45 ACP in Uberti SAA


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wgf
May 30, 2013, 10:43 PM
I just tried out my new 45 ACP cylinder in my 7.5" Uberti SSA. It appears to function well. Ejecting the empty cases was a non event. I thought that might have been a draw back. I only shot 15 cartridges due to a time constraint. I am sure you can guess I added the new cylinder for the convenience of using the one type cartridge in two guns. Does anyone have any tips for using the 45 ACP in the SSA that may not be apparent at first? I fired 230 FMJ this time, I will normally use 200 gr lead swc.

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DPris
May 31, 2013, 12:42 AM
No tips, aside from not using a roll crimp if you handload, just use whatever comes closest to matching the point of aim.
And SAA is correctly a Colt-only term, for future reference. :)
Denis

StrawHat
May 31, 2013, 10:54 AM
I have a two cylinder SAA from Italy also. In mine, I like the 255 grain cast lead bullets, usually Lyman 454190 or 454424. I am also working with the RCBS 270 SWC but have not yet been to the range with those loads. I got mine from a fellow who added the cylinder to unload ACP rounds too weak to work his 1911! My other ACPs are a Model 25-2 and a converted Model 28-2 so I don't have the same issues.

Finding a load to hit to the same point of aim is going to be the challenge.

wgf
May 31, 2013, 05:51 PM
I should have said SAA copy.
The 230 FMJs were store bought reloads and hit point of aim. I will look try out my 1911 loads as soon as I can, they may hit a little low. I'll check out the Hand loading forum for other suggestions that may work better for the 1911 and the SSA.

joecil
May 31, 2013, 07:20 PM
I have a Uberti/Cimarron 7.5" barrel SAA also with the 45 ACP cylinder. It has worked well with no problems now for over a year and I shot more 45 ACP than 45 Colt at the range with it.

DPris
May 31, 2013, 08:12 PM
Remember- Only YOU can prevent forest fires, and only COLT manufactures the Single Action Army...
Denis

wgf
May 31, 2013, 10:45 PM
Do the 45 ACP seem to be as accurate as the 45 Colt? I have heard the have a longer jump to the forcing cone is a detriment.

DPris
May 31, 2013, 11:59 PM
No absolutes, you just have to try & see what happens.
Denis

barnetmill
June 1, 2013, 09:29 AM
If you reload remember loads intended for the longer .45 colt revolver case tend to use more power to the achieve the same velocities that lesser charges will get in the shorter .45 ACP case. Some mixed up load combinations could generate very high pressures.

cpt-t
June 1, 2013, 10:24 AM
wgf: I have been shooting a 45 cal Ruger blackhawk Convertible since 1971. And I have used the ACP cylinder quite often. I find the 45 acp shoots about 1 higher than the 45 LC at 25 yards. I think you will really like shooting you 45 ACP cylinder and be very glad you bought. If I could help you any way, I would be happy to do so.
ken

wgf
June 1, 2013, 06:36 PM
Thanks for all the good info. I am going to shoot some of my 45ACP reloads as soon as possible. I appreciate the encouraging reports.

Maj Dad
June 1, 2013, 08:30 PM
Apparently USFA makes SAAs, too. I doubt they are available with 45acp cylinders, though... ;)
http://www.turnbullmfg.com/store.asp?pid=36515

rcmodel
June 1, 2013, 08:34 PM
Apparently USFA makes SAAs, too.I don't believe USFA is making anything now except the Zip Gun.

http://www.usfirearms.com/

All SAA production has been stopped to concentrate on Zip Guns.

rc

Gary A
June 2, 2013, 12:19 AM
All SAA production has been stopped to concentrate on Zip Guns.
I admit to not being the most knowledgeable or the smartest guy in the world, but that is the strangest development I think I have ever seen in a firearms company. To drop high quality single-actions for that. Just inexplicable, to me.

There just has to be more to the story, though I can't imagine what it is.

DPris
June 2, 2013, 01:30 AM
Sigh.
The Single Action Army is a Colt trademark.
No other maker can legitimately label a copy as such.
There are other single actions, but no other Single Action Army.

Calling a clone an SAA displays a beginner's lack of knowledge.
To continually refer to a clone as an SAA displays laziness. :)

We get all uptight & indignant whenever anybody calls a magazine a clip, the same correctitude should apply here.

