Why plastic containers?


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BSA1
May 10, 2013, 04:22 PM
I just received a order of GOEX and it was all in plastic containers. I thought plastic was bad because of the risk from static electricity.

Why the change?

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BlackNet
May 10, 2013, 04:36 PM
Some plastic is bad, some is good. Really depends on what is in it. Also depends on what type of powder it is as well. I would point you to ctmuzzleloaders.com but they are down currently. They did testing and shows that with graphite added black powder can take some serious electrical charges before going off.

Driftwood Johnson
May 10, 2013, 08:18 PM
Howdy

Schuetzen has been shipped in plastic jugs for a long time.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/black%20powder%20loading/schuetzenbottle.jpg

The jury is really out and Black Powder and Electro Static Discharge. Informal tests do seem to show that the graphite coating on the grains tends to conduct static charges over the surface of the grains without causing enough resistance to cause enough heat to ignite the powder. There are photos on the web demonstrating this, however I am not aware of any serious testing in a laboratory situation.

BlackNet
May 10, 2013, 09:16 PM
Same with swiss, kik, and a whole slew of others.

freedom475
May 10, 2013, 11:27 PM
Yep...the Only way to ignite Black Powder is Heat A little static shock is no where near enough of a heat generator.

Compression or shock won't ignite it either...that is why it works so well. You can compress it into a 45-70 case until it bulges the case and when it is fired it still won't explode from the shock....it simply ignites from heat and burns consistantly and evenly, no matter if it is confined or in open air.

dprice3844444
May 10, 2013, 11:35 PM
cheaper to produce,plastic doesn't rust or spark.pops back to original shape when squeezed.don't have to use the tinning/galvanizing process to preserve the can.plastic is lighter.

Fingers McGee
May 10, 2013, 11:46 PM
I thought plastic was bad because of the risk from static electricity.


Old wives tale. Static electricity is only dangerous around high concentrations of dust in the air. BP plants explode from dust accumulation in the same way that grain elevators do.

bothenook
May 11, 2013, 02:30 AM
problem with goex coming in plastic is that the nifty cap mounted valves a lot of us use to refill our horns with are going to require punching holes in plastic, and figuring out how to mount the valve so that it stays mounted at least as long as the jug has powder in it.

Caliper_RWVA
May 11, 2013, 07:26 AM
Until someone makes a valve that fits the plastic jug...

Malachi Leviticus Blue
May 11, 2013, 09:36 AM
Until someone makes a valve that fits the plastic jug...

Like this one? Looks like it will solve your horn filling problems so you can keep shooting.

http://www.rmcoxyoke.com/inc/sdetail/8944

44 Dave
May 11, 2013, 03:45 PM
OK my old DuPont cans have gotten a little rusty over the years.
I have a cap with a casing soldered on for a spout, the question is do I transfer the powder or try to figure how to solder plastic, 'cause you know that new spout will cost more than $10 with postage and handling.

Driftwood Johnson
May 11, 2013, 06:00 PM
Compression or shock won't ignite it either...that is why it works so well. You can compress it into a 45-70 case until it bulges the case and when it is fired it still won't explode from the shock....it simply ignites from heat and burns consistantly and evenly, no matter if it is confined or in open air. (at around 3,000 fps I believe)

Sorry, Black Powder does not burn that fast. Black Powder only burns at a rate of hundreds of feet per second, depending on the exact composition of the powder. 3,000 fps is the detonation speed of high explosives. Black powder does not detonate, it deflagrates. That is a fancy way of saying it burns, relying on heat transferred throughout the mass to ignite the whole. High explosives do not burn the same way, they detonate, relying on a supersonic shock wave to propagate the explosion through out the material. 3,000 fps is getting into the territory of high explosives.

Jaymo
May 11, 2013, 07:36 PM
You may be able to use a hot glue gun to adhere the valve to the plastic bottle.
A plastic welder will only fuse plastics of the same type, or compositions that use one of the same type.

freedom475
May 11, 2013, 07:44 PM
Thanks for mentioning that about the BP speed.....So do you know the actually burn speed of our sporting BP? I find info ranging all over the place but no concrete numbers

You mentioned that High explosive was 3K but that is not so...."High" Explosive is 30,000 fps

BlackNet
May 11, 2013, 10:13 PM
Violette did some testing back in the day. Long story short he said a direct relationship between ignition temp and the temperatures at which the
charcoal is carbonized. i.e. burn rate is related to its ignition temp.

Sassel said 25% of volatile content in charcoal is optimal for use. Also see Kirshenbaum, Hintze, Gray, March, Robertson and Rose.

As for actual speed, the chart shows

http://wetlands.simplyaquatics.com/d/39754-2/BlackPowderManufacturing_TestingandOptimizing_Page_090.jpg

freedom475
May 12, 2013, 12:57 AM
so according to that chart BP burns at less than 1 fps??? The chart lists cm/s and there are about 30cm per/ft.

