Retail insider's info on the current ammo shortage


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waffentomas
May 8, 2013, 02:04 PM
I work for a large retailer of outdoor sporting goods... think Cabelas, Wholesale, Bass Pro, Gander, etc. Not sure what my employer would feel about me discussing this, so I need to protect myself.

I manage the dept. where ammo, firearms, etc are sold.

As most of us know, the ammo shortage is pretty bad.

Back in Nov when Obama was re-elected, we had a pretty good run on AR platforms, no shocker there. But after Newtown, and the gun bills immanent arrival, things went nuts.

We went for about a month with no ARs coming in at all. Customers were waiting at the doors for us to open, run to the back, and buy as many as we would allow. We eventually scaled that back to two, then one per customer, now it's five.

Ammo was plentiful, as were reloading components.

Once the ARs dried up, people came in and bought whatever we had. Minis, CETME, Springfields, HK, AK, SKS whatever. Once the Semi platforms dried up, the .22lr semis left the building in droves with the 10/22 takedown being the most highly prized. Handguns were being bought by people who had never owned a gun before, and by people who had plenty of guns but were just buying to buy.

Buy mid January, ammo was was running short, and shipments couldn't catch up. Then the news hit about DHS and their ammo buy...reloading items disappeared along with the remaining ammo.

Around the end of Feb., the guns sales slowed down significantly, and by March were back to normal. But the ammo was gone.

Since then, here's what's happening at my store and in my company:

We receive 2-4 average sized shipments of ammo a week. We have only recently received much product USA made. Some Federal and WW 5.56 comes in but it's mostly PMC or Russian. Our supply of 5.56/.223 has lasted about a week without selling out, mainly due to rationing. Now, customers wait at the door for ammo, not ARs. We know guys buy their daily limit, go get coffee, and come back. We see them on their cell phones telling their buddies what we have. No judgment, it's just the way it is right now. 7.62x39 has been steady, but we still run out before more comes in.

Most of the ammo we get is made out of country, Korea, Israel, Russia, etc. No ammo runs there, so they ship to the U.S. We have gotten very large shipments of ammo about 2x a month, but cannot keep it on the shelves long enough to get a resupply. It's gone too fast. All calibers of handgun ammo is gone in hours. We have also run out of .30-30, .45 LC, and 10mm, even .22-250 and .270, 7mm Mag have had problems.

Handgun ammo doesn't come in ever in enough quantity to last more than a few hours,, unless it's .327 mag. 9mm is the most highly sought, and we have had altercations over the last remaining boxes of that and .22lr.

Customers buy handguns all the time and leave with no ammo.

.22 lr is still the toughest to get, and keep. It's gone in an hour. CCI is the most in demand because there is a perception, true or not, that it cycles the .22 semis the best.

We do not see the shortage abating soon. We do have plenty of ARs, and magazines. Handguns are still selling, but we just don't have the selection we usually do. SW Bodyguards are a hot item still.

Reloading components are tougher yet. We get primers in, maybe, 1 or 2 times a week at most, and only a couple dozen boxes at most. Gone in an hour unless it's shotgun primers. Powder is just as bad. We mostly get the Hodgdon powders and affiliates in like IMR and WW. I haven't seen any Alliant in two months, and very little Accurate/Ramshot, though some. We get in 40-100 lbs, and it's gone in a couple of days depending on what we get. 50BMG doesn't move...4064 and Varget are the most highly prized in my experience. We had 4 lbs of Varget show up a few weeks ago, and that's all I have seen in three months. It's a lot like ammo, reloaders are buying whatever we have and working up loads again as their favorite powders are non-existent.

It's better right now just to buy ammo, and not start reloading, as the components are too hard to find (for a decent price). We get very little .308 bullets or .224 bullets. These seem to be the toughest reloading item to find. If you are lucky enough to find a couple bricks of CCI Small rifle primers and get 4 pounds of 3031, you are still stuck without bullets. If you are lucky you find a 500 ct. box of Sierra 77gr .224 bullets, but if you don't have a 1 in 7 or 8 twist, they'll tumble. Even so, you have enough powder for about 1200 rounds, and only 500 bullets, it's frustrating.

The most amazing thing is that customers STILL come in and look astonished when we tell them we have no primers or .22lr or 9mm. Where have these people been?

We don't gouge, either. Prices have gone up. We used to sell a 20rd box of .223 for 6 bucks, now, our COST is over 7 bucks for the cheap stuff.

If employees want stuff, they get it first, but they have to be working to get it, we don't stash a bunch in the back just for them. If you are working when it comes in, grab your limited allotment, and that's it.

I hope this helps some folks understand. I'll answer questions too.

thanks.

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il.bill
May 8, 2013, 02:22 PM
Thank you for sharing. I appreciated how you simply reported your own experience, not indulging in wild speculations.

It is often nice to get a new or different perspective on things.

Midwest
May 8, 2013, 02:24 PM
Thanks for the post.

PabloJ
May 8, 2013, 02:46 PM
Thanks for posting. Most of us already know and acknowledge that shortages are caused by paranoid gun owners with form of ocd called obsessive hoarding.

McBuck
May 8, 2013, 03:03 PM
that hoarding ocd kind of steams ya, but I get what he is saying....it is what it is....I live in a semi rural area, and it seems that there is plenty ammo of most calibers here, but on another board I spend a lot of time on, there are a lot of members in the Atlanta area, and they report the panic buying every day...but up here in the highlands, it seems to be almost back to normal...the exception being 22lr, 9mm, and .223...most everything else seems to be pretty well stocked.

351 WINCHESTER
May 8, 2013, 03:06 PM
All of my lgs ammo in .223, 7.62x39 and 9mm were either PMC of Tula. No .22 at all.

Queen_of_Thunder
May 8, 2013, 03:16 PM
Just a few numbers. One club I belong to has around 2200 dues paying members and is open to the public too. If 90% of the members shot just one box of 9mm a month you would need 220 cases of 500 to meet that need. If you add in the public its safe to say the need for 9mm doubles. Thats 440 cases per month so this small group of people could shoot 1 box of 9mm per month. When you consider the number of shooters in town, the increasing numbers seeking CHL and specialized training there is simply not enough ammo coming into town to meet normal consumption rates let alone increased purchases driven by outside forces.

As far as problems the OP has experienced we have had only one problem due to a mis understanding and that was back in Febuary. I have to say Academy has really handled this mess quite well considering the possibilities of trouble with so many people seeking something thats in short supply. All of the lanes are opened and they have everyone in and out with their purchase in just a few minutes without problems.

Akita1
May 8, 2013, 03:18 PM
Great post - thanks waffentomas

Hondodawg
May 8, 2013, 03:37 PM
Great post. And your pretty much spot on. I'm a buyer on the side for a small LGS in our family business. We've ran into shipments from direct vendors being allocated so say I bought 100lbs of H4350 I only received 20lbs. Along with ammo being stolen during shipments. I have given up on 22LR in the USA and hoping the Foreign 22 ammo I ordered shows up this late summer and fall. 9 pallets!

Potatohead
May 8, 2013, 07:02 PM
hey thx for the post...also, should we not be in semi panic mode, with these nutty laws being made? Especially us who just started out with nothing

Oklacoyotekiller
May 8, 2013, 07:42 PM
So where is all the american made ammo going? All i have seen lately other than a few boxes of wwb is foreign ammo.

