This is my beloved son, with whom I am well pleased...


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TarDevil
June 6, 2013, 12:04 PM
Please get this, if you don't get another thing... IT AIN'T A CALIBER WAR! It's all about circumstances.

Several years ago my son bought a XDc in .45. In the three or so years he owned it he shot about 200 rounds. He got rid of it during some tough times, then won a Glock 26 in a raffle. Immediately he started talking about selling it for another XDc in .45, and as much as I do not like Glocks I encouraged him to either keep it or swap it for an XD in 9mm. Reason is quite simple... he is ALL OVER THE TARGET with the .45, and can't afford to practice with it.

Showed up at my place 2 weeks ago with... you guessed it... an XDc in .45 which he hadn't shot. I set up a B27 target, and along with my SR9c we started shooting. He shot the man's legs off, neutered him, gave him a nasty shoulder wound, eventually got a couple in the stomach. My turn, and I filled the BG's head with bullets. He blamed his XD's sights.

After several magazines each, he asked me if I'd like to shoot his gun. The target was pretty riddled with holes, so I decided to shoot the miniature silhouette in the upper left corner of the target. Put 8 of 10 inside the image (about 8 to 10 yards). What my son muttered next is not printable in THR.

We talked about several things, foremost the fact that I had close to a couple thousand rounds of practice, and he hadn't broken 250. We also worked on his grip a little, discussed sight picture, etc.

Fast forward to yesterday... he went to the range with a co-worker who is a knowledgeable gun enthusiast. The grip helped. Sight picture helped. Shooting his buddy's Glock 19 helped... way more! My humble son called to inform me he was now in the market for an XDc in 9mm.

"Why?" I asked him, curious to see what lessons he learned.

"Because the muzzle doesn't rise so much. Because he bought twice as many cartridges as I for half as much money. Because I can follow up shots easier. Because the cartridges are cheaper and I can practice more. Because I was way more accurate. And because I like to shoot and I can BUY MORE CARTRIDGES!!"

He then added (what I've told him for years) his buddy told him that with modern SD ammo, the difference isn't all that great between 9mm and .45... "especially when you can shoot like that," pointing to my son's now respectable grouping.

I told my son, "Didn't your old man tell you that, oh, several years ago?"

"Go ahead... say 'I told you so!'"

With a grin... "I just did!!!"

He did say he still loves the .45 and believes it to be a superior cartridge. I completely agreed... IF he has the money to practice a lot and IF he can be as accurate as he is with 9mm. Keep 'em both, boy!

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tnxdshooter
June 6, 2013, 12:08 PM
Please get this, if you don't get another thing... IT AIN'T A CALIBER WAR! It's all about circumstances.

Several years ago my son bought a XDc in .45. In the three or so years he owned it he shot about 200 rounds. He got rid of it during some tough times, then won a Glock 26 in a raffle. Immediately he started talking about selling it for another XDc in .45, and as much as I do not like Glocks I encouraged him to either keep it or swap it for an XD in 9mm. Reason is quite simple... he is ALL OVER THE TARGET with the .45, and can't afford to practice with it.

Showed up at my place 2 weeks ago with... you guessed it... an XDc in .45 which he hadn't shot. I set up a B27 target, and along with my SR9c we started shooting. He shot the man's legs off, neutered him, gave him a nasty shoulder wound, eventually got a couple in the stomach. My turn, and I filled the BG's head with bullets. He blamed his XD's sights.

After several magazines each, he asked me if I'd like to shoot his gun. The target was pretty riddled with holes, so I decided to shoot the miniature silhouette in the upper left corner of the target. Put 8 of 10 inside the image (about 8 to 10 yards). What my son muttered next is not printable in THR.

We talked about several things, foremost the fact that I had close to a couple thousand rounds of practice, and he hadn't broken 250. We also worked on his grip a little, discussed sight picture, etc.

Fast forward to yesterday... he went to the range with a co-worker who is a knowledgeable gun enthusiast. The grip helped. Sight picture helped. Shooting his buddy's Glock 19 helped... way more! My humble son called to inform me he was now in the market for an XDc in 9mm.

"Why?" I asked him, curious to see what lessons he learned.

"Because the muzzle doesn't rise so much. Because he bought twice as many cartridges as I for half as much money. Because I can follow up shots easier. Because the cartridges are cheaper and I can practice more. Because I was way more accurate. And because I like to shoot and I can BUY MORE CARTRIDGES!!"