And, USFA plans to resume their revolvers in two years, but I seriously doubt it'll happen.
The Zipper is all that's left right now.
Denis

CraigC
June 2, 2013, 10:27 AM
Actually, USFA's were available as .45 convertibles.

I know it's technically incorrect, I will drive Denis mad and probably be called a hypocrite by others for my position on other terminology issues but I have no problem calling the replicas "SAA". That is, as long as we know we're not talking about a Colt. If it's branded Uberti, Pietta, EMF, Cimarron, Dixie Gun Works, Taylor's or USFA we know it's a replica. Maybe it is laziness but it's easier for everyone to "know what I mean" than trying to remember all the little names the manufacturers and importers come up with to call their SAA replicas. No different from calling all the variouis 1911-style pistols "1911", regardless of brand. The design has transcended its original maker.

There are also those who believe that "clone" is a biological term and should not be applied to replicas. :neener:

Jim Watson
June 2, 2013, 10:51 AM
As far as nomenclature goes, I don't think calling off brand single action revolvers "SAAs" is as bad as the common practice of referring to every autopistol with Colt/Browning lockwork as a "1911."

DPris
June 2, 2013, 01:33 PM
Craig,
That would be "mad-ER", not just mad. :)

I'm not suggesting trying to remember every single-action non-Colt by its name, just suggesting the use of "Uberti SA" or "Uberti single-action".
Or Pietta single-action, or whatever.

Easy & correct, instead of making every non-Ruger a "Single Action Army" generic.

Denis

rcmodel
June 2, 2013, 01:39 PM
Maybe you should call Cimarron and give them a piece of your mind too!

http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/cartridge-revolvers.html

rc

CraigC
June 2, 2013, 01:39 PM
You know I have to seize opportunities to do a little ribbing. My favorite sixgun manufacturer is dead, you could at least humor me a little.....for pity's sake if nothing else. :neener:

I agree with you on principle. We definitely need to be specific about 'who' made the dang thing but "Uberti single action" is way too vague. You know how many different models of Colt replicas as well as non-Colt replicas they make. While "Uberti SAA" is much more specific, for we know what model is being referenced.

What gripes me is when Rugers are referred to as "SAA". As if it were the generic term for all single actions.

DPris
June 2, 2013, 02:48 PM
RC,
A few years back, Colt was getting quite adamant about anybody in the manufacturing/importing biz doing or labeling anything they felt was coming too close to Colt "property", and going after them legally.
I talked to their lead legal counsel at the time.
You saw what happened with AWA in the lawsuit.

During this period, one writer was, since you bring it up, submitting an article to a particular mag editor on the Cimarron Model P, and calling it "Peacemaker".
When I got that article to proof it, I removed Peacemaker all the way through it, to avoid potential legal problems for both the publishing house and Cimarron, since Peacemaker is very clearly a Colt property & nobody else has the right to use it in naming a gun.

A part of the Colt lawsuit against AWA at the time involved AWA using "Peacekeeper" as a model name, which Colt felt infringed on their 1980s DA .357 Mag revolver of the same name.

Colt's lightened up a bit since, but the only true Single Action Army IS a Colt, since it's a Colt model.
I believe you'll see that Cimarron isn't calling, labeling, or stamping their guns Single Action Army, they're calling them the Model P, which is a different situation.

Aside from that, I don't have enough mind left to be piecing it out in great volume. :)

Craig,
That's the thing behind my gripe- SAA for the lazy has become a generic for ALL single-actions. :)
Denis

rcmodel
June 2, 2013, 02:52 PM
I believe you'll see that Cimarron isn't calling, labeling, or stamping their guns Single Action Army,But is says right in bold print on the webpage I linked,

SINGLE ACTION ARMY
MODEL 'P" PRE-WAR.

rc

CraigC
June 2, 2013, 02:54 PM
I was surprised to see AWA calling their gun "Peacekeeper" and less surprised that Colt sued them for it. I think many thought it was because it was too close to "Peacemaker". Most being totally unaware of the Peacekeeper DA of the 1980's.

I'm surprised Cimarron would even take the chance with "Single Action Army".

