Cocked and Locked Becomes Unlocked


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Drakejake
March 18, 2004, 04:29 PM
I have a Star PD compact .45 which I sometimes carry. It has a very light trigger and the traditional 1911 manual safety. Today I took the PD out of my waist-pack and was surprised to see that the safety was off. It was still cocked. Later I was trying it with several holsters and after withdrawing it from one of these discovered that the safety against had been again been turned off accidentally. This pistol has a half-cock position but no grip safety. How often have you noticed a safety on a single action pistol being shifted to off through contact with a holster or with clothing? Does this scare you?

Thanks,

Drakejake

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McNutt
March 18, 2004, 04:38 PM
It should scare you. You need to have a tighter fitting safety. I wouldn't carry with that gun again until that is fixed.

Majic
March 18, 2004, 04:45 PM
You should check the safety's plunger spring. It may be weak and allowing the safety to easily flip off. Also check the indenture behind the safety lever where the plunger contacts it and see that it hasn't beveled.
These are relatively easy fixes on manual safeties if the parts are available. So no, it doesn't bother me.

Grump
March 18, 2004, 06:37 PM
You need a holster that doesn't rub the safety so hard, too. Mold a bit of relief space if it's leather, other measures may or may not work for plastics.

The Tourist
March 18, 2004, 06:51 PM
I always fear the same thing.

When Tussey builds my pistols around his reliability package, I always have him set/adjust the trigger to +5 pounds. His trigger are so smooth that no one can tell anyway, and it stops having the gun go off if lightly bumped. While he's at it, he stiffens the spring on the safety, but that's not the best part.

He also machine a slight divot into the lever itself so the plunger spring insets into this divot.

He even fpound a way to machine the lever on my .380 Colt Government that makes it very hard to knock off the safety.

While any gunsmith could probably do the same modification, he's the only one I've seen who fitted a pistol for me in this fashion. If it does bother you, please contact him, he does great work, and he's a stitch to talk to!

Majic
March 18, 2004, 07:17 PM
Most safeties have that indenture Tourist. The gunsmith may deepen it, but it's already there for the plunger to sit in. Otherwise there's nothing for the plunger to actually stop the lever.

Mannlicher
March 18, 2004, 08:58 PM
I have two of those old PDs, and have never experienced anything like that. As others have advised though, I would NOT carry it until its been checked out.

WonderNine
March 18, 2004, 09:14 PM
I found this used to happen with my BHP that had an ambidextrous safety. Eventually realized that it was happening when I was buttoning my holster shut. Duuuuuuhh! :rolleyes:

Drjones
March 18, 2004, 10:16 PM
I've read of several instances where someone's thumb safety had been flicked off somehow, and never did an ND (or AD for that matter) result.

Go over to www.1911forum.com and do research if you like.

It's definitely not unheard of, and has just about never resulted in the gun going off. (AD)

Just think; people have been carrying this weapon for about 100 years. This has happened to lots of other people, and mostly without incident.

I would definitely get it checked out, and personally, if I were carrying a SA Auto, I'd like it with a grip safety too, please. :)

PATH
March 18, 2004, 10:59 PM
That would scare me. I would have the gun looked at before I carried it again. Better safe than sorry.

Hedger
March 18, 2004, 11:11 PM
I would dump the PD for CCW and get a Sig, Springfield XD shorty. 357 revolver or something that didn't require you to worry about whether you were going to be doing .45 surgery on yourself everytime you move. :neener:

There is no reason to go cocked and locked for CCW with all the handgun choices out there today.

The Tourist
March 18, 2004, 11:15 PM
Majic,

Yes, however I was trying to convey the idea that good gunsmiths can make things 'harder,' or with stiffer spring tension, but still make that action smooth.

Have you ever worked the action and racked the slide and felt something gritty? Then after a few rounds, a cleaning and proper lubrication, the same pistol feels easier to operate and yet, the original springs are installed. That's the feeling.

I just like this guy's work. I've sent guns in, and minor scratches are polished off. He sees them, and takes care of them. When I have hex head grip screws ordered, they come polished to a high sheen. Magazines that don't rattle in the well, drop free and easily. These are the signs that this guy cares.

