HD arsenal to include PCC?


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9mm+
May 8, 2013, 08:21 AM
My primary go-to HD gun is my Benelli pump with a mounted flashlight and a mix of buck and slugs. I also keep my S&W Model 10 and Springfield XD40 nearby as well, but given the time, I am going to grab the Benelli first. Lately, though, I've been thinking a lot of consolidating calibers to include a good defensive sidearm and rifle combination for use in short-defensive perimeters. I've concluded that I need a good pistol-caliber carbine (PCC) in .40 to complement the XD40. The problem is that there are so few options available, and what is around is very expensive (with some exceptions like the KelTec but that cost is climbing, too).

Yes, I have EBR's in various calibers and I tote those around quite a bit in outdoor shoots. If I really felt myself in a bind, though, I would rather have a single cailber that would serve both sidearm and rifle duties. Logistics is a big consideration to me. As for available models, the Beretta CX4 and KelTec Sub-2000 come to mind, but really there's not much else out there with the exception of a few lower-rate production models from other manufacturers.

With everyone talking about HD loadouts, most of the focus has been on the AR platform. Nothing wrong with that, of course, and I'm a big fan of EBR's, but for toting around in tight quarters (I live in city limits), I would prefer a PCC and sidearm in the same caliber. With the HK MP5 being one of the most successful PCC's ever -- as well as one of the most popular guns ever made -- I'm surprised that the gun manufacturers haven't produced more models over the years. Instead of more PCC's coming out to complement sidearms, the trend is that more 5.56/.223 pistols are being produced to complement the AR rifles. A pistol of this nature seems a bit unwieldy to me, but then again I haven't shot one, so I'm only supposing on how it would handle.

Well, I guess it's off to Gunbroker.com to find a CX4 or Sub-2K in .40S&W. There's slim pickings out there in .40 and what I do find is $$$$$. Oh well, I suppose it's the age we live in now... :(

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LNK
May 8, 2013, 08:40 AM
We don't do SHTF here......! Sorry...

LNK

9mm+
May 8, 2013, 08:44 AM
Right you are! The original intent was HD anyway, so I edited the first post to reflect that. Thanks!

bikerdoc
May 8, 2013, 09:18 AM
Thank you so much for the edit as I was just about to go full blown cranky old man on you. :)

As for PCC, about 5 years ago I picked up a Ruger 9mm Police carbine so it would use the same ammo as my various 9mm pistols.

Then I got a Marlin 357 lever action to go with my 357 revolvers.

They have not replaced the 12 gauge for HD.

I see there place as more of an outside combination when I am checking the fences and dealing with varmints.

jim243
May 8, 2013, 09:18 AM
PCC's are well covered for those that fancy revolvers for a sidearm, with lever actions in 357, 41, 44 and 45, many are available. As you have noted semi-auto PCC's are a little more difficult to find, the most popular being the Kel-Tec, Hi Point and Beretta models.

My personal choice was the Hi-Point 4095 in 40 S&W, but not because I like that caliber in pistols (Sold both of mine). My choice in pistol caliber handguns is the 45 ACP.

Use of a PCC for home defense is a use that I personally do not like. They are large, heavy and less than handy in close quarter spaces of a home, a good pistol will allow you to have more flexibility in tight situations. But that is just my personal opinion.

They are handy however when tramping outdoors, however most find no problem carrying ammo for two calibers when outdoors since the use of a rifle and handgun have two different functions and capabilities when roaming the woods. The effectiveness and range of each will be different a you should chose the most effective weapon for each purpose.

PPC's while fun to shoot are not the end all solution to all situations but are one way to standardize on a single caliber to carry. Just remember that these are SHORT range firearms and not designed for long range jobs.

One reason the AR's are more popular as carbines is the larger mag capacity these guns provide. I am limited to 10 rounds for the Hi-Point 4095, with the Kel-Tec you can use Glock 33 round mags, but only for the 9mm model, what the 40 S&W model will use I do not know.

Good luck on your search.
Jim

Sam1911
May 8, 2013, 09:21 AM
With the HK MP5 being one of the most successful PCC's ever -- as well as one of the most popular guns ever made I wouldn't say that at all. The MP5 was the most popular submachine gun of the 80s-90s, but had very little presence as a semi-auto PPC. Secondly, while it was very popular, it was so because it had a hi-speed/low-drag Seal Team 6 reputation, not because it was a fantastic carbine. In fact, if you polled 100 shooters, it's quite likely that 95+ of them have never even seen one in the flesh, let alone shot it. So that grand reputation is 2nd or 3rd hand hearsay.

You can say it has better ergos than the Uzi which it replaced in most groups using such items back at the end of last century, but all such things have been superseded by the much more flexible and practical AR platform now, for 99% of those same users, as well as everyone else.

Instead of more PCC's coming out to complement sidearms, the trend is that more 5.56/.223 pistols are being produced to complement the AR rifles.No, no. Those aren't being made as pistols to compliment an AR rifle. (You're thinking this is analogous to a Colt SAA in .45 Colt to compliment a lever action rifle in the same cartridge? Totally different.) Those are being made as stand-alone range toys, or as a functional firearm that you can play with while you wait for your Form 1 paperwork to come back so you can put a stock on it. They are NOT, EVER, IN ANY WAY, a practical compliment to a full-sized rifle. No one carries an AR "pistol" as a companion to their M-4 or AR-15!

A pistol of this nature seems a bit unwieldy to me, but then again I haven't shot one, so I'm only supposing on how it would handle.LOL! SEEMS? :) And how.

9mm+
May 8, 2013, 09:40 AM
I wouldn't say that at all. The MP5 was the most popular submachine gun of the 80s-90s, but had very little presence as a semi-auto PPC.

