Is AR quality declining since "the panic" started?


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gunsrfun1
May 11, 2013, 09:39 PM
I'm curious if there is any sort of general consensus (or just opinions) on whether this may not be the best time to buy an AR, due to potential quality control issues. IMO, it stands to reason that if these manufacturers are running day and night to fill orders, quality will suffer. (Although they won't tell you that.) An AR put together by an off-the-street newbie working the graveyard shift doesn't inspire confidence. Nor do parts that may have been manufactured as quick as they can be turned out. Plus, I have to think with parts being scarce, some manufacturers are sourcing them from "second tier" suppliers that they may not have considered using in the past.
Case in point: I ordered an upper from one of the "value" brands and the bore was hosed. They sent me a new one, but it still had a couple fit-and-finish issues (which they did resolve.)
I'm not in a major hurry ... would it be best to wait until things settle down a bit before I buy my next AR? (I do think the panic will subside eventually.)
Thanks

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Quentin
May 11, 2013, 09:56 PM
I think you're right that there's been an urgency to get ARs and parts rushed out the door so QC at some manufacturers has slipped. I got a BCG that was sold as MPI but the bolt wasn't marked. Seems some batch-tested bolts got sourced to complete orders so there were complaints from people who expected individual bolt testing/marking. It's getting sorted out but a problem for many.

If someone can wait it's likely prices will go lower and quality might get better.

Warp
May 11, 2013, 11:58 PM
I don't think so.

Buy from the same reputable companies that make quality products, same as before. Prices spiking for a few months due to panic isn't going to change this.

I'd say that your case is point is more like: Order from a "value" brand, and you stand a greater chance of something being amiss. Prices spiking for a few months due to panic isn't going to change that, either.

Ditch-Tiger
May 12, 2013, 10:28 AM
Quality is definitely suffering; just check out all the "my blot exploded!" threads on AR15.com.
This being said, if you stick with a high end reputable manufacturer, you won't see this. The problem comes from new manufacturers racing to keep up with demand and individuals sacrificing brands to finish a build.

MagnumWill
May 12, 2013, 10:36 AM
Being a process engineer my whole life, I'm almost certain this could be the case. If you think about it, unless you're making fasteners and nails your production schedule is going to be about equal (if not slightly more) than your capacity to churn out product. If suddenly your orders are quadruple what your process (be it lowers, barreled actions, trigger groups, etc) can handle, mashing the throttle on your machines and workforce UNDOUBTEDLY reduces quality. Anyone saying otherwise is either A) running under capacity or B) making something simple or has a potentially low failure rate. Makers like Colt and Sig Sauer are not exempt from this - their processes are still ran by humans :)

Frankly, I'm wary of just about anything that comes out of a firearm-related factory for a little while yet. Even ammo - remember when Hornady(I think it was them) accidentally mixed a partial pistol powder batch in with rifle powder and sent out a recall? You better believe quality can slip when a 9-5 operation suddenly goes 24-7 in a week's time. Just MHO.

gunsrfun1
May 12, 2013, 10:42 AM
Thanks all, you're reinforcing my suspicions. Magnum, I liked your comment about ammo. I've bought some to stock up on when it's available, but I'm trying to avoid the hoarding mentality that's driving all these shortages. I try to buy enough to keep me ahead of my needs. But I don't over-buy, and one of the reasons is that I am concerned about QC on ammo as well as guns. Who knows if that XXX value-pack is really as good as the pre-panic production lots when they're running the factory full-tilt, or moving production from one line to the other, etc?

Warp
May 12, 2013, 12:59 PM
Quality is definitely suffering; just check out all the "my blot exploded!" threads on AR15.com.

I call BS.

Unless you can show links to multiple accounts of recently purchased Carpenter 158, HPT/MPI bolts exploding.

That, I would love to see.

