Range horror. I hope you're sitting down for this, I've never seen anything like it.


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Ranger Roberts
May 14, 2013, 11:42 AM
It's not often that I go to a range and this weekend reminded me why. Typically I shoot at my house (I am fortunate enough to have the property to do so), but my wife/in-laws and I belong to a private range as well. We typically go up there to throw clay and occasionally we bring clients (my wife and her dad own their own business). This weekend my wife asked me to go up to the range with her, my father in-law, a client and his son. I'm always happy to oblige to such a request, especially when we can write off the ammo!
Let me describe the set-up of the range for you before I get too far ahead of myself. Imagine cutting a baseball diamond (infield) in half, the side furthest to the left has 3 benches where you can shoot 100, 75 and 50 yards. The side furthest to the right has 2 benches to shoot 25 yards, if nobody else is at the range you can walk up closer to shoot pistol. If there are other people there, there is a pistol range a short walk away.
My wife and I got up there a bit early and after a few minutes of waiting we were met by her client and his son. We grabbed a bunch of rifles and headed up to the benches. We set up on one that wasn't occupied and hung out while waiting for her father. There were to younger guys (early 20's) shooting an AR and a few pistols. They told us that they were all done shooting pistols and were just going to use the rifle range. Both were real nice guys and were handling their firearms safely.
This is where it gets bad. As we are waiting a guy (I'd say around 40) and a young girl (I'd say between 8 & 10) walk up to the benches. While the other guys are shooting their rifle (hot range, with active fire!), the guy walks onto the range and heads over to hang up a target at the 25 yard mark. The guy with the AR immediately stops firing, points the rifle in a safe direction, unloads and unchambers. We were all in shock. It literally happened so fast we didn't even have time to yell. The guy holding the AR looked at us in complete disbelief. He sets the gun on the bench and says "uhh, what should I do?". I don't think he wanted to start any trouble or be rude so he just stood there. I yelled out to the guy and his daughter "Hey man, this was a hot range, what the heck are you doing?". At this point he's done hanging up his target, walks a few yards away and unholsters a revolver. I yelled over again and he ignores me again. After he fires his 6 shots, he turns to all of us and says "You guys don't have to stop shooting. Just keep it aimed to the left." :what:??? Not only is he down range, but he's asking us to shoot over his and his daughters heads!!!
Well, the 2 guys with the AR immediately packed up and started to leave. I excused myself from the client and his son and walked up to the club house to see if any board members were there. There was one guy there and I explained what happened. He walks out with me to confront the guy. Here's the kicker... the guy is a board member!!!!!! He gets all insulted about being confronted and started to get a little belligerent. He eventually huffs and puffs and marches himself and his daughter to the car and leaves.
I am a police officer. I am a NRA certified rifle and pistol instructor. I was in the army for 10 years and did 3 tours overseas. I have never, in my life seen anything like this before!!!
Sorry for the long post guys. I had to vent!

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Sam1911
May 14, 2013, 11:50 AM
The guy is a Board member? Well, that's going to be an uncomfortable next board meeting! :eek:

Walking your daughter down range while rifles are firing seems pretty close to endangerment, to me. I'd want this guy OUT of my club, pronto! Of course, at our club he would be.

Do you know if there will be follow-up proceedings?

Certaindeaf
May 14, 2013, 11:51 AM
He probably had a couple bandaids in his pocket.

9w1911
May 14, 2013, 11:59 AM
I don't do public ranges anymore

TRX
May 14, 2013, 12:02 PM
Unfortunately, people walking onto a hot range isn't uncommon around here... I've seen it several times.

I've never been sure if it was because they were such jerks they'd get a thrill out of stopping everyone from shooting, or if they were simply oblivious to warning signs, range rules, and common sense.

yzguy87
May 14, 2013, 12:04 PM
Keep us posted. This is an interesting/unsafe situation. If I was in your shoes and the board members didn't take appropriate action I'd leave the range for good.

lpsharp88
May 14, 2013, 12:05 PM
Not only is that incredibly unsafe, but he is teaching his daughter terrible firearm/range safety. I really hope that this was a one time lapse in judgement, but something tells me that it's not.

Sam1911
May 14, 2013, 12:07 PM
I don't do public ranges anymoreThat's the crazy part! This was a PRIVATE range. And this guy was on the BOD!

Lonestar49
May 14, 2013, 12:08 PM
...

Blind Faith

Simply put, a trust that everyone around will shoot straight and not hit him as if returning to some war zone and everyone around him has his back..

Or maybe an underlying death wish, hard to tell about either, in this type of situation/surrounding..

