A little Ammo Justice!


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anothernewb
May 21, 2013, 09:57 AM
Okay, I shouldn't really be proud of myself for this but here's the story:

Last night the good 'ol walmart app alerts me that 100 pack .223 and fed automatch are in stock in a semi-local walmart (20 miles away)

I snag up my stepdaughters to lend a "helping hand" to get more than the perquisite 3 boxes -(so I can stock up enough to take the grand kids out a couple times, mind you) Along the way, a pair of shooting buddies also happen to call and they head along with too. So now I have a carload of crusty old smelly guys just off work, and a pair of malcontent teens (no wifi on the highway - lol) loaded for a happy joy ride, crammed into my truck, in the rain.

Anyway, to the point. We show up at the walmart, and the shelves are, of course, empty. Manage to actually flag down a competent employee who goes off in search of said ammo. While we're waiting the "horde" shows up. I've run into this bunch before in my hometown walmart and fleet farm. There's about 10 of them, and they do the shelf raiding thing as a group. I've been behind them several times only to find that they've wiped out the supply.

True side story: I ran into them the first time saw the armloads of ammo
and begged a single box off them. The one guy laughed at me and said
"This stuff's like gold, you can buy one from me online" THAT sure made
my day. :fire:

So, MY horde is inline first and they(other horde) kinda start muscling their way to the front when the guy comes back with all 30 remaining boxes of 22. We're not the only ones there either. There's 5-6 others waiting in line too. Well, the walmart guy is a good guy, He remembers that we were in line first and tells the horde that it's first come, first serve. In the confusion, my hands are quicker than his eyes - if you catch my meaning. I only had enough muscle to pick up 18 boxes. but somehow the other people managed to have a few boxes handed back to them as we were getting our batch - if you catch my drift... I think the stock guy handed out about oh.... 30 of them before I got my 3, lol.

Well... Horde guy kinda made a stink a bit when he came up to the counter and, well, all 3 cases were empty! :what: and several other patrons all had at least one box in their hands....:evil:

Darn glad that guy doesn't know what I drive, wow, with that look he gave me - even my wife would have been impressed.

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anothernewb
May 21, 2013, 10:00 AM
I should add, while they were muscling in for .22, my 14 year old snagged the 4 remaining boxes of .223 for us.

SSN Vet
May 21, 2013, 10:05 AM
poetic justice :)

jdietz
May 21, 2013, 10:20 AM
Anothernewb,

I'm a neophyte at apps so what walmart app are you talking about?

Thanks!

anothernewb
May 21, 2013, 10:29 AM
you can download the plain old walmart app from the google store, and then use it to search for ammo. it's pretty good (although not perfect though) at keeping up with the local inventory. Often it's ahead of the employees. It takes advantage of automated shipping. when a box of ammo is scanned on delivery, the app updates to state that it's in stock in that store. Generally for me, it's been good to within 45mins of actual supply.

Arizona_Mike
May 21, 2013, 10:35 AM
So your horde beat their horde? I'm failing to see what justice there is besides FCFS being upheld in either case.

Mike

T Slothrop
May 21, 2013, 10:54 AM
So your horde beat their horde? I'm failing to see what justice there is besides FCFS being upheld in either case.


I think it's pretty obvious that his "horde" is going to, you know, actually shoot the rounds, whereas the other "horde" was going to list them on gunbroker for a 200% markup.

RustHunter87
May 21, 2013, 10:56 AM
the justice is he and the others he handed "His" ammo off to are going to shoot it not resell at 300%

Sam1911
May 21, 2013, 10:57 AM
I think it's pretty obvious that his "horde" is going to, you know, actually shoot the rounds, whereas the other "horde" was going to list them on gunbroker for a 200% markup.

It is important for all of us to remember that it is morally superior to use up a consumable resource than to use that resource to make a profit.

Rock185
May 21, 2013, 11:05 AM
Well, congratulations on getting your stepdaughters and friends together to grab as much as you all could, I guess. Don't know if you've been to my local WalMart, but, IIRC, I've been able to buy precisely one box of 9MM there since the frenzy began. I'm not offended though. Other people are just quicker, have "Apps" and bring more friends and relatives. Of course, not to sell, just for the Grandkids, so it's morally superior...

Orion8472
May 21, 2013, 11:29 AM
There is a difference when you work during the times when these places [walmart] gets their stock in, . . . but a store can send workers out during that time to get all they can to resell for a large profit. At some point, the "first come first serve" benefits only a few.

I got lucky finding 3 boxes [all that was left] of 7.62x39 when I dropped by Walmart, last night. $5.15 a box, BTW.

tyeo098
May 21, 2013, 11:32 AM
my 14 year old snagged the 4 remaining boxes of .223 for us

Don't you have to be 18 to buy ammo?

My wally world wouldn't accept my 17 y/o brother as a helping hand since he wasn't legally allowed to but the ammo.

bannockburn
May 21, 2013, 11:59 AM
Sounds like poetic justice to me in the case of the profiteers getting there a little too late to make off with their usual FCFS share of the ammo.

anothernewb
May 21, 2013, 11:59 AM
Yes indeed, my "horde" was me and my 2 stepdaughters and we were indeed buying ammo for ourselves to shoot. I just happened to drag along a couple other shooting buddies who also purchased ammo for themselves as well.

Yep - gotta be 18, but the walmart 3 box limit is aggregate (at least at this one) max of 3 boxes per caliber. and yep, I had her snag the boxes before the ammo reseller horde got them. I kept 2, and the other two went home with 2 equally happy owners.

I won't go so far as to claim any moral superiority in this situation. I, like others am short on certain ammo, and I used what resources I had available to acquire it. Did I go there with the intent to buy the store out? no. I did buy 6 boxes for myself, my buddies all bought 3 each for themselves. I will never win any awards for being christian about it, but when I saw the reseller horde show up, I admit - the rest of the 22 got handed out to everyone else in line with a rather extreme prejudice.

leprechaun50
May 21, 2013, 12:27 PM
Okay, I shouldn't really be proud of myself for this but here's the story:

Wrong! You should be proud for beating that bunch of (incert appropriate names) at their own game. Also for shareing with the other legit customers. Good on ya!

DNS
May 21, 2013, 01:20 PM
I downloaded the app so now I'm waiting to see if I can snipe the local hoarders.

Thanks :cool:

Texan Scott
May 21, 2013, 01:24 PM
It is important for all of us to remember that it is morally superior to use up a consumable resource than to use that resource to make a profit.