DPris
June 2, 2013, 03:32 PM
RC,
Yes, I saw that.
I don't believe you see Single Action Army on the guns, or the boxes, or the packaging. :)
As I also said- Colt has lightened up a bit, which I'd imagine lets Cimarron use the SAA on their web PAGE, but certainly not on their guns.

If you look closer, none of the individual models is listed as a Single Action Army.
Model P is an internal Colt model designation, as you know, and has never been used commercially by them as a model designator, so Cimarron CAN use that as their own official "model" name, which is what they're doing.

Colt was even looking unfavorably at one point on barrel markings that included ".45 Colt" on other brands' guns.


Denis

Feanaro
June 2, 2013, 03:51 PM
I'm not suggesting trying to remember every single-action non-Colt by its name, just suggesting the use of "Uberti SA" or "Uberti single-action".

Uberti makes single action revolvers based on other designs. So to combat one inaccuracy you are suggesting we replace it with another, even less clear inaccuracy?

:evil:

DPris
June 2, 2013, 04:01 PM
I'm suggesting that people not refer to a non-Colt gun as a Colt model.

Again, if somebody dares to call a magazine a clip, thirty people will pile on immediately.
I see this is no different.

If it's a '57 Thunderbird, don't call it a Corvette just because both were two-door American sports cars of the same general size.

If it's a genuine SAA, call it that.
If it's not, don't.

Products have names for a reason, so we can tell them apart.

In Europe for many years "Browning" became generic for "pistol", but when discussing a "Browning" it didn't then & doesn't now really help anybody in knowing what's being talked about without more specifics.

You want to talk specifically about one particular Uberti model, use its name.
Otherwise "Uberti SA" works.
Uberti SAA doesn't exist.

Denis

35 Whelen
June 2, 2013, 04:09 PM
I don't believe USFA is making anything now except the Zip Gun.

http://www.usfirearms.com/

All SAA production has been stopped to concentrate on Zip Guns.

rc
RC I found this address for USFA: http://www.usfasingleactions.com/ . It's just a page that does not lead anywhere, but sure gives the impression of things to possibly come in the future.

Regarding the SAA thing, really, is it THAT big of a deal? Is it any worse than someone referring to their Rock Island Armory or Norinco .45 ACP as a "1911"? We all know what they mean, right?

Edit to add: I have a few Uberti/Cimarron single actions and enjoy them immensely. One in particular is a 4 3/4" made for Cabelas and chambered in 44/40. I bought and fitted a .44 Special cylinder to it and shoot it constantly, typically 3 or 4 sessions a week. I intend to acquire a 45 Colt soon and will likely buy and fit a 45 ACP cylinder to it.

35W

CraigC
June 2, 2013, 04:24 PM
The single action side of USFA is dead. All the skilled staff is gone. The machinery is gone. Turnbull is now selling off all the parts that were left. I would never say never but as of right now, I'd consider USFA gone, VERY unlikely to return.

Very, very sad indeed.

DPris
June 2, 2013, 04:26 PM
Don't hold your breath on USFA revolvers. :)

The "1911" HAS come to be a generic descriptor for the type, but even "1911" was never a specific registered trademark, intellectual property, or trade dress issue in commercial terms, only military.

I can equally ask if "clip" is really that big a deal when people use the word. :)
Denis

35 Whelen
June 2, 2013, 04:47 PM
Ah, I had no idea all the parts had been sold off. I did notice though that the page at the link I provided was copyrighted in 2013...? Weird.

After acquiring and shooting a few Uberti's, I often wonder how folks like USFA and Colt stay in business. The .44 Special I mentioned easily does < 8" @ 100 yds. with cast handloads. Why would I want to pay 3 - 4 times more for a USFA or Colt unless it's just a status symbol thing.

DPris, I think you've made your point. And I honestly don't care if someone refers to a clip as a magazine or a magazine as a clip, but thanks.