You, and the young men, did exactly right as his blind faith pushed the outside of the envelope of life IMHO

And, with a young child, I have no answers for that


Ls

bigdaa
May 14, 2013, 12:15 PM
Absolutely unfathomable and insane.

I am gald your caveat about sitting down first was in place.

Njal Thorgeirsson
May 14, 2013, 12:17 PM
Wow, you'd think people would have more common sense than that.

Just a few weekends ago, I was out at the national grasslands here in colorado. It was starting to get a little bit busy (I saw maybe 3 other groups, but they were all shooting clays, and were probably 200+ yards away and shooting away from my direction), and two more cars pull up, not but 30 feet on either side of me. First thing they did was walk out to set up targets, very close to my line of fire. At the moment they started walking I had a full cylinder of .44 that I promptly cleared and set on my table. I felt sort of bad having to leave my targets out there when it came time for me to leave (as I very much oppose littering- although they were just paper targets and a few clays), but there was absolutely no safe way I would retrieve them.

Jim, West PA
May 14, 2013, 12:19 PM
Given you occupation and the fact that you personaly witnessed what Sam, and I, feel was a clear case of child endangerment, I'd be giving some serious thot to a professional follow up.
I would in the very least talk it over with my Sgt. and get his advice.

El Tejon
May 14, 2013, 12:22 PM
I see you are new to guns. Welcome to the gun culture.

Clint Smith puts it this way, lots of people have been cut with knives (usually in the kitchen over a bagel) but few people have been shot and thus do not appreciate the danger of firearms because of their lack of training/experience.

19-3Ben
May 14, 2013, 12:24 PM
Given you occupation and the fact that you personaly witnessed what Sam, and I, feel was a clear case of child endangerment, I'd be giving some serious thot to a professional follow up.

In CT this would be a pretty clear Risk of Injury to a Minor, case.
And in my private club, he'd be asked to leave and not return, BOD member or not.

Ranger Roberts
May 14, 2013, 12:24 PM
Sam 1911 Do you know if there will be follow-up proceedings?

I'm not sure if there will be. I am definitely following up with them though. My department actually uses this range to qualify once a year. We rent out the range for 2 days and it's closed to all other members. Not that it should mean that we pull more weight or anything, but I'm sure they won't want to lose the revenue if we decide to go elsewhere.

Ranger Roberts
May 14, 2013, 12:30 PM
Given you occupation and the fact that you personaly witnessed what Sam, and I, feel was a clear case of child endangerment, I'd be giving some serious thot to a professional follow up.
I would in the very least talk it over with my Sgt. and get his advice.

I just talked with my chief about it and he is making a few phone calls to child protective services. It unfathomable what this guy did.

I feel bad saying it, but when we first pulled up and we saw the young guys with the AR and the pistols, the first thing that popped into my head was "these guys probably aren't going to be very safe". I know that I shouldn't assume but because of past experiences I did.

Nothing could have prepared me for what that guy did with his daughter!

anothernewb
May 14, 2013, 12:40 PM
dang. The outdoor range I'm at has some typical idiots, but I can't say I've seen anything like that before.

Cosmoline
May 14, 2013, 01:14 PM
It happens. I remember one time at a hot pistol range with about 20 people blasting away, a fellow just strides right out with targets and a stand. I've seen it happen at other times where nobody was actually shooting, but the range was hot. A surprising number of people don't really understand range discipline.

Deaf Smith
May 14, 2013, 01:38 PM
Ranger,

I've seen an idiot do just what you said. Walked out there while a bunch of us were firing. I yelled 'cease fire' and the guy stopped and looked at me wondering why I got everyone to stop firing.

There are idiots out there. Usually Uncle Darwin weeds them out early but some do luck out in life.

Deaf

GCMkc
May 14, 2013, 01:43 PM
Goes to show that even a private range can't keep out the dummies. Way to set an example for stupidity. Good thing he didn't walk out there with his child.

JustinJ
May 14, 2013, 01:55 PM
A month or two ago i was at the pistol range of a local gun range. Well into a "cold range" some jack ass yelled "hot range" as i was still hanging my target. I turned and yelled a "no, it's not a hot 'bleeping' range" and he laughed and said he was just kidding. I obviously was not amused.

45_auto
May 14, 2013, 01:57 PM
Range horror. I hope you're sitting down for this, I've never seen anything like it.

You must not go shooting very often. I've personally seen something similar happen at least half a dozen times in the last 20 years. Since I only average maybe 3 or 4 hours a week at a range, I would imagine that it also happens quite a bit when I'm not there.

I'm with Cosmoline, a lot of people just don't understand range discipline. The ones I've talked to about it seem to figure that as long as you're all shooting in a straight line at your target then there shouldn't be any problems.