My single stacker, vintage 1984, still runs tight and shoots into a poker chip.

You are certainly correct about stock guns, but I wish you were here now so I could hand you these examples and let you actuallu activate the safety. Hard, and smooth.

Drakejake
March 18, 2004, 11:23 PM
I have checked out the safety on this PD and it seems to work OK. It doesn't seem to be worn or too weak. This pistol is in almost new condition. So I think these safeties can be accidentally turned on or off even though they are functioning as intended.

Drakejake

Clean97GTI
March 19, 2004, 12:45 AM
Go for a more modern design. DAO may be a great alternative. A smooth sided pistol with no levers to snag makes for a very safe carry weapon. DA/SA if you feel the need for a manual safety. A decocker doesn't make much sense, (to me) you may as well carry DAO and get a smoother profile.

Cthulhu
March 19, 2004, 05:00 AM
There is no reason to go cocked and locked for CCW with all the handgun choices out there today.

:rolleyes:

No, it doesn't scare me, although I can't say the same for statements like the those above. If the gun is in a holster that covers the trigger, it is not going to go off if bumped, even if the safety is off. This doesn't mean that you shouldn't have the safety detent adjusted to make it more positive and or modify the holster in question. The PD, if functioning correctly and carried in a proper rig, is no more dangerous than any other conventional pistol or revolver. No sense eschewing a weapon that you are already familiar with for the illusion of enhanced safety. You are much more prone to have an ND while handling an unfamiliar weapon than to see a true AD occur while the pistol is holstered. I agree that if one is uncomfortable carrying a Star/1911 style C&L, they should chose another carry gun rather than carry one condition 2 or 3 (or 0 :uhoh: ) but never would I try to convince them that a DAO or DA/SA was somehow better or safer.

BluesBear
March 19, 2004, 06:14 AM
Well said Cthulhu.

cratz2
March 19, 2004, 10:07 AM
I caried cocked and locked for a long time, I only had one 1911 that ever had the safety wiped off inadvertantly and then only once.

I agree that I would have minimal concern for the thumb safety as long as the trigger guard was covered by the holster but having the grip safety there would make me feel a touch safer.

Either way, I'd have it looked at and addressed if you have a decent smith locally.

Edward429451
March 19, 2004, 10:26 AM
Yeah. I found my 1911 off safe for the third tome in 20 yrs recently. It didn't scare me par se but it always makes me sit up and take notice. I felt more relieved than apprehensive (felt like I dished Murphy in line.) I'm glad the grip safety and firing pin safety is there. I had to wonder how long it was off before I noticed it. After the first time it happened to me, I took to occassionally checking the condition of the safety by feel when I carry. The first time I caught it, it was at night as I was taking it off. The other two times I caught it by feel while out & about while it was still in the holster and concealed.

Yeah, it's dangerous. It's a gun. Strict adhereance to the four rules has kept me safe. A good dose of love for my butt cheek makes me check it sometimes. Daily activity while carrying will make this happen. Best to be a step ahead of Mr Murphy and keep this in mind. There's nothing wrong with my gun. Sometimes walking will make the shoe laces come untied is all. Check then so you don't trip yourself.

I don't buy into the theory of holster it and forget it. Even with a good holster and a conscious mind things happen, so don't forget that you have a gun pointed at you all day long!

another okie
March 19, 2004, 10:31 AM
Thus the importance of the thumb strap when carrying a cocked and locked. Also, some holsters are better at keeping the safety on than others. The Bianchi Black Widow will swipe off any safety larger than the one John Browning designed, while my Don Hume protects the thumb safety.

Mr. Mysterious
March 19, 2004, 10:31 AM
I would worry about the safety coming off more if you don't have a lot of practice unholstering. If you are unfamiliar to unholstering, add to the stress of a situation you may inadvertantly put your finger on the trigger and...well you can guess the rest.

Sean Smith
March 19, 2004, 11:16 AM
There is no reason to go cocked and locked for CCW with all the handgun choices out there today.

If you want a trigger pull that doesn't suck and is consistent, then yes, there is definitely a reason to carry a single-action automatic C&L.

Go for a more modern design.