Sam, was that a joke? Sarcasm? Please tell me you didn't just channel the ghost of Karl Marx...

Sam1911
May 21, 2013, 01:39 PM
Ooooh, maybe I should leave that up to the reader to decide! That way, folks who are wholeheartedly against someone buying a commodity low and selling it high can cheer me -- and so can folks who think, or know, or think they know that I was engaging in a little illustrative sarcasm.

I mean, it's good not to lay out you opinions too transparently! Some folks (in other threads this very day!) have called for the violent DEATHS (by lynching, no less!) of their neighbors who buy ammo to resell it at a profit! Who knows what such bloodthirsty, homicidal Marxists will do to those who oppose their views? :eek:

Agsalaska
May 21, 2013, 01:59 PM
Sam, was that a joke? Sarcasm? Please tell me you didn't just channel the ghost of Karl Marx...
Haha. He didnt. But about 90% of this board seems to.


And, I might add, post 18 wins my vote for post of the week. I am ready to cast it now.

stumpers
May 21, 2013, 02:00 PM
One day my local walmart actually had 9mm in stock when I was there after work around 5:30. So I did what any rational person would, I grabbed three boxes, checked out, repeated three more times for a total of all 12 boxes on the shelf.

It's really hard to keep a stockpile of rounds while continuing to shoot a high volume of rounds while rounds are scarce and readily available rounds are triple price if one doesn't take presented opportunities. (that's probably a run-on, but hopefully you get the gist)

AethelstanAegen
May 21, 2013, 02:19 PM
Sam1911, you once again have made my day. Your posts nearly caused me to spew my coffee across my monitor. Well done, sir.

Sam1911
May 21, 2013, 02:28 PM
:)

But lest you think I'm kidding:

I say lynch them. Treat them like the sympathizers in occupied countries. They do nothing but prey on the gullible.

... I will give up shooting before I buy. I am so disgusted, I could donate to Obama, Finstien, Brady any ammo money to stop them.

Pretty serious stuff! So, I do try to keep on EVERYONE's good side. So you know, if you think I'm for, or against, you're probably right! :D

Texan Scott
May 21, 2013, 03:29 PM
Who knows what such bloodthirsty, homicidal Marxists will do to those who oppose their views?

Last I checked, they were mobbing public parks and refusing to leave unless banks stop charging interest. A lot of them smell like sweat and patchouli. Surprisingly, not many of them have actually read Marx.

oneounceload
May 21, 2013, 03:55 PM
It is important for all of us to remember that it is morally superior to use up a consumable resource than to use that resource to make a profit.

Sadly, that seemed to go over the heads of many

Agsalaska
May 21, 2013, 04:02 PM
Sadly, that seemed to go over the heads of many
dude, he was being sarcastic. Thats why it was funny.

Certaindeaf
May 21, 2013, 04:10 PM
Dang, you probably deprived some penthouse living, cigar chewing fatcat in NYC from getting his pate stained hands on some internet ammo! How dare you!

JRH6856
May 21, 2013, 04:58 PM
Everyone is a capitalist until the run out of capital. :uhoh:

Jlr2267
May 21, 2013, 05:19 PM
dude, he was being sarcastic. Thats why it was funny.

Pretty sure he was saying the *sarcasm* is what "went over the heads"

Texan Scott
May 21, 2013, 05:27 PM
Hmmm... read The Good Earth by Pearl S. Buck.

I will point out that I am actually HAPPY for the OP, and GLAD he stuck it to some flippers. I'm just evil (honestly pragmatic) enough to separate "hooray for our side" from any pretense of moral superiority.

Sometimes everyone claims a "right". Sometimes everyone thinks the other guy is "wrong". Sometimes we do what we want because we can, and wouldn't know Jeebus from Beezus if either one tried to talk us out of it. The military taught me that, just not on purpose.

Good, Bad? I'm the guy with the gun. (Ash, Army of Darkness, anyone?).

Okay. Hurray for our side! Happy shooting :D

dbb1776
May 21, 2013, 05:33 PM
No prob with people making a profit. Just painfully tired of the gouging. Good sticking it to em.

Comrade Mike
May 21, 2013, 05:37 PM
Well I hope the lesson we've learned from this is "buy cheap and stack deep" in non crisis times. Between my father and I, we can shoot through the summer and not have to buy ammo.

Agsalaska
May 21, 2013, 05:50 PM
No prob with people making a profit. Just painfully tired of the gouging. Good sticking it to em.
Contradiction of the day.


Maybe it is time for me to just let this go and hope someone, anyone, who has read my posts on this and a few other threads have a better understanding of what is happening and why. I will try to stay away.

12many
May 21, 2013, 08:45 PM
hey everyone, what do you think is a fair profit margin? What profit margin is gouging? Does that percentage change if the person or store sells less product? Have you run a business and see how this applies? How does that compare to other new items you have bought? Cars or jewelry? Electronics?

What are your thoughts on the following: 30% profit off 10 boxes of ammo is different than 20% off three hundred boxes of ammo. One makes more money but may not be gouging but the other makes less money, but could be called by some gouging. Even 50% markup off 10 boxes of ammo means that store is going out of business. Should stores rise their prices when supply is low to maintain profit since they are selling less so they don't go out of business?

Do the walmart resellers provide a valuable service? Would it better if they bought the ammo and stored it in their basement? Is that better or worse than reselling for double the price? It is the same result for the other buyers who can not get ammo.

Impureclient
May 21, 2013, 09:01 PM
Would it better if they bought the ammo and stored it in their basement?

No, it would be better if somehow one round cooked off in their car igniting the rest and blew their car up due to the vast amount of boxes of ammo they just picked up at 4 AM to sell at exorbitant prices. Nobody inside of course, that is going too far. :evil:

Agsalaska
May 21, 2013, 09:06 PM
hey everyone, what do you think is a fair profit margin? What profit margin is gouging? Does that percentage change if the person or store sells less product? Have you run a business and see how this applies? How does that compare to other new items you have bought? Cars or jewelry? Electronics?

What are your thoughts on the following: 30% profit off 10 boxes of ammo is different than 20% off three hundred boxes of ammo. One makes more money but may not be gouging but the other makes less money, but could be called by some gouging. Even 50% markup off 10 boxes of ammo means that store is going out of business. Should stores rise their prices when supply is low to maintain profit since they are selling less so they don't go out of business?

