Safety


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Potatohead
May 15, 2013, 03:58 PM
I could be wrong but it seems like a good many folks say they do not like a thumb safety on their firearm. My uncle is a LEO and he scoffs at any gun with a safety-he wont even consider having a gun with one..

Also, i've heard a lot of people say they do not like a magazine disconnect safety either.

I know the safety "between your ears" is the most important but
why do some folks not like safety features such as these, especially since you can choose to just not use the thumb safety if you have one? Am i missing something here? (FYI i'm still new at this so its quite possible that yes, i am missing something here).

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mcdonl
May 15, 2013, 04:06 PM
For me... it depends on the gun. 1911... I just know where it is, and how to operate it without thinking (Key Term there....) for my CCW gun I prefer internal safety pistol or DA revolver because I can shoot it without thinking about the safety.

Potatohead
May 15, 2013, 04:09 PM
makes sense. my uncle would be near offended if you accused him of having a safety. i didnt know if it was a macho thing, or their were certain disadvantages to having them or what.

GrOuNd_ZeRo
May 15, 2013, 04:10 PM
On a carry gun a safety might get accidentally put on safe without you realising it, as soon as you need to use it the trigger is dead because it's on safe.

My Smith M&P has an external safety which is easilly activated but it's not my EDC gun, my Taurus 24/7c has a very positive safety and I can deal with it when I carry it since it's not easilly activated so i'm mixed on the subject, really depends on the gun!

MtnCreek
May 15, 2013, 04:12 PM
Also, i've heard a lot of people say they do not like a magazine disconnect safety either.

I won't own a pistol that won't fire w/o the mag. What if all I've got is the pistol and bullets, but no mag; I still want it to shoot.

Old_Gun_Hand
May 15, 2013, 04:15 PM
Mostly it is knee jerk reaction by people whose gun knowledge comes from the internet. I love guns with redundant safeties so I can choose to use them or not. Most of my guns have hammers and safeties. Many will say that it is possible that your safety can engage without you knowing it. It is also possible that Pam Anderson will marry me and we will honeymoon in my yacht in Monte Carlo. A lot of things are possible but unlikely.

Your brain may be the most important safety but unfortunately it is not the best. If it were we would not have so many safety devices in our lives and would not be reading about so many unintentional discharges. We are human and therefore subject to mental errors and those who cavalierly say keep your finger off the safety should check to see how telling someone to drive safe works.

I have been shooting over 40 years and know that if you handle a gun a lot, especially under stress in a non static environment, you probably fired your gun before you ready to. It may just be downrange or it may be in your house while dry firing. At my old gun club we used to say that if you have not had an unintentional discharge, you are not shooting enough. We also divided shooters into those that had an AD and those just waiting to have one.

A safety is not a safety if it does not prevent you from doing something you should not do. In this case, pull the trigger until you are ready to. The safeties in a Glock and others are there, not for our protection, but for the protection from liability for the manufacturer. They save a lot of money by eliminating a manual safety and then get people to accept it as a good selling point.

Just think about it, the same people who are afraid that they will forget to disengage a safety are telling you not to forget to keep your finger off the trigger. Huh? Isn't it not the same to remember either one of them? In worse case, having used a 1911 in combat, you quickly recognize that you forgot to flick the safety off safe and immediately remedy that in the next second. If a second or two is that critical you have failed to use your mind, the same one that is supposed to be your best safety, to be situationally aware of your surroundings and allows someone to get that close to you. People worry about any stupid little thing simply because it is possible rather than because it is likely. I can be hit in the head with a meteorite which is a real possibility but it is highly unlikely so I choose not to wear a helmet when I go out. :)

Potatohead
May 15, 2013, 04:16 PM
On a carry gun a safety might get accidentally put on safe without you realising it, as soon as you need to use it the trigger is dead because it's on safe.

My Smith M&P has an external safety which is easilly activated but it's not my EDC gun, my Taurus 24/7c has a very positive safety and I can deal with it when I carry it since it's not easilly activated so i'm mixed on the subject, really depends on the gun!
duh...your right, i didnt think about it snagging, and engaging the safety..

Potatohead
May 15, 2013, 04:18 PM
Mostly it is knee jerk reaction by people whose gun knowledge comes from the internet. I love guns with redundant safeties so I can choose to use them or not. Most of my guns have hammers and safeties. Many will say that it is possible that your safety can engage without you knowing it. It is also possible that Pam Anderson will marry me and we will honeymoon in my yacht in Monte Carlo. A lot of things are possible but unlikely.

Your brain may be the most important safety but unfortunately it is not the best. If it were we would not have so many safety devices in our lives and would not be reading about so many unintentional discharges. We are human and therefore subject to mental errors and those who cavalierly say keep your finger off the safety should check to see how telling someone to drive safe works.

I have been shooting over 40 years and know that if you handle a gun a lot, especially under stress in a non static environment, you probably fired your gun before you ready to. It may just be downrange or it may be in your house while dry firing. At my old gun club we used to say that if you have not had an unintentional discharge, you are not shooting enough. We also divided shooters into those that had an AD and those just waiting to have one.

A safety is not a safety if it does not prevent you from doing something you should not do. In this case, pull the trigger until you are ready to. The safeties in a Glock and others are there, not for our protection, but for the protection from liability for the manufacturer. They save a lot of money by eliminating a manual safety and then get people to accept it as a good selling point.

Just think about it, the same people who are afraid that they will forget to disengage a safety are telling you not to forget to keep your finger off the trigger. Huh? Isn't it not the same to remember either one of them? In worse case, having used a 1911 in combat, you quickly recognize that you forgot to flick the safety off safe and immediately remedy that in the next second. If a second or two is that critical you have failed to use your mind, the same one that is supposed to be your best safety, to be situationally aware of your surroundings and allows someone to get that close to you. People worry about any stupid little thing simply because it is possible rather than because it is likely. I can be hit in the head with a meteorite which is a real possibility but it is highly unlikely so I choose not to wear a helmet when I go out. :)
As a new shooter, im for all the safeties they can fit on there! I probably will always be that way tho-paranoid a bit

Ranger Roberts
May 15, 2013, 04:20 PM
Personally I don't have an issue with any particular type of safety. My duty weapon is a Glock, so when I'm not on duty my cc gun is a Glock. The main reason being that I train heavily with the Glock so I might as well stick with the same platform off duty as well as on duty. Not to say I wouldn't carry any of my other pistols but for me it's just a "muscle memory" thing.

Potatohead
May 15, 2013, 04:21 PM
It is also possible that Pam Anderson will marry me and we will honeymoon in my yacht in Monte Carlo

Hilarious!!!

Also-with my uncle, i almost feel it borders on macho..but he's pretty gun safe to though, so maybe not

sixgunner455
May 15, 2013, 04:23 PM
I like safeties on some designs, but not others. I don't like slide-mounted safeties very much. I like most frame-mounted safeties on semiautos. I don't like manual safeties on revolvers.

All of the semiautos I have, have a manual safety. All of my rifles except my muzzleloader do, too.

Potatohead
May 15, 2013, 04:23 PM
makes sense Ranger. Rangers lead the way ya know

Certaindeaf
May 15, 2013, 04:24 PM
"Isn't that cocked pistol dangerous?". Yep. Yes, Mam, it is.

Potatohead
May 15, 2013, 04:25 PM
Maybe i'm wrong and have just been paying more attention to the folks who say they don't like having a safety...maybe theyre the minority but it feels like i hear it or see it a lot.

Certaindeaf
May 15, 2013, 04:26 PM
Any old rifle has a safety on it. just so you know

Potatohead
May 15, 2013, 04:27 PM
Certain Deaf, your little green light is not on that says if you are online or not. is that turn offable because you must be online..?

Potatohead
May 15, 2013, 04:28 PM
Any old rifle has a safety on it. just so you know
???

Certaindeaf
May 15, 2013, 04:31 PM
???
You know what a rifle is? Most all of them have a "safety". A gun is a gun, unless it's your uncle preaching?

