170 Grain 30-30 bullet in a .308


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vincyr
June 5, 2013, 10:06 AM
Can anyone point me to where I might find some data on loading a 170 grain bullet designed for a 30-30 in a .308 case?(at 30-30 velocities, obviously) I am trying to get into reloading(I know, lousy timing on my part), and so far the only .30 cal bullets I have found are some 170 Grain Speer DeepCurls, which I found out after I bought them were meant for a 30-30. I asked Speer if they could be loaded in a .308, and was told that that particular bullet had not been tested in that cartridge, and that if they ever did test it, they would publish the data. I later found some references to loading .308 with 30-30 bullets at 30-30 velocities. This made sense when I thought about it. And it seems like a good idea too. I almost got a 30-30 instead of my .308, since the 30-30 would fit 90% of the hunting scenarios I could envision(and what can I say, its a Classic), but I opted for the cartridge with a bit more reach, just in case I might need it. This sounds like a "have cake and eat it too" set up. I could have the 30-30 powered rounds for general hunting, with a couple "reach out and touch something" rounds on hand in case the need arises. Is there any good source of load data if I try to undertake this project? The velocity range that Speer lists for this bullet in a 30-30 is around 1650fps at the low end and just shy of 2200fps at the high end.

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MtnCreek
June 5, 2013, 10:37 AM
From Hodgdon Youth Loads:

H4895 powder was chosen because it is the slowest burning propellant that ignites uniformly in reduced charges. For years
H4895 has been the top choice of cast bullet shooters. For this type of shooting, loads are reduced even more than the
hunting loads listed here. To create this type of target and plinking loads, we recommend our 60% rule with H4895: Refer
to our latest reloading manual or the Reloading Data Center found on this website; take the maximum H4895 charge listed
for any given cartridge and multiply it by 60%. The shooter can create a 1500 to 2100 f/s load, depending on the bullet
weight shown. This works ONLY where H4895 is listed. DO NOT use H4895 in a cartridge where it has not been shown.

170gr bullet isn't listed on their youth loads, but the above still applies. Check their on-line loading data for H4895, .308win loads in the ~180gr bullet weight. Reduce as above.

Rule3
June 5, 2013, 11:10 AM
:confused:
I would be curious to find out why a 170gr .308 could not, or should not, be used in a 308 Win? Other than lack of loading data?
The have 168 and 175 gr bullets, what is different about a 170?

MtnCreek
June 5, 2013, 11:14 AM
The 170 FP is designed for lower velocity than the 168 or 175 SMK's. It may still work well at 308 velocity, I don't know, but loading it down to 30-30 levels does sound fun. :)

Haxby
June 5, 2013, 11:51 AM
If you have, or can find, IMR 3031 or IMR 4895, Speer has data for the 180 grain deep curl. The start loads should be just right.

mdi
June 5, 2013, 11:52 AM
I would think that a bullet designed to function (mushroom, expand) at 1800-2000 fps would probably expand too rapidly and not penetrate enough at 2500-2800 fps.

FWIW, I've been loading the reverse; premium 30. cal. bullets in my 30-30 single shot. Not for hunting as much as just wanted to try pointy bullets, but I could prolly find a spritzer that would work at 30-30 velocities...

HexHead
June 5, 2013, 11:55 AM
FWIW, I've been loading the reverse; premium 30. cal. bullets in my 30-30 single shot. Not for hunting as much as just wanted to try pointy bullets, but I could prolly find a spritzer that would work at 30-30 velocities...

Have your tried the Hornady LeveRevolution bullets?

Rule3
June 5, 2013, 12:45 PM
The 308 Win has load data down to 110 gr bullets up to 208. (well Hodgdon does)

So why is the 170 a red headed step child? Is it made differently??:confused:

I have shot 110 gr bullets in my 30-06 just fine.

