Is a 16" telescopic baton effective?


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Fer
May 31, 2013, 03:57 PM
Hello guys, long time since I wrote a post here. Glad to see there is always action in here.

Getting to the Point, I have owned a 21" telescopic baton for a couple of years, I thought 21" was the sweet lenght to carry, Not the longest and not the shortest, but I constantly leave it in the car or at home beacuse I cant conceal it, I do not like to carry it visible. I was thinking of a 16" model, colapsed at 6" its only 1/2" longer than the Kubotan I carry as a keychain daily with no problem. I remember when I bought the 21" I saw the 16" as just too short. Maybe I am used to the 21"? If I had bought the 16" the first time I might have gotten used to it and not think its too short?

Anyone has any opionions or experience with the 16"?

best regards,

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Archaic Weapon
May 31, 2013, 04:13 PM
MY opinion? It all depends upon how you use it and what you are up against. 16" beats a lot of stuff in the that range or smaller category you could run up against. Judiciously used, a 16" baton is nothing I would stand still and take, if you follow my meaning. If you have range to deploy it, I cannot see it being a bad addition to your kit.

Just my 2 cents.

Sam Cade
May 31, 2013, 04:17 PM
Effective?

Sure.

..and now some science:



Law Enforcement Executive Forum • 2009 • 9(1) 119
A Pilot Study of Kinetic EnergyTransfer Based Upon Police Baton Designs

http://www.academia.edu/2108414/Kinetic_Energy_Transfer_Based_Upon_Police_Baton_Designs


In almost every case, it was clear that the force generated was directly related to the length and weight of the baton, regardless of the size of the user.

Hmmmm...

Additionally, straight batons,regardless of their composition and weight, outperformed all of the expandable batons.

Certaindeaf
May 31, 2013, 04:37 PM
It really depends. I got hit so hard once I shoulda died twelve times over.. easy. I have the skeletal proof of it. And that was just upon that one particular occasion.
Anything is better than nothing especially if you know how to use it in other words.

Rule3
May 31, 2013, 04:45 PM
I am impressed by the article as it was written by some Professors from FGCU which is in my neck of the woods. A new University started around 1991 or so.

If you follow basketball they made it in to the playoffs here in Dunk City!.

But as to batons what would TJ Hooker think of these new ones.?:D

I actually want to get one of the longer ones for walking the dog, not for people by for dogs that idiot people let run loose. I am not trying to break up a dog fight with my hands.

Certaindeaf
May 31, 2013, 04:47 PM
Dogs are tougher than people.. pretty much. I don't think that wand will do anything, unless you stab it with it.

JShirley
May 31, 2013, 05:05 PM
A 16" baton is more effective than your bare hand.

What's the collapsed difference in length between 16" and 21"? Is it going to be enough to justify the loss in effectiveness?

mrnic3guy1989
May 31, 2013, 05:09 PM
I saw a man beat with one and it was not very effective your hands make better weapons.

Fer
May 31, 2013, 05:12 PM
Colapsed the 21" is 8" long, the 16" is 6" long.

I am concerned be the energy transmited on impact, I think the 16" is too short, kinda like hitting a forearm with a short light stick, I hope I am wrong.

Certaindeaf
May 31, 2013, 05:28 PM
Oh, I finally see that you're in Honduras.. for whatever that's worth. I'd more go for a small sledge or lump hammer would it be possible, over one of those collapsible batons.

Archaic Weapon
May 31, 2013, 06:13 PM
Treat is like a .22 instead of a .30-06? Aim for the joints, not the soft parts?

Texan Scott
May 31, 2013, 07:10 PM
More effective than an empty hand; if you can have it, why not? A 16" baton in your hand will be more effective than the 21" you won't have because it was left in your truck.

glistam
June 2, 2013, 07:44 PM
Baton you have with you is always better than the one you left at home because it was too big.

CA Raider
June 2, 2013, 08:36 PM
I agree 100% that the weapon you can carry with you is MUCH better than the one left at home. A 16-inch baton would be very handy against an attacker with a folding knife. work on your techniques - I don't see a strong argument against it. the main thing is to know your skills (and drills) and keep them fresh in your training.

good luck!
CA R

JShirley
June 2, 2013, 08:40 PM
ASP doctrine focuses on the attacker's limbs. This is unlikely to cause broken bones, but generally effective.

John

Sam Cade
June 2, 2013, 08:57 PM
ASP doctrine focuses on the attacker's limbs.

Talking about that ABC stuff?

