My Walmart Random Time Ammo Sales


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Keb
May 11, 2013, 10:18 PM
I had suggested this twice to dept managers and then assistant manager. But Wed. I went to the top guy here.

I said stop selling the ammo to the same 6:30 AM speculators each day. They aren't your real customers.

The real customers come in any time of day. Give them a shot.

I said "make a weekly random time list. Lock it up. If ammo comes Tuesday, check the list for the time, call sporting goods, have them put it out."

THAT IS THE PROCEDURE HERE NOW!

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rcmodel
May 11, 2013, 10:21 PM
That is a fantastic idea!

But I'm not sure my local Wal-Mart manager gives a rats rear end who buys it, or when, as long as his store sells it.

Maybe I'll talk to him the next time I am there.

rc

Sam1911
May 11, 2013, 10:45 PM
Your REAL customers aren't the ones who are here every single day putting money in the register?

I get where you're coming from, but there's only so much market control I'm comfortable with.

Set the price to balance the demand. Then whomever wants it enough to pay the price can have it -- no worries about "gougers" or resellers. Just sell the product at the price the market is paying for that commodity.

Limiting boxes per customer, or only selling at odd times are artificial market manipulations. Rising and falling prices driven by variations in supply and demand are just the market at work.

Lex Luthier
May 12, 2013, 09:05 AM
Most of us do not want to be savvy, er, opportunistic business people. We just want to have a fair chance to acquire our goods and services in the usual way without resorting to fear-based selfish tactics.

I would agree that most of the reveille shoppers are there to buy at "wholesale" and then market their product their own special way. While this is not illegal, it is selfish, immature and simply greedy. Human nature is definitely showing its hand in this game.

Grateful I stocked up the last couple of years. Haven't had to buy any for the last year.

Deltaboy
May 12, 2013, 09:34 AM
Good idea in my town they do the same thing 0630 every Monday the same retires buy it up and then hord it till the next local gun show where they try and sell 330 box's for 30 dollars and 500 bricks for 50-60.

sota
May 12, 2013, 09:54 AM
this does have me as two minds about it.

all I can say is, let them horde. don't buy from them at the gun shows.

or if you REALLY want to be a ****, start taking notes of who's selling what and how much, then call your local IRS agency and report them. They're probably running afoul of some commerce law regarding buying/selling goods for a profit without collecting sales tax or reporting the income.

Drewster9mm
May 12, 2013, 11:18 AM
Keb, thats what my local Wal-Mart does also. I think its a great policy too. The manager at my store mentioned that he was tired of the same guys buying all the ammo. I think this is a good move for Wal-Mart, because they can serve a larger base of customers instead of the same small group. This might not seem ''fair" to some, but it makes the most business sense.

jeff-10
May 12, 2013, 11:39 AM
If 1000 people a week are trying to buy something delivered at 100 per weak then there will always be issues. It doesn't really matter how they put it on the shelves or how they limit the quantity that can be purchased per customer.

The ammo situation is a self induced panic buying phenomenon. It has nothing to do with any change in regulations. As far as I know Congress has not even considered a bill to reduce ammo productionor sales. Not to mention I think upset citizens are contacting their reps and the reps are now leaning on DHS to purchase less. Not that I personally believe the ammo shortage has anything to do with long term DHS contracts.

This being America, the ammo shortage will self correct by the free market and pretty soon there will be so much ammo on the market from the over supply that this will all seem laughable. You will likely also see a lot of smaller manufacturers flourish and become legit players in the small arms business. I highly suggest once the ammo situation turns around you buy in bulk, either online or at a gun shop and create a nice cushion for yourself to deal with market fluctuations. To me that seems much more appealing than running to Wal Mart or Gander Mountain everyday trying to buy 3 boxes of 9mm target rounds in late the fall of 2016.

FIVETWOSEVEN
May 12, 2013, 11:59 AM
The Walmart I currently work at stocks the ammo either when they get it off the truck or over night. It has been coming in a lot more frequently now which I'm glad to see. Usually get a few cases of .22 every week and it's been lasting longer on the shelf.

22-rimfire
May 12, 2013, 12:16 PM
I haven't been buying 22 ammunition at scalper prices. But I know there are people here that have and do because they feel they have no choice. My choice is NOT TO SHOOT often and shoot less when you do shoot.

All that is kind of a mute point to me, but psychologically I do this whether or not I need to or not. I have quite a bit of 22LR ammunition cached before this shortage took shape and became extreme.

Fivetwoseven; good to hear that your Walmart is getting larger shipments and more frequently now of 22 ammunition. I believe this "crisis" is slowly subsiding and I hope the people begin to stock up a little of each caliber they shoot in the future to keep on hand.

It is sort of like economics in general... give a poor person $1000 and they will go out and spend the "free money" immediately. The price doesn't matter because it's "free money". Give the same $1000 to a wealthier person and they will put it in the bank until they need it or use the money to take better advantage of what they feel are good investiments. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer or stay the same...

danez71
May 12, 2013, 01:05 PM
Set the price to balance the demand. Then whomever wants it enough to pay the price can have it -- no worries about "gougers" or resellers. Just sell the product at the price the market is paying for that commodity.


I'm normally on board with this but in todays ammo market, this very well could mean that the more economically stressed people wouldn't be able to afford any ammo at all.


Back in the gas rationing days.. sure, prices did go up but not nearly in the percentages of increase that we've seen in ammo prices.

The gas stations did a number of things: 10-20 gallon limits because people were filling up their tanks and numerous gas cans, odd/even days, etc. They tried to keep it accessible for every one.

If the gas station simply raised their prices 3,4,5X, it would have caused a greater problem.


I know gas is different than ammo but its just a real life example that keeping a fair price/profit and taking steps to ensure the broader population is able to get at least some of the product is better than just raising the price to the point that demand falls.

22-rimfire
May 12, 2013, 01:17 PM
I believe there are actual laws on the books of some states about scalper pricing and the gas stations were in fact the impetus for legislation during critical regional shortages.

I generally don't support price fixing or anything of that nature. People put Walmart down all the time about their power in the market place and I applaud Walmart for not raising the prices significantly on the ammunition they have available to sell. They essenitially iniciated rationing of sales to counter act human nature. But there are always ways to get around such things.

usurp31
May 12, 2013, 01:20 PM
First come, first served. I just haven't been shooting as much since ammo's been so scarce and I definitely don't go hang around WW or any store no matter how good their prices are. I did randomly go into a Wally World and they had a few things in stock so I picked up 3 boxes; though no 22lr.

Impureclient
May 12, 2013, 01:35 PM
Awesome idea. The only people who would have a problem with this are the hoarders and gougers.

loose noose
May 12, 2013, 01:57 PM
Went to a gunshow this weelend (Saturday) and noted the scalpers getting $90.00 for a brick of 500 .22LR, and $75.00 for a box of 300. Outrageous, and I let 'em know to no avail. Also they had NRA stickers all over there stand, to which I replied I doubt seriously if you are NRA affiliated. Neither of the idiots replied. Thank God I found a stash of approximately 500 rounds of .22 Mag, and about 1500 rounds of .22LR in a .30 Caliber ammo can I can stashed under my reloading bench. Hopefully all this garbage on ammo costs will subside here before long. :D

P5 Guy
May 12, 2013, 02:17 PM
WalMart, once again has become the wholesaler for ammunition.

12many
May 12, 2013, 02:21 PM
Good for you and good for your store. It is their store and in a true free market they are free to do what he H they want. If they get tired of selling it to the same hoarders every morning, they have every right to put it out when they want or to put it out at the same time at 6:00 am every morning. I am glad they put it out randomly. What we don't want is for the stores to raise the prices.

Certaindeaf
May 12, 2013, 02:29 PM
WalMart, once again has become the wholesaler for ammunition.I wonder when walmart is going to stop selling ammo.. most every other big box store has. Gotta compete with that uppity Target.. can't have the wimmen folk seeing the ammoes while buying their wading pools!

Sam1911
May 12, 2013, 02:40 PM
I'm normally on board with this but in todays ammo market, this very well could mean that the more economically stressed people wouldn't be able to afford any ammo at all.

The very basis of socialism. Those who cannot pay the price for a commodity must be provided with it at the expense (or denial of service to) others.

But it's ammo so it's ok.

444
May 12, 2013, 02:42 PM
I have thought the same thing as I read pretty much every one of these "Panic"/"Hoarder" threads.

Vern Humphrey
May 12, 2013, 02:47 PM
I said stop selling the ammo to the same 6:30 AM speculators each day. They aren't your real customers.

"Speculators?"

Fess up -- you're really Barak Oama, aren't you?:p

Impureclient
May 12, 2013, 02:57 PM
Socialism is not a bad thing. State pensions, minimum wages, progressive income tax, the 5 day week, subsidized health care and unemployment benefits are all socialism. Socialism is a great political ideology that just gets twisted into something terrible under the guidance of mans fallible nature. The people who push it down our throats and think it's the only way are the bad guys. In the United States, we are operate under elements of socialism and capitalism and it works.

Those who cannot pay the price for a commodity must be provided with it at the expense (or denial of service to) others.
Denied? Nobody is being denied of anything here. Since when is buying ammo a right? It is just Walmart being reasonable by not allowing one small group of people take advantage of the majority. Not everyone here has the time to sit around at 5 in the morning and wait to buy a box of ammo before the greedy few snatch them up to gouge and hoard.

If anything it is strongly socialist to think that we can force Walmart to put it all out in the morning and not allow them to randomly put the ammo on their shelves when they see fit. They are a privately owned and nobody should be able to tell them when, why and where they can stock their shelves. See, works both ways.

444
May 12, 2013, 03:03 PM
If they put the ammo out for sale during normal store hours and anybody who shows up with the money can buy it: that is fair.

If they start manipulating that system so that you attempt to exclude some people then the game is rigged.

If you don't want to get there when it is being sold.............too bad. To me (and I guess I am weird), this is simple common sense. If I want to sell something, whatever.........let's say a car. Some guy shows up with the money and buys it. And then some other guy calls me and says: Hey !!! I wanted that car but I was at work when you sold it, that isn't fair.........what do you think I am going to tell him ?

"If anything it is strongly socialist to think that we can force Walmart to put it all out in the morning and not allow them to randomly put the ammo on their shelves when they see fit. They are a privately owned and nobody should be able to tell them when, why and where they can stock their shelves. See, works both ways."

That's funny.
They WERE putting it out when they saw fit. This whole thread is about telling them to change what they were doing and to put it out at a different time. The OP is the one telling them when, why, and where they can stock their shelves. Walmart is just trying to run a business. If they are selling out of their merchandise, why should they care if one guy bought it all or a thousand people bought it all ?

danez71
May 12, 2013, 03:04 PM
The very basis of socialism. Those who cannot pay the price for a commodity must be provided with it at the expense (or denial of service to) others.

But it's ammo so it's ok.

While that sounds catchy.... its just not true; Particularly if you read my whole post which included 'profit' for the supplier of which socialism generally doesn't care about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

A socialist economic system would consist of a system of production and distribution organized to directly satisfy economic demands and human needs, so that goods and services would be produced directly for use instead of for private profit[5] driven by the accumulation of capital

22-rimfire
May 12, 2013, 03:06 PM
I guess when 24 hr Walmarts tape off inventory prior to Black Friday sales, that's socialism too?

Malamute
May 12, 2013, 03:13 PM
Limiting boxes per customer, or only selling at odd times are artificial market manipulations. Rising and falling prices driven by variations in supply and demand are just the market at work.



It also would seem to be artificial market manipulation to buy up available stocks to resell at higher prices. I don't believe it's exactly simple supply and demand at that point.


I enjoyed reading someones post that wanted to buy ammo and sell it on the trade sites for exactly what they paid for it just to annoy the people that price it extremely high.

