products?

If not, these need to come off your website immediately, as this is false representation. I occasionally write specifications at my job, and when we find out that vendors are using photos of products or installations in their advertising material that are NOT theirs, we write them out of our specifications immediately. If they can not be honest about what they actually produce or provide, or show others' products as their own, what else are they being dishonest about?


.

I'm quoting this post purely for emphasis and agreement.

When I bought a Daniel Defense AR-15, it was after tons and tons of research. It cost more, but I got an objectively excellent rifle, and a DD rep would have zero trouble telling me exactly why each of their components is of high quality. In details, not generalities.

One of the most pressing reasons other than quality control that I've always disliked Taurus firearms is that they put out advertisements which portray their guns as military/police quality, when I do not believe their stuff meets that standard.

Your stuff seems to share the problems I have with Taurus, only multiplied by ten and set aflame.

The photos quoted, if another manufacturer's product, are perhaps the most egregious offense.

I don't fault start-up companies.

I don't fault recreational-grade, lower-spec ARs.

I don't fault overpricing - I'm a capitalist, if you can sell it and it's safe, charge $8,000, I don't care.

What I do fault is dishonesty.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

shunka
May 18, 2013, 09:11 PM
for the entertainment of THR members, I offer this google image search result:
http://tinyurl.com/bad-dog-no-cookie

yhs
shunka

Sam Cade
May 18, 2013, 10:24 PM
for the entertainment of THR members, I offer this google image search result

I wonder if the copyright holder of that photo knows it is being used for commercial purposes?

ObsceneJesster
May 19, 2013, 05:00 PM
Seriously, this company is a joke. Nobody in their right mind would ever over pay for one of their rifles. They talk about how good their "custom triggers" yet I've seen reviews state that they have more play and grit than most stock triggers.

They then talk about how good their two piece handguard is and it's not even free float nor is it made by a high end reputable manufacturer. One would think a $1500 rifle would at least come with a nice free float quad rail.

Lastly, the owner claims his rifles are not mil-spec but instead "mil-spec PLUS". If mil-spec plus consists of using clamp on gas blocks with loctite on the screws then I guess I'll pass. At Shot Show, none of their rifles had staked castle nuts and they said they used loctite on them instead. I wouldn't exactly call that mil-spec plus either.

In the end, it's just another company trying to sell cheap rifles at a high premium. Their name tries to imitate one of the most reliable companies in the business (BCM) but to bad their quality can't imitate BCM as well. I want to know what person in their right mind would rather buy a rifle from Battle Company than Bravo Company.

CaptMike
May 23, 2013, 03:59 AM
This Thread sorta took my by surprise. I own a BR 308 and Love it. It is a very nice rifle and goes boom on command.. I have it set up for hog hunting. The BRC has some pretty good bonafides too. Vertex Helicopters for one.. You use a BRC rifle if you hog Hunt from their helo. Why? Well, the rifle has to work and if you drop $2500 to shoot hogs from a helo, a broken rifle will ruin your day. So they use BRC rifles..
It also seemed rather unfair questioning how many proprietary BRC parts go into a rifle. How many go into a Ruger, or a S&W? FEW companies if any make all the internals. I may be wrong, but outside of DPMS and Colt (FN if you could by one, but you can't), how many AR companies make their own barrels? So Spec and Assembly is the name of the game. Mine was great, thats all I can say.. Oh, that and the Flash hider works so well I have put them on my .223 rifles too. I would like another for a .308 savage hog hunter.
I don't know why some one would write such a mean spirited review of a rifle they never fired. Internet warriors.. "I read a review the trigger creeps" is not a review. It is hearsay..
I found them to be very good quality rifles, light and reliable. Being local Houston, I know if I have a problem with my rifle I can take them to Chris and he will make it right. Right then and there. Thats worth money.. So far, it hasn't been an issue..

Sam Cade
May 23, 2013, 04:42 AM
It also seemed rather unfair questioning how many proprietary BRC parts go into a rifle.


Eh? Folks have a right to know what they are purchasing. These BRC rifles are seemingly assembled from the exact same off the shelf parts that I can buy. Heck, they are purchased from the same place I shop.

