SBR


PDA






Keeperfaith
May 15, 2013, 01:40 AM
Let's say I will build a short barreled AR-15.

Do I need to do the NFA paper work before I buy the parts or before I build the rifle OR after the rifle is built?

Does a SBR (which is registered) have a serial numbered barrel?

How about shortening shotgun barrel under 18"? Can you do it yourself or do you have to purchase from a dealer? (I know I can shorten it myself but I'm wondering if it's legal to DIY and just get the NFA paper work to go along with it)?

Thanks

Steve

If you enjoyed reading about "SBR" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Sam1911
May 15, 2013, 08:45 AM
Do I need to do the NFA paper work before I buy the parts or before I build the rifle OR after the rifle is built?You need the Form 1 returned to you with the stamp BEFORE you assemble the rifle, and almost certainly should have it before you start collecting the major parts. That's a bit of a trickier area and there are ways to work around that, but you don't want to have the pile of parts to build your complete SBR on hand a moment before you have your returned form and stamp.

Does a SBR (which is registered) have a serial numbered barrel?No. The receiver is serial numbered and registered. You can then put various barrels on it.

How about shortening shotgun barrel under 18"? Can you do it yourself or do you have to purchase from a dealer? (I know I can shorten it myself but I'm wondering if it's legal to DIY and just get the NFA paper work to go along with it)?If you do it yourself, you use the "Form 1" to "make and register" an NFA firearm.

If you buy it from a dealer you use the "Form 4" to register the transfer of that NFA firearm to you.

Lennyjoe
May 15, 2013, 12:28 PM
Good info as I'm thinking about doing the same thing.

One last Q, if I may hijack the tread for a second, what about making the SBR full auto?

Sam1911
May 15, 2013, 12:39 PM
Full auto is a no-go. Since 1986 the machine gun registry has been closed to new entries, so the ATF simply will not approve that build. No approval, no registration, no tax stamp, and that rifle is worth 10 years in federal prison AND $250,000 in fines.

(A "SOT 2" manufacturer CAN build a new machine gun, but he can't sell it to you -- only to other manufacturers or dealers, or to a government agency.)

MtnCreek
May 15, 2013, 01:40 PM
what about making the SBR full auto?

There are registered M16's and registered DIAS's available, but pricey. If you were to go w/ an M16, SBR tax stamp is not required.

Keeper, If you're worried about long backorder times for the upper, have it ordered / shipped through a friend that does not have an AR15 rifle (or has an AR pistol).

Lennyjoe
May 15, 2013, 02:28 PM
Figured as much. Don't recon I'll be able to afford a full auto anytime soon....

Arizona_Mike
May 15, 2013, 08:04 PM
Let's say I will build a short barreled AR-15.

Do I need to do the NFA paper work before I buy the parts or before I build the rifle OR after the rifle is built?

Does a SBR (which is registered) have a serial numbered barrel?

How about shortening shotgun barrel under 18"? Can you do it yourself or do you have to purchase from a dealer? (I know I can shorten it myself but I'm wondering if it's legal to DIY and just get the NFA paper work to go along with it)?

Thanks

Steve
Under both US v. Thompson-Center (1992) [resisted by the AFT until 2011, then adopted] and ATF ruling 2011–4 standard "A firearm, as defined by the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3), is made when unassembled parts are placed in close proximity in such a way that they . . . serve no useful purpose other than to make . . ." This is what is known as "constructive possession". I am also in your situation with a SBR and two SBSes (checkes cashed in Feb) and I am making a point to have one essential part of each gun in my safe deposit box while I am gunsmithing the others at home.

In general the serial number from the original manufacture will be on the receiver, lower receiver, or barrel. Your additional marks you have to make can be on the receiver or barrel as well. Your choice but it usually makes the most sense to put the on the receiver.

Yes it is legal to DIY. Use ATF Form 1 "Application to Make and Register a Firearm". Generally more expensive to buy a short barrel then a long one unless you need sights.

Mike

lpsharp88
May 15, 2013, 08:41 PM
Full auto is a no-go. Since 1986 the machine gun registry has been closed to new entries, so the ATF simply will not approve that build. No approval, no registration, no tax stamp, and that rifle is worth 10 years in federal prison AND $250,000 in fines.

(A "SOT 2" manufacturer CAN build a new machine gun, but he can't sell it to you -- only to other manufacturers or dealers, or to a government agency.)
Not trying to hijack, but does the SOT 2 have to have an order in order to build a FA weapon, or can they do it "just because"?