JVaughn
May 8, 2013, 07:49 PM
Some stuff around here has more or less normalized like:

38 special
40 auto
45 auto

Some is there, at 15% - 30% over the former price

.223
.308
.357

Some is still completely unavailable anywhere in the area

22LR
30-30
9mm

Shanghai McCoy
May 8, 2013, 08:13 PM
Today I was at the west side wallywerld in Lawrence, Ks., and there were about ten boxes of 45 acp on the shelf. I think it was PVC or PVU...?
Not a brand that I recognize but I was nice to see something there for a change.

12many
May 8, 2013, 08:20 PM
GREAT POST. Thanks.

There is ammo out there so I think it is a price issue now, at least online. Maybe excluding 22 LR. For .223 shells, AMMOMAN, SGAMMO and TARGETSPORTSUSA all have ammo in stock. Prices are still high, but getting better. I check these very day just for the sake of it. Prices are dropping and there is more stock now than ever in the last month.

I am surprised how cheap 12 gauge shells can be.

61Woody
May 8, 2013, 09:11 PM
Great informative post! One way I think could help put ammo on the shelf is put it out at a different time whenever a shipment comes in. At least the full time scavengers that sell for profit on the web would be competing with the working class folks that can't be there at 9:00 am every morning.

CDR_Glock
May 8, 2013, 09:14 PM
I stopped looking in stores. I just buy online. It's costly but still cheaper than driving around town wasting gas, too.

There are more people who are new gun owners and that adds to demand. Luckily, I did most of my acquisition before elections. I don't shoot as much, or as often. It is important to still be competent and confident of one's ability to hit what they intend.

SilentScream
May 8, 2013, 09:21 PM
Yep sounds like my days back at the Sportsman's Warehouse back in Reno. When Obama part 1 happened, same situation, all the ammo you wanted as long as it was 45GAP or 356TSW. Same thing for Primers; as many #209's as the day is long. very little powder, very few component bullets, etc. My LGS here in Columbus has pretty much all the popular calibers however th price leave something to be desired.

berettaprofessor
May 8, 2013, 09:50 PM
Today I was at the west side wallywerld in Lawrence, Ks., and there were about ten boxes of 45 acp on the shelf


:what:....dashes out on road trip to Lawrence......

I should have thought of that sooner....Lawrence is filled with anti-s and socialists; probably has plenty of ammo resting on the shelves.:banghead:

exbrit49
May 8, 2013, 10:46 PM
Stopped by the local Wal-Mart today and while there I walked back to the sporting goods dept. and looked at the Ammo case. Not surprised to see empty shelves, the only cartridge in stock was some 7mm. Plenty of shotgun shells but that was about it. ( I should note that about the only ammo I buy is the odd brick of .22LR). I Picked up some cleaning brushes I needed and got in to conversation with the clerk. We spoke of the empty shelves and he told me that there are a group of about 20 individuals that just hang around the store and clean out the stocks as soon as it gets put on the shelf. She said the bad thing is that despite the rationing to three boxes, as soon as the ammo comes in they call their family members andd friends to come and buy ammo for them. She said she has heard conversations among the group of how many boxes they have stashed away.
Makes me glad I am an avid re-loader. I am still shooting at my normal rate for 200 to 300 rounds a week of larger caliber handgun ammo.
I have had my .22 pistols out a few times but not as much as I would like.
but I don't think the current empty Shelf Syndrome is going away soon. THe hoarders are still in the feeding frenzy and it looks like it will continue until they run out of cash or storage space.
Since I can load 9mm and 38Spl for under $7.00 a box I will just sit back and watch the frenzy. I am at the range a lot and I am not sure how it is in another regions, but around here, people are not shooting.
I followed a guy on the range and he shot off two magazines of 9mm, about 20 rounds and was finished! He got bug eyed when he saw I was setting out several boxes of 9mm, 38SP, 45 ACP and 45 Colt. He actually said "Are you going to shoot all that?" I think he was rather surprised at my response, which was 'YES" My guns are for shooting not looking at! Seems the young man has lots of ammo but wont shoot it. I can understand the feeling but considering he had driven a 25 mile round trip to shoot off just those few rounds, when he had plenty more? Its beyond me.
ALl we need is these hoarders t oquit for a couple of weeks and the situation would improve drastically. AS it is right now, I don't expect to see much change over the next 6 months.
I am very lucky, in that my LGS has kept me well supplied with components through this tough time, I guess it goes to prove a good relationship with your LGS pays off. Last week he called and said I have your Unique in and your CCI primers.
Each to his own I guess.

southoftheboarder
May 8, 2013, 10:58 PM
Thanks for the info on the ammo shortage. Hopefully this shortage will end soon. I'm on the market for a newer pistol but not sure what cal. I should buy. I have an old High Standard Supermatic Trophy 22LR but want something that I can carry concealed.

roadcoder
May 8, 2013, 11:33 PM
T Slothrop? Surely someone who is a fan of Mr. Pynchon's glorious novel appreciates the ironic use of "ghetto" as an adjective.

r1derbike
May 8, 2013, 11:55 PM
Found .45acp ball @ Wally-World, 6 boxes. Finally found some PMC .38 special ball online, and ordered a heap of that for my wife. Still looking for SD ammo for her. She wants Hornady critical defense. Plenty of .223/5.56. Bought over a year ago, happy about that. Same for my .45 carry ammo. Plenty of that.

Sitting pretty well except for wife's .38 sp. SD.

doc540
May 9, 2013, 12:05 AM
"It's better right now just to buy ammo, and not start reloading, as the components are too hard to find (for a decent price). We get very little .308 bullets or .224 bullets. These seem to be the toughest reloading item to find. If you are lucky enough to find a couple bricks of CCI Small rifle primers and get 4 pounds of 3031, you are still stuck without bullets. If you are lucky you find a 500 ct. box of Sierra 77gr .224 bullets, but if you don't have a 1 in 7 or 8 twist, they'll tumble. Even so, you have enough powder for about 1200 rounds, and only 500 bullets, it's frustrating..

This might be the case in your store, but I haven't found it to apply to resources on the net or my LGS.

Powder, primers, and bullets can be bought more now than three months ago.

Sign up for email notification from multiple sources and be ready to buy when an email hits.

Hope this helps.

Midwest
May 9, 2013, 07:35 AM
Yesterday I went to Meijers in Florence KY. No ammo except shotgun ammo. Also, as usual there was no salesperson in the sporting goods department. Meijers has been sold out of handgun and rifle ammo since December 2012.


Went to Walmart (up the road) also in Florence, no handgun ammo. The salesman said they have some shotgun and some rifle ammo (I didn't ask what kind of rifle ammo). There was a person after me who asked about .22 and the salesman said he didn't have any.

So I asked the salesman how many people usually wait in line (before the truck is scheduled to be there).. He said 20.

I asked him when does the line start? He said sometimes 2PM or later for the 4 pm truck.

I asked how have the deliveries been? He said there has there been more ammo on the truck.

Then he added that instead of the ammo staying in the store shelves for 5 minutes (after unloading the truck)...it sometimes lasts as long as 15 minutes on the shelves.....