Correct, but I was not distinguishing between civilian/semi-auto only and police/military/SOF, etc. Just the model overall in terms of production quantities and years of service. Sorry for any confusion...should've made that distinction up front.

No, no. Those aren't being made as pistols to compliment an AR rifle. (You're thinking this is analogous to a Colt SAA in .45 Colt to compliment a lever action rifle in the same cartridge? Totally different.) Those are being made as stand-alone range toys, or as a functional firearm that you can play with while you wait for your Form 1 paperwork to come back so you can put a stock on it. They are NOT, EVER, IN ANY WAY, a practical compliment to a full-sized rifle. No one carries an AR "pistol" as a companion to their M-4 or AR-15!

Of course, I agree with you, but while these are range toys to experienced users, there is a growing interest by a lot of well-meaning but ill-informed shooters to have a rifle-caliber pistol as an overgrown "sidearm". From the last gunshow I attended, there was way too much talk of this. I'm not defending that decision as being wise, but just saying that it's happening in several circles. :)

InkEd
May 8, 2013, 09:43 AM
Sig has that new one coming out. Look on their site.

Sam1911
May 8, 2013, 09:45 AM
there is a growing interest by a lot of well-meaning but ill-informed shooters to have a rifle-caliber pistol as an overgrown "sidearm". From the last gunshow I attended, there was way too much talk of this. I'm not defending that decision as being wise, but just saying that it's happening in several circlesHmmmm... Really? Wow. Like a real sidearm? To be carried? As a defensive item?

9mm+
May 8, 2013, 09:46 AM
Use of a PCC for home defense is a use that I personally do not like. They are large, heavy and less than handy in close quarter spaces of a home, a good pistol will allow you to have more flexibility in tight situations. But that is just my personal opinion.

True, but I put my students through high-stress situations to simulate home invasions, etc., and during the drill, their ability to steady their pistols is questionable at best when their adrenaline is running wild. A shoulder-fired weapon is preferred for steadying their aim. I do prefer a shotgun for this, but the PCC would be a great alternative as well.

9mm+
May 8, 2013, 09:53 AM
Hmmmm... Really? Wow. Like a real sidearm? To be carried? As a defensive item?

Most of them carry them as a low-slung pistol from a tactical sling. It looks weird. The gun of choice appears to the KelTec PLR and some of the 7.62 "pistols". They also keep them in bedside cabinets and many of them have said that it was their go-to choice for HD. I'm never one to disparage others for their choice of guns, so I won't pass judgment for their choices, but it's not something that I would adopt. A fun range gun, yes, but not for much else. At least, not for me. :)

9mm+
May 8, 2013, 09:55 AM
Sig has that new one coming out. Look on their site.

Great news, thanks! I love Sigs. The only Sig I own is a P238 for my pocket carry, but I would save up and buy a Sig PCC if they made it.

I just looked at the Sig site, and it looks like their new PCC is called the "MPX". There is only one non-LE/Military variant available, but it appears that they haven't named that model yet or posted any info about it. The ones they have listed are all submachine guns/SBR's for LE/Military. I'll keep checking for when they release the civilian model.

9mm+
May 8, 2013, 09:59 AM
As for PCC, about 5 years ago I picked up a Ruger 9mm Police carbine so it would use the same ammo as my various 9mm pistols.

I had forgotten about that Ruger police carbine and I will see if I can find one in .40S&W. Ruger discountinued production seven years ago, but there might be enough on the secondary market to pick one up.

Sam1911
May 8, 2013, 10:06 AM
True, but I put my students through high-stress situations to simulate home invasions, etc., and during the drill, their ability to steady their pistols is questionable at best when their adrenaline is running wild. A shoulder-fired weapon is preferred for steadying their aim. I do prefer a shotgun for this, but the PCC would be a great alternative as well.This is an area I'm very interested in, as it is a hotly debated topic in my circles. The most prevailing wisdom is that long guns are easier to make hits with than handguns, and so are the hands-down preferred choice for a defensive weapon. "Use your pistol to fight your way to your long gun," and so forth. This seems to be almost unquestioned, by anyone.

Except me. :o

I put on rifle and shotgun stages in our IDPA matches very regularly, and every month we put 30-40 people through our shoot house with rifles, shotguns, and pistols. And I've yet to see corrected times that consistently show better/faster engagement of threats with the long guns at home/self-defense distances than with handguns.

I KNOW I can't do it, but I try and toss out my own experiences because I probably shoot 500 rounds of pistol ammo for each shotgun shell or rifle cartridge. (Mixed targets out to 20 yards, using cover, moving, etc, -- I'll cut my rifle/shotgun times by 1/5 or so switching to a handgun.)

And maneuvering and using cover with a long gun just is not as easy.

But...there's that conventional wisdom chewing on me every time I say so! :)

pockets
May 8, 2013, 10:14 AM
Don't forget the 'Marlin Camp Carbine'. It was made in .45acp and 9x19.
The .45 used 1911 magazines.
The 9mm accepted S&W 59xx magazines...lots of options with those.

Weren't some Kel Tec Sub 2000 carbines produced which used S&W 59xx series magazines?
.

stumpers
May 8, 2013, 10:20 AM
The commonality of ammo for both sidearm and long gun matters less to me than having the most effective long gun I can have. The pistol is primary when I only have a pistol. The pistol is very much secondary when I have a rifle handy.

9mm+
May 8, 2013, 10:31 AM
This is an area I'm very interested in, as it is a hotly debated topic in my circles. The most prevailing wisdom is that long guns are easier to make hits with than handguns, and so are the hands-down preferred choice for a defensive weapon. "Use your pistol to fight your way to your long gun," and so forth. This seems to be almost unquestioned, by anyone.

Except me.