Trunk Monkey
May 15, 2013, 04:34 PM
I think it's personal preference. Both of my carry guns have decockers but no manual safety I like the simplicity of pull, point , shoot

And yes you can turn of the green light in your user CP go to user options, edit options and it will give you the option of being "invisible"

Beach Nut
May 15, 2013, 04:37 PM
Being a Glock and revolver owner, a safety on the frame was something I had to adjust
to on a handgun when I bought my first 1911. Keeping the finger away from the trigger
is still rule number one for me but now that I have adjusted to the 1911 platform, I
really like the idea of having another safeguard and it doesn't hurt to know I can flip
the safety and carry a 1911 with the hammer cocked.

mljdeckard
May 15, 2013, 04:42 PM
Purely a matter of preference. You will have people with the exact opposite view as well.

Alizard
May 15, 2013, 04:43 PM
I could be wrong but it seems like a good many folks say they do not like a thumb safety on their firearm. My uncle is a LEO and he scoffs at any gun with a safety-he wont even consider having a gun with one.. With good reason. Users often forget to release the safety in a life threat situation and that means they are dead. I never forget a security camera video of a jewelry store where a robber with a revo comes in. The owner pulls an auto and starts yanking the trigger but the safety is on. The perp shoots the owner and he goes down. Then the perp picks up the auto and takes it with him.

Blackstone
May 15, 2013, 04:46 PM
I like a safety on a gun that's supposed to be carried with a round chambered and the hammer back. I don't count a Glock or any other striker fired gun in that category. Magazine disconnect is a big nono, and so is a grip safety. I might myself in a situation where I can't get a good purchase on the grip.

x_wrench
May 15, 2013, 04:55 PM
almost every gun has some sort of safety on it. whether it be a trigger actuated (Glock), thumb operated, trigger guard push button, or slide action. some of the early guns have half cock safety's on them. there are many different things that can be called "safeties". and yes, absolutely, the one between the ears is far more effective than any mechanical device that will ever be designed. personally, i do not want a gun with NO safety at all. that would mean that if the gun was loaded. it would go off whenever the trigger moved backwards far enough for the hammer to drop. period. whether it be from a drop, a fall, tripping, bumping the trigger, many, many different things could cause a firearm to discharge without some sort of safety. that, is not safe for most people. one, properly functioning, simple safety is all a firearm needs. period. any more only pleases the anti-gun crowd, and lawyers. as far as a magazine disconnect "safety", those are THE MOST WORTHLESS, IDIOTIC thing anyone ever came up with. the only people that i have even read about that detest all safeties are dangerous game professional hunters. and in their line of work, for them, i might agree.

Certaindeaf
May 15, 2013, 05:13 PM
Anybody that has a Browning Hi-Power knows how to use a punch. true story

12many
May 15, 2013, 05:46 PM
Alot of it depends what you use the gun for. Police may be different than casual user. Hiker different then bear hunter.

I like safeties, but hate it when I try to fire on a pesky gopher and I forgot to turn off the safety. Uggg. :banghead:

gym
May 15, 2013, 05:47 PM
2 sides to every debate. It all depends on what "you" prefer. It's that simple.

Deus Machina
May 15, 2013, 05:51 PM
I like having a safety, as long as it's not mandatory to use it.
For instance, my old S&W 469. It had a slide-mounted safety (not my choice) that dropped the hammer. Remove it and it's into DA mode. So I carried it with the safety off, stored it and transported it with it on. My plinkers tend to have them.
I demand a safety on a gun with a light trigger, but that usually means SA and I prefer my DA anyway. My current carry guns, a Taurus 85 and a CZ PCR, don't have them, and it just feels right.
Overall, yes, it depends on the design. I just prefer designs that don't have or require them. It's just one more possible distraction or something else to snag.

Texan Scott
May 15, 2013, 06:30 PM
Some people think of the safety failing in the sense that the gun might fire "accidentally" (meaning, usually, due to human stupidity). It can also fail the "other" way ... the gun won't fire when needed, and so becomes useless. That seems to be your uncle's worry. He might have a macho-man infallibility complex; then again, he might just be a lot more knowledgeable and experienced with guns than you realize, and lack the patience and/or verbal skills to explain that to your full understanding and satisfaction. It could be a bit of both, I suppose.

Personally, ALL of my guns have some kind of safety mechanism; it's the RARE modern firearm that has NONE. Most of mine however, have omly the automatic internal sort that renders the gun fumble resistant (nothing is "drop proof"- never trust a mechanical safety 100% either way- that may be your uncle's point).

These internal safeties are designed to DISENGAGE WHEN THE TRIGGER IS PULLED. The gun is safe unless I MEAN IT NOT TO BE (in which case the safety is unwanted) or unless I'm a being a COMPLETE FOOL at the time (in which case, being fool enough to point a loaded gun at my foot with my finger on the trigger, the safety is likely inadequate to protect me from my own foolishness. They aren't, after all, "fool proof").

Trunk Monkey
May 15, 2013, 06:40 PM
Anybody that has a Browning Hi-Power knows how to use a punch. true story

Care to elaborate?

Potatohead
May 15, 2013, 06:54 PM
You know what a rifle is? Most all of them have a "safety". A gun is a gun, unless it's your uncle preaching?
I do know what a rifle is but you're always being sarcastic so i wasnt sure. It was a "wonky" statement..hehehehehehe

Potatohead
May 15, 2013, 06:55 PM
I think it's personal preference. Both of my carry guns have decockers but no manual safety I like the simplicity of pull, point , shoot

And yes you can turn of the green light in your user CP go to user options, edit options and it will give you the option of being "invisible"
thx. didnt see that. ive been accused by my dr of having adhd

Potatohead
May 15, 2013, 06:58 PM
With good reason. Users often forget to release the safety in a life threat situation and that means they are dead. I never forget a security camera video of a jewelry store where a robber with a revo comes in. The owner pulls an auto and starts yanking the trigger but the safety is on. The perp shoots the owner and he goes down. Then the perp picks up the auto and takes it with him.
OMG thats awful. And when i first started reading the sentence i was thinking "who would forget to disengage the safety" but i guess anything can happen

Potatohead
May 15, 2013, 07:00 PM
Magazine disconnect is a big nono

I can easily understand the grip safety, but why would i not have a mag in my gun and need to shoot? i guess dropping one reloading maybe

Potatohead
May 15, 2013, 07:01 PM
Alot of it depends what you use the gun for. Police may be different than casual user. Hiker different then bear hunter.

I like safeties, but hate it when I try to fire on a pesky gopher and I forgot to turn off the safety. Uggg. :banghead:
good point

M-Cameron
May 15, 2013, 07:08 PM
quite frankly, i think safeties are a liability....

if you cant carry/ handle/ transport/ ect. your gun in a matter that wont pull the trigger, do not keep a round in the chamber.

as an engineer, there is one thing ive learned about any sort of mechanical safety device......it will always fail right when you dont need it to.

i dont want to be in a situation where i need to take a shot, and my gun wont fire because the safety was bumped on.

Potatohead
May 15, 2013, 07:08 PM
then again, he might just be a lot more knowledgeable and experienced with guns than you realize, and lack the patience and/or verbal skills to explain that to your full understanding and satisfaction


yes ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I ask him a bazillion questions. he's usually still answering the last one when i get to the next one. and he is a cop who has been stabbed and shot at, so i shouldnt have jumped to that conclusion (macho)

larryh1108
May 15, 2013, 07:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Certaindeaf
Anybody that has a Browning Hi-Power knows how to use a punch. true story

Care to elaborate?

You can easily remove the magazine safety with a few, well placed punches. I'm sure that's what he meant.

45_auto
May 15, 2013, 07:15 PM
quite frankly, i think safeties are a liability....

What kind of handgun do you carry that doesn't have a safety? Only one I can think of offhand would be a cocked, original-pattern (no transfer bar) Colt-type single action.

M-Cameron
May 15, 2013, 07:17 PM
What kind of handgun do you carry that doesn't have a safety? Only one I can think of offhand would be a cocked, original-pattern (no transfer bar) Colt-type single action.