Always remember that half the people out there are below average in intelligence.

WinchesterAA
May 14, 2013, 01:57 PM
I had a similar experience. I'd just shot a few rounds out of my 35 remington when a hawk flew down onto my target.

The nerve! He just stared at me for about 5 minutes. I finally had to walk down range to tell the guy to get the heck off my target. After some coarse words, he went away.

henschman
May 14, 2013, 02:10 PM
Though it is a bit hard to wrap my mind around how anyone could do something like that, I could somewhat expect it from a new shooter. But someone who is on the board of a gun club?! It makes me wonder how a guy like that could wind up on a board. Must be one of those good ol boy situations.

I started out as a completely self-taught shooter who wasn't brought up shooting. I remember when I was a teen/early 20s kid and first getting into it, I realized that when I was going onto a gun range, there were certain expected norms of behavior that people go by. I really watched and paid attention to the procedures -- aside from all safety concerns, I also wanted to look like I knew what I was doing, and just not look like a dumbass. It's hard to imagine someone not even caring about those types of concerns.

All that said, I think it is completely uncalled for to inform child protective services on the guy. I wouldn't do that to my worst enemy. Besides, by the way the OP described it, he didn't endanger the kid... just himself.

Certaindeaf
May 14, 2013, 02:17 PM
Always remember that half the people out there are below average in intelligence.
And an IQ of 100 (the average), is pretty dang stupid.

hso
May 14, 2013, 02:20 PM
He needs to be removed from the board and ousted from the club. If anything had happened to him or his daughter the range would have been as dead as they were.

BBQJOE
May 14, 2013, 02:25 PM
I never shoot with strangers, or at public/private ranges.
I am living proof that I've never been accidentally killed. :neener:

Ranger Roberts
May 14, 2013, 02:27 PM
GCMkc Good thing he didn't walk out there with his child.

Sorry, I might have described it wrong. He definitely had the child with him. She was standing right next to him the whole time.

45 auto You must not go shooting very often. I've personally seen something similar happen at least half a dozen times in the last 20 years. Since I only average maybe 3 or 4 hours a week at a range, I would imagine that it also happens quite a bit when I'm not there.

About 10 years ago I gave up on all public ranges. The particular range I was at is private and usually not crowded at all. In fact I've never seen anyone in the shotgun area except for myself and my family. I have a range on my property and that's where I do 99% of my shooting. If I had my way it's where I'd do 100% of my shooting!

shaggy430
May 14, 2013, 02:30 PM
I've seen people walk out on hot ranges twice. I've been downrange when someone fired once. I saw a lady look down the barrel of her derringer after a misfire. After the last one, I gave up on the local public range.

Texan Scott
May 14, 2013, 02:34 PM
Those of us that have seen an adult hysterically rocking the body of a child might like to impress upon this man in the strongest terms that he is a fool.

95XL883
May 14, 2013, 03:12 PM
Wow! A total lack of common sense. Maybe he would listen to the possibility of losing insurance resulting in shutting the range completely. (Obviously that would be a drastic step but if that behavior continues it is just a matter of time before it happens.) I'm just trying to offer a different approach to getting the guy to listen to reason, however unlikely it seems. And to take a child into that danger. Sheesh!

As far as shoot straight, I have a revolver where the timing is off a little. (I won't shoot it again until I get if fixed.) Some shots will be spot on but 1 of 5 can be off by 2 feet at 7 yards. Saying shoot straight is relying on man and machine and both can fail. Sheesh, what a "non-High Road adjective".

I pray he doesn't learn the hard way how stupid that was.

Drail
May 14, 2013, 03:13 PM
As a former NRA instructor and Range Officer I have seen this happen more than you would believe at numerous ranges. People today don't seem to have much common sense and most of them will react badly if criticized. The last club I belonged to had so many members it was hard to know everybody. Anytime I saw an unfamiliar face show up at the range I always stopped what I was doing and watched them for a while. Eventually you get to where you expect this sort of behavior from the new folks. The thing that I always found bewildering was the attitude of "Oh, just go ahead, you're not bothering me by shooting right past me while I am walking around on a hot range." They just don't get it. We had a backpacker walking around between the 200 and 300 yard rifle berms oblivious to the fact that he had stepped onto a live range (warning signs were posted everywhere). We finally had to send some ROs down range in a truck to get him off of the property. When you are at a range, public or private, watch everyone around you including the Range Officers (if present). Some of them have no idea how dangerous a live range can be unless EVERYONE knows and follows the rules.

r1derbike
May 14, 2013, 03:19 PM
CHILD STANDING NEXT TO HIM! He should be fired before the next board meeting. An emergency meeting should be convened immediately. You can't fix stupid, but the reckless endangerment of the life of a child?