That is so targeted at corrections that very little of is applicable to using the baton as a primary defensive weapon.

lemaymiami
June 3, 2013, 09:08 AM
Expandable batons have their uses and can be effective --- if you're properly trained in their use. For anyone considering them -get trained or leave them at home. For police use the training (particularly the part about where NOT to hit your opponent unless deadly force is clearly justified....) is pretty important. Don't know if ASP still trains in the use of their products but my Department (all those years ago) put everyone through their course with good results....

JShirley
June 3, 2013, 09:16 AM
Sam,

I don't know that an expandle baton should ever be a primary defensive weapon.

However...

Is it safer to strike an attacker's limbs?
Generally, for a number of reasons, both legally and physically.

Should strikes to the head be avoided?
Yes, unless you're facing lethal force.

That's ASP doctrine, or at least was when I was certified years ago. Now, the push? That seems like a bad idea for an ordinary citizen defending himself, but I'd call maybe 85% of ASP training very useful for the defense-minded citizen. I also believe it's more correct to say it's "targeted at law enforcement", not corrections.

(It's possible you took some course that was targeted at corrections, just as my last baton training was for military armed guards- but that wasn't ASP training.)

John

Sam Cade
June 3, 2013, 10:29 AM
That seems like a bad idea for an ordinary citizen defending himself, but I'd call maybe 85% of ASP training very useful for the defense-minded citizen.


It is worth a look regardless.
Link to the current ASP ABC manual:

http://asptraining.wikispaces.com/file/view/ABC%20Baton%20Manual%202010.pdf/322926004/ABC%20Baton%20Manual%202010.pdf



I also believe it's more correct to say it's "targeted at law enforcement", not corrections.


Perfectly correct. I intended to say LEO and corrections.

JShirley
June 3, 2013, 01:30 PM
Sam,

After looking at it again (thanks for the link), I'd say, as long as an ordinary citizen knows to disregard the stuff that's LEO-specific, it's an excellent basic course. Of especial use is the stuff about maintaining correct distancing from a potential threat (about two arms' lengths, at a minimum), and about using more force than your attacker.

In the case of the ordinary citizen, that would mean skipping the hand to hand techniques, and going straight to baton or OC spray in the case of an attack, or hopefully to a firearm if the attacker has a weapon, and opportunity and lethal intent. If you're already holding an expandable baton, and suddenly face a (potentially) lethal threat, strikes to the temple and other potentially lethal strikes are reasonable.

John

Certaindeaf
June 3, 2013, 02:29 PM
If I had backup, radio communications, mace, taser, weaponless defense training, machine pistol, pistol, bullet-resistant vest, a dog, (I'm probably forgetting something) I'd consider carrying a collapsible baton.

iflyem1
June 3, 2013, 02:57 PM
I used my ASP on a combative under the influence of alcohol susbject. Hit him in the common peroneal a half dozen times. He didnt even flinch so I dont know how useful ASP's are on those who are inebriated.

JShirley
June 3, 2013, 02:58 PM
You know, if the option of NOT carrying a baton was either engaging an attacker with your bare hands or going straight to a firearm, you'd be stupid not to...backup, and the kitchen sink (machine pistol?! You DO know that almost no US PDs use those anymore, right?) be damned.

John

Certaindeaf
June 3, 2013, 03:19 PM
.(machine pistol?! You DO know that almost no US PDs use those anymore, right?) be damned.
Well you got me there. Figure of speech. Perhaps I shoulda said carbine or shotgun. same same be damned

DNS
June 3, 2013, 05:09 PM
I'd much rather use a "16 baton than my hands anyday. Once you get old enough you realize sometimes the damage done doesn't heal up.

I say use the "16 and beat his hole like only a mental patient could but obviously the "21 has an advantage. Pepper spray first though because fighting fair tactically sucks.

JShirley
June 3, 2013, 05:21 PM
As a defender, generally, the further away from you the threat can be stopped, the better.

John

Sentryau2
June 3, 2013, 07:39 PM
Yes they are effective. A strike to the wrist with a baton will make you lose 95% of your grip even a FOAM covered baton. The key is striking areas like the forearm and wrist (inside), side of the knee and thigh. along with the Inside of the thigh. As others have said don't strike to the head unless lethal force would be appropriate. If its a grey area you can strike to the side of the neck (warning it CAN be lethal if enough force is used) A strike to the neck is a lot more of a suck fest then a strike to the head (bare handed) I know from various sparring sessions. It causes cramping and intense pain, its a lot like a kick to the testicles. Try to be an aggressor when u cant even straighten your head as your ear feels like its glued to your shoulder

Fer
June 8, 2013, 08:49 AM
Thank you all for the replies.

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