Double Rifle 30-06 load selection


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coyote315
May 11, 2013, 09:18 PM
Gents,
I find myself now fondling my baikal double rifle (rem stamped) in 30-06. Now I know that the venerable caliber is the jack-of-all-trades for the last 100 years+ and capable of killing anything you get within 200 yards of (at least on this side of the Atlantic). Well, this double rifle is pretty certainly a 200yard gun, so now I have to pick the right load. As near as I can figure, it is a 1:10 twist barrel set. My entry argument is that since I'm gonna be at a max range of 200 yards with it, I will go as heavy a bullet as possible and then select powders based on performance. Anyone else got thought? The 220grain hornady interlock round nose looks good.
Of course, USUALLY I select bullet based on target, but I'm pretty certain that bullet won't much care what the target is; it's the .30cal equivalent of "hulk smash."

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rcmodel
May 11, 2013, 09:26 PM
1/10 twist will handle any normal bullet weight used in a 30-06, from a 100 grain plinker, to a 220 RN.

Now, the thing is with a double rifle is?

The sights will only shoot one bullet weight to the same point of impact at 100 yards, or more.

So you need to experiment with several bullet weights to determine what bullet weight the barrels are regulated to the sights with.

My guess would be 150 to 180, but certainly not 220.

The 220 grain 30-06 bullet is just almost obsolete anymore, what with better performance out of the modern 165 - 180 grain range modern bonded construction bullets.

rc

coyote315
May 11, 2013, 09:32 PM
i "should" be able to get around the "only one bullet" because the baikal features a regulatory jack screw to put the two barrels on point. So, I could easily start at 180 and work my way down:
Question though; if bullet terminal ballistics are largely a function of mass and construction, you're saying modern construction of a 180 makes it more effective than a 220? I'm all for the biproduct of a flatter traj, so I'm listening. Have you put any into game animals you can tell me about? I've never killed game w/ a .30 cal.

rcmodel
May 11, 2013, 10:37 PM
IMO: The optimum hunting bullet weight for 30-06 is 165 grain, if you want the flattest trajectory and the highest velocity on target at long range.

Modern 165 - 180 bullets like the Nosler Partition, Barnes solid copper, and various other bonded core and interlocked bullets will out penetrate the 220 RN SP because they start out faster, get there faster, and hold together better at any range.

No, I have not personally killed any Cape Buffalo, or even a moose with a 30-06 double rifle.

I do know for a fact though, that a typical whitetail deer is edible shortly after putting a 165 though it and carting it home in the back of a pick-up truck.

rc

coyote315
May 11, 2013, 11:16 PM
I'd agree with that, even in a .308 that seems to be the optimal bullet for small game. Guess I'll just have to start playing with it.

Ah damn, now I have to shoot, and load, and test and...ah, what else is summer for :)

jmr40
May 12, 2013, 07:42 AM
If picking 1 bullet for everything in a 30-06 it would be 180's. With stoutly constructed bullets such as Nosler Partions it is good for everything in NA. With the more aerodynamic bullets with a high BC such as the Nosler Ballistic tips it shoots right with the lighter bullets. Only about 1-2" more drop at 400 yards.

The 200 and 220 gr bullets are specific only to hunting the large bear, not needed for general use. While they are a better choice for bear, a well made 180 is still going to get the job done.

The lighter 150's and 165's are really a better choice for deer/black bear and will even get the job done on elk. They recoil less and shoot a tiny bit flatter. If elk size game are as big as you'll ever hunt then 165's are a good compromise.

DM~
May 12, 2013, 10:08 AM
First thing you need to do is, do something about the awful triggers in your Baikal double... I've yet to see one with even acceptable triggers as delivered...

180's seem to be close to what they are regulated for, mine included, but like you pointed out, you can (sometimes with a quite a bit of effort) regulate them for other weights. Mine will end up being regulated for 165's...