I run rifle and shotgun stages in our IDPA matches very regularly, and every month we put 30-40 people through our shoot house with rifles, shotguns, and pistols. And I've yet to see corrected times that consistently show better/faster engagement of threats with the long guns at home/self-defense distances with the long guns.

I KNOW I can't do it, but I try and toss out my own experiences because I probably shoot 500 rounds of pistol ammo for each shotgun shell or rifle cartridge. (Mixed targets out to 20 yards, using cover, moving, etc, -- I'll cut my rifle/shotgun times by 1/5 or so switching to a handgun.)

And maneuvering and using cover with a long gun just is not as easy.

But...there's that conventional wisdom chewing on me every time I say so!

Interesting comments, Sam, thanks, and something of strong debate in a lot of circles. I agree with your comments. A lot of whether people choose a pistol or rifle (PCC, etc.) or shotgun for HD depends on their comfort level. As for me, if I'm alert and awake, I go for my shotgun first. However in my dead-of-night/half-asleep mode, I reach for my S&W Model 10 (with Federal +P loads). The reason why is that the big hammer, big trigger guard and Hogue grips make it very easy to maneuver with a foggy brain. For the students I teach, they often conclude that a shoulder gun is their best bet after I put them in the high-stress drill. If they're that nervous in the drill, there's no telling what their aim would be if the real thing went down.

For those students that feel that a shotgun is just too much for them to handle (and there's a few of them that admit that openly), a carbine with a 16" barrel is a good option. Shoulder-fired but not too unwieldy like a long gun is in tight quarters. For me, I love the portability and size that a PCC offers with the advantages of higher muzzle pressure and better accuracy.

I'm now on Gunbroker looking at the Ruger Police Carbine, as well as Beretta CX4, in .40S&W. Unfortunately, most of the prices range $800-1000. Ouch!

The commonality of ammo for both sidearm and long gun matters less to me than having the most effective long gun I can have. The pistol is primary when I only have a pistol. The pistol is very much secondary when I have a rifle handy.

I felt the same way until recently when trying to buy ammo for anything. Seems like .40 is more available than other calibers. .22LR? Forget it. But until the gun/ammo climate changes for the better, ammo logistics is top-of-mind for me. I can stockpile .40's for practice/plinking and use both pistol and rifles for training, drills, etc. Maybe when things change for the better, I will go back to diversifying more calibers.

mdauben
May 8, 2013, 10:57 AM
I've been thinking a lot of consolidating calibers to include a good defensive sidearm and rifle combination for use in short-defensive perimeters. I've concluded that I need a good pistol-caliber carbine (PCC) in .40 to complement the XD40.
I can see your line or reasoning and I have given a lot of thought to caliber consolidation myself. While it can simplify purchasing, storage, etc. I think you can reach a stage of simplifcation where it starts to do more harm than good. For "field" work, only needing to deal with the logistics of one set of ammo is very attractive, but in a HD scenario I do see this as a secondary concern. Is it really much more difficult to buy and store 500 rounds of .40 and 500 rounds of 5.56, as opposed to 1000 rounds of .40 alone?

In the case of a PCC, though, I really see them mainly as a back up weapon. Nice to have if/when you are short of rifle ammo, but IMO is definetly a second choice to a rifle caliber carbine or EBR for HD. The EBR has more range, more capacity, and arguably more "stopping power" for want of a better term. Given the choice, I'll pick the EBR every time over the PCC.

9mm+
May 8, 2013, 11:06 AM
I can see your line or reasoning and I have given a lot of thought to caliber consolidation myself. While it can simplify purchasing, storage, etc. I think you can reach a stage of simplifcation where it starts to do more harm than good. For "field" work, only needing to deal with the logistics of one set of ammo is very attractive, but in a HD scenario I do see this as a secondary concern. Is it really much more difficult to buy and store 500 rounds of .40 and 500 rounds of 5.56, as opposed to 1000 rounds of .40 alone?

In the case of a PCC, though, I really see them mainly as a back up weapon. Nice to have if/when you are short of rifle ammo, but IMO is definetly a second choice to a rifle caliber carbine or EBR for HD. The EBR has more range, more capacity, and arguably more "stopping power" for want of a better term. Given the choice, I'll pick the EBR every time over the PCC.

Good feedback, Mike, thanks. The rationale you listed is very sound and perhaps the reason why the Ruger Police Carbine never sold well to the police forces (they used their money to buy more AR's). I have enough rifle caliber ammo to outfit a small army, but I'm being very conservative in using it because the supply is so tight. Whenever I pop into our local Gander Mtn, I see plenty of .40's on the shelf, which is what got my gears in motion about purchasing a PCC in .40 to match with my Springfield XD.

Then again, as my wife often points out, I say a lot of things to justify a new gun purchase, much of which doesn't pass the "BS Test" from my significant other. ;) So I'll admit it...I just want a PCC for my ever-increasing collection. :D

Warp
May 8, 2013, 01:21 PM
The pistol caliber carbine has it's place.

As soon as I can get my wife some training time with rifles (she has only really shot handguns so far), I think we'll be picking up a pistol caliber carbine to supplement her HD handgun. A PCC can be more effective (both in terminal ballistics and ease of use) than a handgun as well as smaller/lighter/easier to shoot (less recoil and noise) than a rifle caliber.

Given any kind of option, if somebody is invading our home I'm still reaching for the 5.56, personally. But that doesn't mean a PCC wouldn't be just right for somebody else.

9mm+
May 8, 2013, 01:29 PM
The pistol caliber carbine has it's place.

As soon as I can get my wife some training time with rifles (she has only really shot handguns so far), I think we'll be picking up a pistol caliber carbine to supplement her HD handgun. A PCC can be more effective (both in terminal ballistics and ease of use) than a handgun as well as smaller/lighter/easier to shoot (less recoil and noise) than a rifle caliber.