Flummoxed, speechless, and ashamed that we have those in the sport who have gotten so irresponsibly comfortable with stupidity that it will kill them some day.

Are there any laws that would apply to give this BM (I don't mean bowel movement) a lesson with monetary forfeiture and endangerment?

Is he senile, have cognitive issues, early alzheimers? This is a shake-your-head moment for the guys shooting.

Only good here? Nobody was hurt.

Chris-bob
May 14, 2013, 03:32 PM
All that said, I think it is completely uncalled for to inform child protective services on the guy. I wouldn't do that to my worst enemy. Besides, by the way the OP described it, he didn't endanger the kid... just himself.
Even if the kid followed him out on a hot range, I could never call CPS and potentially ruin the child's life(and possibly siblings if any) without first having the Board sit the offender down for a nice long chat.

Certaindeaf
May 14, 2013, 03:33 PM
/As far as shoot straight, I have a revolver where the timing is off a little. (I won't shoot it again until I get if fixed.) Some shots will be spot on but 1 of 5 can be off by 2 feet at 7 yards..
A little off? It sounds like you're experiencing a chainfire. lolz. seriously

stumpers
May 14, 2013, 03:44 PM
The average gun owner is likely leaps and bounds less responsible than the average member of THR. I would guess I could get along at a range with most people here, but some others I've come across keep me away from ranges.

I have had people shoot downrange while I was hanging targets a few lanes over. Aside from being in fear for my life, then irate, then calm enough to say something - I was met with shoulder shrugs and "so whats?"

Call the police - I did. It resulted in arrests and criminal charges.

There are few "accidents", firearm deaths and injuries are usually deliberate or negligent.

Keb
May 14, 2013, 03:57 PM
I was a member of the gun club there when there was a local Fat Tire mtn bike rider issue to get to an obscure trail that was blocked by the Club range property.

The County Rec Dept guy literally opened a bike trail along the east edge of the rifle range on club land. After the Club told him their plan was unsafe and illegal trespassing, the County guy published a trail access map that was widely distributed, ezpecially to the local mountain bikers. Right thru the range. We would be shooting, then spot the bikes coming through the sagebrush.

Quite a squak was made, but after a month or two the County backed off.

But talk of stoopid!

Ryanxia
May 14, 2013, 04:22 PM
I feel bad for his daughter.

Blackstone
May 14, 2013, 04:44 PM
The man clearly has no sense of self-preservation, for his life or that of his daughter...

481
May 14, 2013, 05:31 PM
Wow, that is an amazing example of reckless disregard for himself and his daughter. Perhaps the board will present him with a Darwin Award just prior to his dismissal.

monotonous_iterancy
May 14, 2013, 06:01 PM
Hearing of such wild irresponsibility and lack of safety dismays me. Anti-gun people think that most people aren't able to be trusted around guns, and people like this individual give them ammo to say that they're right.

This reminds of a thread I started (www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=692067).

Outside of a public range once or twice, I've never been on a proper range. From your experience, what is the ratio of unsafe vs. safe people?

oneounceload
May 14, 2013, 06:10 PM
He probably had a couple bandaids in his pocket.

Or a couple of beers under his belt

Here is a picture of a Swiss range:
http://www.swissrifles.com/shooting/bursin_line1.jpg

Notice the entrance driveway on the right where cars come in, even as the range is hot. They serve beer and wine and food after shooting - yet they have no issues

Potatohead
May 14, 2013, 06:16 PM
hey, it wouldnt be a bad idea to have a sticky (or thread or whatever) to let us new folks in on range etiquette/protocol. i mean, i know the generalities of course but i never see many rules posted other than stuff like "paper targets only" and that type stuff. it sounds elementary because it is i guess, but i'm a newb and not afraid to say that i dont really know ALL of the range etiquette and would like to. (i do know not to walk out and mess with targets while the line is hot). i know to have your mag ejected and your frame locked back when you're cold, and i know not to fire while someone is downrange-things like that. i guess most of it is just common sense but i wouldnt have known about locking the frame back if someone hadnt told me on the way to my first range trip a few months back.

oneounceload
May 14, 2013, 06:39 PM
When I lived out West, we had a city park rifle/pistol range with no RO. It was customary if you wanted to go change targets and folks were still shooting to move away from the bench and sit on the back ledge of the overhead cover. After a few did the same, folks were courteous enough to stop and call a cold range.