Do the walmart resellers provide a valuable service? Would it better if they bought the ammo and stored it in their basement? Is that better or worse than reselling for double the price? It is the same result for the other buyers who can not get ammo.
Great question. I would like to hear an answer to that as well. What is a fair margin? To add to that, what is a fair loss? At what point, since we the consumers seem to want to hold them to a specific profit, should we the consumers be required to purchase items at a certain loss?

Texan Scott
May 21, 2013, 09:16 PM
Those who would trade their right to more than 16oz of soda, for the promise of a steady supply of reasonably priced 22lr, deserve neither and will have neither.

(Sorry, Ben!)

JVaughn
May 21, 2013, 09:18 PM
Great job blocking the horde! If I didn't work for a living, I'd go block ours everyday. I know Sam and a few others support the "free market" reselling is capitalism idea, but these people are the problem. I don't want the government to stop them; but I sure wish they would go away, glad they got shutout for once.

Impureclient
May 21, 2013, 09:18 PM
What is a fair margin? How about at a point that you would sell to your own family and not feel like a pile of you know what.
That question is really irrelevant in this topic though. This is not running a day to day business that you use as a means of living, this is profiteering.

Profiteer: one who makes what is considered an unreasonable profit especially on the sale of essential goods during times of emergency by methods considered unethical.

Key words Unreasonable and Unethical.

David E
May 21, 2013, 09:23 PM
OP, did you tell the "Head Hoarder" that, if he hurried, he could buy a box from you online? The stuff is like gold, after all.....

Sam1911
May 21, 2013, 09:25 PM
The only UNFAIR profit is one in which someone is misrepresenting the commodity being exchanged.

As long as the buyer knows what s/he is getting and the seller is comfortable with the quantity and form of payment -- and both are transacting of their own free will -- what transacts between them is their business alone.

By that rationale, a painting you made yourself on a piece of plywood you found by the road, using $2.87 worth of paint, a pretty rock someone picked up lying in a stream bed, and/or a box of .22s you bought for $15, might all be fairly exchanged for $1, or $5,000, or $50,000,000 -- depending on what they're willing to part with it for, and what someone else is willing to pay you for them.

"What's a FAIR profit?" That's kind of like asking "What does happy smell like?" The question has no meaning whatsoever, except for vague, ephemeral, and usually conflicting associations each of us might drape upon them.

danez71
May 21, 2013, 09:26 PM
Do the walmart resellers provide a valuable service?

Nope.

Agsalaska
May 21, 2013, 09:28 PM
What is a fair margin? How about at a point that you would sell to your own family and not feel like a pile of you know what.
That question is really irrelevant in this topic though. This is not running a day to day business that you use as a means of living, this is profiteering.

Profiteer: one who makes what is considered an unreasonable profit especially on the sale of essential goods during times of emergency by methods considered unethical.

Key words Unreasonable and Unethical.
How do you figure it is irrelevant? At some point, apparently when you would feel like <deleted> selling it at hat price to your family, you cross the line. Everyone on this damn threads keep complaining about gouging. Now you say it is when they become a profiteer. That is defined by UNREASONABLE and UNETHICAL. Well who defines that?

You liberals drive me nuts. If your going to accuse them of price gouging at least show them the line you expect them not to cross.

Sam1911
May 21, 2013, 09:30 PM
Key words Unreasonable and Unethical.And those words have no possible literal meaning when discussing the relative value of a (still quite inexpensive, in absolute dollars) luxury purchase (like another brick of .22 ammo in 2013 America).

This Renoire ...

http://www.artnet.com/WebServices/picture.aspx?maxheight=130&maxwidth=130&resize=1&date=20130517&catalog=299267&gallery=110990&lot=00466

... sold last week for over $56,000.

THAT is clearly UNREASONABLE and UNETHICAL.

But it happened. Someone should be lynched! Where's a Marxist lynch mob when you need one!?!

:D

Impureclient
May 21, 2013, 09:30 PM
Sam, So when the tornadoes ripped through Oklahoma and somebody buys up all the bottled water supply and sells it for triple to newly homeless folks, is that profiteering?

"As long as the buyer knows what s/he is getting and the seller is comfortable with the quantity and form of payment"

Well if I needed water or I would die, I guess any price is "comfortable".

Sniper66
May 21, 2013, 09:32 PM
Please God, make it stop!!!

JVaughn
May 21, 2013, 09:33 PM
Sam, out of curiosity, just for the sake of argument... If a person has no ammo, I mean not 1 cartridge, would an ammo purchase still be a luxury item? Do you think any quantity of ammo is a necessity or is it all luxury?

Agsalaska
May 21, 2013, 09:34 PM
Please God, make it stop!!!
Not until this nonsense about price gouging stops.

Impureclient
May 21, 2013, 09:35 PM
I will pray with Sniper66 and maybe everybody else can jump in and ask for help from the big guy. Just more ammo though, no praying for something bad to happen to the gougers. At least not them personally, the car blowing up thing is OK.

Agsalaska
May 21, 2013, 09:36 PM
Sam, So when the tornadoes ripped through Oklahoma and somebody buys up all the bottled water supply and sells it for triple to newly homeless folks, is that profiteering?



Well if I needed water or I would die, I guess any price is "comfortable".
I would love to give my take on that because I think it is an excellent question. But, since you asked Sam, I will wait for a few minutes.

JVaughn
May 21, 2013, 09:37 PM
Sam, So when the tornadoes ripped through Oklahoma and somebody buys up all the bottled water supply and sells it for triple to newly homeless folks, is that profiteering?

Right on. They call it "profiteering" for a reason, in the pejorative. If it were ethical, they wold call it "legitimate business."

Sam1911
May 21, 2013, 09:43 PM
Sam, So when the tornadoes ripped through Oklahoma and somebody buys up all the bottled water supply and sells it for triple to newly homeless folks, is that profiteering?

"As long as the buyer knows what s/he is getting and the seller is comfortable with the quantity and form of payment"

Well if I needed water or I would die, I guess any price is "comfortable".Well now, that takes us outside the realm of luxury purchases such as guns & ammo entirely and into what we could actually call life necessities.

I'm not going to drag this conversation off into the weeds of substitute arguments by giving my theories on whether "gouging" can apply to life necessities or not -- lest I violate THR rules myself--- but suffice it to say, with ammo that analogy has no bearing at all.

Impureclient
May 21, 2013, 09:47 PM
profˇitˇeer [prof-i-teer]
noun
1. a person who seeks or exacts exorbitant profits, especially through the sale of scarce or rationed goods.
2. a person who makes excessive profits, esp by charging exorbitant prices for goods in short supply


Pretty sure I didn't miss copying and pasting anything about "life necessities".

