Handling the gun while out of holster


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Alexey931
June 13, 2013, 07:58 AM
Hi,

Can't find anything on the subject, probably using wrong terminology. I mean, how to carry a handgun while moving about in a presumably dangerous situation, the gun already in hand.

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JTQ
June 13, 2013, 08:08 AM
This video may help.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jT96jxPBCqo

Sam1911
June 13, 2013, 08:19 AM
It's called "position sul" and is a simple way of keeping the gun protected from grabs, snags, or pointing at friendlies while moving in a potentially dangerous situation.

Very fast back out to a shooting stance, or back in to a muzzle-down safe position.

A video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DtR1bnmGbM

Here's a great thread on that topic over at DefensiveCarry.com: http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/defensive-carry-tactical-training/61344-position-sul.html

Archaic Weapon
June 13, 2013, 01:31 PM
Keep your finger off the trigger. At work, they told use to keep the gun, straightarmed, at waist height, so that when the cops show up, it looks like you have training, and makes you the good guy in those crucial first seconds.

Sam1911
June 13, 2013, 01:35 PM
straightarmed, at waist height, so that when the cops show up, it looks like you have trainingWhat kind of training does that make it look like you have?

I mean to say, who's teaching that position? Seems better than the old Miami Vice routine of running around with it above your head pointed up in the air, but still has shortcomings.

9mmepiphany
June 13, 2013, 07:55 PM
I also used Position Sul for a long time, but it never felt very secure to me. Take a look at this (http://youtu.be/NLMesZVCZdw) explanation from the late Paul Gomez for some options.

I've went to an elevated Position 3 during my last few working years

9mmepiphany
June 13, 2013, 07:57 PM
At work, they told use to keep the gun, straightarmed, at waist height, so that when the cops show up, it looks like you have training, and makes you the good guy in those crucial first seconds.
Maybe I'm not understanding your description of the position either, but it doesn't sound like any position I remember cops being trained to use.

Are you referring to Low Ready?

Sam1911
June 13, 2013, 08:08 PM
The Averted 2 seems quite naturally a progression from Sul, and what one would naturally gravitate toward if you're manipulating objects or people with your support hand while using Sul.

The Averted 3 looks fine, with the caveats that 1) it seems it would be somewhat easy to relax into an unsafe muzzle direction if you needed to work that way for long, and 2) it is a departure from the general tendency to avoid elevating the muzzle above horizontal that most good range practice dictates.

Archaic Weapon
June 13, 2013, 08:09 PM
Low Ready, yes. Description of a technique I've used almost never and never seen through shooting screens is difficult.

9mmepiphany
June 13, 2013, 08:49 PM
The Averted 2 seems quite naturally a progression from Sul, and what one would naturally gravitate toward if you're manipulating objects or people with your support hand while using Sul.
Yes, I use the Averted #2 when moving through people in a crowd. I got to try it with an MP-5 a while ago; works great

The Averted 3 looks fine, with the caveats that 1) it seems it would be somewhat easy to relax into an unsafe muzzle direction if you needed to work that way for long, and 2) it is a departure from the general tendency to avoid elevating the muzzle above horizontal that most good range practice dictates.
Your are correct, it took me a while to get comfortable with it because of the old admonition that a BG could push your arms back into you. The warning only applies, if you don't/can't step back...and keep your hands clasped together. Your point 2) is very much a range protocol, Sul is much better for the range. I had to become much more muzzle aware when working with non-LEO

In Advert 3, the gun is in about the same position your gun would be in when you perform a magazine change

Alexey931
June 14, 2013, 04:33 AM
SUL looks like an acronym; anybody care to expand it?

Tinman357
June 14, 2013, 04:39 AM
Sul.. Averted 3 and 2???? :confused: Wow, no compressed #3. How about the walter stance 47 with an inverted #2.5.

:neener::neener::neener:

dmazur
June 14, 2013, 07:39 AM
Sul is Portuguese for "South" (i.e. down).

pockets
June 14, 2013, 08:29 AM
Sul.. Averted 3 and 2???? Wow, no compressed #3. How about the walter stance 47 with an inverted #2.5.
I prefer 'RWP-16oz' (Reclining With Pint) stance.
And what is this? Now I have to learn Portuguese too?
.

Alexey931
June 14, 2013, 08:30 AM
Sul.. Averted 3 and 2???? Wow, no compressed #3. How about the walter stance 47 with an inverted #2.5.
You've made a point, actually. Those fancy things are possible on the range, but as soon as push comes to shove... In the realm of auditory exclusion and tunnel vision -- one drops everything more complicated than the two-handed grip. Useful rules must be simpler and far more natural than that.

