F Class Scope, MOA or MIL?


PDA






stubbicatt
May 20, 2013, 10:17 PM
Guys. Thinking of taking up F Class shooting, and wonder whether I will be better served with MOA or MIL adjustments? Is there a reticle that works better than others in this application? First or Second Focal Plane?

Thanks in advance.

If you enjoyed reading about "F Class Scope, MOA or MIL?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Rugerdog
May 20, 2013, 11:18 PM
For F-class you might be better served with a moa scope due to moa being a smaller unit of measure than a mil. I would however check and see what everyone else is using and use the same. It will help when discussing dope and other trajectory stuff. Mil vs MOA is much like english vs spanish. you will want to speak the same language as you friends. Also you will want FFP if using a scope with a grid reticle. -Art

Jim Watson
May 21, 2013, 12:14 AM
I would (Do!) use a scope with MOA adjustments and second focal plane (non-magnifying) crosshair reticle.

F-Class targets are graduated in MOA, very nearly.
For example the 600 yard target has 3" X ring, 6" ten ring, 12" nine ring, 18" eight ring, 24" seven ring, and 36" six ring comprising the black and 30" five ring in the white.
So you can adjust and/or hold off conveniently in MOA, they are right there for you.
There is no target feature in mils.

Since a half MOA will take you across a ring, the usual coarse "tactical" reticle elaborations are not a lot of help. A friend has worked with one of those Horus grids and found himself trying to split graduations to hit center.

stubbicatt
May 21, 2013, 08:25 AM
Thanks guys. So MOA it is, but if not a "mildot" or some similar reticle, how does one do hold offs? I cannot imagine cranking away at a windage knob trying to keep up with wind will be conducive to a peaceful mind. Jim Watson, what do you recommend then as far as a reticle to assist in hold offs?

Jim Watson
May 21, 2013, 10:29 AM
I use a plain crosshair - actually a Leupold duplex but I do not use the step down in crosswire thickness as an aiming point at any time.

I just say OK, the last one was a nine at 9 o'clock with a center hold and the wind hasn't changed, hold into the nine ring at 3 o'clock.

CAUTION: I am a Sharpshooter, you should be asking an Expert or Master.
USSR and 1858 this board are good target shooters.

Walkalong
May 21, 2013, 11:39 AM
If I were picking a scope strictly for F Class, I would likely go with MOA and a fine cross hair fine dot if I could find it.

As it is I went with a 2nd FP Mil Dot recticle with Mil adjustments. Thought long and hard about getting the other though. I have three other scopes with that set up (Fine cross hair dot), and really like it for target shooting.

CharlieDeltaJuliet
May 21, 2013, 01:03 PM
I did the same Walkalong, I went with a NightForce ATACR 2FP but wil a Mil-R reticle. Mil adjustments are just easier for me. Always have liked a mil-mil scope.

To the OP, find the scope reticle and adjustment combination that you are more comfortable with. Good luck and listen to these folks, they know what they are talking about.

Trent
May 21, 2013, 01:17 PM
I bought a Nightforce NXS 8-32x56 w/ Zerostop, 0.1 Mil adjustments, MLR reticle scope for F Class.

EDIT: Also nice; I no longer have to pack my spotting scope for 300 yard shooting with that rifle. :)

taliv
May 21, 2013, 03:03 PM
STRICTLY for f-class....

nightforce benchrest 12-42x with the np-2d reticle


definitely second focal plane (because it's cheap and no disadvantage)
definitely a super-fine reticle
definitely MOA turrets (because 90+% of the other people shooting f-class will be in MOA) and because it's ever so slightly finer adjustment

dubbleA
May 23, 2013, 03:06 PM
I use and support the Nightforce BR 12x42x56 with the NP-2DD. A very popular scope in F class for a reason. It's a MOA based reticle and offers enough power and clarity to disect the X ring. A modified dot with tapered horizontal lines to the side. Since the scoring rings are MOA they can be used as hold off references. The 1/8moa adjustments enable the user to make fine adjustments. I tried using a USO FFP and it simply did not work out for me, the reticle substensions were covering the X ring.

Howard Roark
May 23, 2013, 09:43 PM
Here is a tip from a high master about shooting in the wind. Pick a condition and shoot it. Keep hold offs or adjustments to a minimum.

Only shoot out of your condition when you are pushed for time. To do otherwise is tempting fate.

Sling high quality shots down range during the prevailing condition.

Walkalong
May 24, 2013, 12:35 AM
Pick a condition and shoot it........Only shoot out of your condition when you are pushed for time...........Sling high quality shots down range during the prevailing condition.Exactly the same for Benchrest, but the prevailing condition isn't always the one to shoot. It just needs to be a condition that comes around enough.

taliv
May 24, 2013, 01:17 AM
yep. easy when you have 20 min to shoot your 20 rounds. for sniper/practical/field matches, you don't get that luxury as stages are usually 30 seconds to 2 min.

Walkalong
May 24, 2013, 08:39 AM
I would enjoy that. More pressure. One thing I enjoyed about Benchrest was any one shot could blow the aggregate. Of course that was the same thing that would make you pull your hair out too.

USSR
May 24, 2013, 02:44 PM
I would (Do!) use a scope with MOA adjustments and second focal plane (non-magnifying) crosshair reticle.

+1. One other piece of advice: Don't feel that you have to go with a scope with a really high magnification range. I shot 1,000 yards F Class for years with 2 scopes that went up to 20X and 24X. And guess what, I found myself dialing the magnification down to about 18X to dial out the mirage somewhat in all cases.

