Thoughts on mouse guns?

[Drjones]

Hi.

Yours truly is considering the purchase of *gasp* a mouse gun! Specifically, a Seecamp .32.

Some say its better than a harsh word, other opinions don't seem so sure.

What do you guys think?

I guess a .32 in hand is better than a .45 or .50AE in the safe at home...

[Preacherman]

Depends what you want it for. If it's a backup gun, sure, there's a place for a mouse gun - although even there, I'd prefer to have a backup gun with a bit more power than the rodent calibers. If it's for a primary weapon, no way!

I know all the arguments about the "caliber wars" - but having seen far too many shootings at first hand (and been a reluctant participant on both the giving and receiving ends in quite a few of them!), I have learned the hard way that the ancient wisdom of "use enough gun" is very, very true. If it's less than .38 Special in a revolver, or 9mm. Parabellum (or the hotter .380 ACP loads) in a pistol, the round is not likely to produce the speed of incapacitation that you need to keep yourself alive at close quarters - at least, not without a CNS shot. The .32 H&R Magnum, or .32 ACP, may be very efficient killing rounds, but they're not that great as stopping rounds - and a stop, rather than a kill, is what you're wanting in a defensive firearm.

[Double Naught Spy]

A Seecamp in the hand is better than a gun left at home, no doubt. That is solid reasoning. The problem comes with application of said reasoning. I hear about this all the time. People will carry the mouse gun because it is 'better than nothing' even though they had the chance to carry something larger and better. This is what I consider as being defensively lazy. You hear things like, the .45 is too big to carry all the time, too heavy, can't carry with shorts, etc. Right. So the question regards whether you want to have a solid defense gun or be lazy and carry something not known for great stopping power, the .32.

The Seecamp is supposed to be a great little gun, but as a BUG, not a primary. You should only carry it when you can't carry something better, not for when you just don't want to carry something larger.

[mini14jac]

I've carried a P32 for years, recently upgraded to a P3AT (.380).
When we decide to carry a "minimum" caliber, we need to realize that we may be compromising our safety, or that of someone we care about.

That said, I still haven't adjusted my mode of dress to carry a larger caliber most of the time.
I'm working on it.

My in-between gun is a Kahr PM9. I can pocket carry it most of the time that I can carry the .380 or .32.

From what I've read, the Seecamp is a good gun.
I've always been fascinated by small precision machines, so I've always wanted one.
Probably won't ever get one though, because I feel that the KelTec products do the same job, better.
But, the KelTec guns don't feel like a Swiss watch.

Buy the Seecamp if:
1. It really rings your bell
2. You can afford it
3. You don't mind testing ammo until you find some you can
practice with, or just shooting Silvertips

If you buy it, then never leave home without it. :D

[azrael]

Seecamp= good little weapon

I was seriously considering getting one until I heard of the Rorbaugh 9mm...So for now Iwill just stick with a Kel-tec P-32or P3AT until I can save my pennies:D

[MikeJ]

Another point to consider, IMO, is where and when are you going to be carrying it? I have a NAA Guardian in .32 that I carry frequently when I am going to the grocery store during the day and other low level risk applications. I am well aware of the argument that anything can happen at any time but I do believe that there are definitely levels of something going wrong. When I am out for my evening stroll I always carry something more powerful or when I am hiking by myself etc. The bottomline, as far as I am concerned, is evaluating your lifestyle and your own risk levels. Obviously if someone should attack you I am certain you would want the most powerful gun possible, its all a matter of compromise for what I believe is the great majority of us.

[DMK]

A Seecamp in the hand is better than a gun left at home, no doubt. That is solid reasoning. The problem comes with application of said reasoning. I agree with this and realized it when I bought my little J-frame pocket gun. I tend throw this in the pocket around the house, working in the yard and when running out to the store. Now maybe some of those times, I might not have carried at all, but before I had the revolver, at least some of those times I would have strapped on the 1911.

[The Tourist]

DMK touches on another point to this debate, the 5-shot SW J-frame series. There are new titanium abd scandium revolvers that weren't around a few years ago, and now make .38 SPL and .357 Mag a real option.

In the bad old days of the early 1970's, I was a bill collector, and we carried what we wanted, even in my liberal town. There was a difference then between 'good guys' and 'bad guys,' and a punch in the nose from a bad guy was not what it is today. It was considered a 'boys will be boys' thing and part of my job. In fact, the worst 'serial debtor' we had always had a small SW 10 tucked into his belt ala Beretta, and to my knowledge he was never arrested.

By the late 1970's, that attitude had changed. The same bill collectors were now slamming the idea of being armed, while a few denied it and carried anyway. I didn't need the heat of a job loss, and I carried a Bauer stainless .25 ACP, a Browning clone, with wooden grips instead of the thicker mother-of-pearl ones.

A Seecamp was and is a well made piece of ordnance. However, if faced with the same limitations, I would go with the newer SW J-frames.

