Nobel 12 ga Minibuck gelatin test


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chopinbloc
June 7, 2013, 06:49 PM
*Correction: Nobel not Centurion. (Fixed it for you - ff)

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12 ga Nobel Minibuck #00 fired into calibrated gelatin from 18.5" bbl Mossberg 500A.

BB calibration: 586.7 fps, 3.7"

Impact velocity: 1,232 fps
Max penetration: 23.5"
Avg penetration 19"-20"

These are not the Aguila mini shells. Those would not function in Mossberg shotguns because the front of the shell would fall through the gap in the elevator. These Nobel mini shells are long enough to function properly, as you can see in the video. I can fit 6 of them in my normally 5 round magazine. The seventh cartridge makes it about 3/4 of the way in so a seven round tube might hold 9 rounds but I haven't had an opportunity to try. They appear to be loaded with 6 pellets. Recoil was very mild.

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Fred Fuller
June 7, 2013, 10:09 PM
A tech note to all fwiw - to edit a title in a thread you started:

1- Click on EDIT
2- Then click on GO ADVANCED
3- Edit your title in the title box
4- Then click on SAVE CHANGES

That's it...
========

Thanks much for the tests and the video. They are appreciated.

But, some people are never satisfied, right? :D

FWIW, in a pattern test. I had much rather see single patterns on paper at a given range, rather than patterns from multiple shots. That makes it easier to see what a given load at a given range does out of a given barrel/choke.

And patterns at various ranges (5, 10, 15 yards or the like) are helpful in determining the rate of spread for a given load out of a given barrel.

How many 00 pellets in each shell?

That high a velocity for that little recoil looks very interesting. Good penetration, too. Might work well as a HD load for someone who for whatever reason can't handle a lot of recoil. And they seem to cycle well, in your 500. Mossberg pumps seem to be pretty forgiving of shorter shells like that, how many rounds of these do you have through your gun so far? Since functional reliability is THE prime consideration for defensive ammunition, it's IMHO the most important factor to consider.

chopinbloc
June 7, 2013, 10:19 PM
Thanks for the tip and the fix.

Each cartridge has six pellets.

Next time I test a shotgun load I'll do that.

Fred Fuller
June 7, 2013, 10:24 PM
Dave McC used to handload 2 3/4" shells with 6 pellets of 00 to experiment with - he was pleased with how they worked. I'd bet he'd be really happy to see the marketplace supplying these.

Again, thanks for your experimental work, and especially for sharing it here.

ETA - I see these listed as available from several online suppliers. First I found was J&G:
------------------------------------

http://www.jgsales.com/12ga-ns-centurion-mini-buck-6-pellet,-00-buckshot-2.2,-10rd-box.-p-3243.html

http://www.jgsales.com/product_thumb.php?img=images/1%2012GA%20Centurion%2000%20Buck%202in%20mini%205001554.jpg&w=240&h=143

12Ga NS- Centurion Mini Buck 6 Pellet, 00 Buckshot 2.2", 10rd box.
5-1554
Your Price: $7.99
QUANTITY PRICE
25+ $7.00
Enter Quantity: (Inventory On Hand: Available)

Product Overview
12 gauge Centurion - NS (Nobel Sport) 2.2 inch Mini Buck shells, 00 Buck, 6 pellet. These Mini-Buck Shells boast a velocity of 1250 FPS while still maintaining a low felt recoil. This distinctive 2.2 inch shell length allows for increased magazine capacity in pump and semi-auto defense shotguns. Come in 10rd boxes. Boxes and shells may be blue Nobel Sport NS loading or Centurion orange/clear loading.

chopinbloc
June 9, 2013, 01:52 PM
You're welcome. It's my pleasure.

Thanks for the link. It looks like the Centurion and Nobel brands are very similar except that the Nobel uses a crimp and the Centurion appears to use a plastic card to top off the shot.

The description states that either may ship.

Fred Fuller
June 9, 2013, 05:37 PM
I tend to be a little leery of roll crimped buckshot. I'd rather have a star crimp - seems to me (impression, not scientific testing) to give more even patterns. Sometimes it seems as if the roll crimp tends to donut more.

chopinbloc
June 10, 2013, 01:03 AM
I'll have to take your word for it. I don't know much at all about scatter guns beyond which end the pellets come out of.

Fred Fuller
June 10, 2013, 11:03 AM
Shotgun patterns, especially with buckshot, often seem to have more to do with magic than with science. There are some things that do seem to work consistently to improve patterns - hard alloy buckshot, plated buckshot, grex or buffering in the shot load, shot cups or collars that protect the shot from contact with the bore, good wad columns that absorb some of the initial shock of firing, a long polished forcing cone, a few points (or more) of choke, etc.

As I said, it's just my impression that roll crimp shells tend to open patterns up more in the middle than do star crimps. I can't prove it, and wouldn't want anyone to believe I had even tried scientifically to do so - I haven't.

But when I buy/order some of these to test myself, it will definitely be the NobelSport version...

chopinbloc
June 10, 2013, 11:41 AM
Awesome. Thanks for filling me in. I can operate my shotgun in such a way as to do a pretty good impression of someone who knows what they're doing but I've got A LOT to learn. I'm more of a rifle guy, myself.