MtnCreek
June 5, 2013, 01:07 PM
It's not the weight, it's the construction. The flat point bullets that are made for 30-30's are made to perform at 30-30 velocity (optimal expansion at ~2,000fps). Up the velocity to 2,750 and the bullet may not stay together on impact. Same goes for your 110 varmint bullet in 30-06, but that fragmentation is sometimes desired on a varmint. I load a 125gr Nosler BT in .308 and 300wm. In the .308, it's a suitable (but a little light) load for our SE'ern whitetail. In the 300wm, the bullet blows up on impact.

tygranch
June 5, 2013, 01:09 PM
Would .307 Winchester data be applicable? It's my understanding it was developed for the mod 94 and is basicly a rimmed version of the .308. They use the same dies anyway.

ArchAngelCD
June 5, 2013, 02:16 PM
The 308 Win has load data down to 110 gr bullets up to 208. (well Hodgdon does)

So why is the 170 a red headed step child? Is it made differently??:confused:

I have shot 110 gr bullets in my 30-06 just fine.
Yes, they are made differently...
Like said above bullets made for the 30-30 will reliably expand at lower velocities than bullets meant for the 308 because the 30-30 generates less velocity than the 308. I'm sure you heard using a pointy bullet meant for the 308 or 30-06 in a 30-30 isn't a bad idea because it's pointy but because they might not expand at the lower velocities associated with the 30-30. In this case the opposite is the case.

To the OP, I suggest you try the "reduced load data for H4895" with that bullet and see how the bullet reacts. (read holds together) If you can increase the velocities up near "normal" 308 velocities then you need to worry about what happens when the bullet hits game at those elevated velocities. You might want to sacrifice an inexpensive cut of beef to test that. I have a feeling that bullet will not perform well under those conditions but it's worth a try. (sorry)

Rule3
June 5, 2013, 03:42 PM
Yes, I can understand that it is not the "ideal bullet" configuration (FN) for the velocity of a 308. It also may not be the "Ideal" for damage to the game animal. I still think it can be shot through a 308 at reduced velocity. Keep it below 2,000 fps or so and why would it fall apart?

They also state to use only their load data.

http://www.speer-bullets.com/products/reloading_manual/default.aspx

Heck you can load it with Trail Boss.;) Will it expand? I have no idea.

http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf

BKS
June 5, 2013, 05:47 PM
Federal Fusion Lite is loaded in 308 with the 170gr bullet. It is a reduced recoil load and is smoke on whitetails out to around 100 yards. My lil guy used them last year in my Ruger GSR on two deer, 1 shot - 1 Deer x 2

MichaelK
June 5, 2013, 06:22 PM
In my Speer manual the .308 starting load for IMR4064 is 41.0 grains with their 165grain bullets, giving 2391 fps, and 39.5 grains of IMR4064 with their 180 grain bullet, giving 2260 fps.

It's reasonable to split the difference and say the starting load for a 170 grain bullet would be 40.0 grains, which might give about 2300 fps.

Use the same rationale for working up a load with a different powder.

Jim Watson
June 5, 2013, 06:32 PM
There is no reason not to load a .30-30 bullet to .30-30 velocity in a .308 cartridge, if .30-30 ballistics are enough for you. Like for deer at moderate ranges.
In fact Norma used to make a factory load they called the ".30-30-06," a .30-06 round at .30-30 ballistics for use on medium game in Europe. I have loaded some and they are a pleasure to shoot.
Unfortunately, I do not have a "recipe" for such in .308. Load development with a chronograph would produce one in pretty short order, though.
Or you could get pretty close with MichaelK's logic.

mothernatureson
June 5, 2013, 06:47 PM
I have loaded 150 gr flatnose 30-30 bullet in 30-06 @2600 fps, works real
well on whitetail. I wouldn't load them any faster though. good, accurate load(IMR3031)

mothernatureson

David4516
June 5, 2013, 06:54 PM
This is a great question. I have an old mauser that was converted to .308 Win at some point in it's life prior to arriving in my hands. The problem is that it's an older Spanish Mauser, believe it is a 1895 style action and not the stronger Mauser 1898 style action. The bolt is "cock on closing" vs "cock on opening", I think this is how you know the difference? I am not a mauser expert.