Ruger SP101........while it may be a safety feature, i dont really view a transfer bar as a traditional 'safety', as it really cant be actuated on and off.

SabbathWolf
May 15, 2013, 07:32 PM
Safety or No safety is not a mechanical issue to me.
It's a training and familiarization issue.

How many AR or AK owners run around saying, "This sucks. I wish my rifle did NOT have a safety?" Not many I'll bet.

If you are carrying a handgun that you intend to defend your life with...and it has a safety on it....
TRAIN with it.
If you don't, and you have a problem later on... You cannot blame the Safety when you should be blaming "yourself" instead.

BullfrogKen
May 15, 2013, 07:44 PM
I'm entirely comfortable with frame-mounted safeties on handguns, such as those on the 1911 and Browning Hi-Power.

I detest frame slide-mounted safeties.

The idea that one of those - a frame-mounted safety - could be turned on by accident reflects a lack of training or familiarity with the way those work and should be used.

Anyway, if you don't want one, don't have a gun that has one. But when it comes to 1911s and Hi-Powers, don't suggest its a liability to me because you won't take the time to train with it and learn how to manage that gun properly.

We call that projection. Yes, its true you can't trust yourself to manage that safety properly. Its also true I can trust myself to make one shoot when I want it to, even under stress.

HOOfan_1
May 15, 2013, 07:50 PM
I can easily understand the grip safety, but why would i not have a mag in my gun and need to shoot? i guess dropping one reloading maybe

Mag disconnect safety is something many law enforcement agencies want.

Police have to get close and personal with suspects, to search them, to question them, to cuff them. If a suspect grabs the officers gun, when the officer is not expecting it, in the struggle, the officer can drop the magazine and prevent the gun from being operable.

Those of us who are not police officers, preferably are not getting close and personal with those who wish to do us harm.


TRAINING is the key. If you don't have a manual safety, train to keep the gun safe. If you have a manual safety, train to disengage it when you need to fire your gun.


Bullfrog Ken, I suspect that you mean you detest "SLIDE" mounted safeties

BullfrogKen
May 15, 2013, 08:00 PM
Yes thanks for pointing that out. That's what I get for multi-tasking.

johnandersonoutdoors
May 15, 2013, 08:02 PM
My experience began with a break barrel rifle shooting pellets. Then a Ruger 10/22 and a Remington 700 in 30-06. I always used the safety and disengaged when ready to shoot starting from the very beginning. Although along the way you realize that if you completely follow gun safety rules, the safeties aren't really needed.

Then came the 870 in 12 gauge and again I always used the safety. Well I say always but I follow the rules of gun safety so much that I guess sometimes I wouldn't use the rifle/shotgun safety.

I had known for years that I would start handgun ownership with a revolver for concealed carry, so it was gonna be a snubbie and of course they don't have safeties. Got a j frame s&w. From the very get go, as with any gun, I would keep my finger on the frame until I was ready to shoot. It didn't bother me at all that it doesn't have a safety, but I remember thinking to myself several times early on that it was different. However, as I said earlier, I knew what I was getting into. I was very happy with my revolver. Another 38 special revolver, this time in a larger frame, came into my collection and I am glad it doesn't have a safety.

This past fall I decided it was time to add a semi-auto to carry and use in IDPA. I knew I would be searching for a gun with no slide safety. Turns out I didn't want a grip safety either, or a magazine disconnect safety once I thought about it. The full size m&p9 without the safeties became mine in November. Finger off the trigger until I am ready to shoot and gun pointed in a safe direction at all times, or holstered as I said before, and I don't see how a person can go wrong.

I think that if I am going to need to deploy a handgun in 1 second flat to avoid serious injury to myself then I don't want a safety on it. The only quality we must have is a gun that doesn't fire on its own or when dropped accidentally.

oneounceload
May 15, 2013, 08:46 PM
Mostly it is knee jerk reaction by people whose gun knowledge comes from the internet. I love guns with redundant safeties so I can choose to use them or not. Most of my guns have hammers and safeties. Many will say that it is possible that your safety can engage without you knowing it. It is also possible that Pam Anderson will marry me and we will honeymoon in my yacht in Monte Carlo. A lot of things are possible but unlikely.


While YOU may like (or need to have) all types of safeties, berating others who do not is rather childish and immature, not very High Road.

I would venture my gun knowledge is as good, and probably better, than yours or other keyboard commandos - and none of it came from the idiotweb.

NONE of my HD/SD handguns have a safety - that includes revolvers and semis from snubs to Glocks to HKs

NONE of my shotguns have an automatic safety, even my field guns, never needed one, and still don't. I'll put the safety on if I should so desire

230RN
May 15, 2013, 09:01 PM
Magazine safeties are a design defect in my opinion, and any gun with one should be sent back to the factory for "repair." I have two guns with mag safeties and I hate that "feature." That's just me, though.

Potatohead
May 15, 2013, 09:13 PM
Mag disconnect safety is something many law enforcement agencies want.

Police have to get close and personal with suspects, to search them, to question them, to cuff them. If a suspect grabs the officers gun, when the officer is not expecting it, in the struggle, the officer can drop the magazine and prevent the gun from being operable.

Those of us who are not police officers, preferably are not getting close and personal with those who wish to do us harm.


TRAINING is the key. If you don't have a manual safety, train to keep the gun safe. If you have a manual safety, train to disengage it when you need to fire your gun.


Bullfrog Ken, I suspect that you mean you detest "SLIDE" mounted safeties
thanks for answering my question although im not sure i will never be grappling with anyone in a self defense situation-makes some sense to me ya know...really cant see the drawback is what im trying to say i guess. so maybe it comes down to this when choosing :do i have more of a chance of getting up close and personal w someone and needing to drop my mag or more of a chance that im going to need to fire w no clip in a firefight?

Potatohead
May 15, 2013, 09:14 PM
Magazine safeties are a design defect in my opinion, and any gun with one should be sent back to the factory for "repair." I have two guns with mag safeties and I hate that "feature." That's just me, though.
hehehe

dmazur
May 15, 2013, 09:15 PM
you can choose to just not use the thumb safety if you have one

For some designs, I'm sure this is true. However, if you carry a 1911, Carrying Condtion 0 is not considered as safe as carrying Condition 1.

The idea is to practice with your carry weapon's manual of arms until it becomes second nature.

I have a Ruger SBH in .44 Magnum, but it isn't my choice for concealed carry. And I don't have a "mix" of different types of semi-auto handguns.

For those who practice with the 1911, the thumb safety is swept off during the presentation, before the sights are aligned. It isn't a step that has to be remembered. It becomes part of "muscle memory" (which just means you do it all the time, every time, so it becomes habit.)

For those who practice with different designs, other things may be important. For example, DA/SA semiautos may have a long initial trigger pull which must be mastered through practice.

The concern about the magazine safety has been answered by an earlier post - it isn't necessary unless you are concerned about gun retention during a wrestling match. LEO's may have to engage in this sort of behavior in the normal course of their duty, but private citizens don't make arrests.

Of course, there are those who argue that the magazine safety somehow makes a gun "safer" because it handles the situation where the magazine is dropped and the user assumes the gun is unloaded.

For this situation, I refer them to the Four Rules...

Potatohead
May 15, 2013, 09:16 PM
My experience began with a break barrel rifle shooting pellets. Then a Ruger 10/22 and a Remington 700 in 30-06. I always used the safety and disengaged when ready to shoot starting from the very beginning. Although along the way you realize that if you completely follow gun safety rules, the safeties aren't really needed.

Then came the 870 in 12 gauge and again I always used the safety. Well I say always but I follow the rules of gun safety so much that I guess sometimes I wouldn't use the rifle/shotgun safety.

I had known for years that I would start handgun ownership with a revolver for concealed carry, so it was gonna be a snubbie and of course they don't have safeties. Got a j frame s&w. From the very get go, as with any gun, I would keep my finger on the frame until I was ready to shoot. It didn't bother me at all that it doesn't have a safety, but I remember thinking to myself several times early on that it was different. However, as I said earlier, I knew what I was getting into. I was very happy with my revolver. Another 38 special revolver, this time in a larger frame, came into my collection and I am glad it doesn't have a safety.