Stress_Test
May 21, 2013, 09:49 PM
Please God, make it stop!!!

+1!!


All the talk lately is about nothing but economics philosophy, socialists, Marxists, communists, and lions and tigers and bears oh my!



I just want some friggin' ammo! :banghead:

Sam1911
May 21, 2013, 09:49 PM
Sam, out of curiosity, just for the sake of argument... If a person has no ammo, I mean not 1 cartridge, would an ammo purchase still be a luxury item? Do you think any quantity of ammo is a necessity or is it all luxury?That depends on many factors just as ambiguous and potentially unrealistic as the notion of someone having a gun, NEEDING to use that gun for some lifesaving purpose, and not having ONE round of ammo to use -- but somehow having the ability to get to a store and buy a box of ammo in time to save their lives if a box was available to buy.

Just on the face of it? Someone doesn't have a round of ammo -- is buying a round of ammo a life necessity? I can't see any clear way, realistically, that it would be.

Just because you don't own ammo, currently, doesn't magically turn ammo into anything but a discretionary purchase.


We have the right to own arms and ammunition. That doesn't mean there is some guarantee that those things will be provided to us or will be available at a cost we can afford. Just like how you have a right to be secure from harm, but that's not a guarantee that you will be secure from harm just because you have a right to such security. Life is hard like that.

Sam1911
May 21, 2013, 09:50 PM
Pretty sure I didn't miss copying and pasting anything about "life necessities".So?

Impureclient
May 21, 2013, 09:53 PM
So?

Oh I thought we were debating over whether the gougers/profiteers were doing something wrong. You know unethical or unreasonable "business" practices.

Agsalaska
May 21, 2013, 09:54 PM
Pretty sure I didn't miss copying and pasting anything about "life necessities".
No. But neither of those definitions apply to the current ammo situation. Ammo is neither scarce, in short supply, or rationed(not authoritarian). It has just had a sudden increase in demand. I am not saying profiteering does not exist, but it cannot exist in reference to the current ammo situation.

Agsalaska
May 21, 2013, 09:55 PM
Oh I thought we were debating over whether the gougers/profiteers were doing something wrong. You know unethical or unreasonable "business" practices.
Please see my post above. The current situation cannot satisfy either of those definitions.

oneounceload
May 21, 2013, 09:56 PM
Sam, So when the tornadoes ripped through Oklahoma and somebody buys up all the bottled water supply and sells it for triple to newly homeless folks, is that profiteering?

Quote:
"As long as the buyer knows what s/he is getting and the seller is comfortable with the quantity and form of payment"
Well if I needed water or I would die, I guess any price is "comfortable".

GEEZ! This yet AGAIN?

Has no one seen this video? I have posted this link enough already

Watch it, understand and learn:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9QEkw6_O6w

Impureclient
May 21, 2013, 09:56 PM
Want to see a cool thread?
Post this as the title "Ammo is neither scarce, in short supply, or rationed(not authoritarian)."

That will be a riot.

Sam1911
May 21, 2013, 10:08 PM
Oh I thought we were debating over whether the gougers/profiteers were doing something wrong. You know unethical or unreasonable "business" practices.

Simple answer: IF it is possible for someone to "unreasonably take advantage of" someone else by refusing to sell a product to them at a price they like (or can afford), the only way that COULD have some validity is if that person HAD to have that product. I.e: had no choice but to purchase that product, and from that vendor. Occasionally governments step in (for various reasons, few of them altruistic ;) ) and make it illegal to withhold a product from someone who will not pay above a certain mark-up. I'm not going to say that's good or that's bad. It just sometimes is so.

Such a conversation is blatantly irrelevant when discussing buying ammunition in our current climate. We ALL have the choice of whether to buy ammo right now. It is TOTALLY voluntary. No one can coerce us to buy or die. There isn't even a legitimate argument that there is only one vendor -- while ammo is scarce, it is indeed available from multiple sources at various, albeit elevated, price points.

So stop claiming that there is some scalping, gouging, "profiteering" aspect to this. It's just a wrong-headed idea.

If you want to shoot, you can buy ammo right now, today. If you don't want to pay the "going rate" -- DON'T. Your life will go on just fine if you don't shoot tomorrow, or this month, or even this year. Like leaving off dinners out, nice cigars, and a new car, that might make your life a little bit less comfortable than you're used to, but stop claiming that that discomfort insinuates a moral crisis.

It most certainly does not!

Agsalaska
May 21, 2013, 10:10 PM
Deleted. Sorry. Please read post below.

Agsalaska
May 21, 2013, 10:12 PM
Sam, So when the tornadoes ripped through Oklahoma and somebody buys up all the bottled water supply and sells it for triple to newly homeless folks, is that profiteering?



Well if I needed water or I would die, I guess any price is "comfortable".
With respect for Sams response to keep it THR and not stray too far off.


The answer to your question is yes. But situations like that are what Economists call 'market failures.' It is basically when basic market principles break down, usually when a zero sum environment has been created. Another more cited example would be the theory of 'tragedy of the commons.' This is when everyone uses up a public good because they have no incentive not too. Public grazing is the best example. Maintenance of public parks is probably more applicable. Many consider situations like OK today a market failure, albeit a short term one. I will add though that it became a market failure after the storm hit. When it happens beforehand, say plywood the day before a hurricane, it is not considered a market failure. Higher prices ensure people only buy what they need to satisfy what may be a necessity due to higher prices. But that is a different argument.

To apply that to the current ammo situation and keep it applicable to this board, this market is not failing(although not acting as efficient as it could). Ammo is neither scarce nor a life necessity. It cannot, by definition, apply. The reason it is not efficient, and the cause of a lot of frustration, is the reactions people are having by the refusal of the big box retailers to allow ammo to reach its point(Average Sale Price). This is turngint hem into a supplier to those who will. If they would take that incentive away by pricing at market demand the 'evil profiteers' would disappear. Understand that price is not the high price. It is the average sale price. My guess is, for a $500 brick of 22lr, that price should sit near $50. That would run off the 'profiteers' and ensure available inventory.

Tomcat47
May 21, 2013, 10:19 PM
The way I see it ..... water and ammo is a necessity when needed, and as brothers in arms, If I have two boxes and you need one in dire straits I will give you one...

People who hoard for sake of profit from the down trodden will get just rewards in end...

In Oklahoma for instance ... if one had a truck load of water he should be giving it away without prejudice and expecting no gain! (my opinion) and those that do it for profit.... may they experience true thirst before they leave this life.