[QuarterBoreGunner]

Some say its better than a harsh wordDon't forget pointed sticks... guns are better than pointed sticks.

I picked up the NAA Guardian 32; the Seecamp being infrequently available here in Cali (and now not at all) and just not worth the $600plus they were asking for it last time I saw one for sale. Personal opinion, and of course YMMV.

All of the salient points seem to have been covered already; just keep clear in your mind what envelope you want the lil' guy to fit and be realistic.

Example: when I was practicing previous to range qualifying with the Guardian, I was having difficulty keeping all of my shots inside the 8-ring on a standard B27 at 15 yds. Now normally I wouldn’t even bother practicing with this particular cartridge/gun combo at that distance, ‘cause that’s not what the firearms was designed for. But that’s what the Sheriff’s Office required for its range qualification. I get to the range to do the course of fire and guess what? The Sheriff’s Office has as part of it’s CCW regs, that you MUST do the shooting section of the qualification, drawing and firing, from the holster you will be carrying the firearms in. No exceptions. Well, I never picked up a holster for the 32, figuring that it was the type of weapon that I’d just toss in a pocket and go. No holster, no shooting. So even with all my plans, the Guardian is not on my current CCW.

See, the envelope I had envisioned the 32 for was not the same as what the Sheriff’s Office had envisioned, and I was trying to make it fit. No go. (I still think I was right though… who tries for a 15yd shot with a dinky .32? It’s a BELLY GUN FER GOSH SAKES!…but I’m not bitter :banghead: ).

[Shawn Dodson]

I regard mouse guns as "shoot & scoot" guns. They exist to create an opportunity for escape, IMO.

I carry one frequently -- a Beretta Tomcat -- that I put in my pocket just before I leave the house to run a quick errand when I don't want to jock up with my Glock 19.

[pinetree64]

I carry a Keltec P32. I have found it to be accurate enough and reliable at the range. I don't kid myself about the 32acp's power but concealibility is of the utmost importance. I also have an ultralight 38spcl snubbie, but it spends most of the time in my wife's nightstand.

If I didn't work in corporate America and could wear other clothing, I would wear clothes to conceal my Kimber compact.

[QuarterBoreGunner]

So Drjones? Are these the sort of thoughts you were thinking of?

[PALEFACE]

yeah you might kill him with a 32 but not before he kills you. imho not that it means to much but i would never go any lower than 9mm parabellum

[Drjones]

Yes, QB, these are the sorts of thoughts I was looking for.

I guess I'm just trying to get an idea of how much better than a harsh word or pointy stick such a small caliber gun is. :)

[arinvolvo]

I frequently toss my Autauga 32 (seecamp clone) in my pocket when 120 degree temperatures here in Las Vegas dont permit anything bigger...which is often.

No, no PISTOL is ideal for self defense...not even large bore pistols...dont discount the smaller calibers. Any pistol presented will make a lot of noise, and give anyone pause..hopefully enough for you to get away...which is why we carry anyway...to escape danger. NOT to send our assailant to a firey lead filled grave.

With that said, I have a Kahr MK 9mm in the mail to me now...it will most likely be replacing the 32 as my "small" gun. :D

[Bob F.]

Mouse guns are also known as "face guns"; meaning you dump the whole mag into the assailant's face! I occassionally carry a Berreta .25ACP and am amazed at how accurate is. I'm a private citizen and may well go all my life and never need a gun for self-defense, but....

If I know there's going to be trouble, I'll bring an AK-47 and 10ga shotty, both with drum mags and grenade launchers, or move to Alaska!

Normally carry a G 19 or Compact 1911 .45.

Stay safe.
Bob

[jame]

I owned and carried a .32 Tomcat for a few months, but the confidence level was always uncomfortably low.

I purchased a Mountainsmith Tour lumbar pack that I also carry with a shoulder sling. I plan on mounting a cheap nylon holster inside the bag ala velcro, and carrying a Ruger .357 Security Six with a 2 3/4" barrel. I carry the pack daily anyway, so my appearance doesn't change. It's just as easy to grab my day pack, (OK.....man purse, or whatever you want to call it) as it was to retrive and pocket the Tomcat.

And my confidence is back up.

[roscoe]

I can't see carrying a Seecamp when the P3AT is available - lighter, more power, cheaper, just a bit less satisfying in the aesthetics department.

[russlate]

It's not on my ccw list but I have a Beretta 25 acp with 4" barrel.

And two loaded spare mags, plus the one in the gun.

Add a couple or even 300 rounds and it all still fits inside a quart-size baggie.

Make an interesting chambering for a 10" Contender barrel.

[Lancel]

There are those people who will stop when shot and those who will not. The caliber used is often more of a catalyst than a cause. Which is why we say "Placement, placement, placement" and not "Caliber, caliber, caliber".