444
May 12, 2013, 03:18 PM
"It also would seem to be artificial market manipulation to buy up available stocks to resell at higher prices."


That is what Walmart is doing as well as every other place that sells ammo. They buy up available stocks to resell at a higher price. That is how business works.

22-rimfire
May 12, 2013, 03:23 PM
I enjoyed reading someones post that wanted to buy ammo and sell it on the trade sites for exactly what they paid for it just to annoy the people that price it extremely high.

With a good available supply, that is really humorous and would certainly irratate some of the people trying to profit from the shortage.

There is one gun shop in my area that I am aware of that has doubled the price of their ammunition. Yep, they had quite a bit of it on the shelf... What really buged me was seeing Walmart ammo being sold there as well. They also started pricing many guns at full suggested retail price or higher. Not going to do business with them after this all blows over when I was a regular customer in the past. They probably won't notice, but I base many of my choices on ethics. I understand why they are doing it, but I don't agree with the rationale.

Vern Humphrey
May 12, 2013, 03:58 PM
Socialism is not a bad thing.

Let me guess -- you voted for Obama.:rolleyes:

Socialism is not a bad thing if you are on the receiving end. It's pure hell for the guy on the giving end -- no matter how hard he works, he never gets ahead.

Sam1911
May 12, 2013, 03:59 PM
It also would seem to be artificial market manipulation to buy up available stocks to resell at higher prices. I don't believe it's exactly simple supply and demand at that point.

Actually, what WalMart is doing is refusing to follow market trends by moving their price point upward. That is part of a strategy to get/keep people hooked on the idea that they are the smart shoppers' choice for best value, when in reality, they are selling below value (at a loss, compared to the market price) to artificially influence folks to visit their stores as loyal customers who purchase a lot more than just ammo there.

That's their right, of course, and it isn't GOVERNMENT manipulation, so again, it's ok. Because it's ammo, and some of us benefit from it, no worries.

Socialism is not a bad thing. ... In the United States, we are operate under elements of socialism and capitalism and it works.

Look, we really can't go down that track any further though. As long as we can keep this focused on ammo, it can live. If we go off on economic theory in the broader sense, it will be closed.

Those who cannot pay the price for a commodity must be provided with it at the expense (or denial of service to) others.
Denied? Nobody is being denied of anything here. Since when is buying ammo a right? It is just Walmart being reasonable by not allowing one small group of people take advantage of the majority.Someone shows up with fresh green money, product is in the store, and WM will say, "No, we aren't selling to you." I'd call that a denial. You can call it Shirley if it makes you happy.

Not everyone here has the time to sit around at 5 in the morning and wait to buy a box of ammo...Right! Just like not everyone has $100 for a brick of .22s, etc. But those who will put out the effort or expend the money should not be fettered by artificial controls that say, "oooh, none for you."

... before the greedy few snatch them up to gouge and hoard.Or shoot them, or eat them, or plant them in the garden and hope they grow? Who cares WHY they're buying? They have money, the store has product. If WalMart actually CARES that the ammo might be resold, the logical thing to do would be to set the price along the current market lines so that the incentive to resell is not there.

Of course, WalMart wants to influence people and get them hooked on the idea that they're the value choice -- even if they'll have empty shelves, or turn around and say "No ammo for YOU! ...But while you're here, why not buy a TV???"

If anything it is strongly socialist to think that we can force Walmart to put it all out in the morning and not allow them to randomly put the ammo on their shelves when they see fit. They are a privately owned and nobody should be able to tell them when, why and where they can stock their shelves.Oh, sure, there shouldn't be a law about it. If they feel that this little bit of shopper manipulation brings them more money in the end, they should go for it.

444
May 12, 2013, 04:06 PM
Hey, for what it's worth, I wish Walmart would put ammo out at random times. But not so certain people CAN'T buy it, but so I CAN buy it.

I don't hang out at a store, waiting on it to open so I can buy ammo. If I happen to be in a Walmart, I always check out the ammo supply and if they have some, then I usually buy some. But, if someone else got there ahead of me and bought it all (for whatever reason, with the intention of doing whatever he wants with it), then too bad for me.

Midwest
May 12, 2013, 05:14 PM
Maybe a better idea would to let people buy a box of ammo or two in advance and then come back and get it the next day or two when the truck comes in. Limit ammo to two boxes per customer for advance purchases.

It has to be better than waiting in line for two hours with a chance of buying something ...or going there and leaving with no hope of buying anything at all.

At least this way you know you can get a box within a day or two.

jmr40
May 12, 2013, 05:35 PM
Set the price to balance the demand. Then whomever wants it enough to pay the price can have it -- no worries about "gougers" or resellers. Just sell the product at the price the market is paying for that commodity.



If they were doing this with food, and if you were unable to be the first in line to buy it I bet you'd feel different when you got hungry enough. In fact there are laws to prevent such things with food and gasoline.

I'm for a free market as anyone, but rationing items to prevent corruption has long been accepted. All Walmarts within 50 miles of here have had slim pickings for a long time, but I've seen plenty in local gunstores.

Vern Humphrey
May 12, 2013, 05:39 PM
If they were doing this with food, and if you were unable to be the first in line to buy it I bet you'd feel different when you got hungry enough. In fact there are laws to prevent such things with food and gasoline.
And if you had committed murder, I bet you'd feel different about sending murderers to prison. Making broad, sweeping policy based on "how you'd feel" is a bad idea.

I'm for a free market as anyone, but rationing items to prevent corruption has long been accepted. All Walmarts within 50 miles of here have had slim pickings for a long time, but I've seen plenty in local gunstores.

Rationing does many things, but preventing corruption isn't one of them -- rationing creates black markets, which is the epitome of corruption.

Sam1911
May 12, 2013, 05:44 PM
If they were doing this with food, and if you were unable to be the first in line to buy it I bet you'd feel different when you got hungry enough. In fact there are laws to prevent such things with food and gasoline.Whether food and gasoline are items to which the term "gouging" can be applied, and whether socialist controls should ever be instigated to prevent some from profiting from those conditions are hotly debated concepts in various academic circles. (Not here at THR, though.)

But no one could possibly make the claim that a box or two of ammo or another gun falls into those categories of life necessities -- not under anything like existing circumstances anyway! So you're left stretching all out of joint trying to apply theories of fairness in allocating necessities, to purchases of LUXURY items. Completely discretionary items of "want" not "need."

Oh, it stinks to really want to go shoot but jeez, you can't find any ammo! But this is closer to fretting that your cable is out tonight than it is to starvation or dying from exposure.

So any such comparison is illegitimate.

I'm for a free market as anyone, but rationing items to prevent corruption has long been accepted. All Walmarts within 50 miles of here have had slim pickings for a long time, but I've seen plenty in local gunstores.Maybe that's because WalMart refuses to follow the market, and so gets picked clean -- DENYING those willing to purchase at the price the market commands, the ability to purchase ammo -- when the other local shops set the price at a level that lets them sell product consistently without going completely out of stock.

BrotherFrankie
May 12, 2013, 05:58 PM
thats like asking a restaurant not to sell all their burgers till i come in...

sounds good in theory, but what if i dont come in? and my $$ is the same..

regular relationship with a local gun shop (if they had ammo at fair price) and they put stuff aside for faithful regulars i could understand..

i dislike walmart but do shop there.. i prefer target and publix.. but they do not sell ammo..

22-rimfire
May 12, 2013, 06:02 PM
Placement of ammunition inventory on the shelves more "randomly" for purchase is a great marketing tool for Walmart. I go to Walmart weekly for the most part; sometimes several times a week. As long as they have sufficient cashiers at the registers, it is no slower than going to the local grocery store or Dollar General.

I pretty much have the same routine at Walmart... start on one side of the store and work my way to the other especially if I am going to be buying groceries. I always check the Sporting Goods area for ammunition; always. There is seldom any there any more and the more random stocking of shelves just makes me want to visit Walmart more frequently.

I refuse to go to any store at 6:30AM or when they open their doors in hope of buying some ammunition. I just won't shoot period if that is the case. I do not participate in Black Friday sales unless somebody pushes me to go with them. It is just not my way in terms of shopping.

I seldom visit Target as they sell no ammunition; maybe a couple times a year. Their groceries are generally over priced. Publix is much more expensive than Walmart in my area. So why would I bother going there?

splithoof
May 12, 2013, 06:11 PM
I was very fortunate to be well stocked long before all this crazy stuff happened; now I delight in donating ammo to those who have not been able to get any. Last week at our club there was an older gentleman with his grandson, and after meeting them I was informed that the young man was being presented with an old family treasure, but they only had fifty rounds for it. No problem, now they have some more, and had a good afternoon of shooting that old .22 from years past. Best part of it is that my son now has another shooting friend, and he got a lesson in helping others.

444
May 12, 2013, 07:13 PM
Like many people, I have gone to Walmart a couple times a month for years. 10 years, 20 years ? Who knows ?

Every time I went to Walmart, I would buy ammo. Usually a box of 550 .22 rounds. If I was shooting a lot at the time, I might buy more than one. If they didn't have .22s, I might buy a box of 100 shotgun shells. I would rarely buy pistol or rifle ammo since I reload them but once in awhile I would pick up a box of that too. Over the years, I built up a nice stock pile of ammo.

Over the last 10 years or so, we have had a number of "panics" during which ammo was very scarce. But, because I thought ahead, it didn't really effect me. FWIW: this is now referred to on internet gun boards as "hoarding" by the people who failed to prepare. And FWIW: many of them are now calling for radial measures to make up for their lack of preparedness.

Anyway, since this whole thing got rolling, I have offered ammo to many people. I have been at a range and offered to let people shoot my guns or use my ammo. A buddy of mine said he was out of 9mm, .38, and .45 bullets for reloading; so I offered him some.
None of these people would take any of it. Ammo is now considered so valuable that it was too much to ask for someone to just give them ammo. To me, it isn't that big of a deal. After all, I was prepared for this eventuality.

JVaughn
May 12, 2013, 07:28 PM
Let's face it Sam and others, while we all differ on whether or not it is gouging, I think we can all agree that the 630 AM guys in line at WalMart every morning are not our friends, they are part of the problem. I don't want the government or WalMart implementing rules or laws or policies to defeat them, but I do want them to go away. I feel the same about panhandlers who aren't really disabled, they are disgusting bottom feeders taking advantage of society. They are cheating the system, and not paying taxes while doing so.

Constrictor
May 12, 2013, 07:36 PM
Let's face it Sam and others, while we all differ on whether or not it is gouging, I think we can all agree that the 630 AM guys in line at WalMart every morning are not our friends, they are part of the problem. I don't want the government or WalMart implementing rules or laws or policies to defeat them, but I do want them to go away. I feel the same about panhandlers who aren't really disabled, they are disgusting bottom feeders taking advantage of society. They are cheating the system, and not paying taxes while doing so.
Noun 1. price gouging - pricing above the market price when no alternative retailer is available
pricing - the evaluation of something in terms of its price

This is what my dictionary says about gouging so it isn't even up for discussion. there is no gouging going on.

Sam1911
May 12, 2013, 07:37 PM
Eh, whatever. I see folks who recognize an opportunity to put some money in the bank and who are driven enough to get themselves up in the morning and take it. They aren't my friends, but they aren't my enemy, either.

If the commodity is being regularly sold at $99 a brick, then that is the market price.

If I buy the .22 ammo from them at $99 a brick, or I buy it at $99 a brick from WalMart, what difference does that make? If the market price is $99 a brick, why do I care where my money went? I can be annoyed that I didn't "score" some at sub-market prices before someone else got there, but I can't really be mad that the market price is what it is.

(Whether they pay their taxes really isn't any of my business.)