Anyway, long story short, I am not sure I should be shooting full power .308 loads with this rifle. 30-30 level loads using flat point or round nose bullets might be safer. I am very interested in this thread for that reason. Also, in my case using the .30-30 style bullets makes alot of sense, as I already have 4 .30-30 rifles (3 winchester 94's and a savage 99). It would make sense to just buy one type of bullet to use in all the rifles (including the .308 mauser) to keep the supply chain simple.

Would .307 Winchester data be applicable? It's my understanding it was developed for the mod 94 and is basicly a rimmed version of the .308.

I have wondered about this too. Assume any .307 load data for a lever-gun would be safe to use with .308 in a bolt gun?

ASCTLC
June 5, 2013, 07:07 PM
What twist does a 30-30 typically have, same as a typical 30-06?

Andy

Rule3
June 5, 2013, 08:07 PM
The 170 30-30 Flatnose Deep Curl (just a new name for Gold Dot) is a FN for use in a lot of 30-30's with a tubular magazine. Without actually loading and shooting it myself I do not see how it will be any different out of a 308, or 30-06 if kept at a lower velocity??

I have lots of 110 soft point bullets for a 30 carbine, I can shoot them in my 30-30 but can not load them up in the magazine. It's a 2 shot lever action then, one in the chamber and one in the tube.

ArchAngelCD
June 5, 2013, 09:44 PM
There is data on the Speer bullet WEB site specifically for their "new" DeepCurl bullets. I suggest making copies of all the data available while it lasts because as soon as they release their next manual it will be removed from the site. (there are dozens of files available)
http://www.speer-bullets.com/products/reloading_manual/default.aspx

vincyr
June 6, 2013, 07:29 AM
OK, so I found a load for a cast bullet that seems to fit(from Lyman:170 grain bullet, 1850fps with min load, 2270fps with max) Would that data be safe to use with a jacketed bullet?

garybotkin
June 6, 2013, 07:50 AM
Use the data for a .307 Winchester.

SlamFire1
June 6, 2013, 10:13 AM
This is a great question. I have an old mauser that was converted to .308 Win at some point in it's life prior to arriving in my hands. The problem is that it's an older Spanish Mauser, believe it is a 1895 style action and not the stronger Mauser 1898 style action. The bolt is "cock on closing" vs "cock on opening", I think this is how you know the difference? I am not a mauser expert.

Anyway, long story short, I am not sure I should be shooting full power .308 loads with this rifle. 30-30 level loads using flat point or round nose bullets might be safer. I am very interested in this thread for that reason. Also, in my case using the .30-30 style bullets makes alot of sense, as I already have 4 .30-30 rifles (3 winchester 94's and a savage 99). It would make sense to just buy one type of bullet to use in all the rifles (including the .308 mauser) to keep the supply chain simple.

No, you should not be shooting full power 308 loads in a M1892, M1895 Mauser. Full power 308 loads are either at, or exceed, the proof loads for those actions.

As a data point, period 7mm Mauser ammunition, tested after the Spanish American War, factory 173 FMJ clocked at 2200 fps out of a 29” barrel. If you look at 7MM data, this was not high pressure ammunition, you should keep your reloads 40 Kpsia or less.

I shot thousands of 168’s at 200 yards standing and sitting rapid fire with a load of 168 SMK 39.0 grains IMR 4895, LC cases, CCI #34/WLR primers. This load is low pressure and superbly accurate, goes just at 2500 fps in a 24" Krieger barrel, and I would not shoot anything of higher pressures in your rifle. You might try 38.0 grains with a 170's and see how it does.

vincyr
June 6, 2013, 10:13 AM
Just heard back from Speer in regards to the Max velocity for the 170 grain DeepCurl

it's made for the velocity spectrum of the slower 30 caliber guns, about 2500 MV and below.