DM

Art Eatman
May 12, 2013, 11:34 AM
Basically, whatever bullet grabs at you the most. In the '06, even the 150-grain bullet is plenty good for Bambi out to 500 yards. Helps to be able to hit him at that distance, of course. :D

BCRider
May 12, 2013, 12:05 PM
I'm curious about why you're thinking that it's limited to 200 yards? Your eyes with the iron sights? Because the 30-06 is certainly still more than enough for most game out to much farther than 200 yards.

jmr40
May 12, 2013, 12:43 PM
you're saying modern construction of a 180 makes it more effective than a 220? I'm all for the biproduct of a flatter traj, so I'm listening. Have you put any into game animals you can tell me about? I've never killed game w/ a .30 cal.

When smokeless powder was first developed it shot bullets faster than technology of the time could keep up with as far as bullet construction goes. A lighter 150 gr bullet moving very fast would often blow up on contact with larger game. The only way to get adequate penetration on really big animals was to use really heavy 200-220 gr round nose bullets.

That has all changed. Bullet technology now allows much lighter bullets to hold together at fast speeds and still give you good penetration. Today's 243 will outperform a 30-06 load from the 1920's. Energy numbers are not that important. Bullet penetration and expansion kill stuff. Many lighter faster bullets now do that better than old school heavy, large diameter bullets.

But there is no free lunch. Lighter bullets do start faster, but also slow faster. 150 gr .30 cal bullets are short and stubby. They have poor aerodynamics. The heavier round nose bullets do too. But a 180-200 gr .30 bullet with good aerodynamics will actually perform better at longer ranges. If I load 165 gr 30-06 bullets and 180's, the 165's leave the muzzle faster. But by the time they are 500 yards from the muzzle the 180 is faster, and only about 30 fps slower than a 150 gr bullet at that range. Beyond 500 yards the heavier bullets have a clear advantage. They are less effected by wind at all ranges.

Of course none of that really applies to your double rifle. Around 200 yards is going to probably be the limit with that rifle. Shoot the round that works best in your rifle.

coyote315
May 12, 2013, 12:58 PM
I'm limiting it to 200 yards because I'm keeping the iron sights (although changing the blade to a peep), and if I was hunting past that I have better scoped options. This thing is definitely a novelty to have not my primary freezer-filler. In fact i can't even use it in my home state of Indiana for deer. But, it will be fun in other states and for pig hunts and, if I ever get to go after my african dream of hyenas and baboons.
+1 on the bad triggers. I'll get that smoothed out- heavy is acceptable as long as it is smooth, but these are not (yet) smooth.

coyote315
May 12, 2013, 01:05 PM
because of the range limit, I'm thinking about bullet weight more for terminal ballistics than external ballistics especially at long range; i.e, if I'm only shooting 200 yards +/-, I might as well tune it to hit as hard as practically possible.

TCB in TN
May 12, 2013, 04:32 PM
I grew up shooting 30-06 and my Grandfather always leaned towards the bigger is better philosophy. I shot 220's as a kid, (one reason I am not recoil shy today), in the local thick woods and brush. But after growing up, and hunting hills in a neighboring county, I have learned to appreciate the accuracy advantages of smaller bullets. 150 grains where you want it, beats 220 grains 6in off target.

Of course if you are not going to use optics then IMHO there really isn't just a huge difference to me. Open sites I am going to limit my shots to the 150-200 yard range, and the 220s are close enough at that range to make just a very little difference.

groundhog34
May 12, 2013, 08:33 PM
IMO bullet weight between 150 to 185 even to 220 is not important as long as the bullet expands on impact. I would shoot different weights and bullet types to determine which is the most accurate.

Fremmer
May 12, 2013, 10:11 PM
Use whatever it shoots most accurately. Accuracy beats minor differences in ballistic performance.

coyote315
May 12, 2013, 10:14 PM
This is a sledgehammer, not a scalpel. Terminal ballistics absolutely beats a 1moa variation at 200 yards.
"see where the bullet narrowly missed the heart, but the bone spalling from the shoulder blade more than made up for the difference."