Vern Humphrey
May 12, 2013, 07:39 PM
Let's face it Sam and others, while we all differ on whether or not it is gouging, I think we can all agree that the 630 AM guys in line at WalMart every morning are not our friends
Why are they not our friends? What did they ever do to us?

Just because they're willing to get there early while we slugabeds are just punching the alarm clock off doesn't make them bad people.

danez71
May 12, 2013, 09:47 PM
It also would seem to be artificial market manipulation to buy up available stocks to resell at higher prices.


That is what Walmart is doing as well as every other place that sells ammo. They buy up available stocks to resell at a higher price. That is how business works.

Now that something to think about.....

I didn't know those guys on craigslist and at private party tables at the gun shows that are selling ammo at ++% of retail pricing had a license to buy wholesale and sell retail and were doing me a favor.

I just thought they were buying as much ammo as possible leaving nothing on retail shelves, thus creating a perceived massive shortage, to in turn sell it "re-retail" and adding another layer of mark-up that was not needed or desired by the market consumer while maximizing their profit by not adhering to any of the costs and overhead that a legitimate retail business has nor paying any of the taxes a legitimate business pays on the sale of said ammo.


It all make sense now. :what:

tyeo098
May 12, 2013, 09:54 PM
My walmart puts ammo out at ~630p.

Dinner time.

22-rimfire
May 12, 2013, 10:05 PM
If I buy the .22 ammo from them at $99 a brick, or I buy it at $99 a brick from WalMart, what difference does that make? If the market price is $99 a brick, why do I care where my money went? I can be annoyed that I didn't "score" some at sub-market prices before someone else got there, but I can't really be mad that the market price is what it is.

The thing is this really isn't the market price. They are taking advantage of a situation like selling bottled water for say $10 when it cost them $0.10. People need it, so their only option is to pay the price or I guess drill a well.

It's complicated really as to the right and wrong of things.... if there is a shortage of AR's, the price goes up and the $800 AR becomes valued at $3000 or whatever. That's okay I guess? Buy low and sell high sort of thing. This happened with full auto guns as a political situation resulted in cutting the supply lines. Is this fair? I have mixed feelings about it really.

Is it really any different with collector firearms... why is a Colt Python worth $2000 or a Colt Diamondback worth $1500?

I am sort of making an argument for both points of view, so I have really mixed feelings about this topic.

Now that something to think about.....

I didn't know those guys on craigslist and at private party tables at the gun shows that are selling ammo at ++% of retail pricing had a license to buy wholesale and sell retail and were doing me a favor.

I just thought they were buying as much ammo as possible leaving nothing on retail shelves, thus creating a perceived massive shortage, to in turn sell it "re-retail" and adding another layer of mark-up that was not needed or desired by the market consumer while maximizing their profit by not adhering to any of the costs and overhead that a legitimate retail business has nor paying any of the taxes a legitimate business pays on the sale of said ammo.


It all make sense now. :what:
Yes, that pretty much is my view as well. If I provide a service with limited competition, capitalism would suggest that I can charge any price I want for that service until there is more competition to force me to lower my prices. But I would see that as taking advantage of a circumstance that the customer has no control over and I question the ethics of that approach to business. A good example is Bill Gates. I guess the big industrialists built their fortunes by providing a product or service with limited competition. Then they get older and start giving to charities and everyone applauds their philanthrophy. Guess I'll never be rich as I don't have the gonads to take advantgae of people intentionally.

I guess a lot of people view ammunition as sort of like drinking water if they are shooters. They can't shoot or in the case of water, they can't get a drink. The difference of course is that you choose to be a shooter and the human body requires water or it will die.

gspn
May 13, 2013, 12:14 AM
...

gspn
May 13, 2013, 12:17 AM
If 1000 people a week are trying to buy something delivered at 100 per weak then there will always be issues. It doesn't really matter how they put it on the shelves or how they limit the quantity that can be purchased per customer.

The ammo situation is a self induced panic buying phenomenon. It has nothing to do with any change in regulations. As far as I know Congress has not even considered a bill to reduce ammo productionor sales. Not to mention I think upset citizens are contacting their reps and the reps are now leaning on DHS to purchase less. Not that I personally believe the ammo shortage has anything to do with long term DHS contracts.

This being America, the ammo shortage will self correct by the free market and pretty soon there will be so much ammo on the market from the over supply that this will all seem laughable. You will likely also see a lot of smaller manufacturers flourish and become legit players in the small arms business. I highly suggest once the ammo situation turns around you buy in bulk, either online or at a gun shop and create a nice cushion for yourself to deal with market fluctuations. To me that seems much more appealing than running to Wal Mart or Gander Mountain everyday trying to buy 3 boxes of 9mm target rounds in late the fall of 2016.
I think that might be the best post ive read on this topic since the great panic began.

basicblur
May 13, 2013, 12:24 AM
Socialism is a great political ideology that just gets twisted into something terrible under the guidance of mans fallible nature.
You know what they say:
Socialism is man's exploitation of his fellow man.
Capitalism is the exact opposite. :D

BTW - a few tales I heard on Tom Gresham's Gun Talk today that help explain part of the reason for the ammo shortage:
1. Fellow bought a thousand primers - 'course, he doesn't shoot, so he definitely ain't reloading!
2. Another fellow bought a thousand 10mm brass casings - he doesn't own a 10mm, and at the time has no plans to buy one!

Coming from manufacturing (and seeing what has taken place over the years), I'm sure Just In Time inventory doesn't help one bit, although at this point, JIT is probably out of the picture.

Sam1911
May 13, 2013, 05:45 AM
Coming from manufacturing (and seeing what has taken place over the years), I'm sure Just In Time inventory doesn't help one bit, although at this point, JIT is probably out of the picture.As I've said before/elsewhere, no realistic amount of warehoused ammo held by local gun shops, or even WalMart, before the panic would have made more than a few day's difference in filling the tide of demand that rose after Sandy Hook. So blaming JIT inventory practices is like saying your 500 acre corn crop died because you didn't keep a bucket of water on hand to irrigate with.

And, JIT inventory is the single largest reason places like WalMart can charge the low prices they do. We can rail against it, but we sure are glad 99.99% of the time not to have to pay for massive warehouse space and millions of tons of inventory sitting around costing the company money.

herkyguy
May 13, 2013, 09:41 AM
it actually could work for Walmart in the capitalism sense. here's how i see it:

I don't go to Walmart anymore for ammo. period. it's never there. my wife and i stopped yesterday for some groceries and i swung by the ammo counter just for the heck of it. the gun guy tells me 10 guys stood in line this morning when ammo showed up....10 boxes of 550 rds of .22LR. first three guys in line all bought the max of 3 boxes, guy number 4 gets 1 box, and the rest get nothing.

so, if Walmart varied the times, people like myself might actually go looking for ammo with improved chances of finding it. and while i'm there i'd probably pick up a few other things. it may draw in more people through the door because of the improved probability. that makes good business sense to me.

lastly, the gun guy said the guys who bought the ammo are reselling it......the madness continues.

basicblur
May 13, 2013, 09:49 AM
if Walmart varied the times...
Heck - why don't they handle it like they do everything else in the store?

You know...one day they just up and decide to move everything.

As I explained to my daughter, in one of my old classes (don't remember which one), it was explained that companies often just pick the whole store up and give it a good shake in order to move everything.

The reason given was they don't want shoppers (like myself) to come in, go directly to what they want, and leave.

By rearranging the store from time to time, they hope you'll make impulse purchases in your quest to find where they moved your favorite product this week.

Ya wonder why they don't use ammo like Easter Eggs around the store!? :rolleyes:

trapper1
May 13, 2013, 10:18 AM
I went into our local WM yesterday, to grab some bugspray. I walked by the ammo counter, and seen a newly posted sign. 1 box per day, 3 box limit per week, per customer. The shelves were still bare. :rolleyes:

I do see BG bids on .22 LR falling a bit each week though. A couple months ago, it was holding steady at $100+ for a brick. Seems the rates now down in the $60's range.

X-Rap
May 13, 2013, 10:23 AM
I think it's a good idea for WalMart to shake up stocking times to disrupt the ammo privateers.
It sure as heck isn't socialism when customers complain to the management on a matter and they listen.
If the gov told them how to sell their ammo it would be a different story.
At a gunshow this weekend the ammo cartel was in retreat on prices and there was way to much ammo laying around to be paying those high prices. I can't tell if we are over the hump or if folks in that neck of the woods just had a better stash but over a couple days prices dropped in some cases by 1/2.

Arkansas Paul
May 13, 2013, 10:31 AM
I agree with the above poster that it isn't socialism when a store decides to listen to it's customer base. However, Wal-Mart doesn't care about anything but profit. They don't care who buys it, as long as someone does. To them, selling out fast is a good thing.

Sam1911
May 13, 2013, 10:39 AM
I agree with the above poster that it isn't socialism when a store decides to listen to it's customer base. Certainly so. The IDEA of distributing product to every person regardless of their ability or willingness to pay the market price or expend the effort to do what it takes to get it is the basis of socialism. Not the choice of a retailer to manipulate their sales to suck more folks into the store!

However, Wal-Mart doesn't care about anything but profit. They don't care who buys it, as long as someone does. To them, selling out fast is a good thing.Like I said before, no, they don't want to sell out to one guy in the first transaction. They want to lure people in with the hope that ammo will be there. Kind of like the lottery. The more folks who will report that they won a box or three in the "WalMart ammo lottery" the more of their friends and neighbors will come on down to play the game ... and maybe buy some toilet paper or a new TV...

Money in their pocket if they can keep you rolling the dice!

Impureclient
May 13, 2013, 11:53 AM
I played the "WalMart ammo lottery" and all I got was this lousy toilet paper.

Certaindeaf
May 13, 2013, 11:59 AM
I played the "WalMart ammo lottery" and all I got was this lousy toilet paper.
If it's lemony fresh, you could probably flip it on toilet broker.

12many
May 13, 2013, 12:13 PM
Sam, seems like you feel strongly about this topic.

It would follow then that you are also against limiting the number of boxes sold. So, an energetic early riser could come in and buy the entire lot of ammo. Everything on the sheves. Some would consider this good for walmart because with one large transaction they make $ and then the clerk is free to help others or do other tasks. Were I only selling ammo and did not want to raise prices, that is what I would do.

As I posted above, I think WM should get to do what ever they want. It is their store. I would bet they want as much foot traffic through the store to obtain more secondary purchases. Better for profits to sell 20 people 50$ worth of stuff each then to sell 1 guy 200$ worth of ammo in one sale. That is how they make money, on volume.

Apart from economics and there is human element to it, IMO. The clerks/managers probably get tired or selling to a couple people in the morning and then either catching heck from everyone else the rest of the day or telling some dad that they don't have ammo (again) so the dad and son can not go shooting.

It is interesting to see all the different opinions and how stores react and which sellersare successful and which will not be successful (short and long term). Also interesting to see how we determine market price. That price point can vary alot from place to place, time to time, and buyer to buyer.

Certaindeaf
May 13, 2013, 12:44 PM
I remember the gas shortage of the 70's. I used to pull up with my tanker truck and resell it to the needy peons.. those were good times!

X-Rap
May 13, 2013, 01:03 PM
Now it is a capitalist marketing conspiracy???
Wal Mart like gov has plenty of faults and wrongs without inventing conspiracys. If the same were happening with food or gas many would be rioting in the streets wanting gov to intervene.
Wal Mart, Cabelas, Sportsmans Warehouse, your ma and pa that are connected all get regular shipments and most I have seen are rationing their sales, if they scramble up their stocking times that's just a bonus to those shopping for retail priced ammo.
From talking to some on both sides I have come to learn that some retailers believe that their customers will have long memories and keep prices down and supply spread out. The real scalpers don't seem to give a dam but they are the ones who are selling online or at shows and flea markets so it is to be expected.
I have sold a few guns and given ammo away with them and sold 22 to families with some kids who need to shoot.
I saw a neighbor looking for 22's to keep his boy in gopher shooting ammo and told him I'd give him a brick if he would replace it when he could.
It will take quite a while for the shelves to be fully stocked because many post panic buyers will have learned something and will keep a few thousand at hand.