Arizona_Mike
May 15, 2013, 09:24 PM
Not trying to hijack, but does the SOT 2 have to have an order in order to build a FA weapon, or can they do it "just because"?
I don't know for sure but I believe they need a military or law enforcement contract or even just a letter from a law enforcement officer stating that the department is interesting in a demonstration (which are apparently pretty common). Not sure how this breaks down with the various FFL and SOT types because I have not looked into in great detail.

Mike

Willie Sutton
May 16, 2013, 12:00 AM
Not trying to hijack, but does the SOT 2 have to have an order in order to build a FA weapon, or can they do it "just because"?


They can manufacture machine guns as dealer samples, either for themselves, or for other dealers. If they sell to another dealer, that dealer must have a letter from an authorized governmental purchaser requesting a demonstration of that weapon. If they manufacture for their own demonstration purposes, they can build what they desire. Google "Post 86 Dealer Sample" for more information. They can also manufacture for resale to qualified purchasers (read that "the government", be it local, county, state, tribal, or federal).


The cheapest way to own machine guns these days is to simply incorporate and then get a 07 FFL and then pay the SOT fee. The difference between the price of, say, a registered M-16 and paying the yearly fee for the licenses makes the license cheap by comparison. You can whip up a pretty good collection of full auto stuff for a reasonable cost, and when you want to quit the hobby you can dispose of it by selling the entire corporation that holds the license along with it's inventory. Alternatively, you can sell off to other dealers (if they can get demo letters) and as a last ditch you can just bandsaw the receivers into three pieces, have them removed from the NFA registry, and return the collection to the parts kits that they started out as. You will only lose the value of the receivers, which is really pretty nominal.

Contemplate this: You can build an M-16 if you are an 07/02 FFL/SOT for about $1000. You would pay $40K to buy a fully transferable one. You can destroy your M-16 for removal from the registry and reduce the balance to parts when you relinquish your FFL, and only lose the cost of the lower and the select fire parts, worth about $200 total at most. Your cost of ownership is the annual cost of the license.


Willie


.

dprice3844444
May 16, 2013, 12:22 AM
07/02 (manufacturer)does not need a leo letter.01/sot does

Sam1911
May 16, 2013, 08:35 AM
The cheapest way to own machine guns these days is to simply incorporate and then get a 07 FFL and then pay the SOT fee.
You're forgetting ITAR -- and that fact that you must be "in the business of" making firearms (and FFL is not to improve your own collection) and you need to have all the accouterments of a business, including licensing, zoning, etc. This isn't something that you do out of your garage just for yukks.

If you can't show that you're going into the gun making business, not a hobby, you aren't getting your FFL. If you can't get your business license approved for your location/operation, you aren't getting your FFL.

And then you have to pay the license fee, SOT fee, and ITAR every year, as well as keep very much on top of the paperwork, inspections, etc.

It isn't a simple way to get into collecting machine guns and you are QUITE likely to spend more than the cost of a gun (or three) by the time you're really able to go shoot the cool new machine gun you just made.

Contemplate this: You can build an M-16 if you are an 07/02 FFL/SOT for about $1000. You would pay $40K to buy a fully transferable one.What? $40K for a transferrable M-16? Naaah, not a run-of-the-mill one. $40K will get you a vintage Thompson 1927, or M1 with military provenance. Call it about half of that for an M-16.

Willie Sutton
May 16, 2013, 09:44 AM
You're forgetting ITAR -- and that fact that you must be "in the business of" making firearms (and FFL is not to improve your own collection) and you need to have all the accouterments of a business, including licensing, zoning, etc. This isn't something that you do out of your garage just for yukks.


It's no more or less difficult to get an 07 FFL than an 01 FFL, so anyone who is a "kitchen table FFL" has already done what's needed. Many gunsmiths already have 07 FFL's. Once you have an 07, it's just a matter of paying the SOT. You don't "apply" for the SOT, it's just a fee. Bear in mind that an 07 gives you all of the same privileges as an 01, so sell a few guns to your internet-ordering local community and enjoy.


Hobbies at this level are indistinguishable from professional ventures. If you want to really play with machine guns, an 07 FFL is part of the deal. If you want to be a consumer and wait months for every stamp, and have a very limited selection to buy from, at prices that are nuts... feel free to put in for a Form 4 every time you want to buy anything. Form 2's (07 FFL with SOT informing BATFE that it made a machine gun this morning) are easier... ;)


Willie


.

