97 Winchester with 1917 bayonet.
'03 Springfield made in 1906 w/1906 mfg. 1905 bayonet.
June 5, 2013, 10:54 PM
Sometimes I get the feeling that these bayonets were conceived in much the same way that the GAU-8 Avenger was; that much how the A-10 Warthog was built around the gun, these rifles were made for the bayonet. So in short, those aren't rifles with bayonets on them, those are bayonets with a rifle attachment. ;) Might as well be fighting with pikes...
Robert's and highpower's guns strike a wonderful chord... :)
June 5, 2013, 11:05 PM
The Mosin Nagant was designed to be used with the bayonet on full time. Literally did not come issued with a sheath.
Against a man armed with one of those, would you like to fight him with an AR and no bullets? Was one of the problems with riflemen in the Revolutionary War. No bayonets, twice the reload time, the Brits would steamroll them with them long spikes.
June 5, 2013, 11:59 PM
I have a M1 Korean (larger release button) bayonet around here somewhere. Friend of mine found it new and sold a pair to me for $20. Now I just need an M1 to go with it.
“ I have been plodding through five volume “Reports of (American) military observers in Manchuria” during the 1904-05 Russo-Japanese war. It is a very lengthy read I downloaded for free to my Kindle from: https://archive.org/details/reportsmilitary00stafgoog and http://digital.library.yale.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/rebooks/id/68663/rec/19
The observers delve extensively into the use of the bayonet by both antagonists. The bayonet was not a show accessory and saw much use, especially so during night attacks when combat was very up close and personal. The Russian’s always had the bayonet attached to their rifles and there were no scabbards to be seen.
June 6, 2013, 02:45 AM
Thanks for the links. If you think about it, not much else you can really see to use in the dark, pre-night vision.
June 6, 2013, 05:48 AM
What ?!? You mean there are rifles without bayonets ? :D
My most special one is this Finnish bayonet for the M39, about 10.000 made and today it’s about as valuable as the matching rifle.
June 6, 2013, 08:51 AM
Zen, tell me about the falling block rifle.
June 6, 2013, 09:45 AM
I tried to pull an M-39bayonet out of Finland and no could do less than 400 euros :eek::eek:
June 6, 2013, 10:38 AM
Some of those bayonets more closely fit the description of "sword".
Wait, the M1 Garand is slightly shorter than the Yugoslavian M59/66? Wow.
The M1 Garand is about the only WWII rifle I have zero experience with. I never really planned on purchasing one as I'm no fan of loooong rifles (despite having quite a few of them).
Now I think I want one. If I can find one in nice shape for $1200, I think that will be my next C&R addition.
Cough cough.... odcmp.com cough cough.
June 8, 2013, 12:35 AM
Cough cough.... odcmp.com cough cough.
+1,000,000 There's really no excuse to not buy one from the CMP...you can get one in great shape and they'll be a heck of a lot cheaper than elsewhere. They also have bayonets available.
June 8, 2013, 01:53 AM
I'm sad that I have to hold onto all my available money for a while.
I've wanted an M1 for a long time now.
Now I want one with a bayonet that would be at home with a tower shield as much as with a rifle.
June 8, 2013, 02:35 AM
I have been wanting to get my hands on an m1 carbine for years. I just happen to live in one of those areas that doesn't have any clubs or shooting events to help out with any of that. The CMP got me thinking about it.
To the point that the official Louisiana Shooting Society tells my 1/4 of the state to go find someplace in Mississippi to go shoot at.
June 8, 2013, 09:30 AM
The proper command is:
"Prepare to Fix Bayonets (Wait several beats) FIX! (wait one beat) BAYONETS!"
Do a search of the rifle board for "affix" and you will find a March 1, 2013 there called "affix bayonets" THR won't let me repost what I have posted there.
During the training of Combat arms officers if everything is going well it was common in my experience for the instructors to start piling on one dang thing after another until eventually the correct answer for the cadet or butter bar is "Prepare to fix bayonets.........."
When I was in high school a couple of my instructors had direct personal experience with the use of the bayonet in WWII and Korea. As a result, they thought bayonet drill was important.
In all my "real Army" training it was not so heavily stressed though in both Basic training and Advanced individual (Infantry) training they certainly got mentioned and some little coverage. The thought seemed to be that with a select fire rifle with 20 to 30 round magazines the bayonet would not be needed and that folks would instinctively know how to use one.
Oddly when "fencing" with folks that had had the "instinctive" based training either with pugil sticks or sheathed blades or bare muzzle, I generally won
using the old by the numbers "junk".
That junk was similar to katas practiced by martial artist, repeated until when it is needed there is muscle memory at play. Action beats reaction almost every time. Time however was the issue it was decided there was not time available in training to "waste" on a skill not likely to be needed as say "customs and curtesies of the Army" or whatever.
I thought it interesting that during the late '60's and early 70's while the US Army was de emphasizing bayonet training that the Red Chinese and North Koreans were emphasizing it in response to their experiences with bayonet fighting against US forces in Korea.
"What's the Spirit of the bayonet?"
June 8, 2013, 11:18 AM
Like This ?...............
June 8, 2013, 11:25 AM
kBob, did you join after they did away with the bayonet assault course? That was one of the few truly enjoyable days at Fort Benning for me (2005). I still can't believe they did away with it.