Sam1911
May 13, 2013, 01:04 PM
Sam, seems like you feel strongly about this topic. :)

Funny, though. I haven't bought a single round of loaded ammo in at least a year, though my last such purchase probably was .22 LR from WalMart.

I've never sold any ammo, either. So you could say I don't have a dog in the fight.

However, I do find retail strategies and logistics interesting, and also think that ammo sales can be quite a good metaphor for broader economic theories and realities. When ammo gets scarce, what things come out about folks' economic philosophies when their own shooting joy is on the line? And what would we do, or wish stores to do, to avoid having to pay the price dictated by supply and demand? What limitations on someone's ability to purchase what they want are we willing to accept so that we can purchase what WE want, right now, and for whatever price we think it "should" be, and vice versa.

And what are large retailers doing to play with their customers and "set the hook" and how far will we go to ignore that if it feels like it's in our best interest?

Fascinating stuff!

12many
May 13, 2013, 01:12 PM
Yes, it is interesting. I had been trying to compare this to the Hunt brothers and silver, but on a smaller scale.

For example, in a small or medium sized city could a few people buy up all the cheap ammo often enough to create a shortage and then somehow resell it to the same community at a higher price. There would have to be constant demand and a limited supply. The online aspect helps stop that from happening but if there are not other sources maybe it could happen. Maybe this is happening with some LGS in small towns. I don't know.

I think supply is coming back though. I don't know what we are all going to talk about then. Maybe there will be an 'range report' with pictures. Have not seen one of those for awhile. I love seeing pictures of people out shooting.

Sam1911
May 13, 2013, 01:16 PM
Yup, a return to a level state and "normalized" supply/demand curve is almost inevitable within a few months to a year at the outside. (Maybe not at exactly the same price points as before, but not too far off.) So all this is MUCH angst over a temporary situation.

Certaindeaf
May 13, 2013, 01:21 PM
When it came to a gold mine or strike, it was the man with a mule/wagon that struck it rich.. re-selling.
It's all about time, place and form. Sometimes they got strangled though.

Impureclient
May 13, 2013, 01:27 PM
In times like this we should all think to ourselves WWCTDD or what would Cheaper than dirt do?
CTD of course would do the most wrong thing and we should do the exact opposite of what CTD would do.

Cheaper than Dirt would be the first one in line in the early morning to buy up all the ammo that has no purchase limits. Forget about all the others because this is about what CTD needs and that is the #1 goal, to put CTD first.
Then CTD would resell it at 3X-5X more than what they got it for because they live in a capitalist society and that is all fine and dandy.

Remember this goes for everything we do in life. If you are driving down the road from work and see some elderly woman off in the shoulder with a flat tire, think WWCTDD.
CTD would keep driving by because CTD had more important things to do like go home and watch TV. Actually CTD would probably stop and offer to help the woman in exchange for whatever cash she had on her.
Therefore you do the exact opposite and stop to give her assistance because you are not a bozo trying to take advantage of another human that's in distress or just hoping to get a box of .22LR.

This is not just a sappy made up analogy I am giving here for effect. If I see a woman with their hood up or flat tire I stop and offer help. Most of the time somebody is already on their way to help them, they thank you and then you are on your way. Just yesterday Sunday afternoon I chased down a guy with a flat tire going out of my way to tell him before he went onto rim. He gave me a thumbs up as though he knew and shortly after pulled into his driveway. It's not that hard to help others most of the time. Walmart very well may be changing their buying limits or times to obtain their ultimate goal which is more profit but in the end it is actually helping fellow shooters.

Moral of story: When it comes to ammo, people get very greedy. Take the Highroad and try to to be Mr.CTD greedy pants.

Sam1911
May 13, 2013, 01:49 PM
Good point! Find someone with ammo for sale on Gun Broker, pay the going rate, and give it to someone who can't afford to pay that much.

Or, go out to WalMart at 6:00 am, stand in line, and buy your 3 boxes. Then go give them to someone who doesn't feel like getting up so early, or who doesn't want to take the hours off work to do that.

Charity for one's fellow man is a beautiful thing!

gspn
May 13, 2013, 01:58 PM
I played the "WalMart ammo lottery" and all I got was this lousy toilet paper.
I think you did good. I need toilet paper EVERY DAY. Ammo usage on the other hand is totally discretionary.

nelsonal
May 13, 2013, 02:05 PM
Impureclient,
The whole point of a market based system is that prices are information, by holding them steady and limiting purchases the information doesn't rapidly flow to the producers to invest in new supply, to hoarders that now is the time to realize profits, or to buyers to stop buying because you're no longer the highest value user.

By limiting purchases, bullets become essentially $20 bills laying on the ground "freely" able to be picked up by anyone (even those without interest in their final use) because anyone can benefit via near arbitrage profits. Allocation simply shifts profits from manufacturers to those who have low opportunity costs (ie those who are least inconvenienced by being at walmart when product is likely to be available) the harder it is, the more likely that housewives and students or others who aren't paid to be somewhere else, camp out at the sporting goods counter to buy for resale.

If all sellers ramped up prices in the manner CTD did, the demand information travels back to manufacturers more rapidly, resulting in a manufacturer scramble to boost production due to the increased profits available, and arbitragers would have no interest in participating in the market (because no profits were available) or many end users would forgo shooting for a short while until the increase in demand was either filled or abated. Thus the "crisis" would end more quickly.

12many
May 13, 2013, 02:10 PM
Does anyone know if manufactures have raised prices or are their prices generally same (subject to raw material fluctuations).

Does CCI realize the high demand and low supply and then charge Acadamy, Walmart, or Midway more now or at the time of the next contract? Or is it business as usual for them.

Just wondering.

I think S&W raised the prices on their AR recenlty. Don't know why.

PabloJ
May 13, 2013, 02:12 PM
Glad Walmart does not carry 10x25 ammo. Went to Walmart and got the following: bottled water, condensed milk, water purification pills, candles, toilet paper, batteries, canned food. Life is grand.

nelsonal
May 13, 2013, 02:16 PM
12many,
Without access to distributor invoices, I/m not sure. Winchester's parent talks about increased unit revenue (ie higher prices) that rose coming mostly because the product favored higher priced sporting channels rather than police/government channels (which are generally at lower prices). That suggests they haven't increased prices dramatically (and is why they aren't investing in production increases even as simple as delaying a previously planned factory closing).

Impureclient
May 13, 2013, 02:38 PM
give it to someone who can't afford to pay that much

Already did that a couple weeks back. Actually they could afford it though. It was just there was no .22 available for them to buy so I gave them a brick for nothing.
I also let them use a couple of my .22 handguns and 9mm also. Of course the 9mms came with a couple of boxes of ammo too as the range was charging double what I paid for what I have. Helping out my fellow man, or woman and kid in this case.

Arkansas Paul
May 13, 2013, 02:43 PM
So all this is MUCH angst over a temporary situation.

This. It will be back. People who don't believe that deserve to pay high prices.

I also think it's a great idea to help folks out that can't buy ammo, especially youngsters. I don't have a massive .22 stockpile, but I'm doing pretty good. A guy I know bought a new Ruger 22/45 and has no ammo for it and can't find any. I gave him a couple 50 round boxes. It wasn't much, only cost a few dollars, but he was grateful and gets to try out his new toy. Doing good things will come back to you. I've learned that.

Deaf Smith
May 13, 2013, 03:45 PM
I head they stock at 6:30 AM or so on Mondays and scalpers come and buy it up so...

Today I went there at 6:30 AM. Sure enough some old men had a stool and sat there for quite a while till they brought in the ammo and they bought it up.

And that is why you see NONE on the shelves.

So how to fix this?

Well first off it is free enterprise for them to buy and sell for a profit. After all this is America.

BUT, being America you don't have to buy your groceries or goods from Wal-Mart, right?

So you guys notice on your ticket now and then they have wal-marts web site and a chance to win a shopping spree by answering a questionnaire online?

Well take it up and get online and answer it. Near then end they always as for 'improvements' in service.

Mention the scalping and let them know if they don't start stocking at NOON, yes mid-day, and limit buyers, then you will take your business elsewhere.

See each questionnaire is for the very store you shop in (it's on the ticket) and you are letting management know how upsetting this is to you.

Do this and after a while if no changes, go to another store and just before you do that answer another ticket's questionnaire and let them know you are leaving and why.

Deaf

Constrictor
May 13, 2013, 04:03 PM
I find it hard to believe there are any scalpers at wall mart. Waiting for hours in line to get the possibility to buy 3 boxes total does not seem like a profitable venture to me. Probably just regular guys like yourself that want to go shooting.

Ashcons
May 13, 2013, 04:13 PM
Well...if Walmart isn't going to bump their prices to the equilibrium point, then I'm fine with them changing their selling policies. The micro-economics of ammo sales at WM during a temporary spike in demand isn't driven by a capitalistic free market right now. What will eventually happen, using the past as our assumption for future activity is the demand will eventually bring supplies back up to where WM's prices are at their estimated equilibrium point again.

After going through all of this in 2008, I'm happy that I stocked up from 2009 - 2012, but haven't had time to go shooting in the past year. :(

nelsonal
May 13, 2013, 04:19 PM
At least around here, the scalper just watches, but upon stock arriving, they have a network of family/friends who collectively buy (a married couple and small extended family only needs one watcher but could easily buy a full case of ammo with 3 box limits several cases with 3 box/caliber limits).

j1
May 13, 2013, 04:20 PM
I have never bought ammo to resell, but I would like a couple of bricks of 22 long rifle to put through my10 22. I miss the good old hi cap mags days rapid fire. The new prices have been stppoing me almost as much as the unavailability.:)

Constrictor
May 13, 2013, 04:22 PM
At least around here, the scalper just watches, but upon stock arriving, they have a network of family/friends who collectively buy (a married couple and small extended family only needs one watcher but could easily buy a full case of ammo with 3 box limits several cases with 3 box/caliber limits).
Wow that seems even less likely. How much time wasted for the scalper himself to wait for hours, but multiple people have nothing to do but wait hours to maybe get 3 boxes of ammo?

nelsonal
May 13, 2013, 04:42 PM
The others aren't waiting, they're going about their day, they come when called that the observed store has demanded product in stock. Dick's is predictable in that new stock is almost always there when the store opens only, so it's not like the whole clan is milling around the store all the time. There are a large number of Americans who have very low opportunity costs to be somewhere when called, and the markup on .22lr/9mm etc exceeds that pretty dramatically.

Constrictor
May 13, 2013, 04:44 PM
The others aren't waiting, they're going about their day, they come when called that the observed store has demanded product in stock. Dick's is predictable in that new stock is almost always there when the store opens only, so it's not like the whole clan is milling around the store all the time. There are a large number of Americans who have very low opportunity costs to be somewhere when called, and the markup on .22lr/9mm etc exceeds that pretty dramatically.
im sorry i am extremely dubious. by the time he paid these other bodies it just wouldnt be worth it unless possibly getting large bulk packs.
sounds too much like a conspiracy.

Arkansas Paul
May 13, 2013, 04:58 PM
I find it hard to believe there are any scalpers at wall mart. Waiting for hours in line to get the possibility to buy 3 boxes total does not seem like a profitable venture to me.