Like what? One that changes pull weight & length of pull from one shot to the next? Or one that consistently sucks for every shot? ;)

Drjones
March 19, 2004, 12:15 PM
This thread is a bright, shining example of why I love Glocks so much: No external, manual safety to worry about and fumble with.

:D

dairycreek
March 19, 2004, 12:26 PM
Does this scare you?

Dambetchalordalmighty yes!

If there is no grip safety and the manual safety is not reliable for the purpose. Fix it NOW before something really, really bad happens. Like I said NOW!!!

Avery Goodschott
March 19, 2004, 12:37 PM
I satisfied myself on this issue by additional range time to thoroughly test the grip safety.

But I also bought a holster with a thumbbreak where the strap goes under the hammer.

And I DO NOT use ambi-safeties (the outside safety is uncovered)

Cocked and locked and strapped and covered

Correia
March 19, 2004, 12:39 PM
I carry a c&l 1911 every day. The safety has never come off. And even if it did, I still need to depress the grip safety (like on the "more modern" XD) and pull the trigger (like on the "more modern" Glock). Cocked and locked isn't more dangerous than anything else, it is just perceived as more dangerous.

Grump
March 19, 2004, 12:40 PM
Safety wipe-off is exactly why I strongly recommend AGAINST Mexican carry for any cocked & locked pistol...especially if for more than 5 minutes.

Majic
March 19, 2004, 02:58 PM
Tourist,
I do understand and appreciate the skill of a god gunsmith and no doubt yours does excellent work. I was just pointing out that even though he enhanced the positive locking of your safety they still come serviceable from the factory. I like to handle any finely crafted firearm, especially those that have had the magic of a fine gunsmith worked on them.

Back to the topic, a safety being mechanical device is subject to malfunction. Rule numero one, don't put all your faith in it. Your finger is the only safety device you can fully trust.
Snaps on holsters are fine for those who chooses them, but unless the sear trips a handgun will not fire. Holsters with covered trigger guards are the best option at preventing this.
All the various actions used in handguns today are safe as long as you adhere to the recommended safe handling of them. Training accomplishes this task. Those who chooses not to train for the use of a single action pistol that has manual safeties shouldn't use them, but more importantly they shouldn't be telling others not to use theirs.
What a lot of people call a modern design is nothing more than a variation of a design that has been well proven in the past. It just comes in a different package today. Features may be moved to different locations, materials used may be different, but the basic design is still the same as it has been since the early part of the last century.

Mr. Mysterious
March 19, 2004, 05:09 PM
Mexican carry?

Sean Smith
March 19, 2004, 05:15 PM
This thread is a bright, shining example of why I love Glocks so much: No external, manual safety to worry about and fumble with.

Put another way, "I'm too dumb to push down a lever, I'll take a Glock please!" :D

I say that as a onetime Glock owner.

zahc
March 19, 2004, 05:53 PM
Mexican carry?

No holster.

waistband carry.

BluesBear
March 19, 2004, 09:45 PM
In my not so humble opinion Cocked & Locked is much, much safer and far more preferable to Cocked & Glocked.

Mr. Mysterious
March 19, 2004, 09:47 PM
People actually carry a gun in their waistband without a holster? That is sure scary.

Grayrider
March 20, 2004, 11:15 AM
Yes they do--even those who should know better. I had an aquantance years ago that was a retired St. Louis PD officer. He told me he had done that for quite some time off duty with his revolver, until one night he stopped at a convenience store on the way home and when he walked up to the counter his gun slid down his pants leg and went clatter, clatter across the floor. Needless to say the cashier was a bit frightened until my friend was able to produce his badge.

:D

I will stick to a holster thank you.

GR

Abominable No-Man
March 20, 2004, 11:44 PM
I haven't carried a 1911 cocked and locked for CCW before, but I know people who have and do. With a proper holster, the safety won't come off by itself, unless the safety is excessively worn or improperly fitted (I have seen old gov't issue 1911's that rattled when shook, and I have actually seen one REALLY tired example discharge with the safety on).

I agree with what was said about "Mexican carry". Get a holster.

ANM

Marshall
March 21, 2004, 12:33 AM
I have no problem with cocked and locked! However, until you strap an XD to your side, it's hard to appreciate the feeling of safety and ready to fire, so to speak. Hard to describe but, it's a good feeling.