Given any kind of option, if somebody is invading our home I'm still reaching for the 5.56, personally. But that doesn't mean a PCC wouldn't be just right for somebody else.

Yep, 100% with you. Now if only I can find one for sale that isn't pushing a grand... :) The price shows that there is more demand for the PCC than the supply can meet. My friend at a local gun shop says that the Beretta CX4's go quickly as soon as they come in.

mdauben
May 8, 2013, 01:42 PM
Whenever I pop into our local Gander Mtn, I see plenty of .40's on the shelf, which is what got my gears in motion about purchasing a PCC in .40 to match with my Springfield XD.
Yes, that's definetly one factor in favor of the PCC, and a good reason to own one! Hopefully this is a relativly short term situation, however, and availability of 5.5645mm, 7.62x39mm, etc. will bounce back. <fingers crossed>

Warp
May 8, 2013, 01:44 PM
Yes, that's definetly one factor in favor of the PCC, and a good reason to own one! Hopefully this is a relativly short term situation, however, and availability of 5.5645mm, 7.62x39mm, etc. will bounce back. <fingers crossed>

Availability will definitely bounce back. And even now it's out there, it's just more expensive for the time being.

Plus if you are prepared you ought to be able to go for a year without buying ammo. And not because you simply stopped training/shooting.

Akita1
May 8, 2013, 01:48 PM
My HDW is a .45 HK USC. It used to be a 12G, but can't sweep the hall with babies at the other end. Yes, it was a tad expensive but must say I practice with it as much as I do my pistols, if not more. It has become my go-to trusted ally, plus I have a halfway landing on my stairway so the upstairs has become quite the defensible ambush position. Also picked up a 20 rnd UMP mag at the gun show and filled it with the trusty SXT 230 grain perp slayer. All I need now are a couple of flash bangs...(jk of course). Also looking for the Cx4 Storm in .40 but the prices are not palatable at the moment. Shot a friend's a few weeks back and love the way it feels.

Warp
May 8, 2013, 01:49 PM
My HDW is a .45 HK USC. It used to be a 12G, but can't sweep the hall with babies at the other end. Yes, it was a tad expensive but must say I practice with it as much as I do my pistols, if not more. It has become my go-to trusted ally, plus I have a halfway landing on my stairway so the upstairs has become quite the defensible ambush position. Also picked up a 20 rnd UMP mag at the gun show and filled it with the trusty SXT 230 grain perp slayer. All I need now are a couple of flash bangs...(jk of course.)

230gr .45 out of a carbine length barrel might just penetrate walls as much as/more than buckshot out of a 12 gauge. So be careful. Those .45 rounds will probably go right through your interior walls like a hot knife through butter, and babies on the other side of the wall would be risk.

baz
May 8, 2013, 01:55 PM
I keep a PCC around for the grandkids to shoot. I think you could include my 1894C in .357 in the same breath. If they -- the grandkids -- were around when I had to do HD or that other thing we don't talk about, the PCC and/or the levergun could end up in one of their hands. I do believe in having enough guns around to put in others' hands if the occasion arises. Which I don't expect to happen. But you never know.

Akita1
May 8, 2013, 01:59 PM
Does anyone have a Kriss?

Akita1
May 8, 2013, 02:01 PM
230gr .45 out of a carbine length barrel might just penetrate walls as much as/more than buckshot out of a 12 gauge. So be careful. Those .45 rounds will probably go right through your interior walls like a hot knife through butter, and babies on the other side of the wall would be risk.
Agreed Warp - should have noted that I had also since modified the HD plan to ensure they are behind me, plus thinking I have a lot more control of single shots with the carbine than a buckshot sweep.

jim243
May 8, 2013, 02:02 PM
True, but I put my students through high-stress situations to simulate home invasions, etc., and during the drill, their ability to steady their pistols is questionable at best

LOL, I don't think anyone will disagree that a "NewBee" to shooting will mess up so I found this funny. I too am an advocate of everyone taking one or two or more IDPA matches, it not only improves your accuracy but reaction times and really helps with developing skills with your handgun. It also teaches the basics of using cover and assessing threats and which targets to shoot first, second and so on.

I too have a tactical shotgun as well as a PPC, AR carbine and a assortment of other rifles, but by far my fastest reaction times and accurate shot placement will be with either my CZ 75 P-01 or my Bersa Thunder 45 Ultra Compact Pro. (both handguns)

To me (will not be the case for everyone) this is just the most practical approach to home defense.

Good Luck and straight shooting.
Jim

As a side note, in one IDPA match, in a shoot house, I got carried away (should have used only 18 rounds), but put 31 shots in 8 bad guys in less than 42 seconds with NO POINTS DOWN (no misses). When you can do that, you do not look for a carbine or shotgun to defend your home.

Warp
May 8, 2013, 02:35 PM
Agreed Warp - should have noted that I had also since modified the HD plan to ensure they are behind me, plus thinking I have a lot more control of single shots with the carbine than a buckshot sweep.

This mostly comes down to your choice of round.

There are absolutely good choices in buckshot out there that don't "sweep" the way the movies portray.

For example, here are two different buckshot loads I patterned out of my shotgun (smoothbore, 18", no choke tube...in other words, totally open) at a typical home defense distance of 21 feet.

When looking at this, make sure you realize that fully half of the hole(s) in paper are from the wad, which can be ignored for purposes of penetration through walls and what not. Pretty darn tight and aimable/controllable, I'd say.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g105/austin3161324/Firearms/6bb46969.jpg

PabloJ
May 8, 2013, 02:40 PM
My primary go-to HD gun is my Benelli pump with a mounted flashlight and a mix of buck and slugs. I also keep my S&W Model 10 and Springfield XD40 nearby as well, but given the time, I am going to grab the Benelli first. Lately, though, I've been thinking a lot of consolidating calibers to include a good defensive sidearm and rifle combination for use in short-defensive perimeters. I've concluded that I need a good pistol-caliber carbine (PCC) in .40 to complement the XD40. The problem is that there are so few options available, and what is around is very expensive (with some exceptions like the KelTec but that cost is climbing, too).