The Wal Mart here said that they were scalping, that's why they went to the 3 box rule, to stop it.
Don't know how accurate it is, but it's what the 17 year old kid with acne and the Justin Beaver haircut behind the sporting goods counter said, so it must be true.

xxjumbojimboxx
May 13, 2013, 05:01 PM
Its not liek the stuff wont sell out within hours anyways.. Seems to me to be a better way of making sure everyone has a fair shake.

Potatohead
May 13, 2013, 05:05 PM
u should run for office. good work

Potatohead
May 13, 2013, 05:16 PM
Socialism is not a bad thing

it dont work

we can force Walmart to put it all out in the morning and not allow them to randomly put the ammo on their shelves when they see fit. They are a privately owned and nobody should be able to tell them when, why and where they can stock their shelves.

nobody made them

Potatohead
May 13, 2013, 05:17 PM
this is a fun read. me like this thread

Potatohead
May 13, 2013, 05:20 PM
preach it vern

Potatohead
May 13, 2013, 05:22 PM
Let me guess -- you voted for Obama.:rolleyes:

Socialism is not a bad thing if you are on the receiving end. It's pure hell for the guy on the giving end -- no matter how hard he works, he never gets ahead.
to be fair,i think he was saying its not bad if its done right. either way, it ends bad if you ax me

Potatohead
May 13, 2013, 05:34 PM
If it's lemony fresh, you could probably flip it on toilet broker.
thats hilarious

Keb
May 13, 2013, 05:49 PM
As the original poster, I want to say thanks for making this interesting.

Yes, Walmart will still book the same total sales each day.

Think about this...say a duo team scores 6 of the 550 boxes for $20 out the door. Then sells at, what, $70 each. That is a $300 profit.

Skipping your work three days a week, or being late will not improve your job security, will it? But in my little scheme, if you stop at Wallyword at lunch or after work, you now have a chance. The cost to make those 22s didn't jump, so I give Walmart a lot of credit for not price gouging. But this is why the hoarders descended on the stores at 6AM.

I am a free market capitalist, one of few survivors of being in direct competition with hishonor Bloomberg in the finance software business. Retired since 1989, my favorite hobby is controlling big prairie dogs here on western ranches....with my various 22LR rifles. I have been trying to get one or two of you guys to come shoot here....if you bring your own darn bricks.

Constrictor
May 13, 2013, 05:53 PM
I'm sure there are tons of scalpers, I just doubt they are a big problem at wal mart right now.
I've already shot most of a case (5000) .22 in bullseye this year.

clutch
May 13, 2013, 06:26 PM
Walmart is selling ammo at fair market. Be glad. I scored a box of automatch Thursday, I left two boxes I could have also bought on the shelf for someone else.

A husband and wife grabbed 600 rounds of 9mm. Not much love for other shooters. Don't blame walmart.

USMC8541
May 13, 2013, 06:53 PM
Let them buy It's a free market. Supply will eventually catch up and prices will drop

JRH6856
May 13, 2013, 07:35 PM
Socialism is not a bad thing.

Actually, it can be a very good thing...until you run out of other people's money.

danez71
May 13, 2013, 07:55 PM
Like I said before, no, they don't want to sell out to one guy in the first transaction. They want to lure people in with the hope that ammo will be there. Kind of like the lottery. The more folks who will report that they won a box or three in the "WalMart ammo lottery" the more of their friends and neighbors will come on down to play the game ... and maybe buy some toilet paper or a new TV...


IMO, all the ore reason to vary the times its put on the shelf.... so that hopefully the same 6 guys don't keep getting it all. The more 'winner' the more the winning story is told.

Ben86
May 13, 2013, 07:57 PM
My walmart has the unloaders bring it out whenever the truck gets finished at night. So the time is random, which is good because it discourages loitering. Lol

The three box limit was done to keep a larger number of people somewhat happy instead of just a few very happy. It keeps one guy from clearing off a shelf.

The prices have not gone way up because they deal in high volume-low mark up sales by nature and are still making a killing. Although the mark ups are often 50% or more. They also don't want bad PR that would cost them customer loyalty. They like being the shining beacon that has not succumb to price gouging.

Constrictor
May 13, 2013, 08:00 PM
Wal mart could not price gouge if they wanted to. Impossible!

3 MEN AND A BOAT
May 13, 2013, 08:53 PM
I believe they should start only selling ammo to people with another in store minimum purchase, stop those that are only running in and buying ammo every morning. Their's an argument to be made that their ammo prices are like a "loss leader"

lionking
May 13, 2013, 09:41 PM
quote; "I know there are people here that have and do because they feel they have no choice"

This what I don't get , the mindset of some firearm enthusiasts. We NEED water, we NEED food, we may even need fuel.

But nobody NEEDS to go shooting, and yes I am one who loves to shoot. For most of us, it is but a hobby/passion. Yet some act like addicts paying anything to get their fix.

If people would just stop buying for a while all this would go away. Right now those who pay $1 a rd for .223 or $50 for a brick of .22 are being used. And in that, the rest of us suffer also.

Scalpers or horders or flippers or whatever you call them don't want this to end, they are doubling even tripling their money off your fear.

shafter
May 13, 2013, 10:39 PM
I find it hard to believe there are any scalpers at wall mart. Waiting for hours in line to get the possibility to buy 3 boxes total does not seem like a profitable venture to me. Probably just regular guys like yourself that want to go shooting.

Yep, there isn't any profit in it especially after standing in line for hours.

Certaindeaf
May 13, 2013, 10:48 PM
Yep, there isn't any profit in it especially after standing in line for hours.
I think you could make good use of your time standing in line.. like lining up flipping deals on your smartphone.

Deaf Smith
May 13, 2013, 10:59 PM
If you are out of work or retired you might have plenty of time to sit there gabbing with your friends and family waiting for the ammo.

Deaf

X-Rap
May 13, 2013, 11:41 PM
If you are out of work or retired you might have plenty of time to sit there gabbing with your friends and family waiting for the ammo.

And that is what is happening.
The big retail stores are selling at market prices, the 100 dollar bricks are artificial spurred by those buying in excess that are not consumers but simply moving the product at venues that people can reach on their time like gun shows and FTF transaction. I ran into a guy this weekend who along with his wife did the WM shuffle and even double dipped until the shelves were bare by taking their 6 boxes out and returning and doing it again with another clerk.
Add a quota of powder and primers plus repacking 100 rd packs of pistol ammo into 50 rd boxes and it's probably not a bad haul if you can pull it off 3-4 times a week.

Impureclient
May 14, 2013, 12:33 AM
The silver lining to all this is the ones who do this are probably making decent extra cash off this ammo scheme to help along with the foodstamps they receive.
That or they're supplementing their monthly social security checks. I mean, who else has time to sit around and wait for ammo at the crack of dawn
besides the jobless or retired folks?

basicblur
May 14, 2013, 01:03 AM
Hey, I'm retired and I spend way too much time in Walmart - it seems I go in at least every other day for groceries.

I always pass by the ammo case - it's been over two months since I've seen any handgun ammo (or 223) in the case. As often as I'm in there, I figure somebody must be intercepting the shipments before they make it to the case.

Tonight I asked the gal how long it had been since she'd seen any 22LR - she said three weeks (it's been two years? since I've seen it on the shelves).
I asked her if they had folks showing up for the trucks to unload (as some say in here), and she said they did.

I guess that's why I haven't seen anything on the shelves in over two months.

Just bought a couple of 22 ARs, so I would like to grab a few extra bricks of Federal 22LR - fortunately, I've got a decent inventory so it will be a while before things get desperate on the ammo front here.

Every time I hear of another miscreant on TV that had an "arsenal" of 1000 rounds, I just pull my head in like a turtle and shuffle away from the TV... :rolleyes:

xxjumbojimboxx
May 14, 2013, 01:04 AM
Im not going to lie. I had 10 boxes of winchester .22 555 rds. I sold them all for 50 dollars a peice... people thanked me because most folks are trying to pul 65-75 around here. Yes I got that ammo in a trade... No, I didnt pay much for it at all when it happened. But at the same time, You cant hate me for selling it. If i didnt get that price, i wouldnt have sold it in the first place. Also I'm adding more ammo that was already in existance then the newly made ammo thats flying off the shelves. So techincally im slowing the process down a bit :) I certainly dont have time to stand in line and wait for new stuff to come out. I'm a busy guy ya know :)

Constrictor
May 14, 2013, 03:21 AM
So wall mart is getting 22 every 3 weeks. ThT seriously cuts down the profit of the waiters.

skeptical_in_Ohio
May 14, 2013, 04:02 AM
I'm normally on board with this but in todays ammo market, this very well could mean that the more economically stressed people wouldn't be able to afford any ammo at all.

This is debatable at best. Sticker price is only part of the cost of purchasing something. There's the opportunity cost of multiple fruitless trips, or waiting in line to compete with the hoarders/speculators.

Sam1911
May 14, 2013, 06:05 AM
I'm normally on board with this but in todays ammo market, this very well could mean that the more economically stressed people wouldn't be able to afford any ammo at all.I think a great many of us would consider ourselves at least somewhat "economically stressed" these days. If the big tragedy we face is that we can't scrape up the spare cash to buy a brick of .22s right now?

Yeah that would be on of those "First World" problems folks talk about. :rolleyes:

Is our sense of entitlement so great in the USA that we are OWED cheap plinking ammo as well as a cell phone and health care and an education?

http://wiego.org/informal-economy/occupational-groups/waste-pickers
http://www.africanwellfund.org/EducationalKit08.pdf
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/06/20/12313643-15-million-children-in-imminent-danger-of-starvation-in-west-africa?lite

Meh. I'll spend a little bit of my modest 1st world salary to buy ammo at the going rate and I don't think I'll complain about it too much.

larryh1108
May 14, 2013, 08:03 AM
As has been said many times before, as long as people pay the inflated prices to the scalpers, the scalpers will continue to clean out the shelves at WM. Once we start to see ammo on the shelves on a regualr basis, the scalpers will lose their market and things will return to normal. The scalpers aren't the ones causing these shortages, it's the people who pay 3x retail for their ammo. As long as there is the demand for over-priced ammo, there will be people trying to accomodate them.

j1
May 14, 2013, 02:58 PM
So much excitement in a capitalistic system. Buy low sell high. Works well with stocks and bonds, why NOT with ammo?

Vern Humphrey
May 14, 2013, 03:04 PM
I don't understand it either -- the people who are complaining would never blink an eye selling their homes (as someone else mentioned) at prices much higher than they paid for them. They would invest in the stock market with the expectation of selling at a higher price than they bought in.

Certaindeaf
May 14, 2013, 03:06 PM
So much excitement in a capitalistic system. Buy low sell high. Works well with stocks and bonds, why NOT with ammo?
The not part is what this thread is about.. the random times etc.

breakingcontact
May 14, 2013, 03:18 PM
People need to stop feeding the flippers. Who is buying from these jokers?

Vern Humphrey
May 14, 2013, 03:22 PM
Great point. I brought that up in a debate on gas prices -- "If you think the oil companies are gouging, stop buying from them."

Certaindeaf
May 14, 2013, 03:30 PM
Great point. I brought that up in a debate on gas prices -- "If you think the oil companies are gouging, stop buying from them."
That's pretty lame. Gas gougers do what the ammo flippers are doing.. re-sell from a common/main source.

j1
May 14, 2013, 04:09 PM
I have not yet gotten to the point of buying high priced ammo, but who knows. My days of hi cap mags for my 10 22 seem to be a thing of the past. Shame as I used to enjoy it.:)

Arizona_Mike
May 14, 2013, 05:42 PM
I had suggested this twice to dept managers and then assistant manager. But Wed. I went to the top guy here.

I said stop selling the ammo to the same 6:30 AM speculators each day. They aren't your real customers.

The real customers come in any time of day. Give them a shot.