Being a process engineer my whole life, I'm almost certain this could be the case. If you think about it, unless you're making fasteners and nails your production schedule is going to be about equal (if not slightly more) than your capacity to churn out product. If suddenly your orders are quadruple what your process (be it lowers, barreled actions, trigger groups, etc) can handle, mashing the throttle on your machines and workforce UNDOUBTEDLY reduces quality. Anyone saying otherwise is either A) running under capacity or B) making something simple or has a potentially low failure rate. Makers like Colt and Sig Sauer are not exempt from this - their processes are still ran by humans :)

Frankly, I'm wary of just about anything that comes out of a firearm-related factory for a little while yet. Even ammo - remember when Hornady(I think it was them) accidentally mixed a partial pistol powder batch in with rifle powder and sent out a recall? You better believe quality can slip when a 9-5 operation suddenly goes 24-7 in a week's time. Just MHO.

You are operating under the assumption that they are mashing the throttle on the machines and workforce, at the expense of the quality of the product.

What makes you so sure that the quality, reputable, established manufacturers did or are doing that??

taliv
May 12, 2013, 01:25 PM
Four years ago when this happened after the first Obama election there was definitely a spike in failures. Particularly ammo

SSN Vet
May 12, 2013, 01:44 PM
There is a very real potential problem that comes when a manufacturer adds add'l shifts, and that is deluting your pool of talent. This is particularly problematic with your pool of experienced and capable supervisors, as often times, their seniority allows them to choose to stay on their normal (most often day) shift. Finding and training skilled workers to man add'l shifts is tough enough. Going up a level and finding skilled and experienced supervisors to do the training and coach the newbies is especially hard.

But the few articles I've read, indicate that manufacturers know this surge of demand will be limited in duration, and they are not ramping up with new plants and that they have been already running three shifts in their existing facilities. So all they can really do to increase their production output, is to extend their existing shifts through the weekend with mandatory OT.

But not every process can ramp up the same. Inspection was already noted. Other operations done on extremely expensive equipment can also present a "choke point", as the cost and/or lead time to procure add'l equipment may lead the owners to opt to make do with what they have, and just let the back log grow.

People tend to love the OT at first, but after several months without a day off, it's natural to start to resent it and to fatigue of it.

Also, you can only defer machinery maintenance for so long before, you have machines go down... And sometimes you will float out of your control envelope, before you realize that the equipment finally has to have it's TLC.

In the final analyses, it really depends on how zealously the manufacturing processes and procedures are followed, as even in a normal demand environment there are tensions and conflict between the production schedule and quality controls.

Only the best outfits really have their acts together with fully developed manufacturing processes and quality controls, and given the incredible effort they've had to invest to get to where they are, it's likely that they will not deviate from their high standards!

Quentin
May 12, 2013, 01:52 PM
Quality is definitely suffering ...

This being said, if you stick with a high end reputable manufacturer, you won't see this. The problem comes from new manufacturers racing to keep up with demand and individuals sacrificing brands to finish a build.

There's a lot of truth in this, the bulk of recent quality problems likely is linked to some manufacturers being overwhelmed with orders and scrambling to find new sources of parts then shipping out product that hasn't had proper QC.

The last part of the quote points out a big part of the problem and complaints: many people are settling for ARs and components they should have passed on but they were desperate to find something, anything, at any price. No doubt some of the worst AR builds I've seen have been during this panic buying period. (For example, people who should know better have settled for low quality BCGs because they were in such short supply until recently.) However, these bottom tier builds and complete ARs often sold at inflated prices so no doubt dissatisfied folks are going to be posting on forums their displeasure - after all they paid top dollar but got low quality.

Warp
May 12, 2013, 02:24 PM
There's a lot of truth in this, the bulk of recent quality problems likely is linked to some manufacturers being overwhelmed with orders and scrambling to find new sources of parts then shipping out product that hasn't had proper QC.

What recent quality problems?

I am not familiar with what you are referring to.

Can you be more specific?

OilyPablo
May 12, 2013, 02:39 PM
Buy quality, get quality. Don't buy a junker rush-made by profit hounds trying to take advantage of a shortage caused mental midgets trying to collapse the Constitution.

Buy at least a Daniel Defense. You can tell how well an AR is constructed if you need to take it apart!

