AR-10 Extraction problems.


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tote4570
May 18, 2013, 02:59 PM
My buddy has a Bushmaster AR-10. It shot great but left dents in the brass. It was sent off to Bushmaster and returned doing the same thing. A local gunsmith worked on it and said he did a headspace job. The dents are gone out of the brass now, but the gun stovepipes every 2nd or 3rd round. We have tried different magazines and different ammo. The gun and bolt have been cleaned.

He called the local smith back about the extraction problems and instead of taking another look he told us to get a new extractor spring. I am hunting down a spring now but was wondering if anyone knew any other possible causes of this. Again, It functioned properly before ever being worked on and just left dents in the brass.

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briansmithwins
May 18, 2013, 03:28 PM
Stove piping typically isn't a extraction failure, it's a ejection failure.

Strip and clean the bolt, paying special attention to the ejector. If it still stove pipes I'd try replacing the ejector and spring.

It's possible that the extractor is losing control of the case before it's ejected. You can also try a new spring and add a o-ring for increased tension.

What length of barrel and gas system does this rifle have?

BSW

tote4570
May 18, 2013, 03:36 PM
I believe the barrel is 16"

briansmithwins
May 18, 2013, 03:50 PM
Short handguard?

BSW

mtrmn
May 18, 2013, 04:30 PM
ALL my AR types leave dents in the brass. I can apply a piece of self-adhesive velcro (the fuzzy half) to the brass deflector and the dents go away. But I usually don't worry about it. I'd rather have damaged waste products than a constipated weapon. Maybe he needs to undo whatever he did. IF it's undoable....

Just what would a "headspace job" consist of anyway? AFAIK headspace is pretty much fixed on an AR once the barrel extension (the back end of the barrel with the locking lugs) is installed.

I reload all my ammo and I don't concern myself with dented brass, unless it's REAL bad. If the dent doesn't fix itself in the resizing die, it will go away when I shoot it the next time....and the gun will replace the old dent with a new one. To me it signifies good, violent and positive extraction/ejection--a very good thing compared to your present problem.

tote4570
May 18, 2013, 05:01 PM
It has a full length Daniel defense hand guard.

The local smith referred to a heads pacing job as shaving a little off of one side of the bolt.

We are planning on getting a new spring first.

SilentScream
May 18, 2013, 05:33 PM
Your best bet I think now is to take that compromised bolt to the nearest river/lake/ocean and sling it out as far as you can. Get a new bolt and rock on.

briansmithwins
May 18, 2013, 08:31 PM
The local smith referred to a heads pacing job as shaving a little off of one side of the bolt

Don't use that bolt any more. The bolt should be made from hardened steel and then shot peened. Shot peening is critical as it leaves a compressed 'skin' of steel that resists crack formation. Crack formation is why ARs loose locking lugs from their bolts and break.

I'd also find a new 'smith'.

BSW

rcmodel
May 18, 2013, 09:16 PM
+3

NO so called gunsmith would 'shave off' the bolt to do a so called 'headspace job' that had nothing at all in the world to do with dented brass in the first place.

Your bolt is toast now.

Denting cases is the way AR-15's and AR-10's work.
They eject violently, and bounce of the receiver or brass deflector going like a raped ape when they hit it.

Fuhgeddaboudit.
That was never a problem with headspace, or anything else.

But now you need a new bolt, if not a new barrel if he ran his dull chamber reamer in it and ruined it too.

Your been had my friend.

rc

briansmithwins
May 18, 2013, 09:22 PM
To be truthful, the having pretty much started with the purchase of a Bushmaster.

If there's a buck to be made cutting a corner, Bushmaster will cut it.

BSW

mtrmn
May 18, 2013, 09:37 PM
To be fair, the gun DID work as designed until someone besides BM "fixed" a problem that never existed in the first place.
We've all collectively done quite well in troubleshooting the OP's problem without any unnecessary brand-bashing.

tote4570
May 18, 2013, 09:46 PM
Thanks for all the replies. We are going to get a new bolt and try and see if the "smith" will make it right.

mtrmn
May 18, 2013, 09:51 PM
As long as the smith only messed with the bolt, your new one SHOULD be a drop-in replacement. If he did any thing with the barrel or locking lugs, have SOMEBODY ELSE who knows what they are doing with AR's to check your headspace when you get the new bolt.

dvdcrr
May 18, 2013, 09:54 PM
Stovepipe may come from misalignment of gas block and barrel gas port. Did the smith mess with that.

dprice3844444
May 19, 2013, 09:32 AM
check the face of the extractor for any burrs,stone if needed.my personal experience when buying new ar types,is first to install those new extractor spring upgrade kits.usually eliminates any problems

tote4570
May 19, 2013, 07:58 PM
deleted for bad link

tote4570
May 19, 2013, 08:10 PM
http://s1112.photobucket.com/user/tote412/slideshow/AR10

henschman
May 20, 2013, 02:03 AM
To be truthful, the having pretty much started with the purchase of a Bushmaster.