I said "make a weekly random time list. Lock it up. If ammo comes Tuesday, check the list for the time, call sporting goods, have them put it out."

THAT IS THE PROCEDURE HERE NOW!
I disagree with you completely. Let those for whom the ammo is dearest get the most of it. It might also help you to wake up early. Look at all the really nice cars on the road at 6:00 or 6:30 compared to the cars you see on the road at 7:00 or 8:00 (or God forbid later).

Rationing limits are also nonsense. Someone just stocking up might be deterred by the market price but someone attending a shooting competition the next day or going on a hunt may not. The seller gets value from the sale and the buyer for whom it is worth most gets the most value from the purchase. The total benefit to society is maximized that way.

Put down the Marx and read some Bastiat (http://bastiat.org/en/twisatwins.html). It'll do you some good and sooth your nerves while waiting for the ammo bubble to burst. That's when you should BUY!

Mike

basicblur
May 14, 2013, 05:49 PM
So wall mart is getting 22 every 3 weeks.
If that's in reference to my earlier post (counter gal said it had been 3 weeks since she'd seen any), you can't assume they come in every 3 weeks.

That's just how long it had been since she had seen any - that may have been the first shipment in X months, or she may not have been there when some came in, etc.
I have no idea how often our local store gets ammo.

I checked the empty shelf today - Federal 22LR 550 bricks (what I'm looking for) is marked $21.97, and that breaks my heart!
I think I paid around $15 for the last identical brick from 'em.

444
May 14, 2013, 07:05 PM
"People need to stop feeding the flippers. Who is buying from these jokers?"


People are buying from them of their own free will. They agree to pay whatever the price is again, of their own free will. It's their money, they can spend it as they please.

Where do any of us get off saying they shouldn't ?

lionking
May 14, 2013, 07:28 PM
quote" People are buying from them of their own free will. They agree to pay whatever the price is again, of their own free will. It's their money, they can spend it as they please.

Where do any of us get off saying they shouldn't ?"


I think we have plenty of right to state our opinions and try to persuade them not to. They are being persuaded by fear so why not us persuade them into common sense so this madness comes to end sooner.

I have seen fear promoted by some in the gun industry from the flippers on gunbroker, to the dealer at a gunshow to cheaper than dirt who all exclaim "their comin' for your guns, get it now while you can" for the nice markup of double or triple.

And the statement about oil companies (just don't buy gas from them then) , that isn't a good analogy. Fuel is hardly a free market item when fuel companies or OPEC or government limit producing to control prices and fuel is a necessity for survival so you have no choice but to bend over and take it if you want to heat your home or get to work and the economy depends on fuel, while ammo so you can go plinking or target shooting IS NOT.

So since having bulk amounts of ammo is not a necessity to life , I have to ask why people feel compelled to buy it at a inflated price when if they only stopped for a while the price would go down to former prices.

danez71
May 14, 2013, 08:08 PM
I think a great many of us would consider ourselves at least somewhat "economically stressed" these days. If the big tragedy we face is that we can't scrape up the spare cash to buy a brick of .22s right now?

Yeah that would be on of those "First World" problems folks talk about.

Is our sense of entitlement so great in the USA that we are OWED cheap plinking ammo as well as a cell phone and health care and an education?


In all fairness... lets not give a reply that twists what I said.

I was referring to staggering the times of stocking shelves to possibly hinder people buying up all of the consumer retail supply so that they can 're-retail' at much higher prices and the effects that could have on less $$ fortunate people.

I made no insinuations that I believe that 'cheap ammo is owed to me'.


That's pretty lame. Gas gougers do what the ammo flippers are doing.. re-sell from a common/main source.

Nope.. you're totally wrong about that.

Gas gougers...besides the fact they havent been reported on a national level as ammo gougers have been.... buy whole-sale and sell retail.

Ammo gougers buy at consumer retail sources and then resell again to consumer.

Sam1911
May 14, 2013, 08:25 PM
In all fairness... lets not give a reply that twists what I said.Didn't intend to. Just quoted you.

I was referring to staggering the times of stocking shelves to possibly hinder people buying up all of the consumer retail supply so that they can 're-retail' at much higher prices and the effects that could have on less $$ fortunate people.Ok, but what about the wonderful effect it has on the truly less fortunate and the fixed-income (retired) folks who now have a small extra revenue stream because they can spend their unemployed time to buy low priced ammo to re-sell it? That's pretty nice for them! I mean, if they've got the gumption to get up in the morning, and the patience to wait for a few boxes of ammo each day, and the smarts to find an outlet to sell it at the upper end of the market, WOW, that's pretty entrepreneurial of them! And they can thank WalMart for the opportunity to put a little needed cash into their budget.

I made no insinuations that I believe that 'cheap ammo is owed to me'.Ok.

Ammo gougers buy at consumer retail sources and then resell again to consumer.And the only reason they can do that is that WalMart (for their own entirely SELFISH reasons ;)) refuses to sell at or near the current market price.

If WalMart would charge a "reasonable" price, they could balance that price against the demand until those forces equalize. Then we wouldn't have to worry about "gougers" and "flippers."

But those poor folks who are un- or under employed wouldn't be able to make a dime, which would be sad for them.

Ben86
May 14, 2013, 08:31 PM
I saw a promising thing the other day. A man in line to buy some .22 ammo, who could have bought the last two boxes, offered one to the man behind him who graciously accepted.

This is the kind of thoughtful behavior that will help things calm down.

22-rimfire
May 14, 2013, 08:32 PM
Walmart prices their ammo competitively for normal times and it is based on what they pay for it. They have not resorted to the greedy take-advantage behavior that so many other stores/shops do. They make their money. I give them a lot of money monthly as a matter of fact. Frankly, I spend more at Walmart monthly than all other stores combined.

danez71
May 14, 2013, 08:49 PM
Didn't intend to. Just quoted you.

Your quote of me was fine... it was your reply that took things in a different direction.

Ok, but what about the wonderful effect it has on the truly less fortunate and the fixed-income (retired) folks.... (snip)

1st of all.... they should count their blessing of having a fixed income. Mine can go away at any moment.


.... who now have a small extra revenue stream because they can spend their unemployed time to buy low priced ammo to re-sell it? That's pretty nice for them!

So my tax dollars are subsidizing people and gives them a gaurenteed income so that they can buy retail and then sell it re-retail. That's something to cheer about? Them doing something illegal is great! Sell for profit with out a business license... evade taxes!! I should be cheering :barf:


I mean, if they've got the gumption to get up in the morning, and the patience to wait for a few boxes of ammo each day, and the smarts to find an outlet to sell it at the upper end of the market, WOW, that's pretty entrepreneurial of them!

Under that scenario, again, my tax dollars is what allows them the opportunity to get up early with out needing to go to work and scalp ammo. That's another win-win! :barf:

And they can thank WalMart for the opportunity to put a little needed cash into their budget.

They should be thanking all of us social security contributors; not Walmart.


And the only reason they can do that is that WalMart (for their own entirely SELFISH reasons ;)) refuses to sell at or near the current market price.

That's Walmart's decision. There are other places that haven't significantly risen prices just as Walmart. You speak as if there isn't and the scalper pricing IS the market price. But its not.

I'm no Walmart defender but at least Walmart is playing by the re-sale rules of business license, paying taxes etc.


If WalMart would charge a "reasonable" price, they could balance that price against the demand until those forces equalize. Then we wouldn't have to worry about "gougers" and "flippers."

Whos definition of 'reasonable' are you using? There not loosing money on ammo. They just aren't charging what the scalpers are.


But those poor folks who are un- or under employed wouldn't be able to make a dime, which would be sad for them.

Not really. They're doing something illegal. Reselling with out a business license and not paying taxes. Not very high road but oddly endorsed by you.

It also hurts the demographic of those who cant pay those artificially inflated prices... and there is arguably a correlation of that demographic and the higher crime rate of the geographic area they live in.

nelsonal
May 14, 2013, 09:04 PM
Whos definition of 'reasonable' are you using? There not loosing money on ammo. They just aren't charging what the scalpers are.

Not really. They're doing something illegal. Reselling with out a business license and not paying taxes. Not very high road but oddly endorsed by you.

It also hurts the demographic of those who cant pay those artificially inflated prices... and there is arguably a correlation of that demographic and the higher crime rate of the geographic area they live in.

I won't speak for Sam but business licenses are just a modest form of rent seeking (basically limiting competition by making it marginally more difficult to enter business). I'd be surprised if he weren't against them, as well.

Also, the whole point of a market system is to allocate a good to those who value it most. It's pretty ruthless in that regard, unfortunately those who aren't productive enough to pay higher prices are one group that's not in the higher value users.

Also, reasonable is the price at which sellers sell out but not so quickly they can't restock. The market price for ammo today is much closer to C-T-D prices. Everyone charging less, is giving a large gift to anyone who buys (those gifts are captured by those with low opportunity costs) whether intended to be shot (more than they would at market prices) or resold.

Sam1911
May 14, 2013, 09:30 PM
Ok, but what about the wonderful effect it has on the truly less fortunate and the fixed-income (retired) folks.... (snip)
1st of all.... they should count their blessing of having a fixed income. Mine can go away at any moment. Well, if it does, maybe you can mosey on down to WalMart first thing in the morning... :D Always good to have a "Plan B!"

.... who now have a small extra revenue stream because they can spend their unemployed time to buy low priced ammo to re-sell it? That's pretty nice for them!
So my tax dollars are subsidizing people and gives them a gaurenteed income so that they can buy retail and then sell it re-retail. That's something to cheer about? Them doing something illegal is great! Sell for profit with out a business license... evade taxes!! I should be cheering You're making several assumptions there. None of which are necessarily true at all.

I mean, if they've got the gumption to get up in the morning, and the patience to wait for a few boxes of ammo each day, and the smarts to find an outlet to sell it at the upper end of the market, WOW, that's pretty entrepreneurial of them!
Under that scenario, again, my tax dollars is what allows them the opportunity to get up early with out needing to go to work and scalp ammo. That's another win-win! You don't know they're on assistance. They could be on a pension or just supplementing an income that they work hard to bring in, just like you! Stop projecting your bitter assumptions on these folks.

That's Walmart's decision. There are other places that haven't significantly risen prices just as Walmart. You speak as if there isn't and the scalper pricing IS the market price. But its not. LOL. If someone's paying a price for a commodity, that is indeed one factor in the MARKET PRICE. What do you think sets the market price? The Federal Ammo Price Fairness Committee?

I buy for $99, you buy for $19, the market price reflects both. If I bought from a high priced "gouger" (because I had the cash and wanted the ammo now) and you bought from a store practicing "loss leader" sales (because you had the time but didn't want to spend more money), neither is exactly reflective of the average market price that second, but both contribute because both influence what the next person will pay.

If WalMart would charge a "reasonable" price, they could balance that price against the demand until those forces equalize. Then we wouldn't have to worry about "gougers" and "flippers."
Whos definition of 'reasonable' are you using? There not loosing money on ammo. They just aren't charging what the scalpers are.
Certainly so. They have their own money-making reasons for charging what they do. (Has to do with their image and sucking in customers.) Who cares whether they're losing money? There are no ethics involved. You don't get to decide that it isn't "fair" that someone makes 100% profit instead of 10%. Or that someone bought low and sold high. All that matters is what someone will sell for and what someone will buy for. Don't like it? Don't pay the higher price. By not paying the higher price you are actually working to lower the market price!

But those poor folks who are un- or under employed wouldn't be able to make a dime, which would be sad for them.
Not really. They're doing something illegal. Reselling with out a business license and not paying taxes. Not very high road but oddly endorsed by you.LOL. You don't have ANY basis for saying that. You have no proof of any of the allegations you're making, just your own suppositions. That's not very High Road of you!