Yes, I have EBR's in various calibers and I tote those around quite a bit in outdoor shoots. If I really felt myself in a bind, though, I would rather have a single cailber that would serve both sidearm and rifle duties. Logistics is a big consideration to me. As for available models, the Beretta CX4 and KelTec Sub-2000 come to mind, but really there's not much else out there with the exception of a few lower-rate production models from other manufacturers.

With everyone talking about HD loadouts, most of the focus has been on the AR platform. Nothing wrong with that, of course, and I'm a big fan of EBR's, but for toting around in tight quarters (I live in city limits), I would prefer a PCC and sidearm in the same caliber. With the HK MP5 being one of the most successful PCC's ever -- as well as one of the most popular guns ever made -- I'm surprised that the gun manufacturers haven't produced more models over the years. Instead of more PCC's coming out to complement sidearms, the trend is that more 5.56/.223 pistols are being produced to complement the AR rifles. A pistol of this nature seems a bit unwieldy to me, but then again I haven't shot one, so I'm only supposing on how it would handle.

Well, I guess it's off to Gunbroker.com to find a CX4 or Sub-2K in .40S&W. There's slim pickings out there in .40 and what I do find is $$$$$. Oh well, I suppose it's the age we live in now... :(
S&W AR carabine in .300 would be hard if not impossible to beat. Found new one in Gucci-flage for just over $1000, but could not buy it because ammo for .300 Whisper and new one that is about 1mm longer is made of unobtainium.:banghead: I did not want expensive alloy/steel club as baseball bats are much less expensive. My go to gun is G20 with Trijicon night sights.

Akita1
May 8, 2013, 02:49 PM
Wow - agreed! Here's the USC at 50' (Winchester 230 grain FMJ, 10 rounds each group):

Warp
May 8, 2013, 02:53 PM
Anything with the Federal Flight Control Wad, or Hornady Versa-tite wad technology (Hornady basically paid Federal for their tech and gave it hteir own name) should be capable of those kinds of groups.

Federal has the most choices that I have seen, marketed as law enforcement or personal defense, they are identical.

Model numbers like :

LE127-00
LE132-00
LE132-1B
PD132-00

Etc.

That's what you want to look for to get those groups.

Akita1
May 8, 2013, 02:58 PM
Much thanks Warp; posted a pic above of how the USC was shooting recently. Wasn't thinking movies, just the holes in deer I've taken with buckshot.

9mm+
May 8, 2013, 04:28 PM
Does anyone have a Kriss?
__________________
Nuns...no sense of humor. - Kurgan

Didn't think about the Kriss, but that's a PCC contender also. That Vector sure is a fugly gun, though, but I'm not looking for a beauty queen in HD. ;)

9mm+
May 8, 2013, 04:31 PM
As a side note, in one IDPA match, in a shoot house, I got carried away (should have used only 18 rounds), but put 31 shots in 8 bad guys in less than 42 seconds with NO POINTS DOWN (no misses). When you can do that, you do not look for a carbine or shotgun to defend your home.

Damn right! Nice shootin', Tex! I consider myself very proficient in a variety of pistols, but I doubt I could match that in an IDPA event.

Warp
May 8, 2013, 04:37 PM
As a side note, in one IDPA match, in a shoot house, I got carried away (should have used only 18 rounds), but put 31 shots in 8 bad guys in less than 42 seconds with NO POINTS DOWN (no misses). When you can do that, you do not look for a carbine or shotgun to defend your home.

That's great. It really is. But it doesn't give those rounds the advantages in effectiveness offered by most shoulder fire weapons.

A rifle firing a rifle round is still going to be more effective at stopping an attacker than a handgun firing a handgun round.

Sam1911
May 8, 2013, 04:42 PM
A rifle firing a rifle round is still going to be more effective at stopping an attacker than a handgun firing a handgun round.Then we get into the angels-dancing-on-pinheads question of how one weights speed of hits vs. effectiveness of delivered payload.

(One being quantifiable, the other much less so.)

If a marginal hit "in time" is infinitely better than a perfect hit "too late" then we're back to the conundrum of whether to chose the speed of a handgun over the stopping power (;) Hey, you said it, not me! LOL.) of a long gun.

Of course that discussion then makes the PCC out to be rather the WORST of both worlds...

Warp
May 8, 2013, 04:45 PM
Then we get into the angels-dancing-on-pinheads question of how one weights speed of hits vs. effectiveness of delivered payload.

(One being quantifiable, the other much less so.)

If a marginal hit "in time" is infinitely better than a perfect hit "too late" then we're back to the conundrum of whether to chose the speed of a handgun over the stopping power (;) Hey, you said it, not me! LOL.) of a long gun.

Of course that discussion then makes the PCC out to be rather the WORST of both worlds...

Who says the handgun is faster (to get on target and then to hit with) than the carbine?

Sam1911
May 8, 2013, 04:48 PM
Well, I do, because for me it is. No matter how many times I run trials and scenarios, I'm far faster with the handgun.

(Not saying it would be for everyone else -- read post 14.)

9mm+
May 8, 2013, 04:53 PM
Then we get into the angels-dancing-on-pinheads question of how one weights speed of hits vs. effectiveness of delivered payload.

(One being quantifiable, the other much less so.)

If a marginal hit "in time" is infinitely better than a perfect hit "too late" then we're back to the conundrum of whether to chose the speed of a handgun over the stopping power ( Hey, you said it, not me! LOL.) of a long gun.