Grunt
May 12, 2013, 04:10 PM
I would suspect that any time you have to speed up your production, quality is going to suffer, especially if you want to keep the prices competitive. With your quality manufacturers, I would say that the odds of getting a lemon are lower than buying from a builder that just bangs them out as fast as they can. I really don't see Larue or Daniel Defense for example letting out too many bad guns from them. They built a reputation on top quality and with their higher prices, I don't think skimping on their quality would go well for them. On the other hand, you have the angry beavers at Century or Hesse that have problems even in good times so I would be highly suspect of anything they are cranking out at this point in time.

PabloJ
May 12, 2013, 04:15 PM
I'm curious if there is any sort of general consensus (or just opinions) on whether this may not be the best time to buy an AR, due to potential quality control issues. IMO, it stands to reason that if these manufacturers are running day and night to fill orders, quality will suffer. (Although they won't tell you that.) An AR put together by an off-the-street newbie working the graveyard shift doesn't inspire confidence. Nor do parts that may have been manufactured as quick as they can be turned out. Plus, I have to think with parts being scarce, some manufacturers are sourcing them from "second tier" suppliers that they may not have considered using in the past.
Case in point: I ordered an upper from one of the "value" brands and the bore was hosed. They sent me a new one, but it still had a couple fit-and-finish issues (which they did resolve.)
I'm not in a major hurry ... would it be best to wait until things settle down a bit before I buy my next AR? (I do think the panic will subside eventually.)
Thanks
I would not worry as these were always machine-made designed for military use clunkers. I don't see how speeding production could hurt quality of final product. We are not talking bench-made sporting rifles but cheaply designed and made military style weapons.

Warp
May 12, 2013, 05:16 PM
I would not worry as these were always machine-made designed for military use clunkers. I don't see how speeding production could hurt quality of final product. We are not talking bench-made sporting rifles but cheaply designed and made military style weapons.

It could.

The specifics mentioned in this thread are accurate.

I don't think we have any reason to believe that is what happens with the quality manufacturers, but, yes...it could/does.

MaterDei
May 12, 2013, 05:23 PM
Companies with long term guarantees have a lot of financial incentive to get it right the first time. I'd be surprised to see a significant increase of qc issues and as the owner of two new ARs, I hope I'm right!

allfouledup
May 12, 2013, 05:35 PM
I'm glad you brought this up gunsrfun1. I stopped buying AR related anything when the scarcity and gouging started, not because I'm smart so much as I was already in pretty good shape when it became obvious. I don't have enough inside knowledge to know which manufacturers will not sacrifice quality and reputation for profit, and who will. For now it's lever guns, 270 win ammo and other stuff not effected by the panic. Anybody interested in a box of Pmags for $50 each?:D

Warp
May 12, 2013, 05:36 PM
I'm glad you brought this up gunsrfun1. I stopped buying AR related anything when the scarcity and gouging started, not because I'm smart so much as I was already in pretty good shape when it became obvious. I don't have enough inside knowledge to know which manufacturers will not sacrifice quality and reputation for profit, and who will. For now it's lever guns, 270 win ammo and other stuff not effected by the panic. Anybody interested in a box of Pmags for $50 each?:D

You should try to acquire some of that insight before you buy anything.

If you think no companies ever sacrificed quality and reputation for profits prior to the panic, well, I think you're a bit ignorant as to how the world works.

There have always been and will always be companies and people who will do that.

allfouledup
May 12, 2013, 06:19 PM
Oh YES MAAM! I will always cherish your wise and condescending words! I guess you must have a secret decoder ring that allows you to peer into the minds of the owners brains or the collective mindset of the Boards of Directors of parent corporations. Either that or you are an employee of about 150 AR, accessory, ammo and other related small shops that gives you special insight. Oooo, I'm so glad you introduced me to the concept of researching consumer products and the oh so elusive "buyer beware"! Have a nice day. Signed, a bit ignorant:neener:

Quentin
May 12, 2013, 08:12 PM
What recent quality problems?

I am not familiar with what you are referring to.

Can you be more specific?

Warp, I know you browse AR specific forums so don't say you're not familiar with various complaints about recent AR purchases, especially from lesser brands. Also there are quite a few over the first few months of this year right here at THR. Yes, there have been issues, plenty of them.

Recent complaints I've seen involve disappointing BCGs, rails poorly installed, FCGs that act up and various assembly issues. No doubt this is less likely with Colt or BCM and more common with the $650 rifles that were pushed out fast and selling for $1200.