Another sore spot with me - at this same range, we had 32 covered benches - I was there by myself early one summer morning on the very end. Some guy shows up and sets up right next to me and then pulls out a Springfield M1A with a muzzle break - the blast was so bad I moved to the back and waited for him to finish.

Awareness, courtesy and respect go a long way - whether young or old, new or experienced

Potatohead
May 14, 2013, 06:47 PM
true.

Jcinnb
May 14, 2013, 08:27 PM
Maybe he was going for the Darwin Award! He should at least place.

Lex Luthier
May 14, 2013, 08:28 PM
I have a question.

Should this grown adult who showed purely idiotic judgment be removed of his 2A rights? Where do we draw the line?

1) He was an idiot.
2) He endangered his own child.
3) He was a moron.

vamo
May 14, 2013, 08:48 PM
Should this grown adult who showed purely idiotic judgment be removed of his 2A rights?

No, but he should at the very least be required to take a firearms safety class. Preferably the same one they make kids take to get their first hunting license.

76shuvlinoff
May 14, 2013, 09:03 PM
I am lucky, I shoot at home.

SSN Vet
May 14, 2013, 10:02 PM
Wow!

You can't fix stupid

95XL883
May 15, 2013, 12:07 AM
A little off? It sounds like you're experiencing a chainfire. lolz. seriously

I'm a sucker for old beater Dan Wessons. I got it for $230. It was going to be my truck gun but after 12 rounds I decided I better get it fixed first. (I think it is the timing but I'm not a gunsmith.)

To keep the thread on track, I'm still amazed at that guy. To risk having his daughter shot or seeing her father shot!? In my best Fazzini voice, "Unbelievable!" How did he get on the Board?

Texan Scott
May 15, 2013, 12:26 AM
"Inconthievable!"... my guess is money.

PavePusher
May 15, 2013, 03:22 AM
Fortunately, the County-run public ranges here in the Tucson area seem to be very well run. I've never had/seen any serious problems, and the regulars help the RSO's keep an eye on the obviously new folks.

There are several un-regulated shooting areas on public land. From the behavior I've seen while passing by in my truck and on mountain bikes, I will never shoot in those locations, ever.

thump_rrr
May 15, 2013, 03:42 AM
Are you telling me that he didn't require a universal background check to have his daughter?

Highland Ranger
May 15, 2013, 06:01 AM
Time for a new range. Something bad will happen at that one.

Cee Zee
May 15, 2013, 06:34 AM
I hate to say it but I would have to contact the sheriff's office for the area where your range is located. If that moron gets someone killed (like his daughter) there won't be any more ranges there. If the BOD doesn't enforce their own laws (or even follow them themselves) then the management of that range is off the charts dangerous and it's only a matter of time before something bad happens. I take safety seriously and I think everyone should. If the sheriff didn't do anything I'd get the media involved or the state government. I know it stinks to do things like that but sometimes it needs to be done. Rat them out to the gun grabbers before the gun grabbers have a very serious issue to toss around.

Hokkmike
May 15, 2013, 07:13 AM
Any chance he was drinking....???

OilyPablo
May 15, 2013, 07:13 AM
Never see this before. Never. And I shoot a lot, mostly private club ranges.

So - and no excuse - I can almost imagine some distracted person by himself after say a nasty day at work or whatever, arrive at the range start setting up at a hot range, get his targets out and begin to step, and oh yeah hot range, I can't go out....stop before he even gets to the line.

But to walk out with a kid? And to top it off, act as if he didn't know the rules? What????

He's on the BOD, did that by chance make him think he is immune to the rules? Surely your club would not elect an inexperienced person or complete idiot to the BOD?

45_auto
May 15, 2013, 07:24 AM
I hate to say it but I would have to contact the sheriff's office for the area where your range is located.

I was a sheriff for 8 years.

What exactly do you expect the sheriff's department to do about it? There is no law against going downrange parallel to where someone else is firing. It's not the end of the world. I've done it myself on many occasions. I didn't have any choice, the army and the sheriff's department MADE me do it whether I wanted to or not! I've seen it done in private training classes and by people who are out practicing their "zombie defense" training. It's pretty much a standard small arms tactic. Look up "fire and movement tactics". Crap, even wikipedia has an article on it.

It definitely wasn't the smartest thing to do in the situation the OP described, but again, exactly what do you expect law enforcement to do about it? They aren't there to be your mama. Someone needed to bring it to the offender's attention that it wasn't the safest thing to do, which they did. They also need to point out to the club that their safety regulations and penalties for disobeying are obviously not being communicated to everyone. Sounds like there should be some club procedure/training revisions in the near future. If the guy's a repeat violater, he needs to go.