And as far as ammo gougers/profiteers may their greed position them that they may not find one round of ammo in there locker when they truly need it.....

greed works that way!

And as far as Walmart ... I quit trekking to them for my bit of porridge only to find the bowl empty because of the fore mentioned profiteers. Local Gun Stores and Pawn shops have been a treasure to find my little piece of the puzzle... requires a little patience, but I much rather visit them than Walmart!

And As Always: Sam1911 ... You are a Gentleman and a Scholar saying just the right things at the right time!

rgwalt
May 21, 2013, 10:46 PM
I have to cast my ballot with Sam 1911 on this. To claim profiteering, you must show that the markup is unreasonable. Who has a right to define what a reasonable profit margin is? Now, what these resellers are doing is likely illegal because they are not paying sales tax, or income tax on their profits.

David E
May 21, 2013, 10:50 PM
This is the worst derailed thread ever.

Lock it up already!

Agsalaska
May 21, 2013, 10:52 PM
This is the worst derailed thread ever.

Lock it up already!
Absolutely not. This is an outstanding discussion regarding market forces surrounding our firearms. It is one of the best threads in weeks. You cant get this kind of discussion many places.

flylo
May 21, 2013, 11:01 PM
Sam, I think you did well & I;d be there every night for a week or until the horders quit coming. And I'd pass out a few boxes to the "regular" folks in like to make them happy & p*ss of the horders until they quit or found another place to go. Good Job, but you should keep it up. If you get too much share with people who can't get it or afford it.Be the modern day Robin Hood!

S&W620
May 21, 2013, 11:18 PM
I am pretty ambivalent in regards to the ammo situation.

On one hand, I can't hardly blame folks for making an easy buck off of folks willing to part with their money. What's the saying? A fool and his money are quickly parted? Is it wrong? No. No one is forcing the buyer to buy the goods at absurd prices, they choose to. Is it decent? That's for everyone to decide for themselves.

On the other hand, I certainly wish that folks could get back to business as usual and go shooting as they please for a reasonable cost.

danez71
May 21, 2013, 11:40 PM
They really aren't "gougers"... they're market manipulators or at least some are attempting to be.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_manipulation

Market manipulation is a deliberate attempt to interfere with the free and fair operation of the market and create artificial, false or misleading appearances with respect to the price of, or market for, a security, commodity or currency. Market manipulation is prohibited in the United States under Section 9(a)(2)[1] of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934,

Commodity:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity

In economics, a commodity is a marketable item produced to satisfy wants or needs.[1] Economic commodities comprise goods and services.


But to others unsubstantiated claims, they're are just old people trying to supplement their 'fixed' income and doing everyone a favor by providing a service that... no one wants.

ljnowell
May 21, 2013, 11:59 PM
I'm glad I never have to deal with this stuff. I shoot 500 rds a week, sometimes more. All I do is walk in, select what I want off the shelf and go shooting. No dealing with "hoarders" or anyone else. The best part? What I want is ALWAYS in stock!

Agsalaska
May 22, 2013, 12:01 AM
Want to see a cool thread?
Post this as the title "Ammo is neither scarce, in short supply, or rationed(not authoritarian)."

That will be a riot.
Ha. I didnt see this posted earlier. But it would be an absolute riot if I would post my quote as a topic. In fact tomorrow I just might do it.

Jlr2267
May 22, 2013, 12:07 AM
What is a fair margin? How about at a point that you would sell to your own family and not feel like a pile of you know what.
That question is really irrelevant in this topic though. This is not running a day to day business that you use as a means of living, this is profiteering.

Profiteer: one who makes what is considered an unreasonable profit especially on the sale of essential goods during times of emergency by methods considered unethical.

Key words Unreasonable and Unethical.

Keyword: essential, emergency

Impureclient
May 22, 2013, 12:27 AM
Words games, neat. OK, I'll try.

I need ammo when a bad guy breaks my door down in an emergency and I need essential ammo to defend my life.
Unfortunately the unethical gougers stripped the ammo off the shelf and are selling it online for an unreasonable amount.

Now somebody do this one: Profiteer:a person who makes excessive profits, especially by charging exorbitant prices for goods in short supply
Key words Excessive and Exorbitant

Agsalaska
May 22, 2013, 12:38 AM
Words games, neat. OK, I'll try.

I need ammo when a bad guy breaks my door down in an emergency and I need essential ammo to defend my life.
Unfortunately the unethical gougers stripped the ammo off the shelf and are selling it online for an unreasonable amount.

Now somebody do this one: Profiteer:a person who makes excessive profits, especially by charging exorbitant prices for goods in short supply
Key words Excessive and Exorbitant
That was not any more of a word game than the one you played in your original post. He challenged your logic. And he is right. Your definition cannot apply to the current situation.

Regarding the rest of your post, you try to link ammunition to an essential need opposed to a luxury item. Just because you can find a circumstance where that commodity becomes a need, or even essential for the situation you are in, does not make that item an economic essential. If so, the same logic could be applied to Fire Extinguishers, defibrillators, scuba gear, knives, weather radios, tricycles, peanut butter, you name it. I can make just about anything an essential need if you give me the right circumstance. But the fact that there is less than .01% chance that need ever finds you means it is not an essential commodity.

Jlr2267
May 22, 2013, 12:46 AM
Words games, neat. OK, I'll try.

I need ammo when a bad guy breaks my door down in an emergency and I need essential ammo to defend my life.
Unfortunately the unethical gougers stripped the ammo off the shelf and are selling it online for an unreasonable amount.

Now somebody do this one: Profiteer:a person who makes excessive profits, especially by charging exorbitant prices for goods in short supply
Key words Excessive and Exorbitant

If you honestly needed it to defend your life the current prices would not be unreasonable. The reason you do not buy at current price is precisely because you don't need it bad enough.

Impureclient
May 22, 2013, 12:46 AM
I can make just about anything an essential need if you give me the right circumstance.

Do a boomerang and a empty shoebox.

Impureclient
May 22, 2013, 12:50 AM
If you honestly needed it to defend your life the current prices would not be unreasonable.

Not everybody has a computer to go online and buy overpriced ammo. I have plenty of customers who don't use a computer. Too bad for them, right?
For the record, I have thousands of rounds in all the calibers of firearms I have. I am just arguing for the fellas/ladies who didn't have cash to be prepared and are getting tired of being hosed.