Warp
May 12, 2013, 08:26 PM
Warp, I know you browse AR specific forums so don't say you're not familiar with various complaints about recent AR purchases, especially from lesser brands. Also there are quite a few over the first few months of this year right here at THR. Yes, there have been issues, plenty of them.

Recent complaints I've seen involve disappointing BCGs, rails poorly installed, FCGs that act up and various assembly issues. No doubt this is less likely with Colt or BCM and more common with the $650 rifles that were pushed out fast and selling for $1200.

I am not familiar.

And yes, I do keep my ear to the ground throughout multiple forums. That is why I am quite perplexed as to what is being referred to.

I emphasized the important part of your post.

This is nothing new. People think "an AR is an AR". Well...that just isn't the case.

And, as another poster above mentioned, a lot of people paid outrageous prices for rifles that, quite frankly, are crap. And now they have unreasonably high expectations because of what they paid.

I don't think anything with the rifles themselves has changed.

WinThePennant
May 12, 2013, 09:14 PM
It's funny you mention this. I ordered a Magpul MOE Rifle Stock from an online retailer. It didn't include the buttstock retaining screw.

dcarch
May 12, 2013, 09:25 PM
Yes, I believe it is.

Quentin
May 12, 2013, 10:12 PM
I am not familiar.

And yes, I do keep my ear to the ground throughout multiple forums. That is why I am quite perplexed as to what is being referred to.

I emphasized the important part of your post.

This is nothing new. People think "an AR is an AR". Well...that just isn't the case.

And, as another poster above mentioned, a lot of people paid outrageous prices for rifles that, quite frankly, are crap. And now they have unreasonably high expectations because of what they paid.

I don't think anything with the rifles themselves has changed.

I'm not going to let you drag me into the mud triggering a brand war. We all have our own opinion which brands have long been troublesome and which have slipped over the last few months. You know as well as I that very few of us here have the time and resources to do an exhaustive, comprehensive study across all brand names of QC and parts issues before and after Sandy Hook. You have your opinion and I have mine from my observations.

I highlighted the important part of your post. That is your opinion and I disagree: the bad have gotten even worse lately and the midrange often have more QC issues. The best AR manufacturers have maintained high quality even though I recently saw pictures of a Colt BCG that was improperly staked.


ETA:

Let's put it this way: if I were buying a BCG from BCM today, I'd expect it was likely to be of equal quality to the last one I bought back in Oct/Nov. Same with Colt, Daniel Defense and a few others. If I were buying from some AR brands that I believe to be of lesser quality, I'd be leery of today's BCG over one from Nov. Of the crap makers out there, today's BCG likely would be as bad or worse than the stuff they used to sell but I really don't care at that level.

Warp
May 12, 2013, 10:46 PM
What are you basing your opinion on?

Quality is definitely suffering; just check out all the "my blot exploded!" threads on AR15.com.

I'm still waiting on the links to these threads.

the bulk of recent quality problems likely is linked to some manufacturers being overwhelmed with orders and scrambling to find new sources of parts then shipping out product that hasn't had proper QC.


What recent quality problems?

Quentin
May 13, 2013, 12:51 AM
What are you basing your opinion on?



I'm still waiting on the links to these threads.



What recent quality problems?


Nice game plan you've got there Warp. A man of few words who disagrees then burdens the other guy to come up with labor intensive proof while you don't to put forth effort.

Again, you know as well as I that very few of us here have the time and resources to do an exhaustive, comprehensive study across all brand names of QC and parts issues before and after Sandy Hook. If you do have the time then I'd like to see your statistics that things are as they always have been.

dcarch
May 13, 2013, 01:18 AM
Here we go! (grabs popcorn)
http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/010/100/dis%20gon%20be%20good.gif

MagnumWill
May 13, 2013, 01:52 AM
What makes you so sure that the quality, reputable, established manufacturers did or are doing that??

Tell that to Toyota :)

It truly depends on the manufacturing process, not which company is running it. An injection mold running around the clock could care less -detail parts that take operators re-positioning them in machines, running worn out or overheated bits, currently on the 10th hour of work on Friday, etc. will definitely show a difference, four-times oversold or not. And if your process is overheated-chances are your quality system and inspectors will be too. They all work the same long hours. Again, it's a human-touch-time thing.