I said thanks and then I left empty handed. I didn't bother going to the LGS.

waffentomas
May 9, 2013, 09:03 AM
John:

It's not my call on letting employees have first crack, its the company's and the store manager's. However, it's one of those things that is inevitable in retail.

I have only seen ammo sell out one time to the staff, as we had a small order, about a dozen, of .22lr in ammo cans come in, and it never saw the floor.

Also, to a previous comment, we don't put out all the ammo in the a.m., that's just when people are willing to wait at the door. We often put ammo out around lunch time, and one of my favorite times, we will put some out about 2 hours before we close.

NoKY guy
May 9, 2013, 09:04 AM
Midwest - I live in the Florence area also and have been to Wal-Mart at the time the truck was arriving by coincendence and I have first hand seen the guys that stand there in line. The first ones in line buy and then take it out to their vehicle and then come back in and buy more. The night I was there they sold the 500 rd. Tula 223 ( I didn't get any of that as I wasn't there purposely to buy ammo) and when I got home I checked armslist and they had them up there for double the price they paid.

trapper1
May 9, 2013, 09:33 AM
I recently heard a co-worker say that a nearby Gander Mtn was going to put a policy in place that they have ammo set aside, to be sold with gun purchases only. I know of 2 lgs that have reserved a portion of their ammo for the same reason. I think this is a good idea. Anyone else hear or know of this policy being used?

mdauben
May 9, 2013, 10:10 AM
I recently heard a co-worker say that a nearby Gander Mtn was going to put a policy in place that they have ammo set aside, to be sold with gun purchases only. I know of 2 lgs that have reserved a portion of their ammo for the same reason. I think this is a good idea. Anyone else hear or know of this policy being used?
I've heard of a number of LGS that would only sell ammo with the purchase of a gun, or sometimes for use on their ranges. It just makes good buisness sense. Most people are not going to buy a gun, or pay for range time, if there is no ammo for them.

x_wrench
May 9, 2013, 10:17 AM
i guess what amazes me is how long the "panic" has been going on. how much ammo, and reloading components can we store anyway? when your house starts sinking 2" a year, wouldn't you think you would get the picture?! 800,000 rounds of ammo / components is just a tad overkill! if civil war II actually starts, the chances are none of us will get to shoot more than a few hundred rounds before we are killed. and the chance of "our side" getting the remained of our stash are small. it has been made very clear to Washington politicians that the majority of us do not want any new gun control. i know that will not stop the anti's from trying. but i really doubt they will find enough support to make anything happen. at some point you have to look at your supply, and say enough is enough. i must say i will be happy when the next pro gun president comes along. guns and ammo will be spilling onto gunbroker at a fantastic rate, and at great discounts. much of it will still be unused and new in the box. those will be happy days. i have a certain amount of ammo and components on hand. it has not really changed much since Regan was in office. i am not a panic buyer. the only thing that has dropped is my supply of 22lr ammo. i will NOT pay $70.00 for 500 rounds of it. i would chuck the guns in the trash first. the sad part is my kids suffer because we can not shoot like we would like to. i can find enough reloading stuff to keep me busy, even if i have to work up new loads to do it. i would like to be able to walk into a store and pick up a pound of what ever powder i would like again sometime soon. so far, the only thing i have had to pay thru the nose on was small pistol primers. and i will not do that again either. i will just stop shooting them until i find what i need at a decent price. if i have to do that with all of it, i will. there are other hobbies out there. i enjoy this one, but i will not let it ruin my finances to keep it up.

Midwest
May 9, 2013, 10:36 AM
Midwest - I live in the Florence area also and have been to Wal-Mart at the time the truck was arriving by coincendence and I have first hand seen the guys that stand there in line. The first ones in line buy and then take it out to their vehicle and then come back in and buy more. The night I was there they sold the 500 rd. Tula 223 ( I didn't get any of that as I wasn't there purposely to buy ammo) and when I got home I checked armslist and they had them up there for double the price they paid.

I see this is your first post here, welcome to THR.

Another place to try Quick-Cash Firearms (that PAWN STORE) on 167 Lloyd Ave (off of Turfway). I bought a box of .45 acp there a few months back and they charged $32 (used to be $22 something). But I have not stepped foot in the door since then, I hate to see what their prices are now...if they have any....

I don't know what is going on with Meijer or when their truck gets in, or if they get any ammo, or if the employees are taking it or if they have someone just buy it out when it comes in. I never see any sales person in the Sporting Goods section. If you go to Meijer and see the sales people back there in the Sporting Goods section...find out when the truck gets in. Meijer's prices for .45acp is $24...but there is no ammo in the glass cabinet...

Maybe I'll take another ride over to Walmart around 4:00 PM tomorrow or so and see if I can buy anything...

Kristensdaddy
May 9, 2013, 10:43 AM
Maybe the large retailers could get a handle on the scalpers by marking the boxes they sell.

Just rubber stamp the box with the current date and the Walmart logo. That way, buyers on the internet will at least know they are buying from a scalper. Maybe they will think twice.

Pretty simple solution.

Certaindeaf
May 9, 2013, 12:31 PM
The funny thing is he probably only shoots a mosin nugent and scrap/milsurp ammo.

12many
May 9, 2013, 12:34 PM
For the folks here who spend lots of time at the range or perhaps don't get out much, (maybe you don't have teen kids) getto has become slang for something a person does not like or is common, or which the person does not prefer or is unwilling to have or use. Similar to how the word phat or fat is slang for something good. It does not have as much to do with neighborhoods or economics of the person. This is how I understood it to be used. Of course, it can also mean a bad neighborhood depending on context. I don't think they shoot a bunch of 22 LR in the bad heighborhoods, but I don't live or work in a getto so I don't really know. Certainly these are popular calibers outside of the getto, which helps in understanding his meaning when picking from the possible usage options.

KsThumper
May 9, 2013, 12:39 PM
Talked with a manager at the local Cabela's yesterday- take away was:
__________________

1) Obama.2 and AWB talk caused a run on EBR's. Same people are now coming back to resell them. They are wanting the $1000 price they paid for a $700 EBR and get upset when offered $500 for a 'used' gun.

2) Federal and Winchester factory reps say they are running 3-shifts 24/7/365.

2a) Federal 'was' getting ammo boxed Federal but mfg'd in Israel. Now back to USA production.

2b) Winchester-Olin plant in Illinois, down 3-months for modernization/automation, is now running. Plant in Mississippi at full capacity.

3) CCI at full capacity but scarce because of brand popularity.

4) All Lake City 5.56 is going to Military.

5) New DHS buy is a proposal. No notable increase in actual deliveries.

6) Basic reason for .22 shortage is people switching to .22 because of non-availability of other calibers.

7) Was an initial run by LGS's and GS re-seller's but now strict purchase limits even for [off-the-clock] employees.

8) Hoarders are beginning to having less effect on availability.

9) Do not know in advance what will be received. Best to order online and have shipped to local store.

10) .45/.40/.357 supply increasing - 9mm low - .380 and .22 still scarce
______________

Bottom line: Expect ammo supplies to improve in the next 3-months and back to near normal by year end. 10% price increase is the new norm.

Best advise is to buy extra from time-to-time in advance of next shortage.

Trent
May 9, 2013, 12:50 PM
Great post, to the OP.