Gordon
May 12, 2013, 10:17 PM
I'll bet you lunch it was regulated with 180 bullet weight as that is the European standard for 30-06 since the 1920!:)

coyote315
May 12, 2013, 10:22 PM
then that's where I will start! Between trying to regulate the second barrel and testing the terminals, this is going to be involved enough without more variables.
Thank the Russians for the jack-screw on the 2nd barrel. More versatile, and I'm certain I will enjoy it in the future. But for now, I'll use 180 for the baseline.

DM~
May 12, 2013, 11:08 PM
The jack screw only regulates them for windage, (unlike the Valmet 412's, that regulate in both directions!) for the ones with elevation problems, you are on your own! They are fixable, but it's not a quick fix!

DM

essayons21
May 13, 2013, 01:33 AM
Basically, whatever bullet grabs at you the most.

Nowadays you may want to go with whatever bullet you can grab the most of...

Pete D.
May 13, 2013, 07:08 AM
I, too, have a DR chambered for the .30-06. I have kept the iron sights as my goto set up. The gun most definitely likes 180 grain bullets at 2700 fps.
I have tried bullet weights from 165 - my favorite loading in other rifles - to 220s. The 180s just plain shoot tighter. 54 grains of any of the 4350s.
The gun, however, is not a SXS but an O/U (Rizzini 90L Express).
http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr287/PeteDoyle/express90l_big.gif (http://s492.photobucket.com/user/PeteDoyle/media/express90l_big.gif.html)
Pete

coyote315
May 13, 2013, 07:35 AM
Thanks, pete! Beautiful gun- hopefully after enough hard work I can make the Baikal that pretty.

RPRNY
May 13, 2013, 10:10 AM
1) What do you intend to shoot with this rifle? For deer, or lower 48 black bear, shoot whatever bullet best matches up POI with POA. Almost any .308" bullet (lets start at 150 gr) reasonably matched to 30-06 velocities will kill whitetails. And most black bears harvested, contrary to internet mythology and optimistic recounting, are under 250 lbs. For bigger animals, elk, moose, larger bovines, big black bear, or brown bear, bigger bullets are better, construction and velocity being reasonably matched. If going for a larger animal other than a brown bear, I would be very interested in trying to work up a 30-40 type load for your double around the Lyman 311284 210-220 gr GC RN, @ 2200 fps and a BHN in the 12 - 15 area with 4198 or 4064 powder. The 1:10 twist is faster than one would like for lead, so you may need to go a bit harder, say BHN 18, but no harder than that. It would be an awesome 200 yard olde school load.

2) While the regulation screw does allow for a degree of windage adjustment to account for A) the fact that, at that price point, Baikal cannot accurately regulate and fix the barrels and B) variations in ammunition, the fact is that the adjustment is not such that one can move convergence (the distance at which POI for both barrels is within an optimally small separation) in and out very far. Most large bore double rifles will have convergence set at 100 yards or less. Will Baikal have set up initial regulation for the 30-06 at 200 yards? Maybe. In any event, that is the first thing I would want to determine. No sense developing a hot, flat load if you can't regulate convergence beyond 130 yards.

In any event, IMHO, a double in 30-06 cries out for a big fat lead bullet. I would slug the bore and leade and use a size that filled the leade but was not more than .002 over groove diameter. Tight fitting, well lubed lead need not be super hard to avoid leading the barrel.

Jim Watson
May 13, 2013, 07:34 PM
I have been reading about the convergence of double rifles for years and only seen logic applied once.
Ray Ordorica said HIS double does not converge but shoots parallel. (This does not mean the barrels are installed parallel, the regulation must account for differences in recoil effects from right to left.)
The muzzles are, say, an inch apart, and the individual barrel groups are centered an inch apart at any range.
Of course iron sight groups an inch apart will pretty much overlap and merge by the time you get to 200 yards.

browningguy
May 13, 2013, 07:56 PM
I'd probably select 180's also, assuming the rifle likes them. It seems a good compromise all around for the 30-06. I have one rifle that loves the heavy bullets, but one that doesn't and only gets fed 150's.