CraigC
June 2, 2013, 05:15 PM
It's not a status symbol thing. Uberti and Pietta make good guns for the money and I have a bunch of them. However, USFA is better in every way than even contemporary Colt's and were more affordable to boot. Their standard SA, which was equivalent to a modern Colt SAA, could be had for about $750 before the prices went up a few years ago. Their Pre-war model (like the one pictured) featured authentic charcoal blue finishes and went for the same price as a hot blued Colt at around ~$1200. All their guns were very precisely made, nearly as well as a Freedom Arms. While virtually any new Colt or import needs an action job out of the box, USFA's are as smooth inside as out and need only new springs. It would be exceedingly difficult to build a better sixgun. Hamilton Bowen commented that there is little he can do to improve them and when it came time to build his $10,000-$15,000 Keith #5 replicas, he chose USFA Flat-top Target models, not Colt New Frontiers. Their lockwork feels more like that of a fine Swiss watch when you operate them.

http://photos.imageevent.com/newfrontier45/sixgunsiii/large/IMG_0953b.jpg


Compared to Uberti:
http://photos.imageevent.com/newfrontier45/sixgunsii/large/Uberti%20.32WCF%20-%20001.JPG

DPris
June 2, 2013, 05:31 PM
For me it's not status, it's much more.
I've owned & worked with borrowed Ubertis over several years, not a single one came near the Colts in overall quality.
I was happy to spend the money to buy my Colts, my Ubertis & AWA are now all gone, and my Colts (with upgrades by Peacemaker Specialists) could not be replaced for less than $3000 each, starting with a new gun.
Put that much money into a Uberti & you won't end up with the same level of either quality or value.

I did talk to Eddie at PS about doing some work on a nice USFA I had here for a while, but he says he doesn't work on anything but Colts because he has them down to a science & what he does to them doesn't give the same results in anything else.

Not knocking anybody who likes the Italian guns & who's satisfied with 'em, just responding to 35's question about how Colt stays in business.

There's also a certain...thing...about a Colt Peacemaker that no Italian copy can ever possibly equal, for some of us. :)
It's not the braggin' rights, it's the havin'. :)
We do have a USFA Rodeo here, but it doesn't go very far. Colts are simply...more.

USFA used to put out some very nice guns, and it's a shame they no longer do.
Denis

CraigC
June 2, 2013, 05:41 PM
It's not the braggin' rights, it's the havin'.
It's sitting in your favorite hunting spot and admiring the hardware you've brought with you. Whether it's a fine rifle, shotgun or sixshooter. There's no one there to show off to. Just you and your enjoyment of one of the finer things in life. One of those intangible things. ;)

DPris
June 2, 2013, 05:52 PM
Right bangin' spot ON!!!!! :)

Denis

mavracer
June 2, 2013, 06:28 PM
If we're gonna be technical even Colt does not currently make 1911s, They make Government models.

35 Whelen
June 2, 2013, 07:09 PM
Well, as usual I didn't clarify. Craig and DPris you're both exactly right with regards to quality where finish is concerned. I've never owned an original Colt, but at a recent CAS match fired a stage with one in 5 1/2" 45 Colt. It in every way felt identical to my Cimarron Model P 5 1/2" .44 Special, but of course was a much nicer handgun finish-wise. I admit that is the extent of my firsthand knowledge of Colt SA's.

In my post, I was talking from a standpoint of functionality. More specifically, if my old beater Uberti will do this...
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Cowboy%20Action/Ubertigroup-1mod_zps49a7c44a.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Cowboy%20Action/Ubertigroup-1mod_zps49a7c44a.jpg.html)
...why would I want to 3X for a handgun that would do pretty much the same thing when all I'm going to do with it is shove it in a holster and carry it on the tractor or while down on the creek cutting firewood?

I personally no longer desire to own a Colt or USFA, but certainly don't begrudge those with an affinity towards those beautifully finished firearms. Several years ago I save my pennies and bought a jaw-dropping gorgeous Ugartechea SxS 20 ga. It had an engraved receiver with a beautiful coin finish, lovely, finely checkered walnut, chopper lump barrels, double triggers and selective ejectors. I promptly took to the quail fields with it following dogs through briars and mesquites as though I were carrying a Savage 311 or some Ted Williams double. It didn't take me long to realize that I could do the same thing with a shotgun that cost 1/4 of my little Spanish beauty. I sold it for a $400 profit and have since stuck with more utility type firearms for field use.

So, to each his (or her) own!