Not to start any shenanigans or anything- I truly do respect your opinion, Warp, and thanks :)

68wj
May 13, 2013, 07:53 AM
A shooter had a buffer fall apart in his rifle yesterday. It looks like there was no roll pin in the plug and locked his otherwise well built rifle up. Problem is that it was a pre-panic build.

There may be some qc issues going on, but I think overall this is the sensitivity to the current market pressure wringing out the sludge. Many are lowering their standards to buy what they can afford now or what is even available. Just because the prices are inflated does not mean lesser quality components become better.

madcratebuilder
May 13, 2013, 10:46 AM
Four years ago when this happened after the first Obama election there was definitely a spike in failures. Particularly ammo


Do you think there could be a correlation between new users, many shooting gunshow reloads?

Warp
May 13, 2013, 10:59 AM
Nice game plan you've got there Warp. A man of few words who disagrees then burdens the other guy to come up with labor intensive proof while you don't to put forth effort.

Again, you know as well as I that very few of us here have the time and resources to do an exhaustive, comprehensive study across all brand names of QC and parts issues before and after Sandy Hook. If you do have the time then I'd like to see your statistics that things are as they always have been.

Game plan? Very specific claims were made, such as all of the [supposed] threads about "my bolt exploded" on ar15.com. I am asking to see them. Substantiation of a claim, especially one as cut and dry as the existence of those threads, shouldn't be difficult.

The burden of proof is on the person making the claim, you know. Do you not have ANYTHING at all that you can point to? Surely something led you to the perception that you have shared with us?

taliv
May 13, 2013, 11:06 AM
madcrate, certainly possible

Fishbed77
May 13, 2013, 11:29 AM
Do you think there could be a correlation between new users, many shooting gunshow reloads?

The correlation is definitely related in part to new users.

I think the problems arrive from simple things like failing to properly clean and lubricate new firearms, failing to re-assemble them properly, or just plain 'ol bad shooting technique, even more than using cheap ammo.

Rollis R. Karvellis
May 13, 2013, 11:40 AM
Hopefully the only people who are being stuck with a lemon were the same ones screaming for the manufacturers to build more, hire more, go faster.

Just because a company has a name does not mean that it automatically is going to be a good build. Remington has been suffering from the go fast, save a penny, mentality for a long time.

And as far as I, am concerned the Marlin 39a is the biggest POS ever built, and my examples were pre Remlin days. Yet this is the example of the perfect gun.

The point I,am try to make is be very careful about brand loyalty, because in this era of not caring about anything but having a good PR person, even the snob's can be burnt.;)

Quentin
May 13, 2013, 01:17 PM
Game plan? Very specific claims were made, such as all of the [supposed] threads about "my bolt exploded" on ar15.com. I am asking to see them. Substantiation of a claim, especially one as cut and dry as the existence of those threads, shouldn't be difficult.

The burden of proof is on the person making the claim, you know. Do you not have ANYTHING at all that you can point to? Surely something led you to the perception that you have shared with us?

I could pull up threads here and there but what good would it do? I cannot prove conclusively that quality went down among some vendors during the panic buying spree nor can you prove your claim that everything is as it was.

If we wanted to waste everyone's time we could drop in links all day but it wouldn't be a large enough sample to prove yea or nay. Unless you have access to normally undisclosed information from all AR vendors all you or I can do is state our perception of what's happened this year.

I think many vendors scrambled to find new sources for parts and some were bitten with lower quality parts. Many buyers don't shoot enough to notice the difference (which would strengthen your argument) but there still is a difference in quality. Vendors want to sell something, thus there very likely could be a lower quality source of parts and new hires assembling as fast as they can. The BCG sold by brand A in March might not be as good as what they sold in Oct.

Finally, are you saying I made claims that bolts exploded? Show me where I said that. And remember, you made a claim too but I don't see you bearing much burden. And "game plan" - yeah I see it. You force your adversary into a war of words where they waste the most time. Your turn to type.

