how picky is too picky with accuracy? Example pic included


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bhhacker
May 24, 2013, 10:34 PM
Hey guys,

A little background on my Rifle im reloading for...

It is a Browning BAR made in Belgium and I think its whats called an MKI as it has no engraving. Its an older rifle with a real wood stock, definitely used but in good condition.




Ive been playing with different loads and so far ive been shooting one load WAAAAY better than the others. Its a reduced recoil load and i think thats whats making me shoot better. I am using Hornady 150 grain SST bullets for all these loads.

Its using 12 grains of green dot and not cycling my action and i was told this is probably not a great idea to use, so i am not making any more, but it is by far the most accurate round ive made.

I have included a picture of me comparing shooting that load, vs. a full power load with 46 grains of IMR4895 using same overall length, primer, and bullets.

The reduced recoil loads are the one at the main bullseye


http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/ab143/ooberhack3r/image_zpsd33b5898.jpg (http://s858.photobucket.com/user/ooberhack3r/media/image_zpsd33b5898.jpg.html)

This is at 50 yards. When shooting at 100 yards I can get all shots within an 8 inch black bullseye but they are not really well grouped.



Now i know that this not appropriate load is more accurate, and its driving me crazy that im not getting the same accuracy with my full power loads.

I am using improvised rests and dont have anything high tech to judge if its me or the gun but im sure its probably me flinching a little but i cant prove it.

I dont change the zero because the groupings arent tight and off center if that makes sense so i have to ask you...


Is the lower right set of shots enough for me to stop pulling my hair out, or should i try and work on something with a little less recoil and see if that improves my accuracy?

I am not looking to compete in shooting matches, i just want to be able to kill deer and other 4 legged critters humanely and efficiently. That is my only goal.


as a side note, does anyone have any ideal loads for an autoloader in 30-06?
I have IMR4895, Greendot, Unique, and sr4759 to work with and all shots for hunting will be within 100 yards or less. Am I using too much powder with 46 grains of IMR4895 if all i need are >100 yard shots?

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BullfrogKen
May 24, 2013, 11:06 PM
I'd be surprised if 8 grains of Green Dot even has that bullet going supersonic.


Use that 4895. 44.4 grains starting load; 50.4 maximum load in my Sierra manual.

parker51
May 24, 2013, 11:17 PM
I've never tried Green Dot so I can't say anything about light loads with this powder. As for the IMR4895, according to Hodgdon's reloading data the load you list is about 3 grs. below the recommended "minimum" for a 150 gr. BT so I would guess that this would be a rather light load for the 150 gr. SST's. If you aren't seeing any signs of excessive pressure I would try increasing this load in 5 gr. increments up to around 50 grs. to see if your groups don't tighten up some. I only use 50 yds for setting up sights with a 30.06. If you get your gun sighted in at 100 yds 50 yds shouldn't be but an inch or two different. Just curious, how long have you been reloading and shooting?

Take a look at Hodgdon's web site and see what they recommend for 150 gr. 30.06 loads using IMR4895.

bhhacker
May 24, 2013, 11:37 PM
@ Bullfrog- Not sure if it was a typo on your part or not, but it wasnt 8 grains, it was 12 for the greendot. That might make a difference in fps but im not sure how much off the top of my head.

@ Parker51-I will load some with 49 grain tonight and see how that goes. I dont want to load too much as its an autoloader and i have read that max loads arent smart using semi autos and keeping both hands is a must for my job as a captain up here in alaska :P


I havent been reloading for too long and have been shooting about 5 years off and on. I am getting more serious (trying to) lately though. I have a few books on reloading and stuff and was using the old 30-30 whackamole reloader for a while before graduating to a single stage press.

ArchAngelCD
May 24, 2013, 11:41 PM
Like I said in your other thread, I would not be loading Green Dot with jacketed bullets, especially so light. Green Dot really isn't meant for use in reduced rifle loads.

There are much better choices out there, ones that are tested and safe. The data provided by Hodgdon for H4895 in Published Reduced Loads (http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/H4895%20Reduced%20Rifle%20Loads.pdf) is some of that tested and safe data.

Another and fairly new load uses Trail Boss for that light load. Using a 150gr bullet in the 30-06 you can produce a very light recoiling load which can go as low as 14,700 PSI up to only 26,400 PSI but done safely.

Finally, there is the older and time tested light rifle load using IMR SR 4759. That powder has been pushing bullets down rifle barrels at reduced pressures for MANY years. I'm not completely sure it's used with jacketed bullets but it works GREAT with lead bullets.

So, like I said before, there are plenty of good choices out there that are safe to use. I just don't feel using Green Dot is one of them. If it were me and I wanted to load reduced recoil loads and use them for light hunting I would be loading H4895 reduced loads. Again, time tested and safe... (those are with H4895, not IMR4895)

BullfrogKen
May 24, 2013, 11:59 PM
I've never tried Green Dot so I can't say anything about light loads with this powder. As for the IMR4895, according to Hodgdon's reloading data the load you list is about 3 grs. below the recommended "minimum" for a 150 gr. BT so I would guess that this would be a rather light load for the 150 gr. SST's. If you aren't seeing any signs of excessive pressure I would try increasing this load in 5 gr. increments up to around 50 grs. to see if your groups don't tighten up some.