I'm an admin on a local firearms and ammo facebook group, a few hundred locals barter and sell firearms and related gear on the group.

I have recently seen quite a lot of the "panic selloffs" happening, with heated exchanges of "well I PAID XXX for it".

A lot of buyer's remorse hitting people right now.

I plan on keeping an eye on it, maybe snap up a deal here or there later this summer when people get desperate to pay property taxes, or catch up on other bills.

Yeah, I'm a vulture circling in the winds. But, I've always been an opportunistic person. :)

rdhood
May 9, 2013, 01:40 PM
So basically what the OP is saying is that the same group of people continue to purchase ALL the ammo and ... either hoard it or sell it at profit.

Hate to say it, but here are a LOT of gun people that just plain suck.

al123
May 9, 2013, 02:19 PM
I was recently at the LGS and range. Previously their firearms inventory was nearly stripped bare. Now their displays are full again. Handguns seem in short supply still - they didn't have nearly as many.

They use to have 22lr for at least range use. They were completely out this time. However, centerfire handgun calibers seem to be more available, but at (much) higher prices.

It would interesting to see when prices will drop and availability increase for 22lr. Being just a casual shooter, I had no idea about past panic-buying, hoarding, and re-selling. Because of this, I haven't bought any 22lr in months.

GoPadge
May 9, 2013, 03:27 PM
Locally, (N.E. Kansas) I'm finding more .380 than anything else. I've picked up over 300 rounds in the past month in .380 and had to leave another 300 rounds on the shelves.

The only other handgun ammo I've seen was 300 rounds of .22LR truncated cone.

Shanghai McCoy
May 9, 2013, 04:59 PM
:what:....dashes out on road trip to Lawrence......

I should have thought of that sooner....Lawrence is filled with anti-s and socialists; probably has plenty of ammo resting on the shelves.:banghead:
Hope you got there in time...:)
I didn't buy any because I have plenty and don't want to add to the problem.

Dain Bramage
May 9, 2013, 05:21 PM
The only thing I heard from the OP was "you should buy a .327 magnum".

GrOuNd_ZeRo
May 9, 2013, 05:54 PM
This ammo shortage is killing me, I don't have much money and even less time being lower enlisted in the US Army.

The only ammo I have in somewhat abundance is 7.62x54R and .22LR I got gouged on (wont make that mistake again).

JohnBiltz
May 9, 2013, 06:34 PM
The resellers are not the root issue. If people were not willing to buy it all they would stop buying and selling it. That means that it has no impact on supply, just price.

mdauben
May 9, 2013, 06:40 PM
The resellers are not the root issue. If people were not willing to buy it all they would stop buying and selling it. That means that it has no impact on supply, just price.
I have to agree. People are still buying bricks of .22LR ammo for $80-90 or more on GB. Until that sort of stupidity stops, the "shortage" won't end. :fire:

Shuler13
May 9, 2013, 06:42 PM
Hate to say it, but here are a LOT of gun people that just plain suck.

It's been pointed out to me that the people buying aren't necessarily gun people. Just people that have found a way to exploit a shortage to make a buck off desperate gun people.

orionengnr
May 9, 2013, 08:29 PM
Please go back and re-read post #42...

Shuler13
May 9, 2013, 08:52 PM
Please go back and come up with a post that doesn't come across so rude. I read it and I wasn't responding to it.

Killian
May 9, 2013, 08:53 PM
The "hoarder" is a myth. How can you have a hoarder operate when all he is entitled to buy is 3 boxes at a time? You can't buy the entire shipment that comes to a store by purchasing 3 boxes. The truth is that more people are buying ammo. Now--it is a fact--that when Joe Schmoe customer walks up to the counter and is given his option to buy 3 boxes, he buys them. Previously he might have only bought 1 box to go to the range, but now he never knows when he'll see it again so he buys 3. There aren't any hoarders in operation because they can't get to the ammo any better than any one else right now. What's going on is that everyone is buying ammunition whenever they see it. That's it. No need to loose your faith in humanity just because a your neighbor has decided he wants his 3 boxes.

justice06rr
May 9, 2013, 11:46 PM
Thanks for the inside info.

I've seen ammo trickle in very small amounts in my area. And as you said, you have to be there at store opening to get it. Many times I get there and its all gone.

Probably a bad time to start reloading too. I was looking into that, but I will probably buy equipement instead of powders/primers/bullets.

justice06rr
May 9, 2013, 11:50 PM
The "hoarder" is a myth. How can you have a hoarder operate when all he is entitled to buy is 3 boxes at a time? You can't buy the entire shipment that comes to a store by purchasing 3 boxes. The truth is that more people are buying ammo. Now--it is a fact--that when Joe Schmoe customer walks up to the counter and is given his option to buy 3 boxes, he buys them. Previously he might have only bought 1 box to go to the range, but now he never knows when he'll see it again so he buys 3. There aren't any hoarders in operation because they can't get to the ammo any better than any one else right now. What's going on is that everyone is buying ammunition whenever they see it. That's it. No need to loose your faith in humanity just because a your neighbor has decided he wants his 3 boxes.

Not a myth.

A hoarder is someone who has amassed a very large quantity of an item (in this case ammo), not someone who is just now buying ammo. You can't be a hoarder if you don't already have a large stockpile. Yes I've personally met people like this who have upwards of 5k rounds of a single caliber. I sold a couple of bricks of 22lr to a guy last month who already had 7k+ rounds of 22lr, while I was selling him ammo that I personally didn't need because I don't hoard.
I mean how much do you really need? That is a touchy question for sure...

They hoard it and don't shoot it. They buy more than what the average person does. More likely saving it for a "rainy day" or for shortages like this.

No offense to anyone if they're a hoarder. If you are, then good for you. But it is NOT a myth.

Ed Ames
May 10, 2013, 12:09 AM
The idea that hoarders are causing the current supply chain/retail availability problem is a myth.

The idea that having "upwards of 5k rounds of a single caliber" constitutes hoarding is simply an error.

The word "hoarding" is loaded/has negative connotations, especially in Marxian class warfare. The choice to use that word to describe accumulations of resources held by others at a time when one would like such resources is revealing.

shafter
May 10, 2013, 09:21 AM
I should have thought of that sooner....Lawrence is filled with anti-s and socialists; probably has plenty of ammo resting on the shelves.

That's kinda true. I live in a state that isn't known for being gun friendly at all and yet throughout most of the shortage I've been able to find 22lr, powder, primers, etc for pretty reasonable prices. Never more than $28 for a brick of CCI and I've seen $223 for $10/20. Not great but not terrible either.

McBuck
May 10, 2013, 10:09 AM
ames said...."The idea that hoarders are causing the current supply chain/retail availability problem is a myth.

The idea that having "upwards of 5k rounds of a single caliber" constitutes hoarding is simply an error.

The word "hoarding" is loaded/has negative connotations, especially in Marxian class warfare. The choice to use that word to describe accumulations of resources held by others at a time when one would like such resources is revealing."


the definition of the word "hoarder" could be all about geograqphy too. when I queried my LGS owner about who was buying up all of the 22LR, his reply was basic and core; the buyers of the 22LR stocks are people who own a 22 rifle that was passed down to them from their daddy, and has not been shot in 10 years and the stocks (that 3 box of 525 ct) purchased by them will probably stay in a shot box/safe/gun cabinet for the next 10 years.