He then added (what I've told him for years) his buddy told him that with modern SD ammo, the difference isn't all that great between 9mm and .45... "especially when you can shoot like that," pointing to my son's now respectable grouping.

I told my son, "Didn't your old man tell you that, oh, several years ago?"

"Go ahead... say 'I told you so!'"

With a grin... "I just did!!!"

He did say he still loves the .45 and believes it to be a superior cartridge. I completely agreed... IF he has the money to practice a lot and IF he can be as accurate as he is with 9mm. Keep 'em both, boy!

The difference is way greater in stopping power even with todays better ammo. .45 has allot better stopping power. But it is indeed more expensive to shoot. So I went with .40 caliber instead. If still have my 1911 if I hadn't had some home repairs.

Sent from my mind using ninja telepathy.

TarDevil
June 6, 2013, 12:15 PM
The difference is way greater in stopping power even with todays better ammo. .45 has allot better stopping power. But it is indeed more expensive to shoot. So I went with .40 caliber instead. If still have my 1911 if I hadn't had some home repairs.

Sent from my mind using ninja telepathy.
I fear, as expected, you missed the point.

NOT A CALIBER WAR, FOLKS!

MedWheeler
June 6, 2013, 12:25 PM
Well done, TarDevil. Those who will make this a "caliber war" thread (and they will come) are missing your point indeed. So, I'll explain what I take it to be:

It's not that you believe your son has "done right" by coming specifically to the 9mm Luger round. What pleases you is that he has come to realize that the round he can handle well, afford to practice (and have fun) with, and is readily available, is the one that he should be first working with. Of course he can "graduate" to the "mighty .45" later if he wants to. And, yes, it pleases you some to know that you already knew and had shared what he is now learning.

My first handgun was in .357 Magnum. Not a first good choice for a beginning shooter, but obviously a far-better overall choice for defensive use in experienced hands. Mine were not, so I had no hesitation with going back a few weeks later and picking up a .22LR.

TarDevil
June 6, 2013, 12:38 PM
Well done, TarDevil. Those who will make this a "caliber war" thread (and they will come) are missing your point indeed. So, I'll explain what I take it to be:

It's not that you believe your son has "done right" by coming specifically to the 9mm Luger round. What pleases you is that he has come to realize that the round he can handle well, afford to practice (and have fun) with, and is readily available, is the one that he should be first working with. Of course he can "graduate" to the "mighty .45" later if he wants to. And, yes, it pleases you some to know that you already knew and had shared what he is now learning.

My first handgun was in .357 Magnum. Not a first good choice for a beginning shooter, but obviously a far-better overall choice for defensive use in experienced hands. Mine were not, so I had no hesitation with going back a few weeks later and picking up a .22LR.
Bingo!

Edited to add: Sometimes it has to come from someone other than "Dad!"

Potatohead
June 6, 2013, 12:39 PM
thats a pretty dawg gone good story. wish i woulda listened more to my pops

Certaindeaf
June 6, 2013, 12:40 PM
Has he ever shot a .22? lolz

Listen to Dad!

tnxdshooter
June 6, 2013, 12:57 PM
Well done, TarDevil. Those who will make this a "caliber war" thread (and they will come) are missing your point indeed. So, I'll explain what I take it to be:

It's not that you believe your son has "done right" by coming specifically to the 9mm Luger round. What pleases you is that he has come to realize that the round he can handle well, afford to practice (and have fun) with, and is readily available, is the one that he should be first working with. Of course he can "graduate" to the "mighty .45" later if he wants to. And, yes, it pleases you some to know that you already knew and had shared what he is now learning.

My first handgun was in .357 Magnum. Not a first good choice for a beginning shooter, but obviously a far-better overall choice for defensive use in experienced hands. Mine were not, so I had no hesitation with going back a few weeks later and picking up a .22LR.

That makes more sense.

Sent from my mind using ninja telepathy.

TarDevil
June 6, 2013, 01:00 PM
Has he ever shot a .22? lolz

Quite honestly, I don't think so. He is an avid hunter and has taken numerous deer with bows and .30-06, so he's been around guns of some type for a while. However, his first venture into handguns was the .45. He and girlfriend/then wife/then ex-wife/now girlfriend also has her CCP, and he bought her a Rossi .357. He was thoughtful enough to load it with .38s when they qualified (and I still don't know how he passed).

Certaindeaf
June 6, 2013, 01:07 PM
Well it sounds like you're a good Pop, no pun intended.