Warp
May 13, 2013, 01:21 PM
I could pull up threads here and there but what good would it do? I cannot prove conclusively that quality went down among some vendors during the panic buying spree nor can you prove your claim that everything is as it was.

If we wanted to waste everyone's time we could drop in links all day but it wouldn't be a large enough sample to prove yea or nay. Unless you have access to normally undisclosed information from all AR vendors all you or I can do is state our perception of what's happened this year.

I think many vendors scrambled to find new sources for parts and some were bitten with lower quality parts. Many buyers don't shoot enough to notice the difference (which would strengthen you argument) but there still is a difference in quality. Vendors want to sell something, thus there very likely could be a lower quality source of parts and new hires assembling as fast as they can. The BCG sold by brand A in March might not be as good as what they sold in Oct.

Finally, are you saying I made claims that bolts exploded? Show me where I said that. And remember, you made a claim too but I don't see you bearing much burden.

Who said anything about "conclusively proving" anything? I asked what you were basing your opinion/perception/statements on, because I wanted to see for myself, and come to my own conclusion. I reckon other people would be interested for the same reason. The only reasonable conclusion I can reach from what you have given is that you pulled it out of thin air, or maybe you mis-interpreted or mis-remembered or were otherwise confused about what was going on.

A different poster said those threads existed. Some quotes/clips from that stuck in some confusing places/posts above.

Quentin
May 13, 2013, 01:50 PM
Who said anything about "conclusively proving" anything? I asked what you were basing your opinion/perception/statements on, because I wanted to see for myself, and come to my own conclusion. I reckon other people would be interested for the same reason. The only reasonable conclusion I can reach from what you have given is that you pulled it out of thin air, or maybe you mis-interpreted or mis-remembered or were otherwise confused about what was going on.

A different poster said those threads existed. Some quotes/clips from that stuck in some confusing places/posts above.


Thank you for admitting that I didn't post those threads. But I don't appreciate your insults.

You get around as much as I do and have already come to your own conclusion as have I. I was wary of buying much lately due to the issues of low supply from my favorite vendors. My only substantial recent purchase was a BCG that I described in the very first reply in this thread. Otherwise, I have to go with credible reports in the forums. Again I say credible. Well written reports that aren't likely to be misunderstood, if that does worry you.

ETA:

Apologies to the OP, I'll back out now, you certainly want others to give their opinions.

Warp
May 13, 2013, 04:30 PM
Thank you for admitting that I didn't post those threads. But I don't appreciate your insults.

You get around as much as I do and have already come to your own conclusion as have I. I was wary of buying much lately due to the issues of low supply from my favorite vendors. My only substantial recent purchase was a BCG that I described in the very first reply in this thread. Otherwise, I have to go with credible reports in the forums. Again I say credible. Well written reports that aren't likely to be misunderstood, if that does worry you.

ETA:

Apologies to the OP, I'll back out now, you certainly want others to give their opinions.

Have there been any of those?

If so, links?

Quentin
May 13, 2013, 06:01 PM
Have there been any of those?

If so, links?

Good grief, you never give up. Where are your links to corroborate your claims?


... The only reasonable conclusion I can reach from what you have given is that you pulled it out of thin air, or maybe you mis-interpreted or mis-remembered or were otherwise confused about what was going on...

Yeah, right, that's the way you treat folks who disagree with you. I've seen how you operate over the last few years. (And I bet the guy who bought a $1900 C-15 from you a couple months ago just loves you. If you got that. Hey was that C-15 the same as ones from last year?)

Anyway, maybe I do have alzheimer's. After all it has been quite a few years since Uncle Sam handed me an M16 and malaria pills and sent me out in the jungle. You ever served your country?

Again, sorry to the OP, you don't need this so I'll bow out and let the guy at the Enterprise conn have the last word. I hope others will continue your discussion.

Warp
May 13, 2013, 06:33 PM
Good grief, you never give up. Where are your links to corroborate your claims?



My links?

Here they are.

Every single link to every single post or thread I have seen indicating a drop in quality since the panic:

" "

Nothing at all to report.