Ed Ames
May 10, 2013, 11:30 AM
It could be about geography, but I'm not sure what the geography would need to be to have three boxes of .22lr constitute a hoard. That's enough to take a couple kids out for a day of shooting.

It's like....

Well, many people recommend people keep three days worth of potable water on hand in case of emergency. Would you say that people following that advice are hoarding water?

I suspect the answer is that many would, if they were thirsty. There is a long history of people who failed to plan accusing those who did plan of hoarding, with such accusations usually serving as a prelude to theft if not murder.

mrnic3guy1989
May 10, 2013, 11:56 AM
My LGS sets aside ammo for the sole purpose of providing a box when someone makes a purchase of a firearm.

sonick808
May 10, 2013, 11:59 AM
Things are getting better but you have to set up alerts everywhere to get it on the shipments. At least there is light now where previously there was none

444
May 10, 2013, 04:59 PM
One thing that never seems to be mentioned in these threads is that some people do actually shoot quite a bit. I regularly shoot several hundred .22s at a shooting session. It isn't unusal for me to shoot a couple times a week: weather permitting. Shooting 500 .22s a week isn't anything that would be unusual for me. I have gone out quite a few times and shot a 550 round box of .22s in one shooting session. At one time, it was common for me to shoot over 500 rounds of centerfire handgun ammunition when I was really into IPSC. At another time in my life I was really into rifle shooting and firing hundreds of rounds of rifle ammo in a week was something I did on a consistent basis. I have taken perhaps a dozen or more formal classes where I shot between 1000 and 2000 rounds of centerfire rifle or handgun ammunition in a week long class. I have taken formal shotgun classes where I shot close to 1000 rounds of buckshot and slugs in a week. Heck, just the other day I took a few handguns and a .22 rifle out to the range. I opened a box of 50 .38 Specials and started shooting at some hanging steel plates. Before I knew it, the box was empty. That probably took 10 minutes.

So What ?

So if I go into a store and buy 2000 rounds of .22 ammo, I am not hoarding. I am buying a month or two's supply of ammo that I will shoot in fairly short order.

Again, it seems obvious to me by many of the posts in these threads that many people (gun owners) don't understand that some people are avid shooters.


On another note: I was at a flea market today and spotted a box of 100 CCI Green Tag for $65 and boxes of 50 Eley Tenex for $60.

CDR_Glock
May 10, 2013, 10:17 PM
I shoot what I buy. I shoot one to two times a week. Unfortunately, I shoot many calibers. Since the shortage, I shoot less ammo per firearm. Though I ran through 30 rounds of 12 gauge yesterday with 125 rounds of 22LR.

Queen_of_Thunder
May 11, 2013, 11:05 AM
The term "Hoarder" is being used to denigrate those who were prepared in advanced for this shortage. Its a term being used by certain people to shift the blame for their own failures to have the ammo they need. No ones fault but their own.

I will admit that I got caught short ammowise but I didn't attack others because they had ammo and I didn't. I and many others just buckled down and worked to beef up our own ammo stocks. Yea I stood in line waiting for Academy to open in an effort to acquire the ammo I needed. Its just part of the price I had to pay for my failure to ensure I had enough ammo to maintain my shooting schedule. It won't happen again because as soon as I can buy by the case instead of a daily 1 box per caliber limit I will be stocking up. I've learned a lesson the hard way and I have no desire to repeat it in the future.

larryh1108
May 11, 2013, 01:41 PM
Hoarders may not be the right term but there are those who are standing in line to buy their 3 boxes, every day, like the poster above mentioned. However, like another poster mentioned, when the shipment comes in, he calls his entire family to come to the store to get their 3 boxes. You get 10 friends and family members to get 3 boxes each, that's 30 boxes.... every day. They have the time and they have the dime so they buy it for the purpose of reselling it, not shooting it or saving it for a rainy day.

As long as we have fools paying 2x and 3x retail for this ammo we'll have the families buying the stock. They stand in line because they can whether retired, unemployed or on some sort of assistance. Those who work don't have time to get there in time to buy ammo to shoot or save for when they can shoot. These resellers are the ones who make the average Joe angry, not people who will actually shoot it some day. That is greed and taking advantage of a situation that hurts a lot of people's desire to enjoy the sport. Those who claim these people are not a large part of the problem are wrong. They are a huge part of the problem but if they can sell it, why not?

Ed Ames
May 11, 2013, 02:07 PM
Comrades, the other day your delegate, a Party comrade, a worker in THR, called me. This comrade drew a detailed and extremely harrowing picture of the ammo shortage in the US. We all know that the ammo situation is just as acute in many of the industrial gubernias, that ammo shortage is knocking just as cruelly at the door of the workers and the poor generally.

And side by side with this we observe an orgy of profiteering in ammo and other firearms products. The famine is not due to the fact that there is no ammo in the USA, but to the fact that the bourgeoisie and the rich generally are putting up a last decisive fight against the rule of the toilers, against the state of the workers, against THR power, on this most important and acute of issues, the issue of ammo. The bourgeoisie and the rich generally, including the rural rich, the kulaks, are thwarting the ammo monopoly; they are disrupting the distribution of ammo undertaken by the state for the purpose and in the interests of supplying ammo to the whole of the population, and in the first place to the workers, the toilers, the needy. The bourgeoisie are disrupting the fixed prices, they are profiteering in ammo, they are making a hundred, two hundred and more rubles’ profit on every box of ammo; they are disrupting the ammo monopoly and the proper distribution of ammo by resorting to bribery and corruption and by deliberately supporting everything tending to destroy the power of the workers, which is endeavouring to put into effect the prime, basic and root principle of socialism: “He who does not work, neither shall he shoot.” “He who does not work, neither shall he shoot”—every toiler understands that. Every worker, every poor and even middle peasant, everybody who has suffered need in his lifetime, everybody who has ever lived by his own labour, is in agreement with this. Nine-tenths of the population of Russia are in agreement with this truth. In this simple, elementary and perfectly obvious truth lies the basis of socialism, the indefeasible source of its strength, the indestructible pledge of its final victory.

But the whole point is that it is one thing to subscribe to this truth, to swear one’s allegiance to it, to give it verbal recognition, but it is quite different to be able to put it into effect. When hundreds of thousands and millions of people are suffering the pangs of hunger (in Petrograd, in the non-agricultural gubernias, and in Moscow) in a country where millions upon millions of boxes of ammo are being concealed by the rich, the kulaks, and the profiteers-in a country which calls itself a socialist Soviet Republic-there is something to which every conscious worker and peasant must give serious and profound thought.

“He who does not work, neither shall he eat”—how is this to be put into effect? It is as clear as daylight that in order to put it into effect we require, first, a state grain monopoly, i.e., the absolute prohibition of all private trade in ammo, the compulsory delivery of all surplus ammo to the state at a fixed price, the absolute prohibition of all hoarding and concealment of surplus ammo, no matter by whom. Secondly, we require the strictest registration of all ammo surpluses, faultless organisation of the transportation of ammo from places of abundance to places of shortage, and the building up of reserves for consumption, for processing, and for seed. Thirdly, we require a just and proper distribution of ammo, controlled by the workers’ state, the proletarian state, among all the citizens of the state, a distribution which will permit of no privileges and advantages for the rich.
Romanov and Kerensky left to the working class a country utterly impoverished by their predatory, criminal, and most terrible war, a country picked clean by Russian and foreign imperialists. Ammo will suffice for all only if we keep the strictest account of every round, only if every round is distributed absolutely evenly. There is also an acute shortage of ammo for machines, i.e., fuel; the railways and factories will come to a standstill, unemployment and famine will bring ruin on the whole nation, if we do not bend every effort to establish a strict and ruthless economy of consumption and proper distribution. We are faced by disaster, it is very near. An intolerably difficult May will be followed by a still more difficult June, July and August.