No it is NOT.

Hodgdon shows 47.0 as a start, and 50.8 as the max for IMR 4895 and a 150 gr bullet. 46.0 grains of powder is just under the recommended start.


hacker - save your Green Dot for pistol and shotgun rounds. You can put holes in paper playing around with light loads like that, but trying to use Green Dot to get a .30-06 round traveling at enough velocity to kill a deer is not wise. Especially if you are a new reloader and do not have a chronograph.

Use the rifle propellant you already have on hand.

parker51
May 25, 2013, 01:11 AM
No it is not.

Hodgdon shows 47.0 as a start, and 50.8 as the max for IMR 4895 and a 150 gr bullet. 46.0 grains of powder is just under the recommended start.


You might want to double check this. I just checked again and they still have Nosler 150 gr. BT's with a starting load of 49 grs. with a max of 53 grs. listed on their website.

ArchAngelCD
May 25, 2013, 01:56 AM
You are both right. Hodgdon is listing 2 different Nosler 150gr bullets and you both listed the correct data for those 2 different bullets.

bhhacker
May 25, 2013, 03:42 AM
ArchAngelCD-I have taken your advice and not loaded any more of the green dot loads. I am just wanting to replicate their tight grouping patterns.


The powder I have on hand is pretty much the only stuff that can be used as there is no more product to buy, so i have sr4759, green dot, IMR4895 and Unique and that will be it for a while.


Tonight, while waiting for responses, I have loaded 20 rounds using the same 150 grain bullet using 22 grains of sr4759 and also 20 rounds using 48 grains of IMR4895 to see how that effects accuracy.


I have also been asking around to see if anyone local has a chronograph so i can check the FPS of these loads because ive read that the SR4759 at 22-24 grains matches the fps of a 30-30 load that can be used for hunting, but also read that it runs at like 1800fps too so i need to find out which is true.


Can anyone shed some light on that for me? I think ill be able to get to the range on sunday to check it out and show my results.





I have 150 grain Hornady SST bullets (ones im using currently), 135 grain lead bullets and 165 lead bullets from missouri bullet co, 165 sierras, and 180 grain nosler e-tips as well.

Just trying to find a perfect compromise of reliable, accurate loads that arent going to kill my shoulder but will kill deer

FROGO207
May 25, 2013, 09:32 AM
If you are concerned about recoil get a Limbsaver recoil pad for your rifle. For the recoil sensitive this will do wonders for you and they are presently in stock at Midway to fit your rifle I believe. Then get to work finding some good loads for that rifle. FWIW I usually work up to around mid range or mid high data and that is where I find a most accurate load that will eject well in a semi auto. No crimp on the neck and good neck tension are as important as repeatable propellant amounts to me. FWIW I only crimp rifle rounds when they will be used in a tubular MAG rifle like say a 30-30.

I have a good load that works well in two different bolt 30-06 rifles of mine and a friends autoloader using 52.0 grains IMR4895 and a 150 grain Hornaday bullet. May work well for you but work up to it to be safe. I have also had good luck with H4350 and Ramshot Big Game with various 150 grain bullets before.

243winxb
May 25, 2013, 10:04 AM
30-06
150 gr Rem bullet
SR-4759-31.0 gr Maximum
2365 fps
Pressure 49,700 CUP
COL 3.200"
(Steve's Pages - SR-4759 From 20.0 grains to 31.0 grains)

bhhacker
May 25, 2013, 11:05 AM
with that older dupont data, why is it so reduced nowadays? I have read from various sources that the min is 20 grains, and max is 24 grains, but you are saying max is 31 grains now?

Does it beat up the rifle a little more or are people more concerned with lawsuits and such nowadays?

Certaindeaf
May 25, 2013, 11:09 AM
I think the 12 grains of Green-Dot load is fine and fairly proper.
Green-Dot is one tic slower than Red-Dot and the classic reduced load, "The Load" is 13 grains of Red-Dot, especially out of the 30-06.

243winxb
May 25, 2013, 11:29 AM
Does it beat up the rifle a little more or are people more concerned with lawsuits and such nowadays? you are saying max is 31 grains now? It is old data from Dupont, the manufacture of the powder at the time of printing.
I would never us SR4759 in an auto loading rifle. Fast burn rates of powder can make dangerous pressure very fast. Start low and work up the powder charge as always. IMR 4895 is the powder you want to use. :)

mtrmn
May 25, 2013, 11:40 AM
If shooting off a bench, it makes a HUGE difference where you place the front rest on a BAR. I've never owned one, but I've worked with a couple over the years that belonged to friends who wanted me to work up a load for them.
If you place the front rest as close as possible to the receiver you will get the best groups. On the ones I shot, placing the forearm on the front rest was just as bad as resting the barrel on something. Groups got steadily bigger the farther forward you placed the rest under the forearm. Barrel heating had a huge effect on groups as well. Finally had to fire one shot, wait 15 minutes and fire another.