Sav .250
June 14, 2013, 09:08 AM
Trying to get educated after the fact (gun ownership) makes one wonder.

Sam1911
June 14, 2013, 10:46 AM
SUL looks like an acronym; anybody care to expand it?If you watch the Paul Gomez video that 9mmepiphany posted, he explains why the Brazilians started using it, and they called it the simplest thing they could, basically "South" or "down."

Sul.. Averted 3 and 2???? Wow, no compressed #3. How about the walter stance 47 with an inverted #2.5.And what is this? Now I have to learn Portuguese too?Every word comes from somewhere. People from all over the world face the same needs. There's no acceptable reason why only 'mercans get to name stuff. :rolleyes:

And really, is a three letter word too complex for ya? Would you prefer to call it, "that-one-where-you-tilt-the-gun-down-while-bringing-it-close-to-your-chest-and-flatten-the-support-hand-under-the-gun..."? Even the Germans would balk at a noun that long!

You've made a point, actually. Those fancy things are possible on the range, but as soon as push comes to shove... In the realm of auditory exclusion and tunnel vision -- one drops everything more complicated than the two-handed grip. Useful rules must be simpler and far more natural than that.There's nothing terribly fancy, complicated, or unnatural about any of these positions. You'll fight like you train, though with less skill. If you train to retract the gun into one of these safety stances when you aren't aiming it at someone who might need to be shot, you can get into the habit of not endangering others needlessly. If this is your standard practice, you'll find that you do it when you aren't deliberately thinking about it -- like when you're scared, alarmed, deafened, etc.

Pick a safety or "muzzle aversion" posture that seems natural to you, then do it a few thousand times on the range as part of your regular practice, and you'll do it without thinking when you NEED to.

That's the whole point of training. But if you've convinced yourself that you'll "drop everything more complicated than the two-handed grip," why even ask the question?

Sam1911
June 14, 2013, 10:52 AM
Trying to get educated after the fact (gun ownership) makes one wonder.I really don't even know what to say to this.

One should know everything there is to know (or even 1/10th of it?) before one buys a gun?

One should STOP trying to get educated once one owns a gun?

The whole sentiment seems precisely backward! I'd rather train a new gun owner who knows NOTHING -- and knows they know nothing -- than someone who thinks their brand new Glock somehow grants them a PhD in gun handling and gun fighting. Where does one learn if they've got to earn all their wisdom before they own a gun?

Trust me, when someone's been "trained" by Jean-Claude van Damme, Steven Segal, Bruce Willis, Sly Stallone, "Ahnuld," John Wayne, etc., up there on the big screen, it is IMMEDIATELY clear.

JTQ
June 14, 2013, 12:04 PM
Sav .250 wrote,
Trying to get educated after the fact (gun ownership) makes one wonder.
Sam1911 wrote,
I really don't even know what to say to this.

One should know everything there is to know (or even 1/10th of it?) before one buys a gun?

One should STOP trying to get educated once one owns a gun?

Excellent point, Sam1911. I would think it is much easier to learn gun handling skills when you have a gun to train with. Don't Gunsite and Thunder Ranch (and others) make you take their classes with a gun?;)

Here is some stuff from Dave Spaulding. He has a series of "stuff" with Ruger.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oATKlh_UKR4&list=PL2079FFD4A567CD2C

Sam1911
June 14, 2013, 12:34 PM
Spaulding has some good points about gun handling positions. What he doesn't get into there are the details that matter to the folks who came up with Sul, or the various other "muzzle aversion" positions that Paul Gomez showed in 9mmepiphany's video.

That is to say, how to move in and around structures with a gun -- AND with "friendlies" or team mates that you NEVER want to cover with your muzzle. If you watch Spaulding's movements, at no point in his video could you safely stand in front of him. He'd either be pointing at your head, your chest, your stomach, groin, thighs, etc, with every one of his stances.

Sul, the raised "3," or the exaggerated "2," all are intended that you can very deliberately and completely prevent sweeping a person who's very close to you while you have your gun drawn. If you move down a hall behind a LEO team partner, or your wife or child who you're trying to shepard to safety, and you use Spaulding's "3rd Eye" position, one trip or flinch would put a bullet right through their back.




...

A note on the terms: We keep saying "2" and "3" and that seems to be confusing folks. What we're doing here is referencing the steps of the best-practice "4-count" draw stroke.

Watch Mr. Gomez explain again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NKngkVXMGg You can start watching around 3:00 if you don't need the historic context.

Basically a best, fastest, most secure gunfighting draw is broken down into 4 steps:
1) Establish a firing grip on the gun, in the holster.