Agsalaska
May 22, 2013, 12:53 AM
Do a boomerang and a empty shoebox.
Let me pass that on to my daughter and I will get back to you. Do you care to address the rest of my post?

TimboKhan
May 22, 2013, 12:55 AM
I am tempted lock this up as this is turning into a circular argument. Ultimately, your own particular set of morals and values provides the right (or, mostly right) answer. I, for one, have no issue with people buying as much ammo as they can. People hoarding ammo when there is ammo to be hoarded has never been a big issue, and in fact is often an almost celebrated achievment. When the supply runs short, all of a sudden it becomes this huge negative issue.

I don't condone people calling for bad things to happen to people flipping ammo, but if you find it distasteful it's a pretty simple thing to not be a part of. I do find it distasteful to compare a consumer product to a necessity of life. Charging triple for water in a town that just got literally destroyed is despicable. Charging a willing customer more for ammo on the open market is a much different thing, and I don't care how websters defines it.

Sentryau2
May 22, 2013, 12:56 AM
What the hordes are doing is unreasonable. I mean its pretty weak to buy ammo for the sake of reselling it. Id rather it be some guy and his kids buying up most of the ammo to shoot, instead of some :cuss: buying it all and selling it online for an outrageous price. I have 30 rounds of 5.56 ammo because thats all I've been able to find. Its not even the same brand its mixed ammo I managed to buy from friends who could spare it. There was a guy here buying generators a few years ago during an ice storm 1K $ generators hed sell them for 5K $ because people needed them, but the little old lady living down the street couldent afford that so he thought she could freeze to death because it was her problem. Its not the same situation and ammo is not a necessity but its the same principal. Price gouging and hoarding for resale is a disgusting thing to do. I have 50 rounds of .22lr because the shop only had 2 boxes of 50 instead of buying both I only bought one. I'll give you a better example that relates to ammo. Say you enter a public restroom and use number 2 but theres only a little bit of toilet paper left. Instead of useing all of it (like you could) you only use half of it. Someone goes in after you who has a stomach bug and gets the runs, they are going to bless you like you're the forth coming of christ. Now a second outcome, say you didnt leave that bit of tissue left over, and u end up with diarrhea you screwed urself over, and a third outcome. You end up with diarrhea but you did leave that tissue left. You saved yourself a problem. Toilet tissue is no a life necessity either :p

Jlr2267
May 22, 2013, 12:59 AM
Not everybody has a computer to go online and buy overpriced ammo. I have plenty of customers who don't use a computer. Too bad for them, right?
For the record, I have thousands of rounds in all the calibers of firearms I have. I am just arguing for the fellas/ladies who didn't have cash to be prepared and are getting tired of being hosed.

Sell them your ammo at Walmart price. I'm sure they'd appreciate that more than your efforts in arguing online (which they can't even see without a computer :) )

Agsalaska
May 22, 2013, 01:01 AM
I am tempted lock this up as this is turning into a circular argument. Ultimately, your own particular set of morals and values provides the right (or, mostly right) answer. I, for one, have no issue with people buying as much ammo as they can. People hoarding ammo when there is ammo to be hoarded has never been a big issue, and in fact is often an almost celebrated achievment. When the supply runs short, all of a sudden it becomes this huge negative issue.

I don't condone people calling for bad things to happen to people flipping ammo, but if you find it distasteful it's a pretty simple thing to not be a part of. I do find it distasteful to compare a consumer product to a necessity of life. Charging triple for water in a town that just got literally destroyed is despicable. Charging a willing customer more for ammo on the open market is a much different thing, and I don't care how websters defines it.
I understand. And I wouldn't blame you one bit if you locked this thread. I just find it frustrating that so many people, who vote republican I might add, either have a total misunderstanding or distaste for capitalist principles. I think some of the comparisons and questions are fair and some are obviously over the line. But the reason they go over the line is a lack of understanding of what our economy, their economy, is based. Comparing water after a tornado to the current ammo is ludicrous, but explaining the difference in an educational way is beneficial. That is assuming it is civil. I can only hope that somebody who has read this thread and a couple of others like it have gained some kind of understanding beyond their previous assumptions.

Impureclient
May 22, 2013, 01:03 AM
Sell them your ammo at Walmart price.
Even better, I've already given some away and not sold it.

Also to add. Right before the ammo became scarce and it was available, I still didn't buy out whole cases that I found although I could. I left some behind for others.

I see this whole thing black and white. There are two kinds of people who buy ammo. My kind and the other kind. My kind also help elderly people across the streets and gives handouts to homeless.
I'm doing it because I am not greedy and am not just out for number one. Some people are nice and some people are mean.

Agsalaska
May 22, 2013, 01:05 AM
What the hordes are doing is unreasonable. I mean its pretty weak to buy ammo for the sake of reselling it. Id rather it be some guy and his kids buying up most of the ammo to shoot, instead of some :cuss: buying it all and selling it online for an outrageous price. I have 30 rounds of 5.56 ammo because thats all I've been able to find. Its not even the same brand its mixed ammo I managed to buy from friends who could spare it. There was a guy here buying generators a few years ago during an ice storm 1K $ generators hed sell them for 5K $ because people needed them, but the little old lady living down the street couldent afford that so he thought she could freeze to death because it was her problem. Its not the same situation and ammo is not a necessity but its the same principal. Price gouging and hoarding for resale is a disgusting thing to do. I have 50 rounds of .22lr because the shop only had 2 boxes of 50 instead of buying both I only bought one. I'll give you a better example that relates to ammo. Say you enter a public restroom and use number 2 but theres only a little bit of toilet paper left. Instead of useing all of it (like you could) you only use half of it. Someone goes in after you who has a stomach bug and gets the runs, they are going to bless you like you're the forth coming of christ. Now a second outcome, say you didnt leave that bit of tissue left over, and u end up with diarrhea you screwed urself over, and a third outcome. You end up with diarrhea but you did leave that tissue left. You saved yourself a problem. Toilet tissue is no a life necessity either :p
I highly suggest you watch the video posted earlier. Below is a link. It is not the best or most complete explanation I have heard but it does a pretty good job.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9QEkw6_O6w

Jlr2267
May 22, 2013, 01:08 AM
What the hordes are doing is unreasonable. I mean its pretty weak to buy ammo for the sake of reselling it. isn't that what every ammo retailer on the planet does?

Id rather it be some guy and his kids buying up most of the ammo to shoot, instead of some :cuss: buying it all and selling it online for an outrageous price. So you'd rather have no ammo available than expensive ammo available?