Fred Fuller
June 10, 2013, 12:25 PM
IMHO it's always best to get the mindset and skillset down pat before going overboard on the toolset (hardware) stuff.

But by the same token it's necessary to understand the hardware component with at least a working level of knowledge in order to wring the most from it, or alternatively to be able to put to effective use whatever tools you can find at the time/under the circumstances.

For example, I was sure I had arrived at buckshot Nirvana a while back with my favorite load of Federal LE-127 00 and a CYL bore barrel - which would yield sub-6" (yes, six inch) patterns out to 25 yards. And then the ammo crisis came along, and my pet load disappeared from the marketplace.

Fortunately over the preceding years I had done enough barrel research, and load and patterning tests, to be familiar with the benefits of a MOD choke on most any old non-FliteControl buckshot load.

And, tiring of having choke tubes installed in short shotgun barrels, I had haunted Remington's parts list till I found an 18.5" MOD choked factory barrel with tritium rifle sights, and laid in a couple of them.

So, now I can manage to suit myself with pretty much whatever buckshot I can scrounge out of this currently weird marketplace, only keeping in mind when I have to shift to slugs with the particular load at hand to achieve the range, accuracy and/or penetration I need under the circumstances.

chopinbloc
June 10, 2013, 12:56 PM
Nailed it on the mindset>skillset>toolset. The shotgun isn't my primary defense gun so I have not done a lot of training or research with it. My primary defense gun is a short barreled AR but when we go camping anywhere I expect there could be bears I bring along the Mossberg you saw in the video, loaded with Breneke slugs and Federal Low Recoil #00 (don't know the part number) on the side saddle.

I'm always interested in learning more stuff about guns, though.

Deer_Freak
June 10, 2013, 01:30 PM
My best luck has always been with Winchester Super X 12 ga 3" 00 buck. The 3" Super X load has 15 pellets to make up for what ever I missed in the science department. The 3" Super X load will deliver consistent kills out to 40 yards. Beyond 40 yards with buckshot there is some luck involved. I have killed deer at longer ranges with buckshot but I had a pack of hounds to find the deer. Without a dog to find the deer I would pass at ranges over 40 yards.

In self defense situations the Super X loads are good at 50 yards or further. You don't have to kill the bad guy. You only have to make him stop attacking you.

chopinbloc
June 11, 2013, 02:20 PM
True, but the things you have to do to stop someone have a high probability of eventually causing their death and killing a person ALWAYS stops them.

JShirley
June 11, 2013, 03:07 PM
I think this proves- again- that 00 buck is not a good choice for HD. You have to work to find a .223 round that penetrates over 18", with average penetration around 15".


Here are some results ( http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/self_defense_ammo_faq/DocGKRData/223%20Barrier%20Rounds.htm).

John

chopinbloc
June 12, 2013, 11:21 AM
Agreed. My HD load is PPU 75 gr BTHP. Here it is in gelatin:

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It's important to note, though, that any projectile that is capable of reliably reaching the vital organs of bad guys can penetrate multiple walls:

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I believe Dr. Roberts recommends #1 buck if one insists on using a 12 ga for defense.

RMc
June 12, 2013, 07:02 PM
.09 on the Nobel Mini Buck video: The Nobel 6 pellet 00B load appears to have an overshot card and a fold crimp

RMc
June 12, 2013, 07:23 PM
Shotgun patterns, especially with buckshot, often seem to have more to do with magic than with science. There are some things that do seem to work consistently to improve patterns - hard alloy buckshot, plated buckshot, grex or buffering in the shot load, shot cups or collars that protect the shot from contact with the bore, good wad columns that absorb some of the initial shock of firing, a long polished forcing cone, a few points (or more) of choke, etc.

As I said, it's just my impression that roll crimp shells tend to open patterns up more in the middle than do star crimps. I can't prove it, and wouldn't want anyone to believe I had even tried scientifically to do so - I haven't.

But when I buy/order some of these to test myself, it will definitely be the NobelSport version...
Fred,

Perhaps the reason you see indications of roll crimp buckshot patterns opening more in the middle is due to source and construction of most roll crimp buckshot rounds. Virtually all buckshot rounds of European origin, are roll crimped, have no shot cup, no buffer and use soft lead pellets. In addition many European 00B rounds have .34" diameter pellets for a very tight barrel fit with 3 pellet per layer stacks. Given this stack up of design factors, I suspect the overshot card would contribute very little, if any, to opening the patterns.

Fred Fuller
June 12, 2013, 11:14 PM
Patterning can be a weird thing sometimes.

For instance, I tried my first major pattern tightening experiments with a PatternMaster choke tube (http://www.patternmaster.com/), a number of years back when they were fairly new (late 1990s). The PatternMaster is a 'wad retarding' choke tube, CYL bore with five small blocks left in the machining at the muzzle end to hold the wad back as it passed, thereby stripping it away from the shot as it exited the muzzle.