2) Draw the gun straight up the side of the chest, while rotating it 90 deg. to point at the target. It stops beside the pectoral muscle, but not much forward of the front of the chest. From here you can fire from a solid "retention" position, including using the support hand to guard or fend off an attacker's advance and blows -- using your body index to roughly aim -- or you can continue to ...

3) Gun is moved to the body centerline and support hand establishes grip on the gun as well. Still held horizontal, pointed at target. Gun may be fired from this position or continue to ...

4) Extension to normal firing position. Gun fires as it reaches your comfortable extension point.

(Developing in yourself the universal use of the 4-count draw stroke will make you faster on target and much more consistent, as well as building the fundamentals of a sound fighting-with-a-gun paradigm.)

So these guard, or "muzzle aversion" positions are all variations on the 2nd or 3rd point of the normal draw stroke.

"Sul" is just the 3-count position flattened against the chest to conserve room and to make the muzzle point at the floor, not your buddy's back, butt, or thighs.

Averted 3, or raised 3, is just that same 3rd count modified to hold the angle of the gun above most likely danger areas.

Averted 2 is simply the 2-count of the draw, but with the elbow lifted to rotate the muzzle back toward the holster. Said another way, Averted 2 is just stopping the normal draw stroke a split second before you rotate the gun toward the target -- or returning to that position from extension later on.

I certainly understand that jargon can get folks confused but if we didn't choose a few terms to use for some of the common principles, it would lead to terrible complexity as we have to explain each detail every time we want to illustrate a point.

CPLofMARINES
June 14, 2013, 12:51 PM
^^ Excellent points, one should always continue to
Learn and train !

Semper Fi

9mmepiphany
June 14, 2013, 01:30 PM
Sul.. Averted 3 and 2???? :confused: Wow, no compressed #3.
As Sam1911 was very clear in explaining, these terms are used to make it easier (fewer words) to explain and avoid confusion. Note how much easier it was to understand post #9 than post #4...granted, you do need a passing familiarity with the terms.

But if you read terms that you are unfamiliar with, you can always ask for clarification...after all, this site is to introduce folks to the shooting community

BTW: There is a compressed #3, but it tends to lead to malfunctions with semi-autos...it is a left over from the days when revolvers were more common

You've made a point, actually. Those fancy things are possible on the range, but as soon as push comes to shove... In the realm of auditory exclusion and tunnel vision -- one drops everything more complicated than the two-handed grip. Useful rules must be simpler and far more natural than that.
Actually he hasn't. What you are buying into is mental self limitation of physical performance.

Everything is "fancy" when you first learn it, practicing it is what makes it simpler (reactionary). If you take shortcuts by introducing speed (because we all know you need speed) before you have the motions down (because what you are doing is close enough), you presentation will be a lot less efficient (slower, fumbled). If you expect that you won't be able to perform them, you likely won't. But don't limit other people by telling them that they can't.

Don't Gunsite and Thunder Ranch (and others) make you take their classes with a gun?
Actually their business model is to offer rental guns for their classes...for folks who don't have a suitable gun or don't care to bring one.

I've worked with clients who did not own a handgun. They wanted to learn what it was like before committing to a purchase...I usually provide a selection of different platforms. The benefit to them is that they have a better understanding of handgun fit before selecting their first gun

one should always continue to Learn and train !
This is key and is usually advocated by all the good trainers. Shooting technique is a progression (journey) and not a level you reach (goal). You should always be trying to improve.

I have changed my grip twice in the last couple of years and have tried more than a few different techniques to improve my shooting. I worked with a 4 time Bianchi Cup winner who just tweaked his grip again to eek out that last fraction of an inch at 50 yards.

I took a class recently that pushed me over a longstanding barrier. I just couldn't react to a turning target, move, draw and accurately place a shot on target in a second. My techniques just weren't holding up at speed. After a bit of tweaking, I was more accurate and able to place two shots on target in .7 sec

It is just a matter of not accepting limitations and working on technique

Alexey931
June 14, 2013, 02:14 PM
That's the whole point of training. But if you've convinced yourself that you'll "drop everything more complicated than the two-handed grip," why even ask the question?
It isn't easy to convince oneself of any such less than obvious thing. But if there's a grain of truth in the 'stressfire shooting' theory, one can easily make a slip in a once-in-a-lifetime situation where it's one slip too many. Due to [extensive] misguided training.

Sam1911
June 14, 2013, 02:26 PM
Are you saying that training can CAUSE mistakes? What alternative do you propose? And, again, why ask the original question at all, if that's your belief?