Sam1911
May 16, 2013, 10:01 AM
You're making quite a leap -- from Joe Average gun owner saving up a his pennies or cashing in a few stocks and buying a transferrable machine gun, to someone getting an FFL and dealing with all that entails.

You're trying to make it sound like they're about the same thing, and that's a little like saying "I'd like to own a cool 4x4 pickup," and "I'd like to become a professional freight hauling owner/operator," are about the same thing.

Arizona_Mike
May 16, 2013, 02:10 PM
07/02 (manufacturer)does not need a leo letter.01/sot does
As you can tell from my hedging, I thought there were some subtleties between the types on that question. Thanks for clarifying.

Mike

Willie Sutton
May 16, 2013, 08:39 PM
You're making quite a leap -- from Joe Average gun owner saving up a his pennies or cashing in a few stocks and buying a transferrable machine gun, to someone getting an FFL and dealing with all that entails.


You want machine guns? You will spend time one way or the other: Either to earn enough to buy transferables, or by spending the time to fill out the forms and be licensed.

The collector who wants to spend Kilo-Dollar$ on transferables and also to spend months waiting for and paying for stamps spends his time one way.

The guy who gets a 07 FFL spends it another.

You can decide from the below if it's worth it:


To be a FFL 07, SOT 02, you set up a corporation (one phone call to a Lawyer), have a location that can be licensed (my house, in my case), fill out the forms (took an hour), and pays the fees (07 FL = $50/year, Class 02 SOT = $500/year. ITAR can be free if you do a Commodity Jurisdiction letter with Dept of State). So... for $550/year the licensee can make all of the machine guns, suppressors, SBR's, and SBS's he likes, and can do FFL transfers and sales, etc.

My read? It's a cheap fee for the benefit it gives. I have an ITAR registration anyhow for my "day job" so that was irrelevent to me.

Actual mileage may vary.


Willie


.

Telekinesis
May 16, 2013, 10:01 PM
ITAR can be free if you do a Commodity Jurisdiction letter with Dept of State

Willie, are you a 07/02? Would you mind expanding on the exemption to ITAR and do you know many FFLs who have used it? This is the first I've heard of it.

Willie Sutton
May 16, 2013, 10:35 PM
^^ not yet, expecting the license "soon". All applications are in and all legal advice has been sought. I see this as the only practical way to play with all of the fun NFA stuff, balancing hassle and cost v/s fun. I will run it as a business, as there is a market here for suppressors, etc., and with the license I can make cans up for sale, etc. It'll be a paying hobby "with benefits", so to speak.


A CJ is basically a way for you to have a determination made as to if your "dual-use" item can be not considered to be on the US Munitions List.


Here's the FAQ on CJ's:

http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/commodity_jurisdiction/


It'll be interesting to see how this plays out, for a variety of items. I'm prepared for the decision to go either way. I've done this before at my "day job" where I deal in dual-use aerospace hardware daily. I can't speak to FFL's but this is a process that is available for application and possible approval. I am most certainly going to apply for one for my "product line" so to speak.

Bear in mind the exceptions for "research" as well. Making one of a kind items is outside the requirements for ITAR registration. Single Dealer-Samples made for retention by a FFL are "possibly" exempt if you are "researching" the best way to do conversions. Legal advice is being sought on this.


Really, for the dedicated "player", there are worse things than simply paying to be a registrant under the ITAR.



Willie


.

MtnCreek
May 17, 2013, 11:11 AM
Interesting. I just very quickly skimmed over the link, but it appears to me the manufacture of 'machine guns' and suppressors or firearm parts in general would be considered as listed items.

If you can figure a way out of ITAR, more power to you. I think it and the required FFL are a load of (un-THR) stuff.

Willie Sutton
May 17, 2013, 11:08 PM
^^^ I suspect you could get a CJ for eclectia no longer in service with any military, like Maxims, MG-42's, Thompsons, etc., and I would use similar items listed on the Curio and Relic list to defend that they are no longer military implements of war. I doubt that you could get one for M-16's, AK's or Uzi's.

In any event, this is one avenue to use if you *really* want NFA stuff that you cannot just belly up to the bar and purchase.



Willie


.

If you enjoyed reading about "SBR" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!