This past fall I decided it was time to add a semi-auto to carry and use in IDPA. I knew I would be searching for a gun with no slide safety. Turns out I didn't want a grip safety either, or a magazine disconnect safety once I thought about it. The full size m&p9 without the safeties became mine in November. Finger off the trigger until I am ready to shoot and gun pointed in a safe direction at all times, or holstered as I said before, and I don't see how a person can go wrong.

I think that if I am going to need to deploy a handgun in 1 second flat to avoid serious injury to myself then I don't want a safety on it. The only quality we must have is a gun that doesn't fire on its own or when dropped accidentally.
thx for your post

Potatohead
May 15, 2013, 09:24 PM
Ive gota bail on my own thread because ABCs of reloading has just been located in the mailbox! Which brings me to a question: Are their a shortage of gun/ammo BOOKS too? geez it took forever to get here-

hso
May 15, 2013, 09:25 PM
There are those safeties that are so small as to be difficult to disengage, but most of the time people that have problems with external safeties are not training properly/adequately.

Old Guy
May 15, 2013, 09:27 PM
Let us say you carry a pistol for shooting people (Just when you have to) the rounds must go deep enough in the body, to devastate organs, modern hollow points that become sharper (Cutting) as they penetrate.

There must be a lot of these projectiles (no one hands out lists of assailants prior to the start of an event causing loud sounds to be emitted from this self defense pistol) so if you need a lot, you might, a Glock 19 with a full compliment gives you a lot. As in 16, with a spare Glock 17 magazine on the belt, next to my Surefire LED, very bright LED.

This pistol of mine, sits in a holster, were the trigger is protected, hidden.

When I want to fire a quick flood of 9mm 147g, non + P Ranger T's. No safety to miss.

You need an easy gun to shoot, that always goes bang! And again... lots of 9mm rounds.

One last word on manual safety catches! NOT!

hso
May 15, 2013, 09:40 PM
why would i not have a mag in my gun and need to shoot

If you're transitioning from a partially expended magazine to a full magazine when there is a lull in the shooting is when you'd have a moment when a round would be in the chamber and no magazine in the handgun. That moment might be when the enemy appears nearby and not being able to fire that one round in the chamber might be a critical difference between escaping intack and not.

As to the purpose of a magazine disconnect - it was introduced as a safety requirement to prevent a handgun that a handler thought was safe because no magazine was visible from firing that neglected round left in the chamber from improper handling or magazine performance. They date from the early Colt pocket pistols and it might be assumed the feature was there because of the small manual safeties and the handling of the pistols by the public to minimize the chance for a ND when the mag was out. (Of course its safe! The magazine is right here. POP!!! Ooops!)

gym
May 15, 2013, 09:44 PM
If you plan on carrying the gun for self defense purposes, it becomes an everyday task that you do unconsciously. After transitioning from revolvers and the occasional 1911, as a young man, to Glocks and just about every synthetic material that has been used along with metal, it all comes down to one thing.
You should carry one type of gun for self defense, you may have different calibers, but it's a good idea to stick to either a gun with a safety like a 1911, or a gun without a safety like a Glock.
Of course it's fine to own whatever you enjoy owning, but IMO, your carry gun should not be a rotation of half a dozen different guns that operate completely different, unless it's a double action revolver and a double action auto with no safety.
This way you won't get mixed up in a panic, should something bad go down, and you need to shoot. "Not Think" ,Just Shoot. After you carry the gun for a year you won't have to worry about what ",might" happen only what will happen.
This goes for your backup also, it should operate the same as your primary, ideally use the same ammo. IMO it's very easy for something bad to happen when you are put on the spot and have to react in a second or less, that's hard enough to do without worrying about which gun you decided to wear that day to go with your outfit. It should be one of the few constants in your life.

hso
May 15, 2013, 09:51 PM
Having trained with 1911s and BHPs the habit of sweeping the safety off on presentation fo the pistol is so engrained that I carry out that motion with whatever is in my hand.

statelineblues
May 15, 2013, 09:53 PM
Originally posted by Ranger Roberts:
Personally I don't have an issue with any particular type of safety. My duty weapon is a Glock, so when I'm not on duty my cc gun is a Glock. The main reason being that I train heavily with the Glock so I might as well stick with the same platform off duty as well as on duty. Not to say I wouldn't carry any of my other pistols but for me it's just a "muscle memory" thing.

This is why my CCW is a 1911 - I trained with it in the Army, have carried and shot them for 30 years, so dropping the safety is not an issue.

Originally posted by dmazer:
For those who practice with the 1911, the thumb safety is swept off during the presentation, before the sights are aligned. It isn't a step that has to be remembered. It becomes part of "muscle memory" (which just means you do it all the time, every time, so it becomes habit.)

scaatylobo
May 15, 2013, 09:53 PM
I see many as never having been in any form of confrontation.

They like open carry and no safetys anywhere on a fighting/combat/PDW.

I like a magazine disconnect as I know that ANYONE can have their gun wrestled from them,and IF there is a smidgeon of a chance to deactivate that firearm - then its dropping or just lowering the mag a bit to engage the safety.

I cannot imagine anyone actually using a pistol by loading one round at a time,and some pistols wont allow that anyway.

Also too many drunks and idiots will try to grab an LEO's gun.

Too many prisons have filmed prisoners practicing TAKING a gun from the holster or the hand,dont think it can happen to you ---- my prayers are with you to never find out.

having been the recepient of a couple of attempts,this is my view.

My vote is magazine disconects,and NO safetys as I was taught a DA/SA revolver and then went to a DAO semi auto.

M-Cameron
May 15, 2013, 09:59 PM
I like a magazine disconnect as I know that ANYONE can have their gun wrestled from them,and IF there is a smidgeon of a chance to deactivate that firearm - then its dropping or just lowering the mag a bit to engage the safety.


just be aware that is a 2 way street......if you can deactivate it to prevent a bad guy from using it on you, they can also deactivate it to prevent you from using it on them.

gym
May 15, 2013, 10:07 PM
I would tend to agree with HSO on the Magazine Safety, I would want the gun to be able to leave a round in the chamber while changing out mags, especially with a multi round confrontation when you lost track of exactly how many you fired, "it does happen", I want the option of changing mags with perhaps 2 or even 3 rounds still in the weapon, and the ability to fire if someone suddenly walked up on me without the mag in yet, or perhaps a check of how many rounds I had left. I think a better retention holster would take care of the possibility of someone pulling at your gun, but anything can happen. I always removed the Mag safety just because I worried about a malfunction of a part bending or sticking

dmazur
May 15, 2013, 10:11 PM
Are their a shortage of gun/ammo BOOKS too?

I'm not aware of a printed matter shortage, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was a side-effect of the increased interest in gun ownership and reloading.

However, I am aware that there are only a few reloading books available in eBook format. "The ABC's of Reloading" is one of them. (Amazon).

So, for anyone who can't find this in print, you can always get it for your Kindle...

r1derbike
May 15, 2013, 11:30 PM
I have no mag disconnect safety, but blade trigger and grip safety on my carry weapon; XD-S.

I never thought the grip safety might be an issue when, because of injury or other factor, I couldn't get full purchase on the grip. Whoever made that point, thanks. I'm going to rethink that safety for a bit, and possibly give it a few Asian karate punches as well.

dmazur
May 16, 2013, 01:56 AM
...because of injury or other factor, I couldn't get full purchase on the grip.

I believe the standard response to this concern is "weak hand drills".

Another thing to practice is one-handed magazine changes...

Bruno2
May 16, 2013, 03:03 AM
Any gun with a trigger safety only needs to be discontinued.

Agsalaska
May 16, 2013, 03:57 AM
I dont really think a lot about what safety is or is not on a gun. If you dont pull the trigger it wont fire(assuming it is a modern firearm). I carry a snub 38. My house gun is a glock 19.