Heck, I know for a fact (because it has been reported here!) that some of those "scalpers" are local gun shops who go to WalMart and buy ammo to resell off their own shelves at higher prices. Guess what? They have a business license and they pay their taxes. Not a thing in the world illegal about it! How 'bout that? :D

It also hurts the demographic of those who cant pay those artificially inflated prices... and there is arguably a correlation of that demographic and the higher crime rate of the geographic area they live in.So...you're actually proposing that there's a significant correlation between people not being able to buy cheap ammo and increased CRIME RATES? Holy stretch, Armstrong!

This kind of statement is indicative of why I, perhaps improperly, suggested you felt that there was some compelling social necessity that cheap ammo be made available to the masses.

Certaindeaf
May 14, 2013, 09:49 PM
Hey Sam, I know it's possible but perhaps more difficult, but when you are responding to fifteen people in one post in a thread with 130 posts, it's difficult following who you are responding to with the above format.

Sam1911
May 14, 2013, 09:51 PM
Better? I added a name that time. Honestly, in long threads like this, I rarely even notice who, exactly, I'm responding to! :) Just free form discussion and exchange of ideas.

But, yeah, that can be hard to follow! :o

danez71
May 14, 2013, 10:15 PM
You're making several assumptions there. None of which are necessarily true at all.


You, me, and most everyone is this thread is making assumptions. The OP had a half dozen assumptions and none of them are necessarily true.


You don't know they're on assistance. They could be on a pension or just supplementing an income that they work hard to bring in, just like you! Stop projecting your bitter assumptions on these folks.

Nor do you know that they are retired or un or under employed when you brought them up.
I have no bitterness toward retirees... all of my living parents are retirees collecting SS. And yes, Ive told them the same thing... they're lucky to have a 'fixed' income.


LOL. If someone's paying a price for a commodity, that is indeed one factor in the MARKET PRICE. What do you think sets the market price? The Federal Ammo Price Fairness Committee?


Correct... but you've been portraying the scalper pricing as market price; not "one factor in the market price"



LOL. You don't have ANY basis for saying that. You have no proof of any of the allegations you're making, just your own suppositions.

LOL...Nor do you have any basis for claiming these little poor old people are just being entrepreneurs and supplementing their 'fixed' income.( Which wouldn't be 'fixed' at the point anymore but that's another thread.)


So...you're actually proposing that there's a significant correlation between people not being able to buy cheap ammo and increased CRIME RATES? Holy stretch, Armstrong!

See now.... There you go again. I didn't say they couldn't buy cheap ammo. I infurred that they couldn't buy expensive ammo. ;-) And I certainly didn't infur anything to do with cheap ammo (or lack there of) and crime rates. Essentially I said some people that cant afford overly and artificially inflated ammo prices are living in areas with high crime.


This kind of statement is indicative of why I, perhaps improperly, suggested you felt that there was some compelling social necessity that cheap ammo be made available to the masses.

Well when you read into it things that aren't there... I can see why you improperly suggested that.


Plainly put... family living in the ghetto that clears $50 a month beyond expenses used to be able to afford a box of ammo to be able to protect their family. Now, due to the scalpers, they might not be able to.


My initial post included the gas shortage comparison. The gas stations stopped allowing people to buy extra gas in gas cans and took other measures too. There was a 'run' on gas. Had they not taken some of those steps, the family only clearing an extra $50 wouldn't have be able to afford to buy gas to get to work.


Since this thread is nothing but assumptions, and apparently only yours count the most, maybe its time to shut this one down.

:rolleyes:

Bruno2
May 14, 2013, 10:24 PM
If they are drawing social security then that means they paid into it just like the rest of us.

CZguy
May 14, 2013, 11:25 PM
And the statement about oil companies (just don't buy gas from them then) , that isn't a good analogy. Fuel is hardly a free market item when fuel companies or OPEC or government limit producing to control prices and fuel is a necessity for survival so you have no choice but to bend over and take it if you want to heat your home or get to work and the economy depends on fuel, while ammo so you can go plinking or target shooting IS NOT.


I don't think that gasoline is necessary for survival. It's a heck of a nice convenience though.

Queen_of_Thunder
May 15, 2013, 10:14 AM
I agree with the above poster that it isn't socialism when a store decides to listen to it's customer base. However, Wal-Mart doesn't care about anything but profit. They don't care who buys it, as long as someone does. To them, selling out fast is a good thing.
What a customer base of one or two crybabies to lazy to work for the ammo they need.

X-Rap
May 15, 2013, 10:48 AM
WalMart seems to be the main topic here but they are far from the only ones who are still holding prices at what could be called pre panic levels. I'm sure there are many reasons, my LGS's believe people will remember and punish those who took advantage of a situation, for large retailers it's probably more about keeping a margin above their wholesale cost. Wholesale cost is the key to the difference between gouging and retailing. There is more wholesale ammo going to retail than ever before but some are tapping into the false market of the panic and conspiracy. I am not currently in the market but if I was, me or someone I know would be in line for the delivery and pay the standard price.
On a side note it might be a surprise but even TV personalities are caught in this, I saw Tred Barta pay $75 for a brick of 22 ammo this last weekend and he was none to happy about it either.

Vern Humphrey
May 15, 2013, 12:20 PM
That's pretty lame. Gas gougers do what the ammo flippers are doing.. re-sell from a common/main source.
They can't re-sell if you won't buy. It takes two to tango!

Arkansas Paul
May 15, 2013, 01:18 PM
What a customer base of one or two crybabies to lazy to work for the ammo they need.

No. I was saying it wouldn't be if a customer base actually wanted something. Not just one or two crybabies. It was aimed at people who called a company doing things for the benefit of many customers socialism. It's not. It's the freedom of a company to decide what policies it will adopt. If the government started mandating that things be done that way, it would be.
I personally don't give a rat's derierre. I have plenty of ammo and components.

Vern Humphrey
May 15, 2013, 02:01 PM
No. I was saying it wouldn't be if a customer base actually wanted something. Not just one or two crybabies. It was aimed at people who called a company doing things for the benefit of many customers socialism. It's not. It's the freedom of a company to decide what policies it will adopt. If the government started mandating that things be done that way, it would be.
I personally don't give a rat's derierre. I have plenty of ammo and components.
The question is, would the proposal benefit customers or not? Do any significant number of customers prefer this to first-come, first served?

Certaindeaf
May 15, 2013, 02:12 PM
It's pretty crazy that walmart doesn't charge $100/500 for .22lr. They'd make more money and not have to dick around with limits or times. But they don't, hence the vultures.

Arkansas Paul
May 15, 2013, 02:43 PM
The question is, would the proposal benefit customers or not? Do any significant number of customers prefer this to first-come, first served?

Probably not.
I was just making a point as to whether or not it was socialism. It seems like any time someone doesn't like something that's the go to word to label it.

larryh1108
May 15, 2013, 04:01 PM
If Walmart didn't care if one guy bought out their entire shipment, as some say, they wouldn't impose limits. Why fix something that isn't broke?

However, when I did buy ammo (pre-reloading), I would stop by Walmart once or twice a week to see if anything was available that was cheap and what I needed. I usually went for the CCI Minimags and bought 100-200 each visit. If 9mm WWB was on sale, I'd pick up a box or 2 and the same for the other calibers I used. As we all know, the ammo is in the back of the store so I'd have to walk past their mass merchandising displays of whatever. Many times I'd see a good deal on something and pick it up. I'd also pick up some odds and ends in the grocery section as well. I'd even get my oil changed every 3 months and bought my tires there too. I did this because I was in Walmart to get ammo.

When I started to reload, my trips became less and less. I still wanted the .22LR but that's about it but it still got me there about once a month. I always went there for my household items when I needed something and always checked the ammo case while I was there. Cheap 9mm ammo is always a good thing to have if it's on sale even if you reload. There was usually a good supply except for the "shortages" so I always knew that I could find what I needed when I needed it.

When the shelves were empty in '08 and then again these past 6 months, I don't even bother to go there any more because the shelves are always empty of the .22LR CCI I want. The other day I went to a quick oil change place for the first time because I knew Walmart had no ammo I wanted. About once a month, these last 6 months, I stop in to check the ammo only and it's always empty so I just leave with nothing else. So, this ammo shortage has cost Walmart a lot of my money the last 6 months. I've found other places for my other needs and I still have .22LRs from my frequent visits over the years.

Walmart wants every customer to be able to buy ammo if that's why they came there. They lose money when we stop checking because it's always empty. Why bother going there if there is nothing to buy? Impulse sales don't occur when you aren't in the store. Walmart cannot be happy at all about the scroungers who take it all for their own reasons and leave empty shelves for the rest. It costs them a lot of money.

22-rimfire
May 15, 2013, 09:04 PM
Larryh1108: Pretty good post on Walmart.

However, when I did buy ammo (pre-reloading), I would stop by Walmart once or twice a week to see if anything was available that was cheap and what I needed. I usually went for the CCI Minimags and bought 100-200 each visit. If 9mm WWB was on sale, I'd pick up a box or 2 and the same for the other calibers I used. As we all know, the ammo is in the back of the store so I'd have to walk past their mass merchandising displays of whatever. Many times I'd see a good deal on something and pick it up. I'd also pick up some odds and ends in the grocery section as well. I'd even get my oil changed every 3 months and bought my tires there too. I did this because I was in Walmart to get ammo.

This is why the superstores exist. I am a regular Walmart customer. I make no bones about it. As I mentioned above, I spend more money at Walmart monthly than all the other stores combined. They must be doing something right.

You comment about ammunition being present is part of the reason that some gun shops charge really high prices on ammunition. One I frequent does. I won't and don't pay their "market price". If all their ammunition shelves were empty, they would likely get fewer customers coming in to "look around". They'd just not bother.

Sam, you can buy all the $99 bulk packs you like. It's a free country, I think? That's important actually. I personally just wouldn't shoot. If those became the "regular" retail price on 22 ammo, I would stop shooting any 22 ammo once I got down to a relatively low inventory level. For the anti's... mission accomplished.

Sam1911
May 16, 2013, 07:00 AM
Sam, you can buy all the $99 bulk packs you like. It's a free country, I think?Well, thanks!

I personally just wouldn't shoot. If those became the "regular" retail price on 22 ammo, I would stop shooting any 22 ammo once I got down to a relatively low inventory level.But as we're saying over and over, if folks stop buying the ammo because the price is so high, demand drops, and so the price then falls. As we're starting to see happen already. We don't really have much of a concern that the prices for ammo are going up to $99/brick of .22s in the long term. Maybe $20 or $25, sure -- a small increase over last year, but even that I think is unlikely.

For the anti's... mission accomplished.No, no it isn't! If SO MANY PEOPLE are willing to pay SO MUCH MONEY to shoot that the price rises to $99 for a brick of .22s and stays there??? What does that say about the values of the American people and the investment/commitment of the American gun owner? If that was to happen, the anti's will have even more cause to weep because folks will be voting with their wallets that guns and shooting are so important to them!

22-rimfire
May 16, 2013, 08:31 PM
In case anyone is wondering, I buy two dominant promo 22LR ammunition brands at Walmart; Federal Lightning/Champion (#510B, or #510 outside Walmart), and CCI HV LR. I get most of the other stuff via online shopping or the occasional visit to Champion's Choice near Nashville, Sportsman Warehouse, or Bass Pro. I seldom buy bulk packs, but I do keep 10 or 15 usually for family outings. Seldom use them.

I always tend to defend Walmart for ammunition, but they are not my dominant source.

Sam, Good point about my "anti statement" regarding ammunition availability versus cost.

TennJed
May 16, 2013, 08:34 PM
I think the government should take over all ammo manufacturing and distribution. Even it out to each citizen. This could work in other areas like income. Think of it as a social form of government. One where everyone is equal and everything is fair.