Don

Jim Watson
May 24, 2013, 04:24 PM
I was comfortable in the 20-24x range unless mirage was really bad.
I got a fixed 36X for .22 benchrest and it was too much. I'd be better off with a 24X even off sandbags unless I shot a lot more than I cared to get into.

The scope makers advertise wide power range scopes that are not of a lot of use to me.
We see a lot of posts where people inquire about a rifle suitable for targets and hunting. I am not sure there is such a thing, I would not want to hump a heavy target rifle into the woods, and I would not want a light handy hunting rifle to kick me around all day on the range.
But if you don't mind the compromise, then a wide range variable would be good.

I think the scope companies are missing the boat by not offering a narrow range target variable with just enough adjustment to cover light and mirage changes. A 15-30X might do well there. But maybe the market is not large enough for them to bother with.
(March makes a 36-55X to cover all the bases at benchrest, but you would sure have to be a hard holder to use it even off an F class bipod. A friend got to shoot a string with one off an F-Open "belly benchrest" rig and said it was a very fine glass. But it is $2900, which will chill a lot of interest.)

Trent
May 25, 2013, 02:26 PM
Somewhere on my computer I have a photo of Ganymede, Callisto, Io, and Europa that I took through my Leupold spotting scope last year. While not quite as high in magnification, my nightforce scope is even clearer than my Leupold. I'm sure I would have no problem spotting the moons of Jupiter with it on a clear country night.

The quality of glass today is breathtaking.

It's hard to go wrong with any of the high end scopes, if you can stomach the cost of admission.

1858
May 25, 2013, 04:05 PM
I use a Leupold 8.5-25x50mm scope with a mil reticle and moa adjustments but the last three high end scopes I've purchased have matching units for reticles/adjustments. However, Leupold's TMR is fine enough to split the X-ring on the 300 yard target (1.4" ring) so I'm in no hurry to upgrade. That said, the moa/moa/SFP advice for an F-Class scope is great advice. If I ever decide to upgrade I'll probably buy something along the lines of the NF that taliv recommended.


yep. easy when you have 20 min to shoot your 20 rounds.

That's on overly simple analysis since it all depends on where you shoot, the typical conditions at that range and who's pulling your target.

Walkalong
May 25, 2013, 09:08 PM
I shot my second F Class match today (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=717568) and never got over 24X on my scope as the mirage was too bad.

I use a Leupold 8.5-25x50mm scopeThat sounds just about right. I wasn't happy with my 5X15X44 (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/183567/vortex-viper-hs-tactical-rifle-scope-30mm-tube-5-15x-44mm-side-focus-1-10-mil-adjustments-mil-dot-reticle-matte) (Power wise), but 32X was too much today.

taliv
May 25, 2013, 11:21 PM
That's on overly simple analysis since it all depends on where you shoot, the typical conditions at that range and who's pulling your target.

probably. but i'd say on average, if you and your pit service are remotely competent, you can be done with sighters and record shots in 12 min. that would give you more than 5 to wait out conditions.

stubbicatt
June 5, 2013, 09:46 PM
Oh Lord. I had forgotten how much fun it is to pull pits for a good shooter... may have to bust my hump, but don't have to look too far for the hole to put the spindle in, and rarely have to move the score disc more than one notch on the edge of the frame. ;)

BullfrogKen
June 6, 2013, 12:25 AM
It's very easy to pull butt duty for a good shooter. I've been to matches where the range paid a local Boy Scout troop to pull butt duty for everyone on the line. No pit changes = awesome match. It gets done very fast, and you're just enjoying the shooting without hoofing it down to the pits.

Thank you Reade Range! It's so much fun shooting there at the big matches.


Even with Boy Scouts pulling my target I could get done my sighters and 20 rounds in less than 15 minutes. The better you shoot, the less they have to search and they don't have to move the scoring disk as much. Same goes for me when I'm pulling targets. The less area I have to look for a shot, the faster your target comes back up for you.

stubbicatt
July 21, 2013, 10:31 PM
Bringing up a "nearly necro" thread.

Anybody have experience with the Sightron SIII scopes? They are only a couple hundred $$ less than the Nightforce BR, but they have a side focus/parallax adjustment rather than one on the tube, which as I am led to understand, may be helpful. Else I'd simply by the Nightforce BR series.

I have read a great deal on the Nightforce Competition by fellows who have used it, and while it was at one time my first choice, now that first hand reports are available on it, I have marked it off my list. I guess eye relief is critical, and the clarity of the image degrades significantly at higher magnifications.

If the IOR 9-36x had a simple crosshair, I believe that is what I would choose. Anybody know of people who can replace reticles? LOL.

taliv
July 22, 2013, 12:14 AM
my NF benchrest 12-42 was just fine at 42 and i used it there all the time. been a few years though. maybe they're not as good?

adjustable objective gives better optical results as far as parallax goes. side focus/parallax has a single advantage, which is that you can reach the knob without breaking your position

eye relief on any scope is going to be critical at 42 power, but to be honest, it's really not a downside, since the entire match is shot from a single position, you should replicate that position exactly for the whole match. it's not like you're moving to sitting or kneeling where your head might be naturally farther from the ocular.

LAL357
July 27, 2013, 07:33 AM
on my ftr rig i put a sightron 10x50x60 lrirmoa2 scope on it it has moa/moa with a small ill.dot in the center .i mainly dail it for what the winds are doing the most then use the moa hash marks for hold off as for power/mirage i prefer to practice with a high mirage and rarely take mine down past 38 power most of the time it stays on 50 power.

If you enjoyed reading about "F Class Scope, MOA or MIL?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!