Rule3
June 6, 2013, 11:34 AM
OK, so I found a load for a cast bullet that seems to fit(from Lyman:170 grain bullet, 1850fps with min load, 2270fps with max) Would that data be safe to use with a jacketed bullet?

No, it is not recommended to substitute LEAD data for a FMJ bullet. The velocity will be totally different. Apples and Watermelons or something.

Sometimes you can do the reverse and use FMJ data for lead as it requires less pressure to get the lead bullet moving.


What powders do you have available??

mdi
June 6, 2013, 11:59 AM
I wouldn't think there would be any problems. I only mentioned velocity/performance in passing. Go ahead and load some 170s up in your 308, check/load for accuracy, keep velocities on the low side and you'll be find...

Found this on Speer's website:

Important Reloading Data
DeepCurl's unique construction process joins the jacket to the core at the molecular level for excellent performance and consistency. For this reason, conventional reloading data developed for standard jacketed bullets should not be used to load DeepCurl® rifle bullets. Only DeepCurl specific reloading data should be used. It can be found here at reloading data pages in the reloading data pages or by contacting Speer Technical Services at 866-286-7436. DeepCurl handgun bullets can use data from the Speer Reloading Manual #14.
http://www.speer-bullets.com/pdf/30-30Win_170_2042_DC_DataFile.pdf

vincyr
June 6, 2013, 03:01 PM
Been talking to folks at Speer some more(With more informative results than the first time. I think I got someone higher up the food chain this time around, and maybe my questions were a bit better formulated, too). I asked if they could perhaps recommend a safe, 30-30 equivalent load for this bullet in .308win. This was their reply

you could probably just used the 30-30 Win data on this site(Speer's site), the pressure for the for it is 20,000 psi less than for the 308 Win

So, apparently it is that simple. I was honestly expecting it to be a little more complicated than that.
I'll try to work up a load using the 30-30 data like they said(I will be saving the emails though, just in case)

jmr40
June 6, 2013, 03:54 PM
I'd select some load data for a 175 or 180 gr load, start at the lowest suggested load and go from there. Based on what I'm seeing about 2400 fps is about as slow as you can go, but I would still think you'll be OK at that speed. My loading manuals show several 30-30 loads shooting 170's @ 2300 fps. That bullet will lose speed fast and may not impact as fast as you think too.

The problem with using a bullet designed for the 30-30 that the factory has not tested in a 308 is surface area touching the rifling. A pointed 175 gr bullet has far less bullet touching the barrel than a 170 gr RN bullet. This will increase pressure with the RN bullet. As long as you stay on the slow side I'd think you shoud be fine. You'll probably end up with an overpressure load at a lower powder charge than if you were using a pointed bullet.

I did the same thing, buying 150 gr RN Remington Corelokt bullets by mistake. I loaded them with a light load of 3031 and used them in my 308. I'm getting about 2600 fps, about 200 fps faster than in a 30-30, accuracy wasn't great, but at least as good as 30-30 ammo. Around 1.5" or so at 100 yards. Recoil is very light. Haven't shot anything yet, but would bet they are deadly on whitetails at reasonable ranges.

Rule3
June 6, 2013, 04:02 PM
Did they tell you that or put it in writing? Not that I would dispute Speer.

You can "probably" use...........:confused:

That sounds like a definite maybe to me.

As I mentioned before, try some Trail Boss, it is made for this kind of application and does not require any load data. Just follow the instructions I linked on the PDF.Here it is again:

http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf

It can be used for any and all calibers and you will not blow anything up;)

If you have access to a chronograph all the better.

vincyr
June 6, 2013, 04:14 PM
I looked up the Federal reduced recoil loads that were mentioned earlier and found this
http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2006/update308vs762nato/
170 grain bullet at roughly 2000 fps. The bullet even looks pretty close to the Speers I have

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2006/update308vs762nato/graphics/l/3.jpg
bullet from Federal load

http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/880x660/primary/161/161076.jpg
Speer 170 grain DeepCurl

HexHead
June 7, 2013, 08:23 AM
As I mentioned before, try some Trail Boss, it is made for this kind of application and does not require any load data. Just follow the instructions I linked on the PDF.Here it is again:

http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf

It can be used for any and all calibers and you will not blow anything up;)

If you have access to a chronograph all the better.