243winxb
May 25, 2013, 12:54 PM
bhhacker, don't confuse or use load data for lead & jacketed bullets as being the same. A fast powder like Green Dot may be used with cast bullets with proper data, but is a poor choice for jacketed bullets. SR4759 may be used for both jacketed and lead/cast bullets, but still needs correct data. Lead/cast will not withstand the pressure of a maximum powder charge used for a jacketed bullet.

Certaindeaf
May 25, 2013, 02:50 PM
.A fast powder like Green Dot may be used with cast bullets with proper data, but is a poor choice for jacketed bullets.
Well I don't know about that, Green-Dot is right close to Red-Dot.

bhhacker
May 26, 2013, 11:50 PM
I think i found my load! All these shots were taken at 80 yards as the long range area was taken up by a local shooting competition today so i had to make due with what i had

http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/ab143/ooberhack3r/image_zpsbab263bd.jpg (http://s858.photobucket.com/user/ooberhack3r/media/image_zpsbab263bd.jpg.html)

That is 48 grains of IMR 4895 with my 150 grain Hornady SST bullet



http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/ab143/ooberhack3r/image2_zpsdb973c27.jpg (http://s858.photobucket.com/user/ooberhack3r/media/image2_zpsdb973c27.jpg.html)

i loaded and shot my next 3 shot group using 22 grains of SR4759 shown above which also didnt cycle my action


the last is 3 shots of my green dot but i noticed something strange about this load...the primers seem to be very flat when compared to the other loadings of fired brass i have. instead of a dimple in the middle, its more flat all the way around.


http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/ab143/ooberhack3r/image3_zpsdfe9f6e1.jpg (http://s858.photobucket.com/user/ooberhack3r/media/image3_zpsdfe9f6e1.jpg.html)

James2
May 27, 2013, 01:03 AM
Some times it may be the shooter.

Sometimes it may be the rifle or scope.

Here are some suggestions. Make sure the scope mounting screws are tight. Make sure the screw holding the barrel to the stock is tight.

Use a shooting bench complete with sandbags if at all possible. We want to do what we can to minimize shooter error. I used to shoot over the hood of my truck using a pillow to help hold the rifle steady. What an improvement when I switched to a bench and sandbags.

Hold the rifle the same every shot. Take a breath, let part of it out, hold breath, line up and squeeze.

You know, you are gong to get belted, and it is a natural reaction for the body to flinch away from it. It takes some talking to oneself to reassure yourself it is not going to do any serious damage and you don't need to jump. A little self hypnosis so you don't flinch.

James2
May 27, 2013, 01:17 AM
Oh forgot to address the question: "how picky is too picky with accuracy?"

Depends on you I guess. Would'nt we all like to see them all so close it was just one ragged hole? We can strive for that and see what we can learn.

bhhacker
May 27, 2013, 01:37 AM
Thanks!


I took some advice and placed the rest as close back as i could. I also took my time, took 3 deep breaths and shot on the 3rd exhale. I waited a good while inbetween shots as well and got these groupings.



I definitely feel comfortable with the accuracy of 48 grains of imr4895 and am looking forward to taking my first deer with my own hand load!

thump_rrr
May 27, 2013, 03:39 AM
Next time do yourself a favor and develop the load properly.
You started out using 46 gr of IMR 4895 and then jumped to 48 gr.

There are 2 things that could have occurred.
1) you may have gone over maximum load for your rifle
2) You may have blown right past an accuracy node.

Start at the minimum load and increase in 0.5 gr incriments till you start getting close to maximum then you go down to 0.2 gr incriments.
If you see any signs of excessive pressure you don't shoot the remainder of the cartridges.

ArchAngelCD
May 27, 2013, 11:48 AM
That 48.0gr IMR4895 load looks good and accurate too. I would stick with it instead of messing with fast pistol/shotgun powders, especially in an auto-loader.

bhhacker
May 27, 2013, 01:01 PM
@thump_rrr- In my Lyman #9 reloading manual the max grains for a 150 grain bullet using IMR 4895 is 50 so me jumping up from 46 to 48 shouldnt be close to going over the max right? Or does that mean that there are guns out there that cannot be loaded to even published grain maxes? I figured that as long as the rifle wasnt rickety and was in good condition it should be able to handle at least those published loads. Im not being snarky, im genuinely asking by the way.

I would have gone in half grain increments if i was using my own press, but im going over to a buddies place with all my "ingredients" and didnt want to keep bugging him all week doing a bunch of reloading each night so i went up from the 46 grains (which was lower than suggested to start with) up to the 48 to see if there was an improvement. So not an excuse, just the reasoning behind what i did what i did.

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