My concern is, and always will be, accidental discharges by other people getting their hands on it. Those other people are right now under the age of 5. They can probably defeat any safety but they cannot chamber. So when we are on the ranch we do not, ever, leave a rifle chambered. And I do not leave a pistol anywhere they could get it. If it is not on me it is in a day safe. If it is a rifle on the mule it is not chambered and the safety is on.

But the idea that a safety is going to prevent me from an accidental discharge is BS. I wont pull the trigger. THe idea that it will somehow keep a gun safe around little kids is also BS. Whoever believes that never had kids.

coloradokevin
May 16, 2013, 06:08 AM
I didn't read all of the other responses, but here it is for me (speaking as a LEO myself):

I don't like additional things to fiddle with in a gun flight. The proper draw, stance, grip, form, etc that we all practice on the range isn't always as practical when you're rolling around in a pile of s&%t in a dark alley at 0200 hrs fighting for your life against someone who is trying to kill you. The last thing I want is another "feature" on my gun that could potentially fail to disengage when I need it to (perhaps due to a not totally proper grip on the gun, or maybe due to an injury that requires you to shoot from the weak hand) and prevent me from firing a shot that might save my life. Similarly, I don't want an external safety on the gun that can hinder me when trying to save my own life. Or, a gun that won't fire if the magazine is knocked loose, or not fully seated after a mag change, etc.

I own and operate a wide variety of guns. Obviously the most important thing is knowing how to run the gun you have. For me, I like my defensive pistols to be as simple and straightforward as possible. Your mileage may vary, but in many modern guns these "features" are added so that the manufacturer can market another gimmick to the consumer. Some features are nice, and evolution of products is generally a good thing.

It's an individual preference thing, but the bad outweighs the good to me on the features I spoke of above (again, speaking for a strictly defensive use gun).

45_auto
May 16, 2013, 06:25 AM
Finger off the trigger until I am ready to shoot and gun pointed in a safe direction at all times, or holstered as I said before, and I don't see how a person can go wrong.

That's what both the local LEO's that I know who shot themselves while re-holstering said.

As for all the posters who don't trust themselves with a manual safety on a handgun, what kind of rifle or shotgun do you prefer? Do you de-activate the safety on your home rifle or shotgun?

M-Cameron
May 16, 2013, 08:14 AM
As for all the posters who don't trust themselves with a manual safety on a handgun, what kind of rifle or shotgun do you prefer? Do you de-activate the safety on your home rifle or shotgun?

It's not so much that I don't trust myself....it's that I don't trust the safety...you can train to flip it off pretty easily... but they can fail or get bumped on, snagged on a coat, ect....... Essentially Murphy's law.

But to answer your question, if I can remove the safety without compromising the function or integrity of the gun, then yes, I remove it.

You are talking about a device who's sole purpose is to prevent you from pulling the trigger....forgive me if I don't want that any where near a gun I might need to depend on.

Armymutt
May 16, 2013, 08:49 AM
I think a lot of people don't understand the purpose of the safety. It's to prevent the weapon from going off when you don't command it to - as in drops, jarring, etc. If you pull the trigger, even unintentionally, you are commanding it to fire. A lot of people don't train enough with their firearms to be able to disengage a manual safety under stress. In a truly stressful situation, the fine motor skills are the first to go. These are what you use to disengage a safety. I've seen guys bring their M-4 up on a target and try to shoot with the safety on. They never trained in manipulating the selector switch on the way up, but rather only once they got on target. I don't know the physhology behind it, but I'm guessing there is a sensory overload once the weapon is in firing position, vs when you are bring it up. I usually only manipulated the safety when the rifle was moving up or down. I carry pistols without manual safeties because they are well protected inside a holster and the trigger cannot be manipulated by anything. Most people who have a discharge while holstering weren't looking at the weapon at the time. That's just Darwinism. There is no reason not to look at your holster while putting the weapon in it. If you are holstering, then the threat has been eliminated. I haven't seen a holster for the M-4, so it needs a manual safety because you can't positively protect the trigger.

DoubleMag
May 16, 2013, 09:14 AM
I could be wrong but it seems like a good many folks say they do not like a thumb safety on their firearm. My uncle is a LEO and he scoffs at any gun with a safety-he wont even consider having a gun with one..

Ask him about his deluxe dept. issue holster. Most likely he had to take a class on its operation alone. And, a LEOs holster is nothing about concealment, but the contrary!! These holsters cost around $100 with dept discount. LEO holsters are a safety device in themselves, with 2 or 3 things that must happen before the pistol can be drawn; the holster is an external safety. Why??? And this will be the basis for most of my following comments....No dept wants an officers pistol taken (unauthorized use), and ultimately used against them.

Also, i've heard a lot of people say they do not like a magazine disconnect safety either.

I agree, in fact thats a fleeting issue with current manufactures as far as I've seen.

I know the safety "between your ears" is the most important but
why do some folks not like safety features such as these, especially since you can choose to just not use the thumb safety if you have one? Am i missing something here? (FYI i'm still new at this so its quite possible that yes, i am missing something here).
IMHO, lack of training or, fortunately,lack of real life encounters. Again I state that, dept issue pistols...regardless of manufacturer...are now mated to a level two or three holster. F.Y.I. that means, 2 or 3 things have to be pushed, tugged, etc before the pistol will come out.

Then off duty LEOs take that same pistol i.e. GLock, and put it in an open carry / concealed holster you're asking for potential unauthorized use. If a thug whacks you in the head you will be disoriented for seconds...don't get shot with your own gun. Also ask your LEO friends if they're trained to 1)disarm an armed attacker and 2) recover their pistol (if its any type of dept), the answer will be ''yes''. Why??

Between your ears...remember...in a real encounter you will be acting defensively. The perp will be the aggressor...offensively. If the perp takes your gun from you (its actually easier then you think) and he's taking several seconds (he's already in offensive action status)jerking on the trigger instead of disengaging the safety, you have that same time to respond, flee, etc.

If you do decide to carry a firearm with/without a physical external safety I strongly suggest a concealment holster with some type of retention device, preferably a lever/button to push and not simply a snap. I also suggest training drawing your pistol, returning to holster, repeat. I also suggest further training in weapons retention & situational awareness i.e. an NRA approved course.

BTW,the big "G" doesn't condone carrying their pistol with a chambered round. So says their instructional manual.With all those internal safeties, why??

Hope that helps some!:)

bikerdoc
May 16, 2013, 09:59 AM
Whether you admire the genius of John Moses Browning or Gaston Glock learn your weapon, train with your weapon, become one with your weapon.

herrwalther
May 17, 2013, 08:40 AM
There are only two handgun safeties I find a little obnoxious:

Magazine disconnect safety
Any internal safety that needs a key (Looking at you Bersa and Taurus, key S&W)

Thumb safeties, two stage triggers, long and/or heavy trigger pulls, grip safeties etc all work. 1911s wouldn't be so popular if they weren't safe to use and carry. Same said about Glock.

MtnCreek
May 17, 2013, 11:00 AM
There are only two handgun safeties I find a little obnoxious:

Magazine disconnect safety
Any internal safety that needs a key (Looking at you Bersa and Taurus, key S&W)

I forgot about that one. IMO, a key for a firearm is ridiculous. I spent 10 mins yesterday looking for my tractor keys. I thought I had left them in the house; turned out they were in my truck console. Glad I wasn't looking for my 'pistol key'.

45_auto
May 17, 2013, 11:41 AM
As for all the posters who don't trust themselves with a manual safety on a handgun, what kind of rifle or shotgun do you prefer? Do you de-activate the safety on your home rifle or shotgun?

It's not so much that I don't trust myself....it's that I don't trust the safety...you can train to flip it off pretty easily... but they can fail or get bumped on, snagged on a coat, ect....... Essentially Murphy's law.

But to answer your question, if I can remove the safety without compromising the function or integrity of the gun, then yes, I remove it.