Get him into .22's. Though to be honest, I've only shot a very tiny fraction of rimfire compared to centerfire over my "career".

Old Fuff
June 6, 2013, 01:26 PM
I think that most of those that have any experience will agree that the .45 offers more recoil then the 9mm, all other factors being equal. If both cartridges are used in identical (relatively lightweight) polymer framed pistols the difference in felt recoil is more prenounced.

While they're may be more to the story, I think this is the principal reason that the son, who is a relatively inexperienced handgun shooter, shoots better with the 9mm, as does his father. It is also the reason that the 9mm cartridge is more popular in sub-machine guns then the .45 ACP.

I will go further and suggest that the son would do even better if he tried a quality .22 target pistol. This of course would not be a good choice for a personal protection weapon, but it is great when it comes to learning handgun marksmansip.

Perhaps if at a shooting range, an experienced shooters were to shoot the .45 the results might show that it is acceptably accurate. At a distance of 20 yards or less, shots peppered all over a silhouette target are seldom the guns fault, regardless of what cartridge it might be chambered for.

TarDevil
June 6, 2013, 01:43 PM
I think that most of those that have any experience will agree that the .45 offers more recoil then the 9mm, all other factors being equal. If both cartridges are used in identical (relatively lightweight) polymer framed pistols the difference in felt recoil is more prenounced.

While they're may be more to the story, I think this is the principal reason that the son, who is a relatively inexperienced handgun shooter, shoots better with the 9mm, as does his father. It is also the reason that the 9mm cartridge is more popular in sub-machine guns then the .45 ACP.

I will go further and suggest that the son would do even better if he tried a quality .22 target pistol. This of course would not be a good choice for a personal protection weapon, but it is great when it comes to learning handgun marksmansip.

Perhaps if at a shooting range, an experienced shooters were to shoot the .45 the results might show that it is acceptably accurate. At a distance of 20 yards or less, shots peppered all over a silhouette target are seldom the guns fault, regardless of what cartridge it might be chambered for.
Yeah, he had a really bad grip at first... support hand wasn't supporting at all. That certainly contributed to his improved groupings.

Strangely, I really didn't notice the additional recoil when I shot his .45 and my groups were fine. I really wasn't thinking about recoil, just the target. I wish I had paid attention to my rate of fire compared to my 9mm. I suspect in timed drills, I would always do better with the 9.

Orion8472
June 6, 2013, 01:57 PM
Cost of rounds was one of the main considerations when I decided to get into handguns. I do not feel "underpowered" with the 9mm, but my wallet isn't nearly as drained either. I'm bound to the 9mm now. My supply dictates that. However, at some point in the future, I may get a 45acp pistol to play with. Probably an FNX-45 [w/ 15 round magazines].

Old Fuff
June 6, 2013, 02:21 PM
Yeah, he had really bad grip at first... support had wasn't supporting at all. That certainly contributed to his improved groupings.

They're many factors that can affect his shooting and be hidden by recoil. When you use a .22 some of them will become noticed. For example he may be flinching. If you have a smart phone or video-cam, make a video of him shooting and see if it shows anything.

Jeff Cooper took the position that no one should try to get into combat training until they had first mastered marksmanship basics. At his training facility, Gunsite he could quickly tell who had and who hadn't.

TarDevil
June 6, 2013, 04:40 PM
They're many factors that can affect his shooting and be hidden by recoil. When you use a .22 some of them will become noticed. For example he may be flinching. If you have a smart phone or video-cam, make a video of him shooting and see if it shows anything.
Good idea! I also told him to stick a pencil in the barrel and practice dry firing against a piece of paper.
Jeff Cooper took the position that no one should try to get into combat training until they had first mastered marksmanship basics. At his training facility, Gunsite he could quickly tell who had and who hadn't.
Another concept I tried to ingrain in him long time ago.. that without skill with his gun he shouldn't even carry.

Certaindeaf
June 6, 2013, 04:58 PM
Good idea! I also told him to stick a pencil in the barrel and practice dry firing against a piece of paper..
lolz. I tell people to stick bread in their mouths while cutting onions. It amuses me.

Byrd666
June 6, 2013, 05:17 PM
Well, it may have taken your son a day or 100 but, at least he finally understood what you were saying. Peer pressure is a Mother, but it works well on occasion.

