1st outing with M&P9...issues?


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Babarsac
June 13, 2013, 05:41 PM
Took my M&P 9mm to the range to give it a whirl. I started my range session off with my Buckmark, K-22, and K-38. I was hitting bullseyes, feeling good, and decided to try the M&P.

I set a target at 10 yards and was hitting 6-8 inches low

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb134/babarsac/20130612_185245_zpsc281cabd.jpg (http://s211.photobucket.com/user/babarsac/media/20130612_185245_zpsc281cabd.jpg.html)

After a few more magzines I was able to bring the rounds slightly higher but not by much.

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb134/babarsac/20130612_185252_zps9da7bc3c.jpg (http://s211.photobucket.com/user/babarsac/media/20130612_185252_zps9da7bc3c.jpg.html)

First off more practice is definitely needed but I'm wondering how to approach it. Of the following sight image chart I was using style #3.

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb134/babarsac/sightimages_zps4c192804.jpg (http://s211.photobucket.com/user/babarsac/media/sightimages_zps4c192804.jpg.html)

Should I be using a different sight picture or is there something else that can be recommended?

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allaroundhunter
June 13, 2013, 05:43 PM
The M&P uses the 2nd sight picture. How much experience do you have shooting centerfire handguns? I would guess that you are anticipating the shot and/or slapping the trigger.

Babarsac
June 13, 2013, 05:50 PM
Most of my centerfire shooting is with revolvers and recently the majority of my semi-auto action has been rimfire. By switching to sight picture #2 wouldn't the point of impact fall even lower?

allaroundhunter
June 13, 2013, 05:55 PM
Yes, that would happen if you continue to shoot with the same mechanics as you were previously using. The problem is not with the gun, it is shooter error. You cannot correct for shooting low by just holding higher when the gun is doing its part. (well, you can, but that is not how to fix this problem)

The gun is capable of much more than that, so it is a matter of figuring out just what you are doing wrong in order to get your groups tighter and in the right location.

Potatohead
June 13, 2013, 06:04 PM
yea but a pistols sights are not always zeroed perfectly, out of the box, correct?

ku4hx
June 13, 2013, 06:17 PM
Move up to about 3 yards. Once you gain confidence and expertise, begin to move back in small increments. Maybe a couple of yards at a time.

Water-Man
June 13, 2013, 06:30 PM
Get used to concentrating on the front sight rather than the target and stop looking at the holes each time you fire.

allaroundhunter
June 13, 2013, 07:20 PM
yea but a pistols sights are not always zeroed perfectly, out of the box, correct?

They are usually pretty dang close, and when they are off, they are never that far off (especially a gun from a larger manufacturer). If a gun is 'off' from the factory it will be by at most a couple inches, not 6-8.

If a group is that big, then there is no way that I will say that the gun is having problems.

If someone thinks that a handgun is shooting poorly from the factory, before doing anything, have an experienced pistol shooter have a go with it.

9mmepiphany
June 13, 2013, 07:24 PM
yea but a pistols sights are not always zeroed perfectly, out of the box, correct?
Perfectly, no

Good enough, usually. I've shot a lot of different M&P9s and usually, out of the box, elevation has been pretty close while I've see the rear sights off a bit to the left

If the OP were using perfect technique and the gun was shooting that far below his POA, it still wouldn't be due to the sights.

We might have a different opinion, if his shots at 10 yards was closer to 1"...certainly under 2"

9mmepiphany
June 13, 2013, 07:31 PM
Should I be using a different sight picture or is there something else that can be recommended?
Every M&P9 I've shot has hit accurately with sight picture #2

A few things to try if you can't get a more experienced shooter to try the gun.

1. Move the target in to 3-5 yards
2. Shoot off a rest
3. Shoot at a smaller target...like a 2" square Post-it

Are you by chance left handed?

Wahoo95
June 13, 2013, 07:37 PM
I've never found an M&P that sighted in to use a 6 o'clock hold. They're Combat Sighted like #3 which is POA/POI. Google it to see for yourself. Shoot with #2 and you will continue to be low.

ifit
June 13, 2013, 07:46 PM
a friend also first time out with his m&p, could not hit his target worth crap. he thought the gun was defective, so I had a go at it, and to be honest one of the worst trigger pulls outa the box from a polymer pistol. if you notice your shots are hittin low=heavy trigger. try standing 5' from target and put a 6 oclock hold on the x target and shoot 5 rounds. don't worry about where your hitting...just concentrate on the x, then take couple step back and repeat...so and so on, and see the groupinng

Potatohead
June 13, 2013, 08:00 PM
thx 9mm and Allaround.