You are talking about a device who's sole purpose is to prevent you from pulling the trigger....forgive me if I don't want that any where near a gun I might need to depend on.

it's that I don't trust the safety...you can train to flip it off pretty easily... but they can fail or get bumped on, snagged on a coat, ect....... Essentially Murphy's law.

Interesting thought process - you don't believe that the same Murphy's Law (getting snagged, bumped, etc) applies to triggers with rounds in the chamber?

How do you transport your long guns that you might need to quickly depend on without a safety? Do you just lay them on the seat, chamber loaded, no safety? If you're using your long gun and it tactically makes sense to switch to your pistol (close quarters, vehicles, etc) do you just leave the long gun on the sling loaded with no safety? You don't believe that another piece of equipment could snag the trigger while you're moving around?

M-Cameron
May 17, 2013, 12:21 PM
Interesting thought process - you don't believe that the same Murphy's Law (getting snagged, bumped, etc) applies to triggers with rounds in the chamber?

How do you transport your long guns that you might need to quickly depend on without a safety? Do you just lay them on the seat, chamber loaded, no safety? If you're using your long gun and it tactically makes sense to switch to your pistol (close quarters, vehicles, etc) do you just leave the long gun on the sling loaded with no safety? You don't believe that another piece of equipment could snag the trigger while you're moving around?

If a gun is in a proper holster, there is no conceavible way for a trigger to be pulled or otherwise be made to fire.

As for long guns.....quite frankly I don't transport loaded long guns... I don't use my long guns "tactically" and I have no need to drive around with One in my front seat. If I'm holding my rifles, the chamber is empty until I have it shouldered and ready to shoot.

If for some reason I am In a 'tactical' situation where I need to switch to my pistol, chances are prett good switching my rifle to safe Is not going to be high on my list of concerns.

45_auto
May 17, 2013, 12:33 PM
If a gun is in a proper holster, there is no conceavible way for a trigger to be pulled or otherwise be made to fire.

Good point. As long as you can't conceive of ANY reason to ever have to take your gun out of the holster, safeties are superfluous.

I know of two local cops over the past 12 years who have shot themselves re-holstering. One Glock, one Springfield - one through the foot, the other in the calf. Luckily both were during training with FMJ ammo, neither injury was disabling.

The Glock guy had his finger on the trigger. The Springfield guy caught the strap of his Level III retention holster through the trigger guard.

Both of those happened DESPITE having safeties on the guns. I can't imagine anyone wanting to carry a cocked, loaded weapon with no safeties.

But it'll never happen to you! ;)

M-Cameron
May 17, 2013, 01:06 PM
Quote:
If a gun is in a proper holster, there is no conceavible way for a trigger to be pulled or otherwise be made to fire.
Good point. As long as you can't conceive of ANY reason to ever have to take your gun out of the holster, safeties are superfluous.

I know of two local cops over the past 12 years who have shot themselves re-holstering. One Glock, one Springfield - one through the foot, the other in the calf. Luckily both were during training with FMJ ammo, neither injury was disabling.

The Glock guy had his finger on the trigger. The Springfield guy caught the strap of his Level III retention holster through the trigger guard.

Both of those happened DESPITE having safeties on the guns. I can't imagine anyone wanting to carry a cocked, loaded weapon with no safeties.

But it'll never happen to you!
Last edited by 45_auto; Today at 11:41 AM.

That's not a mechanical issue, that's a training issue.....
In the first instance, the gun fired because he had his finger in the trigger......
In the second instance, the operator wasn't paying attention...it could also be blamed on poor holster design.

You said it yourself, both guns had safeties.....so it wasn't lack of the safety feature that caused the ADs so your examples are really quite pointless for your argument.

The fact that you can have an AD on a gun with a safety doesn't prove that a gun without a safety is any more dangerous...... All it proves is that you can have an AD on a gun with a safety.

Potatohead
May 18, 2013, 10:43 AM
I could be wrong but it seems like a good many folks say they do not like a thumb safety on their firearm. My uncle is a LEO and he scoffs at any gun with a safety-he wont even consider having a gun with one..

Ask him about his deluxe dept. issue holster. Most likely he had to take a class on its operation alone. And, a LEOs holster is nothing about concealment, but the contrary!! These holsters cost around $100 with dept discount. LEO holsters are a safety device in themselves, with 2 or 3 things that must happen before the pistol can be drawn; the holster is an external safety. Why??? And this will be the basis for most of my following comments....No dept wants an officers pistol taken (unauthorized use), and ultimately used against them.

Also, i've heard a lot of people say they do not like a magazine disconnect safety either.

I agree, in fact thats a fleeting issue with current manufactures as far as I've seen.

I know the safety "between your ears" is the most important but
why do some folks not like safety features such as these, especially since you can choose to just not use the thumb safety if you have one? Am i missing something here? (FYI i'm still new at this so its quite possible that yes, i am missing something here).
IMHO, lack of training or, fortunately,lack of real life encounters. Again I state that, dept issue pistols...regardless of manufacturer...are now mated to a level two or three holster. F.Y.I. that means, 2 or 3 things have to be pushed, tugged, etc before the pistol will come out.

Then off duty LEOs take that same pistol i.e. GLock, and put it in an open carry / concealed holster you're asking for potential unauthorized use. If a thug whacks you in the head you will be disoriented for seconds...don't get shot with your own gun. Also ask your LEO friends if they're trained to 1)disarm an armed attacker and 2) recover their pistol (if its any type of dept), the answer will be ''yes''. Why??

Between your ears...remember...in a real encounter you will be acting defensively. The perp will be the aggressor...offensively. If the perp takes your gun from you (its actually easier then you think) and he's taking several seconds (he's already in offensive action status)jerking on the trigger instead of disengaging the safety, you have that same time to respond, flee, etc.

If you do decide to carry a firearm with/without a physical external safety I strongly suggest a concealment holster with some type of retention device, preferably a lever/button to push and not simply a snap. I also suggest training drawing your pistol, returning to holster, repeat. I also suggest further training in weapons retention & situational awareness i.e. an NRA approved course.

BTW,the big "G" doesn't condone carrying their pistol with a chambered round. So says their instructional manual.With all those internal safeties, why??

Hope that helps some!:)
thanks

Old Guy
May 19, 2013, 05:39 AM
When I first started to compete in IPSC/USPSA, my match pistol was a 1911 Colt .45, carry pistol was a LW Commander.

Missed the safety in a big match! Went to Glock 19, for everything!

45_auto
May 19, 2013, 08:30 AM
You need to talk to m-cameron about getting the safety on that Glock removed. No telling when it's going to crap out on you.

But to answer your question, if I can remove the safety without compromising the function or integrity of the gun, then yes, I remove it.

You are talking about a device who's sole purpose is to prevent you from pulling the trigger....forgive me if I don't want that any where near a gun I might need to depend on.

Lateck
May 19, 2013, 01:00 PM
I prefer having safeties, just me.
Now for me it is also in case any one else ever happened to get my firearm from me. That safety may give me a second or two to get it back.
I read in a magazine back in the 80's of a street test where they asked a number of people to come in and shoot.
The average time to pick up and fire a revolver vis semi auto
was 8 seconds quicker. With one person taking over a minute just to fire the SA.

Yes, I know one should NEVER leave a loaded firearm available!!!! But just in case..... :confused:

My thoughts.

Lateck,

230RN
May 19, 2013, 06:25 PM
MtnCreek:

Any internal safety that needs a key (Looking at you Bersa and Taurus, key S&W)

I forgot about that one, too. Every once in a while (not often enough) I stick the keys in them and make sure they're all the way off. I've often wondered if there was an easy way to lock them "off" without buggering up the gun itself.

But I always have the keys with me. (Taurus lowest, S&W a little up and to the right of it.)

Terry, 230RN

beatledog7
May 19, 2013, 07:04 PM
The gun I'm carrying will be set to fire with just a trigger pull--one switch to bang.

No cocked and locked carry for me, and that's just a preference based on the above philosophy. I carry DA revolvers. I carry a Glock. I have pistols that have decockers, and if I carry one of them, it's decocked and ready to fire in DA, safety off.