Asking somebody to prove a negative. You should know better than that. lol


Yeah, right, that's the way you treat folks who disagree with you. I've seen how you operate over the last few years. (And I bet the guy who bought a $1900 C-15 from you a couple months ago just loves you. If you got that. Hey was that C-15 the same as ones from last year?)

Anyway, maybe I do have alzheimer's. After all it has been quite a few years since Uncle Sam handed me an M16 and malaria pills and sent me out in the jungle. You ever served your country?

Again, sorry to the OP, you don't need this so I'll bow out and let the guy at the Enterprise conn have the last word. I hope others will continue your discussion.

$1,900? A couple months ago? Your memory is a little fuzzy. You might want to go check your facts on that one.

BTW: The market and the buyer decide prices. I put that rifle on Gunbroker and it went for what it went for. It could have gone for more, if I'd bypassed the "buy it now" option, which artificially caps the price of the item and prevents it from going for as much as it possibly could. I do find it amusing that you are all the way to the bottom of barrel. First asking me to prove a negative, now attempting to personally attack me, in lieu of supporting your position, because I sold a rifle on Gunbroker at the height of the panic. lulz. That's a good one. No way somebody who sold a complete AR15 type rifle in January could possibly have any idea if the recently built rifles are suffering in quality compared to the ones from before. lulz.

Edit: Almost forgot...the buyer of that rifle gave me awesome A+ feedback, with a nice long explanation of why he was very happy with me as a seller. Since you seem to care.

Quentin
May 13, 2013, 08:42 PM
My links?

Here they are.

Every single link to every single post or thread I have seen indicating a drop in quality since the panic:

" "

Nothing at all to report.

Asking somebody to prove a negative. You should know better than that. lol...

Cute


...
$1,900? A couple months ago? Your memory is a little fuzzy. You might want to go check your facts on that one.

BTW: The market and the buyer decide prices. I put that rifle on Gunbroker and it went for what it went for. It could have gone for more, if I'd bypassed the "buy it now" option, which artificially caps the price of the item and prevents it from going for as much as it possibly could. I do find it amusing that you are all the way to the bottom of barrel. First asking me to prove a negative, now attempting to personally attack me, in lieu of supporting your position, because I sold a rifle on Gunbroker at the height of the panic. lulz. That's a good one. No way somebody who sold a complete AR15 type rifle in January could possibly have any idea if the recently built rifles are suffering in quality compared to the ones from before. lulz.

Edit: Almost forgot...the buyer of that rifle gave me awesome A+ feedback, with a nice long explanation of why he was very happy with me as a seller. Since you seem to care.

Fuzzy? How about this link. You asked for links, remember? Took a while to find but I remembered it. You were quick to gouge your fellow forum members. Is that The High Road? Also you initiated the attacks against two members in this thread.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=696338

For sale: One Bushmaster Carbon 15 rifle, NIB, with red dot site and one magazine.

FTF local cash sale to GA resident only. I am located in northeast metro Atlanta (think Lawrencville) .

$1,900

Warp
May 13, 2013, 08:56 PM
Cute




Fuzzy? How about this link. You asked for links, remember? Took a while to find but I remembered it. You were quick to gouge your fellow forum members. Is that The High Road? Also you initiated the attacks against two members in this thread.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=696338

It sold for $1,399 with free shipping. ;) And the buyer was very happy. :cool: But hey, it's cool that you can take the 20/20 vision of hindsight and proclaim that a transaction between two people you don't know made one unhappy, based on nothing. Based on nothing. Sounds familiar. Oh, another BTW...I opened the auction at a price that, had it sold there, would have had me LOSING money. Since you seem to care so much about that, thought you ought to know.

But hey, I guess you have a point...nobody who took the risk of selling a complete AR in late January, not knowing if it would be replaceable in the retail market in the future or not...could possibly have a clue about the quality of recently manufactured rifles vs somewhat-recently manufactured rifles.