:)

Majic
March 21, 2004, 04:10 AM
However, until you strap an XD to your side, it's hard to appreciate the feeling of safety and ready to fire, so to speak.
What makes the XD unique? There have been other designs that have utilized the same technique in the past. S&W and the "Lemon Squeezer" revolver and H&K had the "Squeeze Cocker" pistol. There's not much offered on a handgun today that haven't been pioneered in the past.

Sean Smith
March 21, 2004, 10:41 AM
Actually, the XD just has a grip safety, like a 1911, but with a light trigger pull and no manual safety. ;)

Tamara
March 21, 2004, 10:52 AM
I CCW a 1911 every day in a holster with no snap. Some of these guns have (*gasp!*) ambidextrous thumb safeties. So far, I have yet to find one off safe.

omega5
March 21, 2004, 11:04 AM
The fourth word in your thread reveals your problem, "Star". One of our officers had his Star in a shoulder holster. Somehow, the snap came loose and it fell to the concrete floor. The round missed him by a fraction of an inch, went thru the wall, missing me in the next room by inches and lodged in a 4x4 beam in part of the 'old' jail. He traded it in on a Colt the next day. I just don't trust a Star.:mad:

Michigun
March 21, 2004, 11:43 AM
I guess it would scare half of you guys here to death to learn that I pinned the thumb safety on my 1911's... yup, I carried it cocked & unlocked with a chambered round. No fear, I still had the grip safety, a good holster that covered the trigger guard & most importantly, the safety between my ears.

I also carry my CZ75B this way...

Haven’t shot myself with any of them.

I hate manual safeties & prefer my trigger pulls to be the same from start to finish. I also like my defense triggers to be a MAX of 4.5 pounds.

Marshall
March 21, 2004, 11:54 AM
What makes the XD unique?

It should have read "an XD type". I need to proof better. :scrutiny:

In addition to the grip safety you also have the trigger safety, not all have both.

Sean Smith
March 21, 2004, 03:37 PM
Yeah, the trigger safety is REALLY useful... ;)

Ron_Miami
March 21, 2004, 04:00 PM
The fourth word in your thread reveals your problem, "Star". One of our officers had his Star in a shoulder holster. Somehow, the snap came loose and it fell to the concrete floor. The round missed him by a fraction of an inch, went thru the wall, missing me in the next room by inches and lodged in a 4x4 beam in part of the 'old' jail. He traded it in on a Colt the next day. I just don't trust a Star.

Older Stars do not have an inertial firing pin. They are unsafe in condition two, a blow to the hammer can cause a discharge.

Just my guess as to what happened.

BluesBear
March 21, 2004, 06:14 PM
I guess it would scare half of you guys here to death to learn that I pinned the thumb safety on my 1911's... yup, Well you said it best... YUP.

Actually, were I unfortunate enough to find myself around someone reckless enough to intentionally carry a 1911 pattern pistol cocked & unlocked, being scared to death would not be one of my major concerns.

Strings
March 22, 2004, 01:25 AM
funny... I've only ever seen two pistols "accidentlly" off safety: one was my Beretta 92, when in use with a thumb-break holster (snapping the thumbbreak would hit the right side safety) and my mother's old Colt Mustang (that thing's safety REALLY wasn't all that good... seemed to come off at random)...

Michigun
March 22, 2004, 09:24 AM
BluesBear, I refer you to your own “signature line”:

“The safety and purpose of a firearm depends entirely upon the person handling it.(Lupine 01-14-04)”

uglymofo
March 22, 2004, 10:52 AM
Thus the importance of the thumb strap when carrying a cocked and locked. Also, some holsters are better at keeping the safety on than others.

I've got an AKJ for my BHP and am a convert. I like AKJ CONCEALCO line of holsters because they offer a "Sparks-like" VM2 or WatchSix-type holster with a thumbbreak and a snugger-fitting loop setup for less money. In fact, I'm about ready to dump my WS whenever my AKJ (in 1911 configuration) arrives.

Running, jumping, crawling under the truck, I don't worry about the gun coming out.

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