If everyone is following the four basic rules and is aware of their surroundings at the club, then firing should stop immediately if someone goes forward of the line. That's pretty much the whole point of ANYONE being able to call a "cease fire" at any club I've ever been to. Sounds like that's exactly what happened. At that point it is a club matter as to what happens next.

I can imagine getting the call from cee zee.

cee zee: "Hello, I'd like to report a guy walking downrange with his daughter on a private range while some other people were shooting".

dispatcher: "Was anyone hurt? Were any laws broken? Is this on private property?"

cee zee: "uh, no one was hurt, but it was possible that they could have been! It's private property, but they broke the club's rules!"

dispatcher: "What would you like us to do about it?"

cee zee: "Can you come out and enforce the club's range rules for us?"

Some people need to get a life. It's not surprising the direction that the country is heading in with the number of people on a frigging gun forum that believe that the government needs to be involved in resolving a club safety violation at a private range.

OilyPablo
May 15, 2013, 07:37 AM
.....gun forum that believe that the government needs to be involved in resolving a club safety violation at a private range.....

I was a bit surprised at that as well - some advocating contacting their state/local child services! Holy smokes. :banghead:

Sam1911
May 15, 2013, 07:51 AM
...some advocating contacting their state/local child services!That's not because they want CPS to come enforce the range rules, but because the guy put his daughter's life in serious and immediate danger, as a matter of (what seems to be) his standard procedure. That's not club rules. That's child endangerment.

I don't think I could quite do that, CPS is likely to make the rest of that kid's childhood a Dickensian nightmare (far beyond what might be a one-time safety risk), but the guy needs to understand just how badly he screwed up, what he was risking, and resolve to never do anything so stupid again.

If he was observed to do this more than once, especially after being warned, ... maybe.

Walkalong
May 15, 2013, 08:39 AM
We went cold at our private range one a day and put targets up. The fellow at the other end got back and then started shooting when I was still about 50 yards out.

I was pretty stern with him. No cussing or belittling etc, but he needed some 12" wide duct tape to tape his posterior back on when I was done.

md2lgyk
May 15, 2013, 08:48 AM
Wow. In all my 50 years of shooting, I've never seen anything like that. What an idiot. Board member or not, if this happened at my club, he'd be gone quick-time.

Ranger Roberts
May 15, 2013, 11:09 AM
Any chance he was drinking....???

I didn't smell any booze and his eyes didn't show any signs of drinking. If I smelled booze this whole thing would have ended with a quick trip to county lockup.

Arkansas Paul
May 15, 2013, 12:24 PM
Wow!

You can't fix stupid

I was gonna say the same thing. It just sucks that the 8-10 year old child could have suffered or been killed because of his stupidity. Some people shouldn't breed.

Certaindeaf
May 15, 2013, 12:29 PM
The saying/command "eyes and ears" actually has two meanings. Good thing folk there had their heads on a swivel.

sleepyone
May 15, 2013, 01:09 PM
Quote:
All that said, I think it is completely uncalled for to inform child protective services on the guy. I wouldn't do that to my worst enemy. Besides, by the way the OP described it, he didn't endanger the kid... just himself.

Even if the kid followed him out on a hot range, I could never call CPS and potentially ruin the child's life(and possibly siblings if any) without first having the Board sit the offender down for a nice long chat.

+1 You need to be very careful about calling CPS in any situation. Have your facts straight. Remember this as hard as it is to grasp. It is not against the law to be a bad parent. It is against the law to be a neglectful or abusive parent. We have lots of bad parents out there.

I worked with kids in foster care for many years. It is extremely hard to stop the CPS ball once you get it rolling. In some cases, families are torn apart for several years or forever uneccesarily.

Potatohead
May 15, 2013, 01:11 PM
i second that

Beach Nut
May 15, 2013, 01:35 PM
I am in agreement with what a earlier poster mentioned about a sticky or even
a forum dedicated to range protocol and etiquette. I am fortunate that I have
private land to shoot on but I have been invited by my friends on several
occasions to shoot at firing ranges and I have been shy about going with them.
I wouldn't want to do anything unknowingly that would embarrass myself or
the party that was kind enough to invite me. I learned basic gun safety at an
early age but ranges have rules and higher standards (most of them at least)
and I don't want to look like the village idiot if I do decide to accept one of
these invitations.

GEM
May 15, 2013, 02:11 PM
I've been at the range when a middle aged man and his elderly father were shooting. The old guy wouldn't stop firing when a cease fire was called. His son had to wrestle the gun away from him once. On the second time, the guy was booted.

He insisted that he knew how to shoot.