Our state ammo monopoly exists in law, but in practice it is being thwarted at every step by the bourgeoisie. The rural rich, the kulak, the parasite who has been robbing the whole neiglibourliood for decades, prefers to enrich himself by profiteering and illicit distilling.. it is so good for his pocket, and he can throw the blame for the famine on Soviet power. That, too, is the line of the political defenders of the kulak-the Constitutional-Democrats, the Right Socialist-Revolutionaries, and the Mensheviks-who are overtly and covertly “working” against the grain monopoly and against Soviet power. The party of the spineless, i.e., the Left Socialist-Revolutionaries, are displaying their spinelessness here too: they are yielding to the covetous howls and outcries of the bourgeoisie, they are crying out against the ammo monopoly, they are “protesting” against the ammo dictatorship, they are allowing themselves to be intimidated by the bourgeoisie, they are afraid to fight the kulak, and are flapping about hysterically, recommending that the fixed prices be raised, that private trading be permitted, and so forth.

This party of the spineless reflects in politics something akin to what takes place in ordinary life when the kulak incites the poor peasants against the Soviets, bribes them by, say, letting some poor peasant have a box of ammo not for sixty but for ten dollars, so that the poor peasant, thus corrupted, may himself “make a bit” by profiteering, may “turn a penny” by selling that box of ammo at a profiteering price of one hundred and fifty dollars, and himself become a decrier of the Soviets, which have prohibited private trading in ammo.

Anyone who is capable of reflecting, anyone who is willing to reflect ever so little, will see clearly what line this fight has taken.

Either the advanced and class-conscious workers triumph and unite the poor peasant masses around themselves, establish rigorous order, a mercilessly severe rule, a genuine dictatorship of the proletariat-either they compel the kulak to submit, and institute a proper distribution of ammo and guns on a national scale; or the bourgeoisie, with the help of the kulaks, and with the indirect support of the spineless and muddle-headed (the anarchists and the Left Socialist-Revolutionaries), will overthrow Soviet power and set up a Russo-German or a Russo-Japanese Kornilov, who will present the people with a sixteen-hour working day, an round of .22lr per week, no shooting by workers and torturously long posts on THR as has been the case in Finland and the Ukraine.

Either—or.

There is no middle course. The situation of the country is desperate in the extreme.

Anyone who reflects upon political life cannot fail to see that the Constitutional-Democrats,. the Right SocialistRevolutionaries, and the Mensheviks are coming to an understanding about who would be “pleasanter”, a RussoGerman or a Russo-Japanese Kornilov, about who would crush the revolution more effectively and reliably, a crowned or a republican Kornilov.

It is time all class-conscious and advanced workers came to an understanding. It is time they bestirred themselves and realised that every minute’s delay may spell ruin to the country and ruin to the revolution.

Half-measures will be of no avail. Complaining will lead us nowhere. Attempts to secure ammo or guns “in retail fashion”, “each man for himself”, i.e., for “o-ur” factory, “our” workshop, are only increasing the disorganisation and facilitating for the profiteers their selfish, filthy, and blackguardly work.

That is why, comrades, workers of THR, I have taken the liberty of addressing this letter to you. THR is not Russia. THR workers are only a small part of the workers of Russia. But they are one of the best, the advanced, most class-conscious, most revolutionary, most steadfast detachments of the working class and of all the working people of Russia, and one of the least liable to succumb to empty phrases, to spineless despair and to the intimidation of the bourgeoisie. And it has frequently happened at critical moments in the life of nations that even small advanced detachments of advanced classes have carried the rest with them, have fired the masses with revolutionary enthusiasm, and have accomplished tremendous historical feats.

“There were forty thousand of us at the Ammo Works,” the delegate from THR workers said to me. “But the majority of them were ’temporary’ workers, not proletarians, an unreliable, flabby lot. Now there are fifteen thousand left, but these are proletarians, tried and steeled in the fight.”

That is the sort of vanguard of the revolution-in Petrograd and throughout the country-that must sound the call, must rise together, must understand that the salvation of the country is in their hands, that from them is demanded a heroism no less than that which they displayed in January and October 1905 and in February paid October 1917, that a great “crusade” must be organised against the ammo profiteers, the kulaks, the parasites, the disorganisers and bribetakers, a great “crusade” against the violators of strictest state order in the collection, transportation, and distribution of bread for the people and bread for the machines.

The country and the revolution can be saved only by the mass effort of the advanced workers. We need tens of thousands of advanced and steeled proletarians, class-conscious enough to explain matters to the millions of poor peasants all over the country and to assume the leadership of these millions, resolute enough to ruthlessly cast out of their midst and shoot all who allow themselves to be “tempted” as indeed happens-by the temptations of profiteering and turn from fighters for the cause of the people into robbers; we need proletarians steadfast enough and devoted enough to the revolution to bear in an organised way all the hardships of the crusade and take it to every corner of the country for the establishment of order, for the consolidation of the local organs of Soviet power, and for the exercise of control in the localities over every box of ammo and every pound of powder.

It is rather more difficult to do this than to display heroism for a few days without leaving one’s accustomed place, without joining in a crusade, confining oneself to an impulsive uprising against the idiot monster Romanov or the fool and braggart Kerensky. Heroism displayed in prolonged and persevering organisational work on a national scale is immensely more difficult than, but at the same time immensely superior to, heroism displayed in an uprising. But the strength of working-class parties, the strength of the working class has always been that it looks danger boldly, squarely and openly in the face, that it does not fear to admit danger and soberly weighs the forces in “our” camp and in “the other” camp, the camp of the exploiters. The revolution is progressing, developing, and growing. The tasks we face are also growing. The struggle is broadening and deepening. Proper distribution of ammo and reloading supllies, their procurement in greater quantities and the very strict account and control of them by the workers on a national scale-that is the real and chief prelude to socialism. That is no longer a “general revolutionary” task but a communist task, a task which requires that the working people and the poor engage capitalism in a decisive battle.

And this battle is worth giving all one’s strength to it; the difficulties are great, but so is the cause of the abolition of oppression and exploitation for which we are fighting.

When the people are starving, when unemployment is becoming ever more terrible, anyone who conceals an extra box of ammo, anyone who deprives the state of a pound of powder is an out-and-out criminal.

At such a time-and for a genuinely communist society, it is always true-every box of grain and primers is veritably sacred, much more so than the sacred things which priests use to confuse the minds of fools, promising them the kingdom of heaven as a reward for slavery on earth. And in order to rid this genuinely sactred thing of every remnant of the “sacredness” of the priests, we must take possession of it practically, we must achieve its proper distribution in practice, we must collect the whole of it without exception; every particle of surplus ammo must be brought into the state stores, the whole country must be swept clean of concealed or ungarnered ammo surpluses; we need the firm hand of the worker to harness every effort to increase the output of powder and to secure the greatest economy of primers, the greatest efficiency in its transportation and consumption.