Those that are DA/SA and have no decocker or are SA only are range guns. I can safely lower the hammer on such a gun, but there's no need since I have carry options that don't require it.

For me, a magazine disconnect is neither here nor there.

coloradokevin
May 21, 2013, 01:53 PM
Thumb safeties, two stage triggers, long and/or heavy trigger pulls, grip safeties etc all work. 1911s wouldn't be so popular if they weren't safe to use and carry. Same said about Glock.

I don't mean to disparage the 1911, as it is a timeless classic in the world of shooting. But, the 1911 is also a 100-year-old design that some folks cling to just a little too much (the proprietor of one shop I'm aware of locally thinks that you're an idiot of you don't carry a 1911). Despite the fact that the 1911 is an enduring design that was WELL ahead of its time when it debuted, it does have some problems. I've seen the grip safety issue cause people to have problems during qualifications at our police range, under the comparatively low stress environment of shooting at paper. I also have a friend who's an IPSC grand master who paid to have his grip safety heavily modified on his gun so that he wouldn't (again) run into problems of the safety not disengaging on his competition gun (a 1911 on steroids).

I like 1911's, but they aren't perfect, and the design isn't perfect.


I think a lot of people don't understand the purpose of the safety. It's to prevent the weapon from going off when you don't command it to - as in drops, jarring, etc.

Indeed. And many modern combat/defensive handguns are designed in such a manner that they don't need such an external safety to be "drop safe". The Glocks are obviously a classic example of this: you can drop them or hit them with a hammer and they aren't going to "just go off".

That's what both the local LEO's that I know who shot themselves while re-holstering said.

Well, finger-in-trigger-guard while reholstering is a sure way to buy yourself a racing stripe down your strong side leg. This has happened to a lot of folks, including law enforcement officers (and guys on my own department). We had to carry Glocks with "NY Triggers" for about 10 years thanks to a few people doing that. But, that is 100% a user error issue, and NOT a problem with the gun.

herrwalther
May 22, 2013, 08:26 AM
I agree that the 1911 isn't a perfect design. And I don't think any design is perfect. For instance my biggest issue with the 1911 is capacity. Your standard .45 1911 will carry 7 or 8 in the magazine. A few special examples such as Para P14 is a double stack at 14. I also wish more companies could perfect 3 inch barrels on a 1911 style for more compact frames. And easier disassemble process. Even with these gripes I still like the platform. It is all about how you train with it.

breakingcontact
May 22, 2013, 12:53 PM
Thumb safety...yes.

Mag disconnect...no.

Old Guy
May 23, 2013, 04:54 AM
Handguns are for defense, yes I know there are target pistols, hunting revolvers, ad in finite um. Or how ever the Latin goes, but the basic use of the one hand gun, is defense of self, and family.

This defense is not leisurely work! No go to the trunk of your car, or your closet mounted safe to extract that 12 gauge pump, or Semi Auto 5.56 rifle.

This is end of shift at 0 dark 30, trudging across the 711 parking lot, for that forgotten Jug of Milk! Meeting a wild eyed, drugged up teen, and his .25 caliber Jennings!
Who just wants your Jeep, with the garage opener, with convenient GPS to lead him to your House, and sleeping Wife and baby's!

That's when that Glock 19 comes from under your coat, no safety catch to miss, no grip safety to crap out on you, just a tinny plastic center to that 5lb trigger to defeat.

And when your ears stop ringing, and you stop beating your self up, and know beyond a shadow of a doubt you had no choice, but to unleash that burst of 9mm rounds. You will thank the design of that pistol, that gave you that one second solution, to a problem not of your making.

1911Tuner
May 23, 2013, 06:25 AM
And the debate rages on.

I've seen the grip safety issue cause people to have problems during qualifications at our police range,

And this doesn't apply to all people. A small percentage of pistol shooters have this problem due to their individual hands' configuration. Most people never experience it.

I had a discussion with a guy over the relative "safety" of a cocked and locked 1911. He was convinced that it would discharge in the holster...safety or no safety...and nothing would convince him otherwise.

I suggested that he perform an experiment.

Cock an unloaded pistol and leave the safety in the FIRE position. Carry it around in a holster for a month, and keep it in the holster even when he wasn't wearing it. At the end of the trial period he would tell me how many times the hammer fell.

It never did. This also didn't sway him from his belief that the gun would somehow function differently with a loaded chamber.

This illustrates two things. One is that a cocked and locked 1911 won't fire itself, despite the cocked hammer...and two is that there are some people who are so invested in their beliefs that they refuse to be swayed, despite all evidence to the contrary.

The manual safety on the 1911 isn't there for carrying cocked and locked. It was added as a final modification on request by the US Cavalry primarily for the purpose of safely reholstering under stress, with the assumption that the pistol would be redrawn shortly afterward.

Carry on!

Old Guy
May 23, 2013, 09:49 AM
Reference a 1911 firing without the trigger being pressed!

I was acting as a CRO at the World Shoot USPSA/IPSC in Florida in 1986.

My portion of this very large match in Orlando, was the Standards! Every body hatted officiating the standards.

It was allowed to replace the magazine, without asking a Range Officer, providing the gun was not drawn from the holster.

John Sale, a very experienced shooter, did just that, standing on the line...His Colt .45 ACP, 1911, went off, as he banged the magazine home!

The round went into the sandy ground, did not hit the shooter. John was Disqualified, had to be, that was the rule.

I, and others stated emphatically that the pistol was home in the holster, trigger hidden from being touched, or seen.

The pistol was unloaded, and delivered to a gun smith, with the magazine.

Verdict, as the trigger system on a 1911 goes around the magazine, when the magazine is seated, it was shown, and duplicated, in the shop, that sand on the magazine, pulled the trigger, released the sear, bypassing the grip safety.

Mr. Sale was allowed to continue, the DQ was cancelled, but he lost the standards portion of the shoot.

I had no say in that verdict, him loosing the standards.

Patrick Gookin
May 23, 2013, 10:33 AM
Verdict, as the trigger system on a 1911 goes around the magazine, when the magazine is seated, it was shown, and duplicated, in the shop, that sand on the magazine, pulled the trigger, released the sear, bypassing the grip safety.

I don't see how that could've happened. The Grip Safety is supposed to physically block the trigger from movement. The competitor must've filed off the protrusion on the front side of the grip safety, disabling it permantently. Either that, or the grip safety was being depressed while the magazine was being inserted into the gun.

1911Tuner
May 23, 2013, 11:02 AM
I don't see how that could've happened. The Grip Safety is supposed to physically block the trigger from movement.

That can happen when the corner of the disconnect protrudes through the back of the magwell, and the magazine contacts it as it's slammed in. It's rare, and it requires a mechanical/spec problem...but it can happen. Most of the time, it "stages" the sear, and the telltale indication is a scary light trigger on the first round after a mag change.

I've only known of one pistol firing on a hard mag change, and the owner said that it was the first and only time it had ever done it...but he did reveal that he'd experienced a light trigger on the first round following a vigorous reload.

Most often, neither malfunction is ever noticed or causes a problem unless the magazine is really slammed in hard. I found it once during a teardown for cleaning on a pistol that the owner had used for years without issue. A few strokes with a file to round the corner of the disconnect took care of it.

Old Guy
May 23, 2013, 04:39 PM
Well Gent's I saw it happen, his left hand was cupping the rear sight, right palm slammed the magazine in.... BANG!

Skribs
May 23, 2013, 04:43 PM
My personal opinion is that the simplest option is the best. The less actions I have to take when its down to the wire, the better.

On the other hand, some people value redundancy higher. For these people, simplicity can still be achieved by only getting weapons with similar safeties.

Others like a variety of options so they can maintain muscle memory on all the options.

All viewpoints have their merits, but because this is the internet mine is best.

JRH6856
May 23, 2013, 06:36 PM
Well Gent's I saw it happen, his left hand was cupping the rear sight, right palm slammed the magazine in.... BANG!