Of course that discussion then makes the PCC out to be rather the WORST of both worlds...

Ruh roh, here we go... ;)

Moving right along :), if the PCC is compact with a 16" barrel, it does offer maneuverability and perhaps speed if the shooter has time to prepare. The higher muzzle velocity gives the PCC much more punch than its handgun equivalent. Its small size (as compared to a full length rifle and shotgun) and shoulder-fired setup are a plus.

Sam1911
May 8, 2013, 04:55 PM
Is a PCC with a 16" barrel a lot more compact than an AR with a 16" barrel? Some are a bit slimmer, but I'm not sure there's enough benefit in that to choose one. I mean, if the velocity boost between handgun and carbine is good, the velocity boost between PCC and 5.56 is probably considerably better.

9mm+
May 8, 2013, 05:05 PM
Is a PCC with a 16" barrel a lot more compact than an AR with a 16" barrel? Some are a bit slimmer, but I'm not sure there's enough benefit in that to choose one. I mean, if the velocity boost between handgun and carbine is good, the velocity boost between PCC and 5.56 is probably considerably better.

True, but if it shot 5.56, then it wouldn't be a PCC, right? ;) Did I mention that I also want a PCC, well, just to add to the collection? :)

I haven't picked up an AR carbine in a long time (my AR's are longer), but I know the Colt M4 is pretty small and maneuverable. The Beretta CX4 feels quite small, too, and points well. And I will admit that just because a gun shoots a pistol caliber doesn't mean that it's small or light. For those that have handled a Tommy Gun, they know how hefty that momma is. :)

So, back to my "ideal" PCC -- small, light, in .40S&W preferably, and sub $800. If I can score a deal on the Beretta, then I'm there. Right now, though, only the KelTec Sub2K fits my requirements. The Ruger Police Carbine would, too, but I can't find one under $800. Still looking...

9mm+
May 8, 2013, 05:16 PM
Although I don't currently own a M4, I have shot it many times in my career and am a big fan. It's a very capable and maneuverable carbine, but then again, you can take that nice little powerhouse and add some beta mags and a bunch of stuff on the rails and make it a porker.

r1derbike
May 8, 2013, 05:26 PM
This is one of the better threads I've read here.

Thanks for other eye-opening possibilities!

Now for the choice; I'd love the CX4 Storm. I have a nearly exact replica in .177 CO2 powered from Umarex, that I'd love to get in a smaller pistol caliber than .45acp, as I already have an XDS. This would fill the gap between my sidearm and AR. A snappy .40 round would be quite tame in the CX4. I don't like high pressure loads in a pistol, but this seems like a match made in heaven.

Man, I love this thread, thanks!

Ed Ames
May 8, 2013, 11:02 PM
The problem with this topic is that these threads don't reveal much except the biases and assumptions of the participants. That's true for a lot of topics of course but it seems to be more true for PCCs than most.

In my case, I'll answer in a pedantic way. Surprise surprise.

An arsenal is a collection of weapons or military equipment stored. In other words, the gun in your hand or holster is not part of your arsenal. The arsenal is what you have in case of need, not what you are using. I would argue that when it comes to home defense, having a firearm loaded and at the ready is a form of use, not storage.

So, does it make sense to have a PCC in your arsenal? Absolutely. It is another gun, and one that can use a common type of ammo. Given the choice between three 5.56 ARs or two 5.56 ARs and a carbine that feeds your most common handgun ammo, the mix with the PCC increases the odds that you will have at least one carbine with ammo. Honestly the only reason for not having them is financial difficulty. If you can't afford them, then you shouldn't have them. Otherwise it's just common sense.

Is it also common sense to use a PCC for HD? Remember, I'm counting having it "at the ready" as use. Only if it's your most effective available option. That is unlikely to be the case though. Most of the time the answer is no.

I have a few PCCs. I have them because they are fun. I have them because in some circumstances they would allow me to tap my relatively plentiful handgun ammo for use in a shoulder-fired (longer range) arm. I also have them because I sometimes operate in space and weight constrained situations and bringing two kinds of ammo, two types of magazine, two different bore snakes, and so on doesn't make sense in those situations. They are in my arsenal.

That doesn't mean I am using them (have them at the ready) right now, or that you should use them when you're at home.

Akita1
May 8, 2013, 11:05 PM
Didn't think about the Kriss, but that's a PCC contender also. That Vector sure is a fugly gun, though, but I'm not looking for a beauty queen in HD. ;)
Yes quite a strange look - a direct result of the recoil displacement structure, but the thing barely moves when you shoot it and sits tight when shouldered. Same round as my USC but that price...

Dirty Bob
May 8, 2013, 11:27 PM
Or you could buy a Mech-Tech. If you have a 1911 or a .40 Glock, you can keep costs down. My understanding is that a 1911 can be used with a 1911-style M-T of any caliber, because the lower frame is the same for all 1911 calibers. It's made .40 S&W and 10mm tempting, but I've resisted.

I have a .45 ACP model, with a dedicated 1911 "lower." I added a full length rail and sights, along with a homemade fixed stock. It's been reliable during the limited testing I've been able to do (limited ammo), and it's a heckuva lot of fun.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=183749&d=1368069657

I see the advantages of the PCC for HD being:

Low report, low muzzle blast (esp. in low-pressure rounds like .45 ACP), less flash. All of these can be good things indoors.

"Friendly" to less-experienced users, due to reasons above, along with modest recoil.

I've read of the overpenetration issues with PCCs, but you can set up bookcases and other "backstops" in likely spots. If I ever use mine in HD, I hope to use it from a fixed location. I'm not a SEAL or a SWAT officer, and I don't ever plan to do house clearing, especially with a long gun.