Ranger Roberts
May 15, 2013, 02:17 PM
You need to be very careful about calling CPS in any situation

It's not going to come to calling CPS. What he did was incredibly stupid and unsafe, but not illegal. I will be going to the next board meeting to make sure everyone is fully aware of what happened. My chief is going with me as well. My dept has a good relationship with the president of the board, after hearing the story I am sure he will have a lot to say about it.

Arkansas Paul
May 15, 2013, 02:36 PM
If they have a brain between them they'll toss this guy. At my range there is a meeting you attend before you're granted membership where they go over the rules of the range. They said there are only two instances they have ever kicked someone out of the club. One was for safety violations and one was intoxicated and out there shooting. Endangering a child's life out there would be grounds for dismissal at my club, and rightfully so.

GrOuNd_ZeRo
May 15, 2013, 02:38 PM
I've had a guy go hot on a cold range but that has been the worst, worst I personnaly did when I was brand new to guns and went shooting with family, after I emptied the 30-30 levergun I spun it AROUND facing away from the range, they corrected me on the spot and I learned a lesson that I relearned in Basic training by proxy lol.

Other shameful events were two ND's over the seven years I have been a gun owner and I learned a hard lesson twice too many.

Certaindeaf
May 15, 2013, 02:52 PM
The worse thing I saw was a fellow shoot his revolver downrange while he was at the 25 and the other fifty or so were milling about at the seven.. it was a big competition. I was on the fifty but about seventy yards away (it was a fifty yard range).. my hand went to my gun ("hot" range) when I saw what I saw but thankfully nothing bad happened. Things happen. I have no idea what happened to this individual.

leadcounsel
May 15, 2013, 03:02 PM
"Range Horror" - a bit of an over-reaction.

Totally irresponsible, bordering on criminal endangerment, yes.

I agree that this is not the type of person you want allowed on your range due to his lack of safe shooting practices.

Potatohead
May 15, 2013, 03:04 PM
I am in agreement with what a earlier poster mentioned about a sticky or even
a forum dedicated to range protocol and etiquette. I am fortunate that I have
private land to shoot on but I have been invited by my friends on several
occasions to shoot at firing ranges and I have been shy about going with them.
I wouldn't want to do anything unknowingly that would embarrass myself or
the party that was kind enough to invite me. I learned basic gun safety at an
early age but ranges have rules and higher standards (most of them at least)
and I don't want to look like the village idiot if I do decide to accept one of
these invitations.
Glad to know im not the only one....

Im looking for land right now myself, but so far haven't found exactly what im loking for. Can't wait to get off of the public ranges!

Arkansas Paul
May 15, 2013, 03:09 PM
I've never witnessed anything at my range, but at the 100 yd rifle line, there's a perfect hole of at least .30 caliber in the tin roof above bench #2. I'd like to know the story behind that one.

Blackstone
May 15, 2013, 03:48 PM
A range I shoot at regularly has holes in the cover above and BEHIND the firing point. Fortunately it's an air pistol range, but it's still worrying and inexcusable.

Certaindeaf
May 15, 2013, 03:55 PM
A range I shoot at regularly has holes in the cover above and BEHIND the firing point. Fortunately it's an air pistol range, but it's still worrying and inexcusable.
Tempest in a teapot. lolz

Blackstone
May 15, 2013, 04:00 PM
Well, if you can do it with an air pistol, you can do it with something that packs a bit more punch!

Certaindeaf
May 15, 2013, 04:06 PM
Well I understand. It was just a play on the fine British Tempest air pistol. Humor and all like that.

Blackstone
May 15, 2013, 04:17 PM
Ah I see, I'm a little too young to have got that reference :p

Certaindeaf
May 15, 2013, 04:23 PM
Yep, I shot a moose with mine just last week.. well, it was actually a mouse. good pistol anyways

TrickyDick
May 16, 2013, 01:01 AM
unbelievable.

coloradokevin
May 16, 2013, 05:16 AM
Some people just don't have much sense. A good friend of mine from growing up is like that, and though I hunted with him throughout childhood, I really don't like to go shooting with him anymore. He has a feeling of invincibility, and also tends to handle his firearms like accidents just can't happen to him. I've seen him walk down range on his own home range while a group of friends were shooting. When we gave him the "What the &%*$ are you doing???", he just said: "you guys know how to shoot, you won't hit me".

Shultzhaus
May 16, 2013, 06:43 AM
At our club range there is a red flag on a pole in front of the firing shed. When someone is down range, the flag must be up. When the person returns he is required to make sure no one else is still in field, and removes the flag. Also there is a farm field right next to our range. The farmer also has a flag to put up when he is working that field. Any violation of these procedures is immediate expulsion.