Jack19
June 13, 2013, 08:03 PM
http://www.gunlink.info/targets/PistolChartR1S.pdf

9mmepiphany
June 13, 2013, 08:35 PM
http://www.gunlink.info/targets/PistolChartR1S.pdf
I cringed with the suspicion that this link would lead to this flawed chart, that just won't go away. This has been around so long that is has become legend, but with today's more common two-handed techniques, it has become irrelevant as an aid in correcting handgun shooting errors.

As titled at the top of the image, this diagnostic chart is for a shooter holding his gun in his Right hand...yes, for one handed shooting. Using two hands to hold your handgun changes the dynamics of forces applied to the gun influencing the strike of the bullets on the target

Byrd666
June 13, 2013, 09:05 PM
Funny, the only thing I use the rear sights on my M&P9c for is to rack the slide. Being a one handed shooter it comes in real handy like that. :-)

Have you tried strictly focusing on just the front sight and letting rear sight blur or disappear from your sight line/sight picture? Even shooting only one handed, my groupings at 10+- yards are well within a 2" radius. Normally within 1" if I really concentrate. And at about 50 yards they are normally within the paper plate using only my front sight. Just a thought.

Or as others have said, try using a rest to align, or make sure your sights are straight.

Babarsac
June 13, 2013, 09:13 PM
Thanks for suggestions all. I'll try a couple of the things recommended above in my next range trip.

FYI I'm left handed and left eye dominant, however I prefer to hold handguns with my right hand. The only time I shoot left handed is with long guns.

allaroundhunter
June 13, 2013, 09:15 PM
FYI I'm left handed and left eye dominant, however I prefer to hold handguns with my right hand. The only time I shoot left handed is with long guns.

This could be throwing your grip for a loop. If you do everything with your left hand, then fine motor control is probably better with it. Yes, you can develop it with your right hand, but I would bet that your trigger control is much better shooting left handed.

Babarsac
June 13, 2013, 09:26 PM
Well...I don't do everything left handed.

Left:
-Write
-Use fork
-Shoot long guns

Right:
-Throw a ball
-Use scissors
-Shoot handguns

I think I'm stuck somewhere in the middle :confused:

Fremmer
June 13, 2013, 09:36 PM
I had to work at using the tip of my trigger finger to pull the trigger straight back when I tried the M&P. And like someone else mentioned, make sure you aren't lowering the gun to look at the target immediately after you fire.

Potatohead
June 13, 2013, 09:41 PM
I cringed with the suspicion that this link would lead to this flawed chart

Hey 9, is their a chart you know of for two-handed (for a right-hander) shooting?

allaroundhunter
June 13, 2013, 09:42 PM
Well...I don't do everything left handed.

Left:
-Write
-Use fork
-Shoot long guns

Right:
-Throw a ball
-Use scissors
-Shoot handguns

I think I'm stuck somewhere in the middle

You've got the same problems that my younger brother does. In that case, you are borderline ambidextrous and a little more practice should have you shooting better.

Potatohead
June 13, 2013, 09:43 PM
Geez Bab, you're all screwed up! Kidding.

jon_in_wv
June 13, 2013, 11:07 PM
I've never found an M&P that sighted in to use a 6 o'clock hold. They're Combat Sighted like #3 which is POA/POI. Google it to see for yourself. Shoot with #2 and you will continue to be low.

Not any of the M&Ps I own or have shot. #2 is the correct sight picture for them. #3 would be high. You align the sights, not the dots. I would suspect he is anticipating the recoil and/or looking over the sights.

9mmepiphany
June 13, 2013, 11:08 PM
Hey 9, is their a chart you know of for two-handed (for a right-hander) shooting?
Not that I know of. I tried to come up with one once, but it was harder than it looked to shoot with improper technique...I'll try again some day.

You have to understand that differing grip styles/geometries, in a two handed hold/grip, have differing effects. If you use a neutral, enveloping hold with a perfect trigger press, everything will be about pressure you introduce to upset that neutrality.

However, ultimate accuracy, will always come down to trigger management

climbnjump
June 13, 2013, 11:38 PM
I've never found an M&P that sighted in to use a 6 o'clock hold. They're Combat Sighted like #3 which is POA/POI. Google it to see for yourself. Shoot with #2 and you will continue to be low.

Not any of the M&Ps I own or have shot. #2 is the correct sight picture for them. #3 would be high. You align the sights, not the dots. I would suspect he is anticipating the recoil and/or looking over the sights.

I have experience with more than a dozen M&P pistols from the Shield, compact, full size, PRO and C.O.R.E. I've always used #3 for best results. I'm not arguing against the folks who say the gun is set up for #2, but just that #3 is what works for me.

On one M&P 9mm Pro, the fiber optic rod was broken and missing from the front sight. This, of course, allows one to see THROUGH the front sight. At ten yards, with a 1" square which you can see through that open front sight hole, my shots landed right on the square when concentrating on that "perfect trigger press".

breakingcontact
June 14, 2013, 12:12 AM
I've got to say since you aren't grouping it is how you're shooting. Revolvers you shot double or single action? That M&P trigger will get better with use.

powder
June 14, 2013, 01:32 AM
Had 5 M&Ps. Sold em.