Perhaps one of the best reasons for a PCC is that they're so much fun!

All my best,
Dirty Bob

9mm+
May 9, 2013, 09:01 AM
The problem with this topic is that these threads don't reveal much except the biases and assumptions of the participants. That's true for a lot of topics of course but it seems to be more true for PCCs than most.

In my case, I'll answer in a pedantic way. Surprise surprise.

An arsenal is a collection of weapons or military equipment stored. In other words, the gun in your hand or holster is not part of your arsenal. The arsenal is what you have in case of need, not what you are using. I would argue that when it comes to home defense, having a firearm loaded and at the ready is a form of use, not storage.

So, does it make sense to have a PCC in your arsenal? Absolutely. It is another gun, and one that can use a common type of ammo. Given the choice between three 5.56 ARs or two 5.56 ARs and a carbine that feeds your most common handgun ammo, the mix with the PCC increases the odds that you will have at least one carbine with ammo. Honestly the only reason for not having them is financial difficulty. If you can't afford them, then you shouldn't have them. Otherwise it's just common sense.

Is it also common sense to use a PCC for HD? Remember, I'm counting having it "at the ready" as use. Only if it's your most effective available option. That is unlikely to be the case though. Most of the time the answer is no.

I have a few PCCs. I have them because they are fun. I have them because in some circumstances they would allow me to tap my relatively plentiful handgun ammo for use in a shoulder-fired (longer range) arm. I also have them because I sometimes operate in space and weight constrained situations and bringing two kinds of ammo, two types of magazine, two different bore snakes, and so on doesn't make sense in those situations. They are in my arsenal.

That doesn't mean I am using them (have them at the ready) right now, or that you should use them when you're at home.
__________________
Don't hide arms, get sidearms!

Pendantic? Indeed. I feel the air getting sucked out of the room.

The great thing about language is that words can have several meanings. I've highlighted the appropriate definition for the context of this discussion.

ar•se•nal [ahr-suh-nl, ahrs-nuhl]

noun
1. a place of storage or a magazine containing arms and military equipment for land or naval service.

2. a government establishment where military equipment or munitions are manufactured.

3. a collection or supply of weapons or munitions.

4. a collection or supply of anything; store: He came to the meeting with an impressive arsenal of new research data.

As for the usefulness of this thread, and others like them, the fact that people are offering their opinions is precisely the point. There is no absolutism here. The readers can then take these various viewpoints, apply their own reason and logic, and ultimately derive their own plan of action that suits their needs and circumstances.

Dirty Bob
May 9, 2013, 09:30 AM
9mm+: You make a lot of good points, and I can't say I disagree. My preferred long gun to meet trouble with is a WWII US-made Enfield in .303 Brit. Plenty of power and reach, good handling, and a 10-round mag that can be reloaded quickly with chargers. I have total confidence in the Enfield and its cartridge.

Unfortunately, I'm the only person in my family that likes to shoot it. For a recoil-shy person like my wife, a 9mm handgun and/or a PCC would be a worthy choice, depending on the situation.

I may choose a PCC indoors, but if I were working outside after a hurricane or other event, I would have the Enfield or a shotgun within easy reach. For me, the PCC is just another tool in the toolbox. Contrary to the many gunzine articles, there is no "ultimate" defensive firearm, IMHO.

Respectfully,
Dirty Bob

9mm+
May 9, 2013, 09:34 AM
9mm+: You make a lot of good points, and I can't say I disagree. My preferred long gun to meet trouble with is a WWII US-made Enfield in .303 Brit. Plenty of power and reach, good handling, and a 10-round mag that can be reloaded quickly with chargers. I have total confidence in the Enfield and its cartridge.

Unfortunately, I'm the only person in my family that likes to shoot it. For a recoil-shy person like my wife, a 9mm handgun and/or a PCC would be a worthy choice, depending on the situation.

I may choose a PCC indoors, but if I were working outside after a hurricane or other event, I would have the Enfield or a shotgun within easy reach. For me, the PCC is just another tool in the toolbox. Contrary to the many gunzine articles, there is no "ultimate" defensive firearm, IMHO.

Respectfully,
Dirty Bob

Amen, Dirty Bob. I especially like your last line ("there is no ultimate defensive arm"). There's a lot of truth in that!

Btw, the PCC I'm looking at now is a Suomi 9mm carbine that a local shop has for a good price. It's heavy but very reliable and the price seems very, very good.

Ed Ames
May 9, 2013, 09:53 AM
9mm+,

Exactly right. You bolded the phrase "supply of weapons or munitions". "Supply" is defined as "a stock of a resource from which a person can be provided with necessary amounts of that resource". So an arsenal by definition does not encompass weapons actively being used. Your arsenal is what you have available to carry, not what you are carrying.

PCCs are something everyone should own (have in their arsenal), but only rarely are they the weapon most people should use (have as their on-hand defensive weapon).

As for the usefulness of these threads, I'm happy to count them as useful if they give the participants new-to-them insight. The problem is that, well, there's a quote that fits: "The human mind treats a new idea the way the body treats a strange protein; it rejects it." -- Medawar. Most people have a position on this subject already.

Warp
May 9, 2013, 09:59 AM
I agree with 9mm+

But this seems to be rather off topic and not truly relevant

Outlaw Man
May 9, 2013, 10:16 AM
I paid for the opportunity to shoot a real MP5 at a range in NW Arkansas several years ago. It was a very smooth shooting gun, even at full-auto. It's definitely a gun you could theoretically write your name with, though I'd run out of ammo long before I got finished with my name.

Since then, I've always thought a suppressed, select fire MP5 would make an excellent home defense weapon. I've just yet to find the $30k in unallocated funds to get one, and I sure would have to think hard about potentially subjecting something like that to police custody if the shooting was questionable.