22-rimfire
May 16, 2013, 08:35 PM
Few things are actually "fair" relative to government social programs. I hope you jest.

TennJed
May 16, 2013, 08:42 PM
Few things are actually "fair" relative to government social programs. I hope you jest.
why do you think I am jesting ;). It is not fair that other people have something that I do not and I am not willing to do what they do or pay what they pay to get it.

Certaindeaf
May 16, 2013, 08:46 PM
Well at least you can park your trailer there. pretty good times

Deaf Smith
May 16, 2013, 10:17 PM
I think the government should take over all ammo manufacturing and distribution. Even it out to each citizen. This could work in other areas like income. Think of it as a social form of government. One where everyone is equal and everything is fair.

You have got to be kidding? I hope you are!

The same government that sics the IRS on groups they dislike? The same government that leaves people do die in Libya as the plead for help? The same government that gets all the phone records on rivals? The same government that gave us Obamacare?

See in South America countries they do things like nationalize industries, with predictable shortages, shoddy produces, and lots of red tape.

The government, ANY government, by definition is a parasite. Maybe a necessary one but still a parasite. And parasites should have only the minimal power needed to serve their function, for power corrupts.

So they surely don't need to nationalize the ammo industry!

Deaf

CZguy
May 16, 2013, 10:54 PM
I think the government should take over all ammo manufacturing and distribution. Even it out to each citizen. This could work in other areas like income. Think of it as a social form of government. One where everyone is equal and everything is fair.

I sure wish that you would clarify this. If I take what you said literally......I'm speechless.

If you're joking please use one of these so that we can tell. :D

TennJed
May 16, 2013, 11:07 PM
I sure wish that you would clarify this. If I take what you said literally......I'm speechless.

If you're joking please use one of these so that we can tell. :D

Oh would socialism be a bad thing? I have read so many post on here complaining about price gouging and other people getting ammo, I am getting confused.

Yes I am joking, I don't like socialism and I don't get upset when someone is willing to do or pay something I am not. It is no wonder Obama got elected though, his ideals are very popular among the shooting crowd

TennJed
May 16, 2013, 11:32 PM
I want to add this also. Isn't have guns and ammo hard to find a good thing in this modern world? First off the companies making the product are undoubtedly making more money. That in itself is a good thing. More money for them means more innovation and more ability to produce in the future. Also it shows that the America population is arming itself. Not a bad thing.

I know the middle men are making the profits off the price increase. But when a gun or ammo company can sell all it produces we will eventually reap the rewards. Have the previous shortages not benefited us? Seems like we have a lot more options now than ever before. This is not because the manufacturers are strapped for cash. Sit back, wait it out. We are getting stronger

Sam1911
May 17, 2013, 07:27 AM
:)

[All of us, in previous years:] "Golly, I sure do wish lots more people would become gun owners and enjoy shooting and maybe they'd be more inclined to fight against gun control..."

(Fast forward to 2013...)

"Holy CRAP! All these new shooters are buying up all the guns and ammo and I can't find .22s at WalMart! Dang em!"

As Frank Drebin said, "The hand's on the other foot, now!" :)

Queen_of_Thunder
May 17, 2013, 08:05 AM
Well its 0554 and I'm second in line at my Academy.

j1
May 19, 2013, 01:46 PM
Don't you know that communism never worked? If what you say were true there is noreason for me to work or earn money. Just have to get in line for my ammo, every day.

Vern Humphrey
May 19, 2013, 05:14 PM
It depends on what you mean by "worked." For the ruling classes, Communism worked very well -- they had special houses, food, cars, you name it.

For the ordinary people, of course, Communism is a living hell.

Zbigniew Brzezinski (Carter's National Security Advisor) was right when he said, "Communism is the greatest calamity to overtake the human race."

Agsalaska
May 19, 2013, 05:17 PM
Oh would socialism be a bad thing? I have read so many post on here complaining about price gouging and other people getting ammo, I am getting confused.

Yes I am joking, I don't like socialism and I don't get upset when someone is willing to do or pay something I am not. It is no wonder Obama got elected though, his ideals are very popular among the shooting crowd
Thats funny Jed. And I totally agree with you. I had no idea either until I found this board and the shortages started. It is no wonder for sure.

X-Rap
May 21, 2013, 08:40 PM
I just found out this weekend that there is an app that will tell you the ammo inventory of the WalMart of your choice. Saves waiting in line you can just check all the area stores and go to the ones reporting ammo in inventory.

basicblur
May 21, 2013, 09:31 PM
Ran across the guy that used to work ammo in Walmart today - I've been buying from him for years (before any of the ammo shortages) as I had a habit over the last 20 or more years of just swinging by the ammo case after grocery shopping to see what was on sale.

He says our local store does not put ammo out at all hours, as is done with other sporting goods arrivals. They wait for the department manager to arrive at 7am before they bring it out and put it on the shelves.

He said they did have folks waiting almost every morning @ 7am for it to hit the shelves.

CZguy
May 21, 2013, 09:54 PM
I just found out this weekend that there is an app that will tell you the ammo inventory of the WalMart of your choice. Saves waiting in line you can just check all the area stores and go to the ones reporting ammo in inventory.


Wow, that would be great. Could you PM me with info about the app.

Ben86
June 19, 2013, 07:45 PM
But as we're saying over and over, if folks stop buying the ammo because the price is so high, demand drops, and so the price then falls. As we're starting to see happen already.

Yes, thankfully things are starting to calm down a bit. This shortage has sent quite a message to the controlists though.

Vern Humphrey
June 19, 2013, 09:08 PM
Yup -- I just scored an 8-lb keg of Varget.:D

22-rimfire
June 19, 2013, 09:31 PM
I visited a Walmart earlier thiis week and was suprised to see Winchester 40 S&W on the shelf. I believe they had 15 boxes or so. I bought one. The guy behind the counter kind of raised an eyebrow when I said "one". They also had a box of 44 mag which a guy purchased while I was chatting. No 22LR. Mostly just traditional rifle ammo (270, 243 and so forth).

Vern Humphrey
June 19, 2013, 09:40 PM
And I know where there's a Wal Mart with .30-40 Krag in stock -- but my lips are sealed.:neener:

Queen_of_Thunder
June 20, 2013, 09:01 AM
And I know where there's a Wal Mart with .30-40 Krag in stock -- but my lips are sealed.:neener:
Under $2 a round?

Vern Humphrey
June 20, 2013, 11:48 AM
Under $2 a round?
yup.

rodregier
June 20, 2013, 12:18 PM
Random time ammunition sales - the new loss leader :-)

I have a suspicion that folks visiting a retail establish not solely to purchase ammunition for resale are more likely to also purchase something else. That is underlying concept behind loss-leader product sales in general. The neat part is that no discounting of the ammunition loss-leader itself is required. The promise of it's mere presence is the draw.

Advertising the enforced randomness would enhance that effect.

Certaindeaf
June 20, 2013, 12:33 PM
Uphill both ways. wah

Orion8472
June 20, 2013, 12:53 PM
I think it is a fantastic idea to change the time when these specific items are shelved. Mornings, some days, . . . mid day, . . . afternoon, evening, . . . keep them guessing. I got lucky, the other day, and managed to pick up 3 boxes of 100 count Federal bulk 9mm. First time in who knows how long that I actually purchased 9mm [because I will no reward gunshow antics of those "supply and demand opporunists" with stacks of overpriced items]. Whether or not you believe they have the right to do this, . . . and it is "fair", . . . I won't be the one standing in their inflated priced line.

I've been getting fairly lucky with 7.62x39 at the local Walmart. If I see it, I'll get it. The problem with "having them raise the prices up" is that once that is done, it will be improbable that the pricees will ever come back down. It will be the new "fair market value" and will keep a lot of people from being able to get it.

brainwake
June 20, 2013, 02:29 PM
I was at a Walmart in the middle of the day, and I noticed they had a full stock of federal 223. I was like Wow! I picked up a couple and so did the others that happened to be there. Then when I saw the guy who was manning the counter....I knew was "that old guy" who clearly couldn't give a damn and would put the ammo on the shelf when he damn well felt like it. :) But I have also talked to another associate at another store who said they do it at 6 AM and there is a line waiting every day. So clearly there is no real policy here...it seems to be up to the store and how they feel like doing it.

PabloJ
June 20, 2013, 04:24 PM
It's getting better. Yesterday Walmart had 3 boxes of Federal 9x19 JHPs and four boxes of
.45ACP 'ball' ammo.

CMC
June 20, 2013, 04:59 PM
I was at walmart last friday looking at the ammo shelves and one ******* ask me what I was looking for, I told him 22 lr and of course there is none on the shelve.
Well he told me he would be at the local flea market in the morning and he would have some for 20 bucks for 50 rounds.
I told him for that price i did not need any and walked away, I had to control myself not to insult the idiot.
I reload all my ammo but cant reload 22's otherwise I would not even look at the ammo there , even though I buy 223( at regular prices) so I can get the brass.

jcwit
June 20, 2013, 05:34 PM
I was at walmart last friday looking at the ammo shelves and one ******* ask me what I was looking for, I told him 22 lr and of course there is none on the shelve.
Well he told me he would be at the local flea market in the morning and he would have some for 20 bucks for 50 rounds.
I told him for that price i did not need any and walked away, I had to control myself not to insult the idiot.
I reload all my ammo but cant reload 22's otherwise I would not even look at the ammo there , even though I buy 223( at regular prices) so I can get the brass.

And there lies one of the major problems. Remember he's only trying to make a few bucks "More than likely under the table" while him and those of his ilk continue to drive up the prices. Remember, the cheat working "under the table" is hurting all of us, party affiliation be darned.

But he's a friend of the shooting sports, because he fills a niche in the supply chain.

More than likely I would have told him where he could stuff said .22's and interspersed my reply with 4 letter words. I know, I know not the nice thing to do, but I would have felt better and I never claimed I was overly nice.

Potatohead
June 20, 2013, 05:40 PM
Wow, that would be great. Could you PM me with info about the app.
someone said that app was offline here the other day

Ignition Override
June 21, 2013, 12:31 AM
Vern Humphrey: Nice find.
An 8-lb. jug of IMR 4064 was at our gun show two weeks ago. $165. I arrived about 13:30 Sunday, and the jug must have sat there all weekend.
The message to me was, why rush?

Seeing that the fever started to break weeks ago ("Gunbot" etc), I bought a second Romanian M-69 (.22) Trainer instead.

PabloJ
June 21, 2013, 01:21 AM
I was at walmart last friday looking at the ammo shelves and one ******* ask me what I was looking for, I told him 22 lr and of course there is none on the shelve.
Well he told me he would be at the local flea market in the morning and he would have some for 20 bucks for 50 rounds.
I told him for that price i did not need any and walked away, I had to control myself not to insult the idiot.
I reload all my ammo but cant reload 22's otherwise I would not even look at the ammo there , even though I buy 223( at regular prices) so I can get the brass.
The guy is working for Walmart and needs to make ends meet at what they pay him. I am glad you controlled your passions.

mdauben
June 21, 2013, 10:06 AM
The guy is working for Walmart and needs to make ends meet at what they pay him.
Actually, if this guy is working for Walmart and he's buying up their stock before it even hits the shelves, he needs to be fired. I'm sure if they knew his bosses would not appreciate the level of customer dis-satisfaction if not down right anger this sort of stuff generates.

HOWARD J
June 21, 2013, 11:14 AM
I have been reloading about 40 years
I bought some Federal 22's last fall
Two years ago I purchased some Prvi Partizan 243 ammo.
That is about the only ammo I have had to purchase in the last 10 years.
I do buy reloading components---almost impossible to get today but I have a good stock.

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