35W

DPris
June 2, 2013, 08:05 PM
35,
You familiar with Ruger's new American boltgun?
Between $350-$400, typically.
The one I had here significantly outshot a several-thousand-dollar FBI sniper rifle & scope package I worked with three or four years ago. The Ruger had a Redfield (as in inexpensive) scope on it. Basic gun, basic glass.

The American was one of the most accurate rifles I've ever shot, the only one that's ever beaten it was a Weatherby police model.

Not knocking that American, it'd certainly get the job done.
Over the long haul, though, some of us prefer a little nicer ride that the Cadillac can provide over the Prius. Both'll get you there, and if that's ALL that matters, then be happy with the Prius. Or the Fiat. :)

Sometimes it ain't just the destination, or the groups you can get.
Lots of people can't tolerate plastic stocks, regardless of how good they shoot.
That American was returned to Ruger, my working Ruger rifles have wood, even though they don't shoot as tightly as that American did.

Of my three .45-70 rifles, the $500 Marlin shoots at 100 yards as well as my $2000 Shiloh Sharps. But....the Sharps is the finest rifle I own, custom made to my specs.
Few people have seen my Shiloh, few ever will. It's not here to brag on, it's here for ME to appreciate.

My Colts are not even fancy in any way, just good basic Colt quality enhanced by PS and rendered in forms more pleasing to my eye & hand than the factory puts out, and no Italian copy can instantly conjure up every bit of history the COLT brand has embodied in its single-actions ever since 1836. That, aside from the quality advantage, is what keeps the Peacemaker going.

The quality could have kept the USFA clones going, too, with a...slightly different management attitude & direction. :)

You know the "Kit Cars"? Stick a Maserati fiberglass body on a Volkswagen chassis, and so on? May LOOK like a Maserati, but underneath it all it ain't a Maserati. :)

Tractor gun?
I found myself one day considering taking the USFA Rodeo out in the wilds on ATV excursions to keep the Colts from getting dinged & worn.
Took a deep breath, thought "Then what's the point of having the Colts if I'm afraid to use 'em?", slapped that nonsense outa my head, and never looked back.
I even have a Bianchi shoulder holster for one of my long-barreled Colts.

Like I said- it's more than just groups, it's more than just a similar profile.
It's a COLT!!!!!
Denis

rcmodel
June 2, 2013, 08:15 PM
The thing is, a well cared for Colt SAA's collector or resale value will always be comparable to, if not more then they sell for new.

A used Uberti will always be a used Uberti, and sell accordingly.

And I own both.
But picking up the real Colt .45 SAA always gives me feelings I can't get from picking up the Uberti SAA clone.

Even though it now sports a real 1st. Gen Colt SAA 32-20 barrel & Cylinder.

Dagnabit! I called it a SAA clone didn't I? :banghead:

So, I am either Lazy, Ignorant, or I just call a SSA Clone a SAA Clone.
I'll let you decide!

rc

DPris
June 2, 2013, 08:43 PM
You may be contentious (and are), but you're far from ignorant. :)
An SAA clone I can live with.
That's a legit descriptor.
Denis

rcmodel
June 2, 2013, 08:59 PM
Contentious???

Why you darn son of a polecat -----

Never mind! :D

rc

DPris
June 2, 2013, 09:08 PM
We HAVE actually agreed on a couple things in the past, could happen again.
You never know. :)
Denis

Maj Dad
June 2, 2013, 09:56 PM
Blücher!!
:neener:

Luckily, my Turnbull USFA SA is not a SAA clone. Or a SAA... :D

mavracer
June 2, 2013, 10:14 PM
Is it OK for Colt to call them SAA after all the Army revolver is chambered in 45 Colt.

Mat, not doormat
June 2, 2013, 10:15 PM
There are Colt SAAs, there are Ruger Single Actions, aka RSAs, and there are Pasta Pistols. Pasta Pistols can usually be identified by the spaghetti sauce which their manufacturers continue to use as stain on their stocks.

Kidding aside, part of this whole issue is the fact that there's never been a lot of good, accurate, commonly used and official nomenclature for these guns, original or otherwise. Thus, to be tolerably accurate and precise, one must say such things as "Uberti replica of 1873 Colt."

"Uberti Single Action," is a term so vague and imprecise as to be nearly useless. After all, Uberti has replicated all of Colt's and Remington's C&B guns, the Colt's Open Top cartridge guns, the SAA, the Remington 1875/1890s, and the various flavors of S&W top break, just to name a few. And guess what? They're all single actions. Which one are you talking about?