When your argument has nothing to it, resort to random unrelated personal attacks and name calling. It's the internet after all. lulz

PS: I didn't initiate any attacks. Claims were made, I asked for verification/substantiation/links. Pretty standard operating procedure, well, pretty much everywhere. I'm sorry you are so offended by the fact that you were unable to provide them that you drug us into a page long back and forth where you try to find other, unrelated topics on which to insult me, hoping it will get us off topic and/or get the thread closed. No better way to get out of supporting statements than by dragging things helplessly off topic and/or getting a thread closed, amiright?

rdhood
May 13, 2013, 09:27 PM
After all he back and forth, I'm with Warp on this. I have been over at ar15.com a bit, and I haven't seen any marked increase of kaboom threads. A kind of a hypothesis was made by the OP concerning AR quality, someone posited that there was a bunch of kaboom threads, Warp asked for the cited threads. It coulda/shoulda ended there. Without that... or some other verifiable trend of declining quality of some kind... this thread is pretty much a pointless waste of time. So, unless someone can come up with some kind of evidence of declining quality, the answer to this thread can be summed up:


No.

Warp
May 13, 2013, 09:32 PM
I've been watching ar15.com, m4carbine.net. THR (rifle forum), and Glock Talk (rifle and black rifle forums) as well as the firearms threads/sections of some non-firearms sites, and I haven't seen anything different than usual.

Sure, companies like PSA mess things up from time to time, and have always had questions about their BCG's/Bolts (esp the ones sold stand alone and not as part of a rifle or an upper)...and then there are outfits like rguns... but it's kinda been that way all along.

Warp
May 13, 2013, 09:50 PM
I'll go ahead and tip part of my hand, since it doesn't seem that anybody else is going to bring it up:

Here is an "exploded bolt" thread from ar15.com, from February.

The bolt manufacturer in question....Joe Bob Outfitters. I don't know about you guys, but Joe Bob's isn't the place I would go looking for a quality, reliable, reputable bolt...before, during, or after the panic.

And I'm still not even sure what they were made of. Certainly not the HPT/MPI Carpenter 158 that a GOOD AR bolt should be made from.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_12/603032_Joe_Bob_s_Cera_plated_M16_BCG______.html&page=1

Quentin
May 14, 2013, 01:40 AM
I'll go ahead and tip part of my hand, since it doesn't seem that anybody else is going to bring it up:

Here is an "exploded bolt" thread from ar15.com, from February.

The bolt manufacturer in question....Joe Bob Outfitters. I don't know about you guys, but Joe Bob's isn't the place I would go looking for a quality, reliable, reputable bolt...before, during, or after the panic.

And I'm still not even sure what they were made of. Certainly not the HPT/MPI Carpenter 158 that a GOOD AR bolt should be made from.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_12/603032_Joe_Bob_s_Cera_plated_M16_BCG______.html&page=1

"Exploding bolt" and kaboom threads aren't the only indicators of a decline in quality of some AR makers. Most issues are more subtle and may not draw a complaint, especially from a panicked novice who bought an AR. Anyway, you can't prove your point nor can I since we don't have access to hard data from many manufacturers.

Oh, you never answered when I asked if you served... But you're quick to insult a vet as you preen in front of your groupies.

ETA:

gunsrfun1, I think you're wise to be concerned about AR quality right now and until things sort themselves out over time. Odds are you'll be fine with known high quality brands but we just can't be sure about every manufacturer, even many popular ones. Though it's always a good idea, I'd certainly inspect today's new ARs very carefully. Good luck with your future purchases.

Davek1977
May 14, 2013, 07:23 AM
Enough already....I've seen better manners from 3 yr olds on the playground. Sometimes, agreeing too disagree is the best option, and since I don't see you two coming towards anything resembling middle ground, and instead drifting further apart, I think we've come to such a time...on matters of opinion, theres room for more than one view. Since no one seems to be able to provide anything along the lines of actual data, you have been reduced to an argument that offers little more than "Mine's bigger than yours" when a ruler cannot be found.

Robert
May 14, 2013, 08:13 AM
Oh enough. If one is going to claim x, y or z then one needs to provide citation or examples to back up their argument. That is the correct way to make an argument. Here is the issue, here is my proof. Because I said so, or I feel, or my second cousin's friend's daughter's boyfriend overheard something at a truck stop are not valid basis for an argument.

If one is unable or unwilling to provide some kind of verifiable proof to support their position then they do not have a leg to stand on. And no I am not going to go look it up. It is not my job to make your case.

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