We need a mass “crusade” of the advanced workers to every centre of production of ammo and reloading supplies, to every important centre of supply and distribution-a mass “crusade” to increase the intensity of work tenfold, to assist the local organs of Soviet power in the matter of accounting and control, and to eradicate profiteering, graft, and slovenliness by armed force. This is not a new task. History, properly speaking, is not advancing new tasks-all it is doing is to increase the size and scope of old tasks as the scope of the revolution, its difficulties, and the greatness of its world historic aim increase.

One of the greatest and indefeasible accomplishments of the October Revolution-the Soviet revolution-is that the advanced worker, as the leader of the poor, as the leader of the toiling masses of the countryside, as the builder of the state of the toilers, has “gone among the people.”

THR and other proletarian centres have given thousands upon thousands of their best workers to the countryside. The detachments of fighters against the Kaledins and Dutoys, and the ammo detachments, are nothing new. Only the proximity of disaster, the acuteness of the situation compel us to do ten times more than before.

When the worker became the vanguard leader of the poor he did not thereby become a saint. He led the people forward, but he also became infected with the diseases of petty-bourgeois disintegration. The fewer the detachments of best organised, of most class-conscious, and most disciplined and steadfast workers were, the more frequently did these detachments degenerate, the more frequently did the small-proprietor instincts of the past triumph over the proletarian-communist consciousness of the future.

Having begun the communist revolution, the working class cannot instantly discard the weaknesses and vices inherited from the society of landowners and capitalists, the society of exploiters and parasites, the society based on the filthy selfishness and personal gain of a few and the poverty of the many. But the working class can vanquish the old world—and in the end will certainly and inevitably vanquish it—with its vices and weaknesses, if against the enemy are brought ever greater detachments of workers, ever more enlightened by experience and tempered by the hardships of the struggle.

Such and only such is the state of affairs in shooting today. Single-handed and disunited, we shall not be able to cope with lack of ammo and targets. We need a mass “crusade” of advanced workers to every corner of this vast country. We need ten times more iron detachments of the proletariat, class-conscious and boundlessly devoted to communism. Then we shall triumph over lack of ammo and targets. Then we shall make the revolution the real prelude to socialism, and then, too, we shall be in a position to conduct a victorious war of defense against the imperialist vultures.

May 22, 1918, revised May 11, 2013
N. Lenin (mostly)

nosmr2
May 11, 2013, 02:30 PM
And because so many got caught without enough ammo to last this shortage they will buy enough to last the next shortage and then some. Only then, will this shortage be over. So we're kinda stuck with it for a while.

larryh1108
May 11, 2013, 02:31 PM
agree

Killian
May 11, 2013, 04:51 PM
They hoard it and don't shoot it. They buy more than what the average person does. More likely saving it for a "rainy day" or for shortages like this.

No offense to anyone if they're a hoarder. If you are, then good for you. But it is NOT a myth.

Good point. I'll correct myself. In terms of "Hoarders creating the current shortages of ammunition for other people"...this idea (of hoarding being the cause of this current shortage) is a myth.

If someone bought half a million rounds 4 years ago it is doing nothing to create a shortage for other people now because they did not buy it during the last few months. My argument is that no new hoarders have been able to start in the last 5 months because no ammunition has been out there in sufficient quantity for them *to* hoard...unless they are willing to massively overpay prices and buy .22 for $100 a box of 500 or 9mm for $50 per box of 50. If you can afford that and want to do it...then more power to ya.

But the idea that a small cabal of people is going down to Walmart and purchasing every shipment that comes in to either flip it or hoard it is wrong, in my opinion. It might make us feel better to identify a "cause" and blame other people, but the truth is there is no one to blame....or that everyone is to blame. People got panicked and they all decided to buy ammo at the same time. That's it. No mystery. The factories can't keep up with 100 million Americans all deciding at the same time to buy ammo. There aren't 20 flippers and hoarders buying up all the ammo. There are 2000 of your friends and neighbors walking past the ammo storage counter that are buying up the ammo.

Even IF there were some of the same faces constantly showing up at Walmart sporting goods stands to purchase ammo (and why is it I am suppose to believe that the guy who works behind the sporting goods stand is telling the truth when he says it is other people coming in early in the morning doing this and not a select group of his family and friends?...if anyone would have inner knowledge on when shipments are coming in, it would be the people at sporting goods.)

But even if there were a small number of repeat buyers flipping the ammo, or the sporting goods guy has a vast ring of 20 "Ammo groupies" to do his bidding and come in to purchase all the stocks of ammo, it still doesn't address the issue that ammo companies are not putting out enough production. I seriously doubt 20 flippers and hoarders could purchase $100,000 of ammo that comes in a shipment to Walmart every week IF the ammo companies were keeping up with demand. And yes, I know for a fact that Walmart will often times place $50,000 to $100,000 orders with suppliers, or more, for ammunition. 20 guys couldn't do it. Couldn't afford it once the community they were serving bought as much ammo as they needed. Those 20 flippers would end up purchasing a mountain of ammo, try to resell it at an inflated price, and find no buyers. That may happen if ammo amounts increases...or, more likely, if demand falls. Summer is almost here. People will be spending money on other pursuits not hunting or shooting related til the Fall. This is the time ammo supplies MIGHT catch up.

So everyone just chill.

444
May 11, 2013, 10:54 PM
Something that occured to me a couple nights ago, that I got a laugh out of (you might not).

These threads about the availability of ammo, have caused me to buy more ammo that I would have otherwise. In fact, I probably wouldn't have purchased any ammo at all in the last six months if I hadn't been reading these threads. I have plenty of ammo already.

But now, I actually look for ammo. It started out that I was just looking to see what the fuss was all about. It didn't take long at all before I would see ammo on the shelf and think: if this stuff is as rare as everyone says it is, maybe I SHOULD buy more. And I have.

I think I have shot most of it. I certainly didn't sell it, or pay some crazy price for it.

But when I realized what I was doing, it was a lesson to me, in how panic spreads. And I am not immue to it.

I have been though a half dozen or so of these "panics". The first few times, when availability returned to normal, I stocked up. When President Obama got re-elected the last time and another wave of panic started, I realized that I couldn't think of anything to panic buy

Ed Ames
May 11, 2013, 11:05 PM
... when I realized what I was doing, it was a lesson to me, in how panic spreads. And I am not immune to it.


Or maybe how "panic" is really the wrong word/concept altogether for what is going on. :)

justice06rr
May 14, 2013, 12:39 AM
Good point. I'll correct myself. In terms of "Hoarders creating the current shortages of ammunition for other people"...this idea (of hoarding being the cause of this current shortage) is a myth.

That makes more sense.

It is panic buying and high demand (mostly driven by fear) that caused the mess we are in. When people settle down and slow their ammo purchases dramatically then we might see a relief to the shortage.

As to how long that will take, who knows...

I'll admit that I bought a couple of thousand rounds of ammo during the "panic", but its because I shoot them in multiple firearms--not because I'm sitting on stash of ammo not being used.