Glad he finally "got it."

col_temp
June 7, 2013, 09:06 PM
Great story, thanks for sharing...

beatledog7
June 7, 2013, 11:53 PM
I shot both .45ACP and 9mm well enough in the Navy to qualify sharpshooter--always missed expert by a hit or two (folks at my pay grade never got much range time).

When I decided to buy a semi, I went with a 40 (Gen4 G22). I own semis in .380, 9mm and .45ACP now (and I reload them all), but I still shoot best with the .40S&W. It's a great cartridge and worthy of better press than it often gets.

Thanks for the story. Sounds like your son has learned some valuable principles. His story is the kind I like to use in teaching pistol classes.

smalls
June 8, 2013, 02:21 AM
Shoot/carry what you shoot best. Smaller holes are better than no holes!

Eb1
June 8, 2013, 02:49 AM
I like my .380 because I can put all 9 shots in a 3" circle at 10 yards in about 5 seconds or less.
The same goes for my 4" XD9, but I can't carry it all day long unless I am in the woods and wearing a OWB with a stiff belt.
My .44 Mag is grapefruit good to 50 yards, but I can't carry that all day every day unless I am wearing it cross draw.
My .25-06 is good for MOA out to 400+ yards, but it is hard to convince anyone that it is a CCW.

dwstone1227
June 8, 2013, 09:11 PM
Good choice for your title. One of my very favorites. Look on the very bright side of this experience. At least you now know your son can admit he erred. I for one have always learned more from my mistakes, than I have from my successes. :)

murf
June 8, 2013, 09:22 PM
if he likes it, he will be comfortable with it. that is 90 percent of the battle.

murf

JonathanE
June 9, 2013, 01:02 AM
He and girlfriend/then wife/then ex-wife/now girlfriend...

Is he ready to listen to your advice in this arena as well?

hentown
June 9, 2013, 09:52 AM
I would have hoped that father and son would both have learned something from the son's G19 experience!:evil: He shoots the Glock great, then goes for an XD...yeah, that's the ticket! ;)

TarDevil
June 9, 2013, 09:58 AM
Is he ready to listen to your advice in this arena as well?
Oh my... I doubt the mods wanna open that can of worms... And guns don't get offended if you don't like the one you brought home!

TarDevil
June 9, 2013, 10:14 AM
I would have hoped that father and son would both have learned something from the son's G19 experience!:evil: He shoots the Glock great, then goes for an XD...yeah, that's the ticket! ;)
"Father" had that discussion, and he was encouraged to give some thought to the gun. Though he shot it better (not great), it felt awkward compared to his XD. Hopefully he wiill find a way to shoot the XD9 prior to purchasing it.

ch45x7
June 11, 2013, 12:42 PM
My very first handgun was an XD45 4". I went against my instincts of getting a 1911, and boy was I wrong. At 50' I was lucky to hit paper (not even the target, just paper) 2x out of 10. Sold it and switched to a 1911, same distance 8 out of 10 in the black. At the time WWB 45 was $20 at walmart, 9mm was $16 and there was plenty of both. Now I have 2 45's and 2 9mm's and when I can find ammo they are about the same price. :( I prefer the push of the 45 over the snap of the 9mm, but both are great rounds!

I still can't hit anything with any XD I've tried, no idea why.

jim243
June 11, 2013, 02:04 PM
I still can't hit anything with any XD I've tried, no idea why.

Might be the sights or the fact that the bore is higher up on the XD.

Jim

Great story.

RetiredUSNChief
June 11, 2013, 05:15 PM
Heh!

I remember my first pistol...an AMT Automag II (.22 WMR). I could pop the head on a squirrel at 75 feet with my rifle, but I couldn't hit squat with my pistol! It took me quite a bit of practice to get the control down pat...though some would say that it didn't take too long because I tended to shoot a LOT whenever I went out target shooting. So a couple-three days in total was all it took. But my pistol was most certainly "broken in" at the end of that time! And I continued to increase my proficiency afterwards, of course.

Your son, I think, would have done just as well with his .45 if he had actually taken the time to practice from the ground up, using good techniques, concentrating on learning how to maintain a good sight picture, good trigger control...and having the patience to shoot like he had to make every shot count.

It just would have cost him more in .45 than, say, 9mm. But then, I suspect by the time he learned that with his co-worker he had probably already spent all the money required on .45 ammunition that would have been necessary for that.

:D

Looks like your son finally took some good advice to heart from someone else. Sometimes that's what it takes...an outside agency.