I, for one, am perfectly happy to permit a little technical incorrectness if it actually furthers clarity and understanding, and can't say that I mind all that much if it treads on Colt's tender corns.

CraigC
June 2, 2013, 11:01 PM
Y'all are both contentious but neither ignorant and yes, it takes one to know one. Contentious is a label I can live with and I'm sure there are worse ones that are equally accurate.

35Whelen, that beauty is not only skin deep. The internal parts are smooth, well-fitted and less likely to self destruct. Barrels are premium quality. Chamber dimensions are correct, something even Colt can't get right. They are as well made as a non-linebored revolver can be. So no, they don't really do the same thing. I've got a bunch of Pasta Pistols (I like that one!) and none are as smooth as my USFA's and it took a lot of stoning to get them as smooth as they are. It took more to smooth my lone Colt. The USFA's are fantastic shooters and as with anything of high quality, they are less likely to be problematic.

35 Whelen
June 2, 2013, 11:32 PM
You know, when you mentioned: "...something even Colt can't get right.", it reminded me of the columns and articles I've read, mainly in Handloader Magazine where time and again the fact that Colt can't get the cylinder throat diameters right relative to the groove diameters of the barrels, which of course begs the question "Why would I pay more for something that ain't quite right?"

I didn't know USFA slicked the innards of their pistols. I keep a piece of 4" x 6" laminated glass on my gunsmithing bench. It's perfectly flat surface is an ideal place to lay wet-dry sandpaper for use in slicking internal parts. Colt copies are so incredibly simple and easy to work on. I've done three of my own plus a couple for my dad.

35W

DPris
June 3, 2013, 12:07 AM
Mav,
What's that got to do with it?
Denis

DPris
June 3, 2013, 12:24 AM
35,
Nobody's trying to talk you into a Colt.
Get whatever you're happy with.
All I'm saying is the Italian repros don't "do" it for me, the Colts do, and I've told you why they do. :)
Craig prefers the USFAs.
Both involve more satisfaction for us than any Uberti.

I've never measured my Colt chambers & quite likely never will, all three shoot fine.
Denis

mavracer
June 3, 2013, 12:35 PM
Mav,
What's that got to do with it?
Denis
Well just wondering my 1886 1st gen Colt doesn't say single action army on it anywhere, but it is a SAA. my new 3rd gen says single action army on it even though parts won't interchange and it's not in army configuration.
So it would seem to me that it's just as much a clone to a real SAA as anything else.

DPris
June 3, 2013, 12:51 PM
Well, no.
Both are generational variants of the same gun, designed by the same company, manufactured by the same company, and originally built for the Army.
Denis

mavracer
June 3, 2013, 01:24 PM
Both are generational variants of the same gun, designed by the same company, manufactured by the same company, and originally built for the Army.
Not entirely correct.
1st gen Colt designed and built by Colt's patent firearms manufacturing co. for the army.
3rd gen Colt is designed and built by Colt's manufacturing LLC and no army in the world uses a 3rd gen Colt.
A Uberti SAA uses the original design patents like a 1st gen colt.

DPris
June 3, 2013, 01:36 PM
You're splitting hairs, pointless.
I said generational variants of a gun originally built for the Army, made by the same company.
You want to break it down word by word & dissect irrelevant technicalities on company generations, too, you can waste your own time in doing it.
So Colt today isn't Colt in 1873.
Remington today isn't the original Remington.
S&W isn't the original S&W.
Even Ruger isn't the original Ruger.

This has wandered far enough.
Denis

mavracer
June 3, 2013, 01:56 PM
You're splitting hairs, pointless.
Hey pot have you met the kettle.lol
I tell you what you start assuming that when people say UBERTI SAA that they know it isn't a Colt and I'll assume you didn't forget.

savit260
June 3, 2013, 07:15 PM
If it's a '57 Thunderbird, don't call it a Corvette just because both were two-door American sports cars of the same general size.

The 57 Thunderbird was a personal luxury car. I find the use of "sports car" in reference to T Birds more offensive than SAA. :D :D :D :D :D (sorry, couldn't resist) ;)

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