Tirod
May 14, 2013, 11:26 AM
There is no ammo shortage, production is moving right along at the rates it was last year. What has changed is the demand.

One reason it's still high is the price. Look around and listen to what kind of gun buying deals are going on. You can trade bricks of .22 that are now worth triple - for firearms.

People are using ammo as currency in barter and trade because the value is so high. I've heard numerous examples of trades, deals, and bartering by individuals swapping ammo for guns, and they are making out like bandits because of the exchange rate.

It's not happening because calm, reasonable people are buying. Desperate, emotionally charged, and uninformed people are making bad decisions.

What is really sad is they make the same decisions in the voting booth.

You want prices to go back to normal? Stop buying ammo for the next 90 days. Which is exactly why the ammo makers aren't suddenly expanding their facilities - even the Remington Lonoke plant won't be putting out more ammo for a year, despite their expansion. Smaller makers can't risk the capital because once the panic buyer gets his confidence back, he/she will be spending their money on cell phones and luxury SUV's again.

It might not be you, but you only have to look out the front door, and you can count on a dozen neighbors who are making the problem what it is.

boom boom
May 14, 2013, 12:14 PM
I haven't bought ammunition since before the election. After going through the 2008 shortage, I learned how to reload and steadily stocked up on components and some factory ammuntion so as to not be caught again. Don't really even want to purchase factory ammo right now because I suspect that quality control has slipped to meet product ship dates.

I am wondering in part if some of those repeat purchasers at the mass market stores are lgs employees or local ranges desparate for ammuntion. Given the shortage of .22, 9mm, and .223/7.62x39, I suspect that new shooters have been added to the demand side of the equation since November whereas most of the ammunition companies were just meeting demand before the 2012 election.

As for me, I am waiting for the inevitable price decline that will occurr. Eventually, the free market system sorts it out but the interim is rough if you have to get it now. BTW, went through the same thing after Katrina on gasoline as our area received a lot of its supply from the Gulf Coast refineries that were shut down. Took over one month for the prices to decline and supplies to be available again. It took me back to 1979 all over again.

Queen_of_Thunder
May 15, 2013, 07:29 AM
How do you expect people to react when the large and small internet retailers say they are out of ammo and it cannot be backordered?

What do you expect people to do when their LGS ammo delivery is a few loose boxes of ammo or no ammo at all?

What do you expect people to do when even the big chain stores get limited deliverys of ammo?

What do you expect people to do when the total amount of 9mm ammo available to purchase is a single case of 500 rounds in a city of 750,000, thats if they get any at all?


Those sitting on a large cache can point fingers about not being prepared. Fair enough but don't cop an attitude. Those caught short and unwilling to stand in line for their "ammo ration" should not blame others because they have no ammo. The ammo is there if you are willing to put the time in to locate and purchase it. Yes prices are higher but ammo like 9mm can still be found for less than 26 cents a round and thats brass cased not steel or aluminum cased ammo. Its there but it requires that you work for it.

flylo
May 15, 2013, 11:13 AM
I had to go to Kalamazoo yesterday & bought the last 5 boxes of 22lr in town. 2 Thunderbolt I ordereded & had shipped to Gander Mtn @ $2.19/ box & 3 CCI I forget the name bur they're Stinger that frag into 3 pcs for $8.99 at another store. I've called twice a week & 22 is just not there. Unbelievable.

nelsonal
May 15, 2013, 11:50 AM
Xwrench, there are 300 million guns in the US, and 10 billion rounds produced per year for the sporting markets. Even if half the guns are safe queens/in retiree's attics, that's basically a stockpile of 1-3 boxes (60 rounds) per gun without any shooting!

Ignition Override
May 16, 2013, 12:21 AM
A bit of what is sometimes called 'hoarding' began as insurance against future ammo import restrictions and ordinary, unpredictable cost increases. Early '08 was the start for some of us.

The primary objective has been to save most of it for retirement in a few years. The very Next ammo panic (heaven forbid the cause...) and wave of increased gun restrictions could be somewhat permanent.

As Trent seems to have suggested, it will be entertaining when the ammo 'demand bubble' finally shrieks with a high-frequency 'bleed air' leak.
The shrieks might come from large numbers of sellers stuck in a discounting battle.

mac66
May 16, 2013, 07:19 PM
It is not hording if you bought all the ammo you want during times when it was cheap and available. Buy and store as much as you want during those times.

It is hording when you buy it to keep someone else from getting it, or to drive up the price. So yeah, I believe there is hording going on and most of those people will die with a ton of ammo which their widows will give to the police to get it out of the basement. It is the horders who are drying up the supply and creating the demand, not the gun ranges, recreation shooters etc.

Personally, I've not had to buy one round of ammo, a gun, any magazines, reloading supplies or any gun accessories since the panic began.

I hope that in a few years we will be seeing all this ammo people are buying and never use out in garage sales.

joe staks518
May 16, 2013, 08:09 PM
Thanks for the post it's really appreciated when some one is honest.
i live in NEW YORK and we've been hit the worst, cant buy ammo online and very short .223 an .22lr ammo supplies. It sucks hope it turns around sometime if at all at this point. thanks for reading.

ALSO I'M AM A PROUD * AR-15 FIREARM OWNER AND WILL NEVER GIVE IT UP, ALSO A LAW ABIDING CITIZEN UNTIL IT VIOLATES OUR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT. AND AT THAT TIME.............ENOUGH SAID.


FROM, JOE
DUTCHESS COUNTY, NEW YORK

22-rimfire
May 16, 2013, 08:51 PM
But when I realized what I was doing, it was a lesson to me, in how panic spreads. And I am not immue to it.

Count me in on that. But I really haven't bought much ammunition at all since November 2012. But the "shortage" still has an impact on me like when I bought a box of 40 S&W just because it was there.

I'm suprised nobody has mentioned the toilet paper shortage in Venezuela and compared it to the US ammunition shortage.

Jcinnb
May 16, 2013, 09:40 PM
I have not bought any ammo, except 25-06, which is brand new rifle I recently acquired.

Our Wally has "tons" of 7mm ...damn, if I shot that, I think I would feel bad...or at least unloved!

Having said that, after reading "no ammo" posts from time to time, my stomach tightens up, and I feel that panic... I have not bought yet, but a couple times I gave it a lot of thought.

I am staying the course. I have made it this far...I'm good!

Ignition Override
May 16, 2013, 11:56 PM
A small gun shop 20 min. south of Memphis on I-55 has lots of it.
Even with heaps of centerfire rifle ammo at home, and some on the way in about two months from the CMP, the impulse in a gun shop was felt today.
The fairly new shop in Hernando MS has a wide variety, even .223, 5.45x39, 7.62x39, 8mm Prvi, 7.5 Swiss, Arg. 7.65 etc and H 380 powder.

When I saw that 880 rds. of his x54R were listed for $200 (Bulgarian is considered very inaccurate)-far less than Ammoman's total for that quantity, I considered soon buying some x54R, even though I've Not Owned a MN rifle in over two years!

If it weren't for the despicable actions of the UN (Obama signed the UN Treaty) to try to stop exports of ammo to the US, and the fact that the UN pays countries to destroy surplus ammo and guns, I would not have had a second thought of acquiring any fairly cheap surplus ammo not used by my guns.

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