If there's a buck to be made cutting a corner, Bushmaster will cut it.

BSW

Nah, they cut a lot less corners with their .308s than DPMS does.

jpwilly
May 20, 2013, 03:05 AM
Nah, they cut a lot less corners with their .308s than DPMS does.

Really, what proof of this do you offer?

tote4570
May 20, 2013, 11:23 AM
Can anyone tell anything from these pics? He is hoping that maybe the extractor could just be replaced.

JPG19
May 20, 2013, 11:38 AM
I'm far from an expert, but I don't see any area on that bolt that has been "shaved off"?

briansmithwins
May 20, 2013, 11:44 AM
Back side of locking lugs?

Doing that would change headspace.

BSW

tote4570
May 20, 2013, 12:52 PM
I don't have the bolt with me right now but I'll look later.
Also, it's a stovepipe and double feed all at once. The new round is ruined after the malfunction.
The rifle only has a round count of 200-250.

mtrmn
May 20, 2013, 02:14 PM
The gun worked fine at first but was sent back to the mfg to correct a PERCEIVED problem that really was a non-issue.
The mfg recognized the gun's operation as being correct and returned the gun to the owner. The owner then unwittingly verified that the gun was still operating correctly even though the he was still under the impression there was a problem.
The owner then took the gun to a "smith" and managed to convince him that the gun had a problem even though all along it was operating as designed.
The smith then performs alterations to the gun which caused the gun to have an actual malfunction from that time forward. All this in an attempt to fix a problem that never existed in the first place.

I think we can agree the above chain of events is fairly correct. So the point where the gun actually started to malfunction was when the smith worked on it.

If I were tasked with returning this gun to proper operation, I would START by reversing the actions of the smith. IF the bolt shaving story is true and nothing else was altered, I would replace the entire bolt assembly as the first step to healing.

tote4570
May 20, 2013, 08:12 PM
My friend called the "smith" today. He now claims that he didn't shave anything off the bolt, but that he held the bolt so the "gears"(locking lugs) were even and then he "adjusted the upper and lower".
We will send the rifle back to BM and let them fix it.

henschman
May 20, 2013, 11:14 PM
Really, what proof of this do you offer?

The fact that DPMS doesn't offer chrome lined barrels and mid length gas systems on any of their rifles, and Bushmasters have them standard.

stubbicatt
May 21, 2013, 08:15 AM
Sad this is happening. We have all had that horrible sinking feeling when we buy a lemon, or the rifle doesn't perform as it should.

I hope you can get this resolved to your satisfaction.

mtrmn
May 21, 2013, 04:07 PM
Sad this is happening. We have all had that horrible sinking feeling when we buy a lemon, or the rifle doesn't perform as it should.

I hope you can get this resolved to your satisfaction.
Just a reminder:
He didn't buy a lemon, just mistook normal denting of brass for a problem. The real problem came into the picture when the gun was worked on to correct the denting-which wasn't a problem. Or at least this is the best I can figure out from what we've been told. Like you I hope Bushmaster can do something with it.

kingcheese
May 21, 2013, 08:18 PM
I do believe your friend needs to get familiar with his rifle, that's not much a person can't do with a wrench, some go/no go gauges, anda few common tools, also, try to find a guy that specializes in ar, especially if you want to deal with somebody locally, and you can always ask here for conformation if your rifle is showing signs of malfunction. good luck with your gun

SilentScream
May 21, 2013, 09:33 PM
The fact that DPMS doesn't offer chrome lined barrels and mid length gas systems on any of their rifles, and Bushmasters have them standard.
Well to be fair, chrome lining is in reality an overkill for your average shooter I mean be realistic your average shooter will probably never burn out a barrel; chrome lined or otherwise as well as taken much better care of than the standard Gov't issue weapon. Just my opinion based on my many years in the industry, both on the sales end and on the repair/armorer/gunsmith side.

tote4570
July 7, 2013, 02:20 PM
Got the rifle back last week. Bushmaster said they changed the ejector and extractor springs.

BBBBill
July 7, 2013, 05:50 PM
In the photos it appears that the corners of the locking lugs are slightly chamfered.

mtrmn
July 7, 2013, 09:08 PM
So did they fix your problem by changing those springs??? In other words-- howzit shoot?

tote4570
July 8, 2013, 12:39 AM
Haven't shot yet. Will try soon

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