JustinJ
May 16, 2013, 11:04 AM
I am in agreement with what a earlier poster mentioned about a sticky or even
a forum dedicated to range protocol and etiquette.

Very hard to do as there is a wide range of different protocols at various different ranges. Yeah, there are some rules that are universal but these are essentially just safe gun handling rules in general.

JRH6856
May 16, 2013, 11:13 AM
Also there is a farm field right next to our range. The farmer also has a flag to put up when he is working that field. Any violation of this procedure is immediate expulsion.

So if he forgets the flag, the farmer gets kicked out of his own field? :what:

Sam1911
May 16, 2013, 11:19 AM
I agree with Justin. It is difficult to write down a universal list of range protocols.

However, you could start with:
1) Never handle a firearm if there is anyone downrange of you.
2) ANY person on the line may call "Cease Fire" at any moment if they notice an unsafe situation develop.
3) Eye and Ear protection must be worn on the line at all times the line is "hot."

Beyond that and the basic "4 Rules" everything else seems to have variations in practice depending on the range and the type of shooting being done.

It is ultimately the responsibility of the shooter to assess every motion s/he makes to ensure complete safety at all times. Scary thought!

JRH6856
May 16, 2013, 12:15 PM
It is ultimately the responsibility of the shooter to assess every motion s/he makes to ensure complete safety at all times. Scary thought!

A lot of antis have that scary thought all the time. It's really a problem for those that don't really believe in personal responsibility. :uhoh:

Potatohead
May 16, 2013, 12:26 PM
) Never handle a firearm if there is anyone downrange of you.

So if someone is down range, dont handle any of your guns at all? even if pointed in a safe direction?

Certaindeaf
May 16, 2013, 12:30 PM
So if someone is down range, dont handle any of your guns at all? even if pointed in a safe direction?
Yes. Don't handle guns with people downrange. That means uncasing/casing, dicking around with a "broken" firearm, etc, etc.

Sam1911
May 16, 2013, 12:37 PM
So if someone is down range, dont handle any of your guns at all? even if pointed in a safe direction?Exactly.

If it's holstered, leave it holstered. If it's on the bench, leave it on the bench. Don't lay a finger on it until everyone's back behind the firing line and the command is given, "Range is Hot." (Or, in some instances, until everyone is behind the safe line and the Safety Officer instructs you to "Load and Make Ready.")

Kristensdaddy
May 16, 2013, 12:38 PM
At our range it mean you do not touch, handle, fondle, pack, unpack, fix, load, clean or otherwise while someone is down range.

Arizona_Mike
May 16, 2013, 12:53 PM
I have seen some horrible things at the self-policed range in Ocala National Forest (in the '90s--no idea if it still there).

One time there were a couple people trying to manage a group of 6 or 7 special-needs children (admirable but the instructor to student ratio should have been closer to 1:1).

I was changing my target at 100 yards when shots rang out. I hit the dirt and was about to run for the trees lining the range when one of the adults intervened.

Another time I was getting struck in the face and neck by lead foil from a new shooter with an antique revolver with a major timing problem.

Then there was the time my fiance and I arrived at an empty range with a fresh red blood trail leading from the pistol bench to the parking lot. Rumor later was that it was a severe .45 beaver-tail bite but it looked like too much blood.

Mike

JustinJ
May 16, 2013, 01:47 PM
However, you could start with:
1) Never handle a firearm if there is anyone downrange of you.
2) ANY person on the line may call "Cease Fire" at any moment if they notice an unsafe situation develop.
3) Eye and Ear protection must be worn on the line at all times the line is "hot."

I would probably add that a range should never be treated as cold until all people at the line acknowledge the call. Also, all guns should be unloaded before a range is to be considered cold.

There is a range in central TX near New Braunfels that has what i consider to be a very poor set up in terms of safety. There is no fixed line at the pistol range. Instead, there is a fixed target line. After a cold range the shooting line is deteremined by the first person to get into position. All others shooters must line up with him or her. Luckily the range does have an attendant at all times but all it takes is a momentary distraction for something to go wrong. It also prevents all but the first shooter to line from being able to determine at what distance they wish to shoot.

scaatylobo
May 16, 2013, 02:04 PM
I too am NRA lifer and was LEO & R.O.

That kind of behavior would have me yelling to SAFE ALL GUNS - at the very least.

I dont care if he was 'insulted' .

And if they dont suspend him then the club has too many faults for me.

Al Thompson
May 16, 2013, 02:24 PM
At almost 100 replies, I think we can tag this one as "asked and answered"...

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