Agsalaska
May 22, 2013, 01:14 AM
I think the biggest problem that people cannot get their heads around is the demand curve had shifted rapidly and dramatically. It has done so while outpacing supply. That will inherently cause an increase in price. THat can come in a couple of ways. You can either have consitent prices across the board or you can have wild variations in price. Either way it brings you back to an Average Sale that is consistent with demand. And people do not want to see an increase in price. But, until supply can catch up(which is no guarantee), the increase is reality. And that is not a bad thing.

rugerdude
May 22, 2013, 04:02 AM
Unfortunately we are arguing a moral dilemma against basic, reasonable economic behavior. Some say it's wrong regardless of how the economy is supposed to work, others say that it is right because high demand produces somewhat less obvious benefits. We can logically REASON that the high demand with high prices MAINTAINS a supply, and any supply is better than no supply no matter which side of the debate you're on. Whether it is a time sacrifice waiting for Academy to open its doors, or a monetary cost because you cannot or will not wait in line, or buy from the internet. We all have different schedules and budgets but the economy does not have to be and is not fair. If your counter is that this "profiteering" makes it unable for lower income people to get ammo then you're right, those that can comfortably spend more, will. However ammo is a luxury item, and some luxury items can only be had by "rich" people (we all have a different definition of wealthy).

The two ideas presented fundamentally disagree with one another. Your FEELINGS about these practices have nothing to do with it, it is an economy at work. Also ammo and water are completely different commodities. Maybe we can all agree that we'd rather have cheaper ammo everywhere, but that is beyond the scope of reality with the current demand, BECAUSE of the current demand. You feelings only make things right for you, from your own perspective. We cannot argue one standard for morality.

If you want reasonably priced ammo, don't buy ammo, and convince others not to buy it (unreasonable, I know). Demand will decrease and supply will catch up. It has become all about pulling one over on the "other guy" both from the moral perspective and the economically sensible one. We all want to benefit, even the guy that gives everything away does so because his moral desire to help others has become WORTH MORE to him than his ammo. We are a desire driven species and NO decision is made without a desire to do so. You may be forced to choose between two terrible choices and have no other options, but you will still choose the BEST for YOU, even if is is only better within the confines of your conscience. Do not mistake DECISION with a coerced action, they are not the same. You people both want ammo to go to those that don't have it. The "profiteers" are doing that, and the ammo is only sold when a price is mutually AGREED upon. Just because it is not as beneficial of a transaction as you would LIKE it to be DOES NOT mean it wasn't a mutually beneficial transaction.

If your goal is to be congratulated for being morally superior to the other guys flipping ammo, then cool, I would tend to agree that you are. I hope there were smiles all around.

However, you bought the ammo first and had a personally moral victory, but you don't know the other people's situation as much as you might like to assume that you do. Whose to say they aren't donating the profits to charity or caring for their elderly parents? There's no reason to turn this issue into an "us versus them." Take time out of shooting, it is a LUXURY, maybe in doing so you could pick up a hobby that you never knew you loved. If you needed ammo for training or protection then you should A. Have some, or B. Be provided it by the institution that employs to to maintain a firearms proficiency. Or heck even, C gotten a better job and made more money so that you could afford the ammo. There are people on other continents in FAR more danger than any of us, but nobody here is donating their guns and ammo to them, or making a legal initiative to do so and legalizing such exportation first.


Too long; Didn't read: People like it when things go their way, and do not like it when things don't.

JVaughn
May 22, 2013, 04:56 AM
It's amazing how polarizing this issue can be.

oneounceload
May 22, 2013, 07:28 AM
It is only polarizing to those who:

Do not understand basic supply/demand economics
Do not have the financial means to support their shooting habit at the current pricing
Did not prepare/foresee this coming after the first election cycle

pockets
May 22, 2013, 07:31 AM
Okay....I have waded through these 4 pages of circle fun......now my head hurts.
'A little justice' would be getting back all of the time I spent reading it.
I could have (probably should have) gone shooting instead.
.

Sam1911
May 22, 2013, 07:39 AM
Rugerdude has perfectly explained the concepts at work. And his summation is just wonderfully apt.

HoosierQ
May 22, 2013, 07:42 AM
The problem we face right now is, as I have noted before, you have to behave like this just to get ammo to shoot your normal pattern. I know a guy who's a scout leader...came to the NRA Banquet in his Boy Scout uniform 'cause he didn't have time to change! He had to drive from Indiana to Pennsylvania to get .22lr for his scout troops merit badge/gun safety program...whatever it was.

Two kinds of "hoarding"...3 I guess. Obsessive hoarders, profiteers, and those who feel compelled to buy a couple thousand rounds when they can because they don't know the next time they'll even see a box of 50!

45_auto
May 22, 2013, 07:50 AM
Alright, I just have to know:

Two kinds of "hoarding"...3 I guess. Obsessive hoarders, profiteers, .....

How do you make a profit by "hoarding" ammo?

Definition of HOARD
: a supply or fund stored up and often hidden away

Wouldn't you need to SELL it to make a profit? Kind of the exact opposite of hoarding, isn't it? If you wanted to store it up, why would you try to sell it? And if you were trying to keep it hidden away, why would you advertise it for sale?

I'll admit, I have a pretty extensive hoard of ammo. How do I make a profit on it while still being a hoarder?

Bruno2
May 22, 2013, 09:11 AM
The issue will sort itself out. It always has in the past when dealers/private citizens hoard up all the assault rifles in order to re sale them for big money. Eventually they will get stuck with them and we will see prices fall like a rock. There will be good deals to find here in a couple of months whenever the ammo supply recovers.

anothernewb
May 22, 2013, 09:15 AM
In the words of George Takei.. "Oh My"

I had no idea I would start this kind of debate. Some of these posts actually had me go back and re-examine what I can remember of my motives. In truth - it had far less to do with ammo flippers, and more to do with this individual personally. The comment about buying it online from him really burned me.

The karma will likely bite me like it always does though..

Agsalaska
May 22, 2013, 09:16 AM
Rugerdude and post88!!!

Sam1911
May 22, 2013, 09:44 AM
Rugerdude and post88!!!Funny what they're teaching Recon Marines these days, isn't it? :)

LNK
May 22, 2013, 10:04 AM
Okay, I shouldn't really be proud of myself for this but here's the story:



Actually you should be proud of yourself, you found a way to be more creative than others trying to get the unobtainium. I check my Walmart whenever I can, but have not had much luck. Did get some 22 from BPS. As far as people complaining about gouging, and capitalism, just remember, Walmart is not raising its prices even though it probably should. Also, learn from this particular time, and don't let it happen to you again. People can only gouge you if you let them. People can only make a profit off of something if someone lets them. This whole thing will self correct eventually.