Determined soldiers have continued to function (e.g. shoot the enemy) after horrendous wounds. Even if they died within five seconds, they weren't stopped from doing damage.

If someone will be stopped by a handgun it will ideally happen before the trigger is pulled.

Caliber has more relevance to my mental comfort than it does to stopping power.

BTW my Seecamp has functioned great for 15 years and has given me comfort; bigger calibers have at times given me more comfort.

Larry

[Chuck Jennings]

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=817961

[Drjones]

Jame: I'm not comfortable with off-body carry. I have already resorted to keeping my (rather large) folder and flashlight in my suit jacket pockets, and I am uncomfortable even with that. I want them ON me, but its difficult with a suit.

Knife is a Strider Tac GB and light is a SF L4, BTW.

Roscoe: Who makes the P3AT? In my state, not all handguns are legal. :cuss:


I think that I'll go with the Seecamp as a pocket gun primarily for when I'm in a suit. I read in another thread about being realistic about threat levels, and I think that is very salient to my situation.

I work in good areas, and believe the threat to be low.

Other times when I am able, I will have a larger weapon on me.

Thanks for all the replies guys!

Oh, and thanks for the obligatory pic. ;)

[Chuck Jennings]

Who makes the P3AT? In my state, not all handguns are legal.

P3AT is a Kel-Tec. I feel your pain. none of the Kel-Tecs ar legal in Cali. (They won't submit them for testing. They don't fele like getting shaken down.) Seecamps are only legal if you get the CA/MA model that has a manual safety.

[mountainclmbr]

I normally carry a Kahr MK40 .40 cal in a pocket holster. I take the gun when I buy clothes to make sure the gun/holster fit properly in the pocket. This is as mousy as I have gotten lately. I had a bad situation evolve years ago and did not feel too reassured with my .380.

The .380 would be better than a sharp stick though!

I prefer to carry .45 because, in the instance where you need a gun, you really, really need it to do the job.

I would rather have a .25 than nothing:)

[rolltide]

I think the term "mouse gun" is extremely misleading. It gives people less confidence than they should have in calibers like the 32 and more confidence they should have in calibers like the 380 and the 38 special, especially in a snub nose.

1. Like several have said, NO HANDGUN is going to stop a determined adversary before they can exert lethal force against you unless you have a CNS shot.

2. A 32 in the brain or spine will likely be as effective as a 38 special or even larger caliber.

3. I carry a 32 all the time and count on having to "shoot and scoot" as someone said. I think some with larger calibers should likely employ the same attitude, but may not because they think they have a "stopper".

4. For a common criminal who is going to be looking for the exit when he finds out his "victim" is armed, the 32 will deter as well as bigger weapons. For someone who is going to kill you or die trying, if you both have handguns, you are both likely to trade shots until the gun is empty no matter what caliber you are carrying. Larger calibers and proper loads will incapacitate quicker that a 32, but not quick enough to keep someone from emptying their weapon at you unless they are hit with a CNS shot.


I said all that to say that the real difference between "mouse guns" and "major calibers" is probably exaggerated.

The truth of the matter is that many, many people "stop" an attack when shot with a 22 while others take a mag load of 45's and keep coming. Even rifles and shotguns sometime fail to stop a determined adversay before they can shoot back if they are on drugs or are determined enough to take you out on their way out. Fortunately, most attackers are just not that determined.

Like most everyone else here, I carry a "primary" caliber and load if I think a serious threat is likely, but I don't think ANY HANDGUN should be thought of as a real "stopper". I think we would be wise to adopt a "shoot and scoot" philosophy no matter which handgun you carry. Of course, even if the advantage of larger calibers is somewhat exaggerated, any advantage is a good thing in a life or death situation.

I consider the 22's and 25's as sub calibers.

I consider the 32's, 380's and any snubnose revolver under the 357 as mid calibers because the best 32ACP loads, 380 loads, and 38 special snubnose revolvers all seem to have about the same "stopping" effect in documented shooting cases.

Major calibers do have greater psychological and physiological stopping effect than either the "sub calibers" or the "mid calibers." The question is this:

Does it make any difference if someone "stops" in 30 seconds or 30 minutes when it only takes them 3 seconds to empty their weapon at you?

Stay safe

Roll Tide

http://www.geocities.com/mgsdrs/DARE.jpg

[DFBonnett]

Thoughts on mouse guns?

Winston Chuchill's bodyguard carried a .32 but he could snap a head shot at 50 paces. Using that as a guide, most of the rest of us should probably carry nothing smaller than an M72 LAW.
All that crap being said, carry whatever you feel you can get the job done with.

[Bainx]

I remember being very excited about buying my P32. It seemed to be the answer to all defense problems. But like posted above, I have since reconsidered and if I possibly can, carry at least a P11 or similar. The mousegun is absolutely a last ditch type primary. It is at best, a quasi reasonable backup gun.