Compare that with Hogan for example:
All components - gas block, gas piston (reversible), plug and bolt carrier group - are machined on premises then anti-corrosion treated, melonite heat treated, hard chrome or silicone nickel plated.

Our proprietary upper and lower receivers as well as our tactical and hunter rails are machined in house from 7075-T6 billet aluminum, bead blasted then hard anodized. NP3™ (Nickel/Teflon coating) and Cerakote finishes are also available. Our close tolerances ensure a firearm with virtually no play between the upper and lower receivers.

Barrel blanks are supplied by Rock Creek Barrels, Inc. and completed to final specification at Hogan Guns.

HOGAN ‘GOLD STANDARD’ Triggers are standard in all our rifles. The crisp break of this drop-in unit provides the shooter with the confidence to produce target after target with similar sub-MOA groups.

For our top of the line furniture and accessories, like butt stocks, grips and rail covers, we have developed long term relationships with leaders in those areas - VLTOR™, MAGPUL™, NORGON™, KNS™, and Falcon Industries’ ERGO GRIP™. Smaller parts like springs, screws and washers are sourced from domestic manufacturers.

Some of our rifles may look familiar to the consumer and that would be because we are the original designer and manufacturer of those parts and products marketed by others. Again, HOGAN Manufacturing/Advanced Device Designs, Inc. controls all aspects of the design and manufacturing of the key components in house, these include upper and lower receivers, rails systems, bolts, bolt carriers, gas piston components and the drop in trigger assemblies as examples.

Not an endorsement of Hogan, but they are upfront about what the consumer is actually purchasing.


I know if I have a problem with my rifle I can take them to Chris and he will make it right. Right then and there.

Since you seem to be a person in the know, would you be taking it to his garage or is there an actual place of business?

Hokkmike
May 23, 2013, 10:25 AM
I never got the AR bug. Seems that anyone who has a grinder and a file is putting one on the market today. Sure there are some excellent ones and a whole bunch of turds. My preference has always fallen to AK's, Arsenals and Saigas in particulare. The reason I've stayed away from AR's is that everytime I've been to the range many AR owners are constantly fiddling with their pieces as so many seem to have reliability problems. The AK guys come and shoot. I have never had a AK bobble a round and that's why I enjoy them.... aka108

Well stated. In a word, AR's are just too finicky.

Fishbed77
May 23, 2013, 10:38 AM
Well stated. In a word, AR's are just too finicky.

Statement FAIL.

ARs are not finicky at all when well put-together of quality components. Which is exactly why this "Battle Rifle Company" is taking so much heat for their shoddily-assembled SHOT Show samples and their chronic inability to accurately represent themselves and the quality of the components used in their products.

Colt, BCM, Daniel Defense, Spikes, and plenty of other companies have no trouble manufacturing ARs that are incredibly rugged and reliable, and aren't "finicky" in the least bit.

Acera
May 23, 2013, 01:19 PM
Hokkmike wrote:
Well stated. In a word, AR's are just too finicky.

Pure internet crap.

You might check out the following well written article:
http://www.defensereview.com/the-big-m4-myth-fouling-caused-by-the-direct-impingement-gas-system-makes-the-m4-unreliable/

Quality guns will perform well. Build junk is always junk whether it is an AR, AK, FAL, etc........

LockedBreech
May 23, 2013, 03:39 PM
I never got the AR bug. Seems that anyone who has a grinder and a file is putting one on the market today. Sure there are some excellent ones and a whole bunch of turds. My preference has always fallen to AK's, Arsenals and Saigas in particulare. The reason I've stayed away from AR's is that everytime I've been to the range many AR owners are constantly fiddling with their pieces as so many seem to have reliability problems. The AK guys come and shoot. I have never had a AK bobble a round and that's why I enjoy them.... aka108

Well stated. In a word, AR's are just too finicky.

A well-made AR will run circles around a middling quality AK. If my Daniel Defense ever bobbles a round I'll be sure to post about it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Robert
May 23, 2013, 06:00 PM
And now that the easily dispelled internet myths are popping up I think we are done here. If BRC would like to address some of the questions members have posed I'll be happy to unlock this but I am not going to do yet another AR vs AK thread.

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