My money is on Tuner's explanation and not "sand on the magazine". :scrutiny:

Old Guy
May 23, 2013, 10:18 PM
Well when a gunsmith tells you that is what happened? What do you do, call him a liar?

JRH6856
May 23, 2013, 10:35 PM
I would tell him just what I wrote.

If he verifies that is not the cause, I might consider sand...or even fairy dust. ;)

Because the grip safety physically blocks the trigger's movement, and as noted earlier, unless the grip safety is depressed (intentionally or accidentally(, or permanently deactivated (by filing or pinning, or temporarily by taping or a rubber band), the trigger will not move enough to trip the sear. Can't do it with sand, can't do it with gravel. You would need to pound it with a really big rock. Several times.

his left hand was cupping the rear sight,

Where was his thumb? Was it on the safety or the safety tang? If so, slamming hte mag home may well have pressed the grip safety against his thumb. But then, where was the thumb safety? Why was it off safe during the holstered reload? In order for what you say happend to have happened, two safey systems had to be defeated, one intentionally so, the other intentionally or accidentally.

If the gun had been intentionally rendered unsafe, the shooter should have been DQd.

But even the magazine tripping the disconnect is an iffy proposition when the thumb safety is set because it locks the sear to the hammer. But depending on tolerances, it could happen as Tuner described.

1911Tuner
May 24, 2013, 05:56 AM
Sand on the magazine pulling the trigger? :rolleyes: Oh, please.

9mmfan
May 24, 2013, 06:01 AM
Scoff or don't. If you carry a gun with a safety, you should know it. Sweep it off with the draw, beginning of the stroke or end. Practice makes perfect. Just know whether or not you aim to shoot once it is level.

Old Guy
May 24, 2013, 09:51 AM
Well Gentlemen, I am not a Gunsmith, just a lowly Glock Armorer, my job at that World Shoot was to officiate, I did, the safety catch was on, on every .45 ACP on the line, all twenty contestants.

The safety committee gave a decision, who was I, a lowly Canadian (now a US Citizen!) to argue with them. It certainly made the shooters day.

All I know for sure, the pistol was fully in the holster, trigger not seen.

For those enlightened Yanks who know the Liverpool terminology, I am off downstairs for a Bacon Butty!
And with a nod to my adopted Country, Coffee, not Tea.

JRH6856
May 24, 2013, 11:08 AM
I am off downstairs for a Bacon Butty!
And with a nod to my adopted Country, Coffee, not Tea.

Well, that's something we can agree on. I just finished one. :D

1911Tuner
May 24, 2013, 02:52 PM
All I know for sure, the pistol was fully in the holster, trigger not seen.

Not doubtin' your word. I know it can happen...but not from sand on the magazine. There was something wrong with the pistol's internals. That's a spec/dimensional problem...not a design problem.

herrwalther
May 26, 2013, 11:45 AM
I don't play around with my 1911 often since the one I have is a prima donna safe queen. Seriously it has its own dehumidifier. But if some sand in the magazine would cause them to fire, there would be lots of missing big toes from WWII, Korea, and Vietnam vets. The few 1911 misfires I have seen were caused by the best thing about the 1911: that SA trigger. The popular Youtube gentleman (name escapes me at the moment) shot himself in the thigh with a 1911. Watching the video on slow motion shows his finger in the trigger. He also explained he was using a Thumbdrive holster. While I like the Thumbdrive, I think it is the worst holster to use for a 1911. It uses a thumb button release and on a 1911 they are really close to each other.

RussellC
May 26, 2013, 11:52 PM
As to the life and death situation and the poster who commented that if you were ready to fire and the safety was on, it would only take a second or two...

One one thousand, two one thousand....2 seconds. I recently saw a study that stated that the average person could close 7 yards and deliver a fatal stab wound in about a second and a half...

Love my Glock!
Russellc

breakingcontact
May 27, 2013, 04:17 AM
How in the world does sweeping a safety off take 2 seconds...or even 1?

dmazur
May 27, 2013, 07:46 AM
See post #99.

It takes me about 0.5 sec, during the presentation.

If you don't have time to get familiar with a safety, carry something else. But the fault is the apathy of the owner.

With practice, safeties are not a concern.

I read of one prospective 1911 owner who thought he'd save time by carrying in Condition 0 (cocked safety off). This is apples and oranges. If you want a Glock, get a Glock.

Regardless of your choice, you should understand it completely.

1911Tuner
May 27, 2013, 07:52 AM
Carrying a 1911 in Condition Zero is neither here nor there. The gun isn't going to fire unless the trigger is pulled, and as long as it's not held in a firing grip, the trigger can't be pulled...assuming a functioning grip safety.

The thumb safety wasn't added to the pistol for carrying cocked and locked. The first 8 prototypes that were submitted didn't even have a manual safety. The manual safety was the final modification.

dmazur
May 27, 2013, 11:13 AM
Yes, that is correct. And the protocol was to carry with hammer down (now called Condition 2), using that nice big spur hammer to ready the pistol. Soldiers were used to cocking SA revolvers and this was similar. At least, that's what I've read.

Condition 1 is most definitely modern. (Cooper?)

But so are bobbed hammers and the reluctance to carry in Condition 2.

I agree that a properly fitted grip safety protects the trigger, except for the rare operator errors like retention strap through trigger guard. And then multiple safeties pay off.

Old Guy
May 28, 2013, 07:56 AM
The reason I changed from 1911, in IPSC, to a Glock 17, missing the safety catch at a big USPSA match, many years ago. Never happened before. But once was quite enough.

Since moving to Orlando, Glock 19. Every day carry, also IDPA match pistol.
I know where this pistol shoots.

Gun Runnerz
May 29, 2013, 02:19 AM
Well there's two schools of thought. I can understand why someone would prefer not to have a manual safety. It is another step to accomplish before you're shooting, but if you've trained for it then it should be a big deal. I also see the validity in the redundant safeties argument.

Life During Wartime
May 29, 2013, 10:59 PM
A pistol on safety is not immediately shootable. Some people don't like this. And while it is true that they can just leave it off safety all the time, when you expect a pistol to go bang and maybe because it got caught on something and accidentally put on safe and it doesn't fire, that's not a good situation. That is most likely a fear however than a probabilistic event.

My obsrevation:
People that don't like safeties generally like Glock "Safe Action Pistols" while people that do generally like 1911's.

My preference:
I like having manual safeties.

The biggest advantage of having a magazine disconnect is in the event of a hand to hand fight over the gun, you drop the mag and make the gun inoperable until you can get it back. If you get the gun back, you load it with a spare mag and boom the bad dude is hopefully incapacitated.
The biggest disadvantage to it is, you have to have a mag to fire it. This is somewhat of a non-issue if you bought the gun new, but on some older mod.s that might not have available magazines, it can be problematic to find mags to shoot it. Magazine disconnects are also rather annoying when you are cleaning or training with your gun.

justice06rr
May 29, 2013, 11:11 PM
Mostly it is knee jerk reaction by people whose gun knowledge comes from the internet. I love guns with redundant safeties so I can choose to use them or not. Most of my guns have hammers and safeties. Many will say that it is possible that your safety can engage without you knowing it. It is also possible that Pam Anderson will marry me and we will honeymoon in my yacht in Monte Carlo. A lot of things are possible but unlikely.

Your brain may be the most important safety but unfortunately it is not the best. If it were we would not have so many safety devices in our lives and would not be reading about so many unintentional discharges. We are human and therefore subject to mental errors and those who cavalierly say keep your finger off the safety should check to see how telling someone to drive safe works.


^ I like this guy!

Safeties are there for a reason. Which is also why shotguns, AR15's, AK's, and many other firearms have safeties. Use it if you like, don't use it if you don't. But don't use it as a lame excuse that "I won't have a gun with an external safety". TRAINING IS KEY.

I hate wearing a seatbelt, but hey its a safety feature right?

I also hate wearing a helmet when I ride my motorcycle, but I do it anyway. I see plenty of other cruiser riders without one though...

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