Looks like you need to adjust sights or use 12 oclock hold.

TimboKhan
June 14, 2013, 01:38 AM
if you notice your shots are hittin low=heavy trigger.

Not necessarily, I don't think. To be perfectly honest, I don't know enough about this to make a definitive statement, but I have shot some heavy triggers and done just fine. My groups are larger for sure, but they aren't any lower. Maybe I am just not wrapping my head around this, but I can't see where low shots would always equal a heavy trigger.

allaroundhunter
June 14, 2013, 01:59 AM
Had 5 M&Ps. Sold em.

Looks like you need to adjust sights or use 12 oclock hold.

The sights don't adjust that much, nor should they have to. He just needs to learn how to properly shoot the gun.

And in my experience a heavy trigger usually causes the shooter to pull left or right more often than it causes a shooter to push the shot downwards. M&Ps don't have a heavy trigger, so I wouldn't blame it.... To be honest, I think way too many people are way too quick to blame the gun (not just in this situation).

breakingcontact
June 14, 2013, 09:29 AM
Have you tried dry firing to see if your gun is jumping as you squeeze the trigger? I just had a thread on this. I hadn't shot in about 4 months I was grouping nicely but all low and left. At the range I was 100% sure it was the new sights I put on the gun. I got home and did some dry firing and sure enough I was pulling left and down. Dry fire and see what it shows you. M&P triggers aren't great but do get better with use.

rvanpelt
June 14, 2013, 10:24 AM
Breakingcontract, I agree the dry firing can really help. I traded for a used Smith and Wesson SW40VE at a gun show, which has a very heavy trigger. I noticed that the rear sight had been move all the way to the right. After shooting and finding my groups went way right. I soon found out that previous owner, probably right handed and was pulling his shots way left and probably low, a severe flinch. I did a lot of dry firing and found that I could move the sight back to the left to the middle and have good groups nearer to the bull. I have become familiar to the hard pull and decided not to do the spring modification and concentrate on the hard pull. many owners of these guns say they ease up and become smoother over time. I really like this gun's reliability, ease of take down and fit to my hand and remember every gun shoots different, everyone's eyes see things differently too. I'm left eye dominant and right handed which caused difficulties as a youngster learning to shoot rifles.
I hope this helps.
Rod

mgmorden
June 14, 2013, 11:02 AM
I use sight picture #2, but my M&P hits low with 115gr ammo. Shooting 147gr its much closer (actually shoots just a tad high). You might try a heavier bullet weight and see if it makes a difference.

breakingcontact
June 14, 2013, 11:26 AM
but my M&P hits low with 115gr ammo

Another excellent point. I prefer to shoot 124gr Lawman FMJ but have been shooting 115gr Blazer Brass. Ammo can definitely shoot differently.

shooter60
June 14, 2013, 10:06 PM
I have 4 M&P's took me a little while to get use to them put APEX FSS trigger in all them and that helped me a bunch

Jack19
June 16, 2013, 01:32 PM
I guess I'd have to ask, how does a two hand hold prevent you from jerking the trigger? Or exhibiting any of the other bad habits?

I would say the addition of a second hand would not eliminate the effects of bad habits on a one hand shot, but it might reduce their effect.

Or, is the entire premise of the chart incorrect?

9mmepiphany
June 16, 2013, 03:10 PM
I guess I'd have to ask, how does a two hand hold prevent you from jerking the trigger? Or exhibiting any of the other bad habits?

I would say the addition of a second hand would not eliminate the effects of bad habits on a one hand shot, but it might reduce their effect.

Or, is the entire premise of the chart incorrect?
It doesn't prevent you from continuing whatever bad techniques you've developed, however it changes the results on the target due to its masking effects of differing force vectors...much as a 1911's short trigger press will mask a host of bad techniques.

An example is that a good two handed grip, moots the effect of too much or too little finger on trigger

Jack19
June 16, 2013, 10:22 PM
So, if the bad behaviors are continued, how are they, then, not apparent on the target? Flinching doesn't stop because of a grip.

A two hand grip, obviously, does not correct poor shooting technique (or there would be a lot more good shooters at both my local and private range, lol.)

I would suggest that poor shooting skills continue no matter how many hands hold the weapon and that the validity of the chart, if indeed it is accurate for a one hand hold, cannot be discounted simply because a second hand is added to the grip.

The bad technique continues.

So, the question becomes, to what extent does a second hand, if it does at all, effect the impact of rounds on the target?

allaroundhunter
June 16, 2013, 10:38 PM
Jack, a 2 handed grip doesn't cure any of the problems, but it can mask them. It can also cause two people to miss a target in different directions even if they are making the same mistake simply because they are gripping the gun with different pressures in each hand.