DM~
May 13, 2013, 08:40 PM
I have been reading about the convergence of double rifles for years and only seen logic applied once.
Ray Ordorica said HIS double does not converge but shoots parallel. (This does not mean the barrels are installed parallel, the regulation must account for differences in recoil effects from right to left.)
The muzzles are, say, an inch apart, and the individual barrel groups are centered an inch apart at any range.
Of course iron sight groups an inch apart will pretty much overlap and merge by the time you get to 200 yards.

Actually, they SHOULD STAY parallel no matter how far away you shoot...

That's the way all doubles SHOULD be regulated.

DM

coyote315
May 13, 2013, 10:34 PM
i wouldn't think you would inherently build in them converging, seconding the logic that displacement variation will accomplish it in the most accurate manner over a longer range. Especially in a game situation: no one really even knows if the round was +/- an inch when you get to the game; it's not like there's a 1" circle on it's hide.

RPRNY
May 23, 2013, 05:30 PM
Actually, they SHOULD STAY parallel no matter how far away you shoot...

That's the way all doubles SHOULD be regulated.


That may indeed be how you believe they SHOULD be regulated. But, alas, it is not how they ARE regulated.

http://www.gunmart.net/gun_review/krieghoff_classic_double_rifle/

http://books.google.com/books?id=lXYgo8FXUPsC&pg=PA140&lpg=PA140&dq=double+rifle+convergence&source=bl&ots=jKwCLGJkNs&sig=g0hf4de1qtsvFc6ugqt5CUe97-o&hl=en&sa=X&ei=rYmeUdzHA9Cp0AGkqIGIBQ&ved=0CGIQ6AEwBjgK#v=onepage&q=double%20rifle%20convergence&f=false

DM~
May 24, 2013, 09:27 PM
That may indeed be how you believe they SHOULD be regulated. But, alas, it is not how they ARE regulated.


It's the way mine are regulated (i own several) and it's the way the more than 20 that i have personally regulated myself got regulated.... It IS the proper way to have one regulated.

Go to one of the DR sites on line, and ask what "proper regulation" is, see what you get there for answers from those folks. Some of the DR builders will be there, like Bailey Bradshaw, Butch Searcy, and agents for Heym, Chapuis, and Verney Carron ...

You will get an education...

DM

hardluk1
May 25, 2013, 08:08 AM
You may also want to try the 180gr tsx or ttsx barnes bullet used buy many ammo companies from federal , corbon , blackhills and so on. Not many bullets can out perforrn those barnes bullets on both thin skinned and dangerous game with the same bullet.

RPRNY
May 25, 2013, 01:45 PM
It's the way mine are regulated (i own several) and it's the way the more than 20 that i have personally regulated myself got regulated.... It IS the proper way to have one regulated.

Go to one of the DR sites on line, and ask what "proper regulation" is, see what you get there for answers from those folks. Some of the DR builders will be there, like Bailey Bradshaw, Butch Searcy, and agents for Heym, Chapuis, and Verney Carron ...

You will get an education...

DM

Thanks. I am well educated with regard to dangerous game double rifles. I accept that you may have rifles otherwise regulated and that there may be manufacturers claiming such regulation is appropriate. Perhaps in a double rifle designed for deer hunting (why, I cannot imagine) such regulation is even effective. In large caliber double rifles designed for dangerous game, ie double rifles that make sense, barrels are regulated to specific convergence range with a specific load. And that's the way they should be regulated.

DM~
May 25, 2013, 04:15 PM
Thanks. I am well educated with regard to dangerous game double rifles. I accept that you may have rifles otherwise regulated and that there may be manufacturers claiming such regulation is appropriate. Perhaps in a double rifle designed for deer hunting (why, I cannot imagine) such regulation is even effective. In large caliber double rifles designed for dangerous game, ie double rifles that make sense, barrels are regulated to specific convergence range with a specific load. And that's the way they should be regulated.

I'm happy to be in the company of Butch Searcy, Heym and many other DR builders in reguard to "proper" regulation.

You of course, can regulate "your's" any way you want...

The rest of us can use out DR's at longer ranges if we want, we aren't locked into a "specific" range, and then try to guess where the bullet will go beyond that!

DM

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