That seems quite slow??

DaveP (UK)
May 12, 2013, 03:36 AM
Going back to the OPs question, a similar change happened in the UK a few years ago at the instigation of some government department - Health and Safety comes to mind, but don't quote me :)
The reason given was that if a plastic container of BP is involved in a fire it will go Phutt! rather than the Boom! of a steel can. We are also now required to keep our plastic bottles in a compartmented plywood box, not a safe. Same reason.

Driftwood Johnson
May 12, 2013, 07:54 AM
Thanks for mentioning that about the BP speed.....So do you know the actually burn speed of our sporting BP? I find info ranging all over the place but no concrete numbers

I have a couple of books on explosives and I thought I had seen a reference to the speed that a flame propagates through BP in them but I could not find it. So I went on the web and the best answer I could find was 'hundreds' of fps. You are correct, high explosives often approach 30,000 fps.

Some high explosives don't really 'burn' the way we think of it with Black Powder and Smokeless sporting powders. Instead, once ignited a shock wave travels through the material at supersonic speeds and that is where the high explosives come in. But with Black Powder this does not happen, the material ignites progressively as the heat travels through the material at subsonic speeds.

I should have said that 3,0000 fps would put BP at the threshold of high explosives.

BlackNet
May 12, 2013, 10:26 AM
ctmuzzleloaders.com experiments in bp burn rate (http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/bp_burning/bp_burning.html)

fdf
May 13, 2013, 01:21 PM
Since you purchased Goex and they packaged it, why not call them and ask.

Then you would know, instead of www. speculation..

BlackNet
May 13, 2013, 03:32 PM
Goex us well known for saying 'trade secret' even on common things.

Gaucho Gringo
May 13, 2013, 05:48 PM
Old wives tale. Static electricity is only dangerous around high concentrations of dust in the air. BP plants explode from dust accumulation in the same way that grain elevators do.
Sawdust does the same thing. Years ago when I worked in a door factory we had a sawdust explosion in the dust collector pipes that were over 18" in diameter. I was about 100 feet away. When it went off it was a 25 foot wall of fire in the building and debris flying all over. It was like in the movies, only real. All I could do is hit the deck. Fortunately no one was injured as it happened on swing shift and the area where it happened was shut down. I was closer to the blast than anyone and wouldn't want to go through something like it ever again. I was not so lucky the next time something happened and almost lost my right leg below the knee. After 6 months of not too pleasant time off I was back at work.

BSA1
May 13, 2013, 06:05 PM
fdf,

The smokeless powder shortage has caused me to become seriously interested in shooting BP firearms. I have limited experience with BP and freely admit my ignorance.

I figure the best source for information for the care and feeding of my smoke poles is the collective decades (hundreds?) of years of experience of shooters on this forum.

I have already learned about how to make my wads and lube from this forum.


If you have practical knowledge or experience on the topic I would like to hear about it.

Gatofeo
May 13, 2013, 10:45 PM
LOL!
I like www.speculation.com!

It's where I go to find out about treatment for gout, the dangers of vaccinating children, how to find a fortune in gold, the best device to raise my gas mileage to 60 mpg, the real about the Sept. 11 attack, what's in the hangars at Area 51 and a host of other topics.
Thanks to www.speculation.com, I know a lot more than the rest of you, and it's all trueeeeeeeeeee!

www.speculation.com ... the perfect description for the internet!
Thanks fdf!

Jaymo
May 15, 2013, 08:18 PM
Gato, you know, they can't post anything on the internet that's not true.:rolleyes:

I don't know why they switched to plastic containers.
Don't expect me to carry mine in anything other than a horn or flask.
I'd be embarassed to be seen with a plastic jug of Goex.

Driftwood Johnson
May 15, 2013, 08:32 PM
Most of my powder is inside cartridges, so I don't care what it gets shipped in.

BlackNet
May 15, 2013, 08:50 PM
A horn is no less safe than a plastic jug or a metal jug.

thegiff
May 16, 2013, 09:49 AM
Plastics can have additives added to reduce static electricity, for instance in some plastics carbon black is used, which also changes the color to black. Other additives can reduce charging effects, coatings can be applied like in antistatic bags (the silvery bags that circuit boards are shipped in), and so on.

Fingers McGee
May 16, 2013, 12:18 PM
I don't know why they switched to plastic containers.


It's simple really. $$$$ It costs less to produce an injection molded can than it does a 3 piece metal can.

ThorinNNY
May 16, 2013, 04:07 PM
If I get my Goex in a plastic container- why I`ll just pour it into an empty metal Goex can.Problem resolved to MY satisfaction.

Jaymo
May 16, 2013, 07:02 PM
I've been using the cap/spout from a plastic bottle of gear oil, as a pour spout for my metal can of Goex.
I had to use 2 bottles of gear oil, so I used one spout with both bottles, and kept the other spout unused.

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