June 8, 2013, 01:48 PM
Nope. They brought it back after I got out the second time....finally. In the late 1960s with the push to get folks through and 'priorities' being set on other things bayonet fighting was deemphasized to the point that when the 1971 (IIRC) Combatives manual came out there was this new Quick and the dead instinctive bayonet fighting featured instead of the older by the numbers kata style. Even in Tigerland at Ft. Polk the bayonet assault course was growing weds in the early 1970's.
My Infantry unit was getting people by 1975 that did not even no how to mount a bayonet on an M-16A1. No Joke. I had to teach them. This was at the height of the then new VOLAR (Modern Volunteer Army) where the Army was changing gears from a draft based out fit to all volunteer. We got a nice desk and padded chair for each 2 to 4 men in our rooms, were not allowed to make bunk beds in garrison, we were allowed out the gate in civies with no bed check or even Sunday evening formation and got adventure training. How being allowed to wear a civilian sweater during mountain training differed from mountain training in uniform and rated the term Adventure Training I am still not certain of. The desks took up valuable floor space and not bunking the beds did as well to the point there was barely room to walk between the beds.
Oddly at combat alert sites we lived in bunked beds and never saw a desk and got along just fine.
June 8, 2013, 10:42 PM
Wish I had a better pic of just the bayonet handy, but this is my 1941 K31 with matching serial # bayonet. The bayonets are just as finely crafted as their rifles.
For a while, i did not have enough bayonets for all the scabbards; now, I've more bayonets than arms to mount them upon <curse this false recovery>
I still have this pair, if in storage--it's my reminder of just how bad, bad can get. It's a Paris-Dunn Nr. 1 Trainer (metal parts are limited to bands, trigger & guard, & sights; the rest is wood) and a USN Mk I with plastic blade & guard with Mk II scabbard.
And, a carbine rig; the bayonet is on a KW-era belt in this photo. Carbine went to a good home so i could make a mortgage payment. On the left, on the pistol belt below, is a USN Mk 1 Knife, which is Camilus, IIRC
And, one of my faves, my M-61 M-14 rigged LBE--that belt has the very-rare roll-up M-14 cleaning kit. Sadly, the M1A helped make a mortgage payment; but i have the web gear and mags.
I've got an M5 KW-era Garand bayonet, and a range of M8A1 scabbards on the appropriate LBE. I've a pair of M7 AR bayonets, along with an M9 with the kitchen-sink scabbard. I had a another reminder of expediency, an M1905 cut down to 10" M-1 bayonet, but, it found a better home than mine.
In '94, I was at the range, and was approached by a newsie on the soon-to-be enacted Federal AWB. He started from the usual sorts of preconceived biases all-too-common to the Fourth Estate. He was cutting into my range time and it was getting dark, so, I asked him a question--was he sure he knew what an "assault weapon" looked like. I showed him the 1903A3; he shrugged a bit. When I clicked that 16" of Union Fork & Hoe steel on the end, he goggled a bit (Lil' Orphan Annie eyes). I did not offer to demonstrate the manual of Arms with Bayonet--not under the overhead; and he suddenly had to get back to the newsroom. Such is life.
June 9, 2013, 08:51 AM
I'm diggin on that Winchester. Is that original or restored? Awesome either way.
June 9, 2013, 11:04 AM
IIRC The bayonet is the spirit of the offense.
June 9, 2013, 11:59 AM
BSA No7, for the Sten MkV---though also usable on the No4 rifle.
I always thought that a bayonet on a rifle was sort of an admition of defeat--if you have a rifle and the enemy gets close enough to use a pointed stick, you've kind of already failed. But I've always thought the bayonet on the shotgun made alot more since. The ol Winny with the bayonet is a beast! I have a Mossberg 590 with a bayonet lug and the next fixed blade knife I get is going to be the Marine Corp bayonet for it. Nothing screams 'prepare to repel borders' like a 12 gauge with a bayonet...
The only bayonet I have right now is the one that came on my Yugo SKS:
I always thought that a bayonet on a rifle was sort of an admition of defeat--if you have a rifle and the enemy gets close enough to use a pointed stick, you've kind of already failed.
I view it the other way around. You only fail when you stop fighting, by death or surrender. A bayonet embodies the idea that only the former is an option. Of course, it never hurts to bring more ammo.
June 10, 2013, 03:46 PM
I understand and agree with the use of bayonet training to instill that fighting spirit in our fighting men, but I just don't feel like it is all that practical now days. The A4 isn't bad by modern standards as a bayonet fighting rifle, but it still isn't a Mosin. The last recorded use of bayonets in war was in 2005 by a British unit, presumably fixing bayonets to a ~30 inch bullpup. It was effective, probably more for its "***, are they serious" effect it had on the enemy. I find the image almost humorous and think modern warfighters would be better served with better knife/close quarter combatives training than bayonet training.
June 10, 2013, 04:35 PM
I can only add that after sweating my butt of at Fort Benning for 17 weeks, the Bayonet Assault Course was one of the few truly fun days.
June 10, 2013, 09:51 PM
I was in military early 70s, like nowadays we had the plastic M16....attaching a bayonet to it and you really had to use it with force, you were probably gonna be left with a shattered buttstock, now you would have almost a pistol with a bayonet...and hopefully you could run fast enough or were ready to cash it in. I was fortunate enough to also carry a .45 as a sidearm cause of my MOS.
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