Lord knows I've a daughter like that. She's just learned the hard way that summer school is a reality for her this year for math. Talk about upset! Part of her schooling will involve a tutor, which my wife questioned the necessity of because she feels our daughter does well when I work with her. I told her that a tutor is an outside authority that would bring a different level of respect from her than a parent would. Sometimes that's what it takes.

;)

TarDevil
June 11, 2013, 06:16 PM
I still can't hit anything with any XD I've tried, no idea why.
I had shot an XD several years ago... did ok, but nothing great. In the last outing, I actually shot as well with my son's XD as I do my Ruger, though I have very little experience with it. Guess that's why they makes 'em different, eh?

Your son, I think, would have done just as well with his .45 if he had actually taken the time to practice from the ground up, using good techniques, concentrating on learning how to maintain a good sight picture, good trigger control...and having the patience to shoot like he had to make every shot count.

It just would have cost him more in .45 than, say, 9mm. But then, I suspect by the time he learned that with his co-worker he had probably already spent all the money required on .45 ammunition that would have been necessary for that.
We ran out of ammo before I thought to look at his grip and talk to him about sight picture, etc. I agree.. I think I could've improved his groups a little with work on his techniques. He admitted the grip I showed him helped with control when shooting with his coworker.

I still think once things return to "normal" (if that's possible), he'll get a lot more trigger time with a 9mm and will improve even more.

Teachu2
June 13, 2013, 02:50 PM
My wife swore she wasn't flinching - until I left two spent cartridges in the .38 Airweight revolver....and then she could SEE the flinch!

I often take a Ruger 22/45 with a VQ trigger group to the range with my "big guns". It'll hone a fine edge on your skillset!

Officers'Wife
June 13, 2013, 03:01 PM
Perhaps he could find an adapter for the weapon that would allow him to practice with .22rf then switch over to .45?

Mat, not doormat
June 14, 2013, 03:55 AM
The first step is to get the bullet in the right place. Only then should you worry about the size of the hole it makes when it gets there. If tilting the gun size to bullet size ratio further in the direction of the gun helps get the bullets in the right place, then by all means, do so.

Spawn91
June 15, 2013, 11:55 AM
I got the point, I was just like your son.. Buying big caliber handguns and not being able to shoot them worth a squat or afford to shoot them.. I finally listened to my dad and started shooting the smaller calibers and boom,I could suddenly shoot tighter groups..now my favorite pistol and the one I always shoot is my g17

Spawn91
June 15, 2013, 11:56 AM
Point is .. Listen to your daddy.. He knows much more then you..:)daddies are wise..

Showman
June 15, 2013, 01:16 PM
I'm not going to start any kind of a "caliber war" discussion here, either...just gonna add my 2 cents. Everybody's got an opinion, right?
I don't have a "dog" in this fight (reference my "Snow White and the Seven Dwarves" ditty). I'm all for a person carrying and using whatever they feel confidence in. All I can say is that I can handle a good bit of handgun recoil, but at my age (51) I don't have an ego investment about how "big and badd" a round is that I might shoot (or own a pistol in). And you can't miss fast enough to win, we all know that.
But we also all know that "serious stopping power begins with calibers that start with a 4"...or so some people have told us. What good is your .4 when your .4 hits 0 times, however? We big stud cowboys don't like to admit that some guns are just too big for us to handle and that we don't really like to shoot them, either because they cost too much or kick harder than we can control. Somehow, "I shoot a big bad .45" sounds more "masculine" than "I shoot a medium, soft-shooting 9". Anything wrong with either gun? Nope.
When you get old enough, you don't have anything left to prove. You don't have to have the fastest car, the toughest horse, the spiciest jalapeno, or the most powerful gun. Age has a way of leveling things and making you more realistic about life.
If I am going to shoot something with a little "hurt" on me or my pocketbook, that hurt had better be necessary for the occasion...otherwise, I don't want to be bothered. I'm glad the young man has the right gun for his needs. He would be a lot more fearsome foe for any badman than any "macho dude" with a gun too large to handle.

Officers'Wife
June 15, 2013, 05:48 PM
Point is .. Listen to your daddy.. He knows much more then you..:)daddies are wise..
Fathers, like kings, are not always wise they are sometimes just there.

That said, my little Commander is .38 Super. It's not my father's pistol. But my father can put a ball in the target at 50 yards with his pistol and I cannot. With the .38 Super I can. As my late uncle used to say, a .22 ball through the brain beats a .45 ball through the drywall.

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