This is what I've been looking for. I wanted to make some soft loads for my Win94 to make it a HD rifle. 170gr FN running about 1000fps sounds perfect.

Rule3
June 8, 2013, 09:58 AM
Just food for thought, the recent American Rifleman (everybody gets that right?) or belongs to the NRA?:)

There is a article/load data (page 46) for 308 Win using a 168 grain Hornady A Max bullet using 8.0 grains of Hodgdon Clays for a velocity of 908 fps.

So it can be done.

41 Mag
June 9, 2013, 05:48 AM
I have one of the short Ruger Compact's in .308. It is a great rifle for slipping through the thick brush in the river bottoms where we hunt feral hogs. I got on a kick to load up some thumper loads which would smack a hog with a heavier bullet than the 150's I was using but would have a bit lower recoil than full powered 308 loads.

I went with H-4895 and found that I got a great load with the Remington 170 CL. It shoots point of aim with my 150's at 50yds, has little recoil to speak of, and knocks a 200# hog on it's ear. The loads used the listed data for the 168gr bullet and used the formula in the Reduced load section and worked up until I got what I was looking for. Since most of the shots in the thick stuff are around 50-75yds I didn't need anything fast only accurate. Once I hit a load that shot within 1.5" or less, I was happy. Also due to my barrel only being 16.5" long my velocity is running about 250'ish FPS lower than what you might get. I'm only shooting just a touch over 2000fps with my loads, and as mentioned this is great for up close hunting. The heavier bullet has plenty of energy to drive right on through the shoulder of a good sized hog, and I would have no issues putting it through the shoulder of a good buck if the issue arose.

I have found that H-4895 does a great job with not only the reduced loads, but also has produced great accuracy from several rifles using standard loads as well. It was playing around with the reduced loads that got me working with the other rifles simply to see how they would work with this powder. It might not be the best all around powder for them all, but with the groups being what they have been I do not feel handicapped by not reaching the top end velocity, when I can easily get stellar accuracy with most of the loads at standard hunting ranges. I purchased an 8# jug due to this and have had a good deal of fun with working up the different loads.

Eb1
June 9, 2013, 05:58 AM
I have loaded Speer 170 grain FN bullets in .30-06 using IMR 4064. My BIL used them on deer, and they worked awesome. If I recall we had them going around 2400 fps.

Disclosure here:
This was all my experiment for myself and my BIL. I am not suggesting that you try this yourself. Use book data for the bullet, powder and caliber you are loading for.

vincyr
June 10, 2013, 10:10 AM
Well, I loaded up the first few of my .308 that think they are 30-30 rounds. Tested them out yesterday. No issues. Reasonably accurate( could cover the group with the palm of my hand. Not great, but not a bad start) Took my gun from mild recoiling to barely noticeable. Spoke with a couple very experienced reloaders that I didn't know that I knew, and at their suggestion, I am going to work up a few for a ladder test(from the high 30-30 load to the low .308) and hopefully find what my gun likes best.

On a side note, my dad went up back with me(wasn't gonna be testing the load out all by my lonesome), and he brought his new 1911 to try out(first time he has had a chance to shoot it). He let me empty a mag at the target, and I have to say, I think I am in love. At 30 yards, it was hitting about a foot higher than my point of aim, but put all 8 within 2 inches of each other. I don't think any gun has ever felt so natural to shoot. I gotta get me one.

Eb1
June 10, 2013, 11:46 AM
Most 1911's I have shot have been guns that need a 6 o'clock hold. That might be why you were shooting so high. They like 6 o'clock holds especially if they are fixed sights. From my experience anyways.
Food luck with you ladder test. You will find a good accurate load. I betting around 2450 to 2500 fps.

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