It worked fine with a conventional wad. Yet when I tried it with the old version of Estate SWAT low recoil 00, it produced patterns a few inches wide and a couple of feet long at 25 yards. That load had a deep, one-piece shot cup/over powder seal that had no 'bellows' section or the like - just a deep shot cup. And apparently it was always tilted just a bit at the muzzle, thus stringing the pattern. And it was pretty consistent in the stringing, though there was no telling which direction it would string - vertical, horizontal or diagonal.

RMc
June 13, 2013, 11:54 PM
Fred,

Interesting that you should mention wad tilt as a pattern factor.

Certainly patterning success can hinge on factors most shooters would overlook.

Consider the conventional wisdom that barrel length has virtually no influence on patterns. Turkey hunters in particular seem to be enamored of 21" to 22" barrels for their heavy shot loads. The problem is that short barrels, heavy loads, and slower burning powder, (in shotshell terms), add up to high muzzle pressure. High barrel exit pressure can distort the gas seal and cause pattern destroying wad tilt.

I have pattern tested loads that were excellent performers in a 26" barrel, yet failed to perform in a 21" barrel on the same shotgun with the same choke tube. The failure took the form of randomly strung shot patterns. The recovered wads told the story. From the short barrel the gas seals resembled uneven reverse mushrooms - causing the wads to tilt. From a barrel just 5 inches, longer the gas seals had a normal appearance and the patterns were tight and centered.

Ralph

JShirley
June 14, 2013, 08:08 AM
It's important to note, though, that any projectile that is capable of reliably reaching the vital organs of bad guys can penetrate multiple walls:


Of course. But it doesn't make sense to me to use a home defense round that can blow through an attacker, and then all the way through a child, when there are many rounds unlikely to go through an attacker, and then even a single wall, while still carrying enough energy to cause serious harm to anyone else. If you use something (like a 50 grain .223 American Eagle HP) that fragments, it's just never going to happen. For home defense, I'll take a round that penetrates only 8" but penetrates SBA over a round that penetrates over 20" but does NOT penetrate SBA every...single...time, unless the home invasion threat is likely to weigh over 400 lbs (bear, African lion, etc).

I believe Dr. Roberts recommends #1 buck if one insists on using a 12 ga for defense.

Makes sense. Using 00 buck, imo, does not. For deer out to 30 meters, 00 is fine. For HD, I believe it is a needless liability.

John

Fred Fuller
June 14, 2013, 10:22 AM
I have pattern tested loads that were excellent performers in a 26" barrel, yet failed to perform in a 21" barrel on the same shotgun with the same choke tube.

Thus the common mantra around here, encouraging shotgunners to pattern test the load they plan to use, in the barrel/choke/etc. they plan to use it in, at the ranges they expect it to cover. There simply is no substitute for patterning with a shotgun...

chopinbloc
June 15, 2013, 02:24 AM
Loads that do not reliably penetrate at least 12" should not be used for defense.

Sox
June 15, 2013, 04:43 PM
This post caught my eye for a couple reasons. It is much more relevant to me now that I have a 3 and 2yr old. Prior to that, my cats were out of the line of fire, now it is a consideration, and gives food for thought.

Secondly, and it is a complex issue, is those 12" standards are really pretty old like the 80's, so 12" is a minimum. I think when you look at some of the big ass perpetrating people out there it gives a bit different perspective.

People on average are 30% bigger (body weight) than in the 80's, as 30% of the population are obese, so it is my argument those 12" minimum should actually be 30% higher or about 15-16" minimum.

I think the post that intrigue me are those from guys that hunt, they have a real world perspective that we don't.

John, I do see your point and it is valid. When I look at a torso on the CT scanner one could argue that 8" would get you where you need to be on a clean frontal shot, even with clothes/jacket.

I do find it frustrating that there seems to be one voice espousing "standards."

Dave

JShirley
June 15, 2013, 11:38 PM
Dave,

I appreciate you taking the time to advance a point while also acknowledging the thought process behind my own differing choices. It's a pleasure to see that so well done ~ kudos.

We all have to decide what's most important to us, in the micro or macrocosm. For myself, I am perfectly willing to accept explosive expansion or fragmentation but potentially less than total penetration for virtually no risk of overpenetration.

It's also true that obesity is on the rise, but (depending on geographic area) individuals likely to break into your home may be considerably smaller than the national average. Many illegal immigrants are much smaller than the usual US citizen.

Personally, while I believe small bird shot is a bad HD choice, if I was defending my home with a shotgun, I would choose a Foster slug (less penetration than 00, at about 18"), or something like BB shot.

John

chopinbloc
June 20, 2013, 10:42 PM
If I understand correctly, the 12" minimum was based on what is required to reliably reach vital organs if one has to take a less than ideal shot (through a limb(s) and/or obstacles) at a large person. In other words, because it already considers a large body, the increasing average girth of Americans is less relevant.

In regards to the over penetration issue, I believe that it's way over stated. It's important to consider that it is extremely unlikely that a stray round hits another person. The odds of that occurring increase with each round fired, though and using ammunition that is less effective means that you may have to fire more rounds. Another thing to consider is that if you are worried that one of your own rounds might hurt a family member, how much more concerned should you be about what an attacker would do to them, should you fail to stop him?

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