With a semi-auto version, I see little advantage of a similar weapon over other, more common HD weapons.

Dirty Bob
May 9, 2013, 10:20 AM
9mm+: Weight is the main complaint about many PCCs. A blowback semiauto for a high-pressure or big-bore cartridge will usually have a massive bolt. I believe the Suomi is one of the heavier PCCs. I think the Suomi has a high cool factor, though, and if you can find mags, you'll probably enjoy it. It probably makes 9mm feel like a .22 Short.

BTW: The Mech-Tech is one of the few PCC semiautos that uses a telescoping bolt -- a bolt that wraps around the back of the barrel when in battery. The Uzi is another, IIRC. This gives a shorter overall length. My Mech-Tech -- after addition of a recoil pad -- should be under 30" in length.

All my best,
Dirty Bob

Ed Ames
May 9, 2013, 11:23 AM
I agree with 9mm+

But this seems to be rather off topic and not truly relevant

I agree with 9mm+ as well.

As for off topic and truly relevant, I'm not sure what you mean. The man asked if a HD arsenal should include PCCs. I think the answer is yes. Seems on topic to me. I further stipulated that PCCs could also be useful for HD use in limited circumstances. While not strictly on topic that seems very relevant to the topic.

I also think that's an important distinction. Having vs using I mean. A lot of people bash PCCs because they are not the ideal choice in combat. They come at things from what is to me a baffling perspective, which is that ideal choices are always an option. My world doesn't work out that way, and I doubt yours does either. It's important to have choices, and to make choices based on your specific circumstances, rather than some internet-soldier-jock ideal of what HD should be. You are free to disagree of course.

GrOuNd_ZeRo
May 9, 2013, 02:10 PM
Hi-Point makes a fine PCC for HD use in 9mm, .40S&W and .45ACP.

I got the 995 9mm and shoots well, the only weakness is the magazines (limited capacity and spotty reliabilty in older model mags)

9mm+
November 1, 2013, 11:36 AM
This is the PCC I finally settled on: a modified KelTec Sub 2K. I put the Red Lion forend on with holographic site and a barrel shroud (to keep from inadvertently grabbing the barrel) and the damn thing now shoots like a dream. :) The trigger is still very sloppy (you can see my other post on that) and the construction quality is not high, but with the mods that I've done, it accomplishes what I need it to do. Groupings are tight, reliability is high, mobility and weight are superb. It won't be my only PCC because I'm still enamored with the Suomi M31. The Finnish PCC is a heavy beast, but as Dirty Bob said, it has a high cool factor. :)

hso
November 1, 2013, 06:41 PM
.40 AR upper would put you into the same cal, but on a familiar platform.

BUT

It is difficult to support a pistol caliber carbine since it has none of the merits for range of a 5.56 and none of the merits of 5.56 penetrating building material less than a .40. Yes, I've gone the everything shoots the same caliber using the same mag approach before, but then we ran our own overpenetration tests with common calibers for pistols and carbines and were shocked to see the 55 grain 5.56 having the least penetration of indoor building materials when put up against the 9mm, .40 and .45 pistol/carbine combos.

barnbwt
November 1, 2013, 09:34 PM
The Suomi butt-strokes better than a 40 upper AR (or a Sub2K); could make all the difference :D ;)

Fun aside, there's a good chance that 100yo gun will deliver better groupings than any modern platform. The weight and extremely good barrel (and its attachment) made the M31 one of the most accurate subguns ever (especially for an open-bolt full auto). Unlike an AR, you can also build a Suomi for ~200$ if you have the tools to do so ;). You can also afford to burn through more ammo practicing (if ammo prices ever return to commodity levels), and will be able to practice longer before fatigue sets in. 223 is loud; loud guns don't allow for as long of range sessions (and that's not even getting into the much-debated "too loud for indoor use" issue)

There is, however, an extremely cool new MAC-based design out there that takes the various Suomi mags/coffins/drums
http://www.alliancearmament.com/ampsystemmacaccesories.aspx
Yeah, it's not like you'd ever keep an open-bolt MG around for home defense, but the videos are cool :D. Let's see any modern maker produce drums and hi-cap stick mags that reliable for 50$ and 20$, respectively :cool:

TCB

bigfatdave
November 1, 2013, 10:23 PM
My armory includes two PCC's - a Sub2k (glock 19 mags) in 9mm and a Mech-Tech (1911 officer frame) in .45acp

And those are kept ready to go with mags handy.
So is a 20g Mossberg500 and a couple of M1 Carbines, it doesn't take much effort to have stuff in a grab&go configuration, if I ever need a long gun for HD I'll either pick something appropriate or make whatever I do pick work, I don't think the exact details of the hardware are more important than mindset & skillset.
(mindset - skillset - toolset --- in that order! Wise words I shamelessly stole form someone else)

Stock what you like, shoot it enough that you can operate it well under stress and understand what it (and you!) is and isn't capable of.
(rule of thumb, you should be able to run a gun at least as well as you do your old car, knowing where all the controls are without looking, knowing if they worked by feel, etc)

9mm+
November 2, 2013, 10:01 AM
will be able to practice longer before fatigue sets in. 223 is loud; loud guns don't allow for as long of range sessions (and that's not even getting into the much-debated "too loud for indoor use" issue)

I live in city limits and the closest/most-convenience range *won't* allow .223 rounds at all. Pistol caliber only (and rimfire). My EBR's stay at home and don't get much use unless I get the opportunity for some outdoor shooting at my friend's camp. There is a Wake County public range where all calibers are allowed, but it's a pain to use. When I do go there, I always get paired near another .223 shooter and find the noise to be very annoying. It's one thing when I'm pulling the trigger, but it's another when I don't know it's coming.

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