Of course you can make a slip (mistake). Training is designed to produce worn-in paths of action that reduce how much brain power you have to apply to solving the more mundane, "process" parts of the problem you face. The less you have to think about the mechanics of what you're doing, the more brain power you can apply to getting yourself out of harm's way.

Am I misunderstanding what you're saying?

Alexey931
June 14, 2013, 03:30 PM
Are you saying that training can CAUSE mistakes? What alternative do you propose? And, again, why ask the original question at all, if that's your belief?
Yes, it can. I'm questioning fine points, not general principles, though. There's no substitute for training, IMHO: let me make that clear. Unfortunately, a particular school can be less than brutally relevant. Take a look at the Olympic style shooting: one hundred years of inbreeding made it incredibly refined -- and incredibly irrelevant.

So practical shooting had to emerge to take care of excessive refinement.

9mmepiphany
June 14, 2013, 04:14 PM
Take a look at the Olympic style shooting: one hundred years of inbreeding made it incredibly refined -- and incredibly irrelevant.

So practical shooting had to emerge to take care of excessive refinement.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but that is often the excuse used by folks to justify not training at all. Granted it isn't as much fun learning to be accurate as it is learning to shoot faster, but putting a lot of rounds downrange at high speed is really the definition of Spray and Pray

One of the finest USPSA/IPSC shooters that I know will tell you that the basis of his ability is from a book Competitive Shooting (Olympic) by A.A. Yur'yev. Because the ability to shoot quickly and accurately is to compress the time between perception of the sights being align and the press of the trigger...all accuracy is dependent on the trigger press

An accurate shooter can easily learn to shoot faster, it is much harder for a fast shooter to learn to be more accurate

Sam1911
June 14, 2013, 06:18 PM
I'm questioning fine points, not general principles, though.Are you questioning any fine points presented HERE, in this thread? I'm still confused as to whether you're objecting to something said or just making a general point not directly applicable to what we're discussing.

9mmepiphany
June 14, 2013, 07:23 PM
It isn't easy to convince oneself of any such less than obvious thing.
I've read this over several times and still can't make sense of it...would you either punctuate it or clarify what you intend it to mean?

I'm also not clear what your reference to stressfire shooting meant.

If you are referring to Massad Ayoob's writings in his StressFire books, he believes the same things about training that Sam1911 and I do

orionengnr
June 14, 2013, 10:13 PM
Trying to get educated after the fact (gun ownership) makes one wonder.
So...once you bought your first car (presumably at age 16/17), did you stop learning?

If I had stopped learning when I acquired my first motorcycle (an old POS I got for free at age 15) I would be dead many times over. I have been riding for 40+ years, and today ride every day (I don't own a car or truck). I am still learning. I am also still alive...so far.

The day I think I know it all may be my last day on this Earth.

Firearms ownership (especially if you carry every day) is similar...although you will not necessarily have a life-or-death test every day of your gun-owning life.

Nonetheless, the consequences of each are equally permanent.

Alexey931
June 15, 2013, 05:05 AM
An accurate shooter can easily learn to shoot faster, it is much harder for a fast shooter to learn to be more accurate
How very true. I've got some precision shooting history, too, in case nobody noticed.
If you are referring to Massad Ayoob's writings in his StressFire books, he believes the same things about training that Sam1911 and I do
I can't say I believe something entirely different.
Are you questioning any fine points presented HERE, in this thread?
No, I am not. It's all about doing it just right. No offence of slight has ever been intended.

beatledog7
June 15, 2013, 11:14 AM
Placing too high a dependence on "I've had training" can make one believe that he is now incapable of making a mistake. It can also make one believe that the training one got was the end all and be all of firearms training. Both are bad.

Training is always ongoing, and just about everything you ever get taught about using firearms by one instructor is going to be taught differently by another. Neither approach automatically invalidates the other.

Posing intended danger to a specific other is what defensive firearms use is all about. One has to find what works for him while posing no unintended danger to unspecified others. Whatever that is for a given person is what that person should do.

thorazine
June 16, 2013, 06:28 PM
What was the silly position called from many years ago where you would point the firearm up in the air with it close to your head?

9mmepiphany
June 16, 2013, 06:50 PM
It was called the Angel hold/stance from the show Charlie's Angels...which is funny, because James Bond always did that in the promo posters

BCRider
June 19, 2013, 05:43 PM
A possibly amusing little aside to this thread.

When I'm at an IPSC meet and we're all walking around "air gunning" to figure out round counts and mag switch points if someone walks in front of my finger I more often than not raise it so I won't "sweep" them with my finger nail :D Silly I know, but I guess it's better to have such a reaction ingrained than the other way around.

I did notice that when I do this I pull back in and raise my finger gun up to the averted 3 position if it matters... :D

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