LNK

GrOuNd_ZeRo
May 22, 2013, 10:08 AM
The PX (Post Exchange) on Fort Sill has 500.000 rounds of .223 Tula ammo in, sure it's the steel cased stuff but I had no complaint since it was only 30 dollars per 100 dollar box :) I picked up 2 and plan to SHOOT it not pawn it off of 2-3x it's worth.

I picked up the maximum of 2 boxes so i'm happy, i'll be going to the range on Friday/Saturday

kwguy
May 22, 2013, 10:20 AM
Oh fer crying out loud. Really? You know what? Who cares who buys what with THEIR money? So what? It's THEIR money. If they wanna resell it, fine. Someone may buy it, or not. If someone can't afford the asking price, then they can't buy it. It's not their stuff.

Guess what, there are plenty of things people can't afford. If someone get's angry because they can't afford the 'gouge' price for ammo to support a 1000 round per week shooting hobby, so what? That's not the sellers problem. If someone can pay 5 bucks per box for 6 boxes of .223, then that same person can afford 30 bucks for that same box. Without trying to go too far down the rabbit hole of 'necessity' and 'need', that 30 round box can certainly fill the 'need' for normal home defense, but that price is a little high for 'plinking', unless you have a lot of expendable cash.

So this all seems like griping because someone is angry because the ammo has gotten too expensive to be able to just blast away. That stinks for sure, but come ON. Some people like to joyride for hundreds of miles in their cars, but the price of gas has gotten to where that is impossible for some. But they can still afford the gas to go to work.

To get mad at the 'haves' because you happen to be one of the possible 'have nots' is about the stupidest thing ever. And then when you throw the whole F word in there (fair), you just lose people.

Don't like the 'gouge' price, don't buy it. If you NEED it, you'll buy enough of it, it just may not be as much as you WANT.

And who is anyone to dictate what a 'fair' (there goes that word again) price for something is? No one is forcing anyone to buy it. If someone wants to bargain for a better deal on a car, let him. If someone is not able to bargain as well, and is ok with the deal THEY get, then that's 'fair' enough.

Quit hating. I wish things were back to 'normal' too, but it is what it is. When it does get back to normal, stock up.

PabloJ
May 22, 2013, 11:30 AM
This thread explains why it is futile for those w/o connections to shop for ammo at Walmart. Walmart employees alert certain people of ammo deliveries the story spreads and all ammo disappears almost immediately. I solved my problem by buying firearm for which ammo can only be bought at well-stocked gun shops.

dirtykid
May 22, 2013, 11:43 AM
Well I have my own success story to share while you guys duke it out amongst youselves

I had been searching for something to load up some 40gr V-max's for my REM700 bolt 223. (of course all the popular powders for this caliber are in the hands of online-gougers)

So I find a 8# jug on gunbroker , and place what I consider to be my max price, given the availability during current times... 2+ days before auction is supposed to end
The night it was gonna end, I went to log-on to GB, to see how many people will drive the price to ridiculous level, so that I can curse them from my monitor !!

Well it turns out GB-crashed that night, and nobody was able to place a higher bid,

I WON !!

The seller reluctantly contacts me the next day, saying how he will still honor our deal even though the "price would have went much higher"
Yea, I feel bad, He only made $60 on a jug instead of $100 like he wanted....

Certaindeaf
May 22, 2013, 12:10 PM
Your parting shot to epic scalper man shoulda been directions to the Preparation-H aisle.

danez71
May 22, 2013, 07:47 PM
In regards to the toilet paper example 2 pages ago

Instead of useing all of it (like you could) you only use half of it. Someone goes in after you who has a stomach bug and gets the runs, they are going to bless you like you're the forth coming of christ. Now a second outcome, say you didnt leave that bit of tissue left over, and u end up with diarrhea you screwed urself over....., <snip>

That's Karma. Something I believe in.

AKA: Treat others as you would like to be treated.

Simple, really.

FROGO207
May 22, 2013, 09:19 PM
^^^ Life is really alot easier when you treat everyone else the same way that you wish to be treated. This has worked well for years so far in my corner of the world. As for Karma there is a lot to this you will find.:D

TennJed
May 22, 2013, 10:00 PM
I am a huge football fan. I hate it when the other team hordes all the points. It is really unfair that they have more fans, which equals more money, which equals better players. They players get to the endzone first and won't share the ball :( Then they gouge us by making it harder for us to score

Doesn't everyone deserve a trophy?

kwguy
May 22, 2013, 10:07 PM
I am a huge football fan. I hate it when the other team hordes all the points. It is really unfair that they have more fans, which equals more money, which equals better players. They players get to the endzone first and won't share the ball Then they gouge us by making it harder for us to score

Doesn't everyone deserve a trophy?

:D Perfect :D

oneounceload
May 22, 2013, 10:08 PM
kwguy: +1, someone else gets it

danez71
May 22, 2013, 11:45 PM
I am a huge football fan. I hate it when the other team hordes all the points. It is really unfair that they have more fans, which equals more money, which equals better players. They players get to the endzone first and won't share the ball :( Then they gouge us by making it harder for us to score

Doesn't everyone deserve a trophy?

If it wasn't for TN giving the Oilers $200+ mill in free handouts, you wouldn't have the Titans.

See.. they did that because the area couldn't compete fairly on their own based on fan base, TV market, and projected ticket sales so TN subsidized so that they could be considered a competitive market.

Everyone deserves a NFL team... right?

:neener:

Certaindeaf
May 22, 2013, 11:49 PM
Third base.

TennJed
May 22, 2013, 11:53 PM
If it wasn't for TN giving the Oilers $200+ mill in free handouts, you wouldn't have the Titans.

See.. they did that because the area couldn't compete fairly on their own based on fan base, TV market, and projected ticket sales so TN subsidized so that they could be considered a competitive market.

Everyone deserves a NFL team... right?

:neener:

I am a memphian and hate the titans. Grew up in central MS and live and die by the saints. So na-na-a-boo-boo

ApacheCoTodd
May 23, 2013, 11:47 AM
Looks and sounds like folk scrambling for meager amounts of bread, gruel or cooking oil in a third world country.

Situations like this make me despair the current American condition. One day maybe it will be bread and milk too. This isn't a market thing - this is a governmental thing.

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