And yes, the chart is invalid when a shooter is using a two handed grip. But if 9mmepiphany's explanation didn't make that clear enough, there is nothing more that I can add. The amount that it affects a bullet's impact on a target depends on the shooter.

9mmepiphany
June 17, 2013, 12:15 AM
So, if the bad behaviors are continued, how are they, then, not apparent on the target?
They are, just not in the dispersion illustrated in that chart

Flinching doesn't stop because of a grip.

A two hand grip, obviously, does not correct poor shooting technique (or there would be a lot more good shooters at both my local and private range, lol.)
That chart isn't meant to cure bad technique, it is meant to help pinpoint which part of your technique is flawed.

When the shooter is using two hands, the POI will differ from that of when they are using one hand. I'm surprised this wouldn't be obvious.

So, the question becomes, to what extent does a second hand, if it does at all, effect the impact of rounds on the target?
So you believe that the impact and muzzle rise of a handgun held in two hands will be the same as when held in one?

If that is truly your belief, I'm at a loss as to how to explain how the chart is flawed. Folks cling to the chart, because it gives them a rubric to cling onto when they don't have enough understand of how different pressure vectors affect POI and don't understand how the hands vary these vectors.

The reason that a chart doesn't exist for two handed shooting is because folks can't agree on a standard grip to use when shooting. Not only can they not agree on how pressure should be applied, they can't even agree how the thumbs should interact with each other...each of the different placement affect how the gun interacts with the remainder rest of their hands

The only two handed hold to which that chart is applicable is the Tea Cup or Cup-n-Saucer gripping technique...because it is the one in which the support hand offers the least support/influence/help

Potatohead
June 17, 2013, 02:50 PM
What do you guys mean by a heavy trigger. Pulling trigger to hard?

allaroundhunter
June 17, 2013, 03:23 PM
What do you guys mean by a heavy trigger. Pulling trigger to hard?

No, a heavy trigger is referencing the trigger pull weight. It has no meaning as to how the trigger is pulled.

MK11
June 17, 2013, 04:11 PM
My M&P has a definite preference for 147 grain over 115 and 124--but not at 10 yards. They all shoot the same that close.

The big knock on the full-size M&P 9 is terrible accuracy due to poor lock-up, but that usually doesn't surface until you get out to 25 yards or farther (and it doesn't effect every M&P or even most M&P 9s, either).

I'd say its either anticipating recoil or the trigger with its weird crunch at the end. I've blown many a shot because of that.

Jack19
June 17, 2013, 04:18 PM
So you believe that the impact and muzzle rise of a handgun held in two hands will be the same as when held in one?

If that is truly your belief, I'm at a loss as to how to explain how the chart is flawed. Folks cling to the chart, because it gives them a rubric to cling onto when they don't have enough understand of how different pressure vectors affect POI and don't understand how the hands vary these vectors.

No, didn't say that. Just trying to understand your point.

What I'm hearing you say, however, is that even when not understanding the dynamics of a two hand grip, the chart must be completely invalid when used that way.

With that I do disagree.

wally
June 17, 2013, 04:30 PM
The big knock on the full-size M&P 9 is terrible accuracy due to poor lock-up, but that usually doesn't surface until you get out to 25 yards or farther

Man, the first time out with my M&P40C I thought I'd got a real lemon and was cussin' myself for putting on the Trijicon RMR without having fired it first. But the next few times out its shooting tightened right up. I don't attribute any of it to me as my M&P40 has been accurate from day one and I regularly shoot smaller and as powerful pistols like the Kahr PM40.

So it may not be all the shooter, if his M&P was like mine it may shoot up to his abilities after a few more outings. After some "shiny" spots developed on the barrel lug/cam and its engagement surface in the frame, and on top of the barrel mine has been a great shooter.

9mmepiphany
June 17, 2013, 05:46 PM
The big knock on the full-size M&P 9 is terrible accuracy due to poor lock-up, but that usually doesn't surface until you get out to 25 yards or farther (and it doesn't effect every M&P or even most M&P 9s, either).
Not so much the lock up as the unlocking...it was unlocking too soon in the cycle. Apex Tactical did some development work with custom barrels and slowing down when it unlocked. The Bar-Sto barrels have been promised soon

Early M&P9 barrels were not as well fitted as the M&P40 ones...this has improved over time.

9mmepiphany
June 17, 2013, 05:56 PM
What I'm hearing you say, however, is that even when not understanding the dynamics of a two hand grip, the chart must be completely invalid when used that way.
I would think that if you don't understand the dynamics of a two handed grip, the chart would be useless anyway.

Understanding the dynamics of the two handed grip is the basis of my stating that the chart is near useless...nothing is completely invalid.

You can test this yourself. Take a good two handed Isosceles grip on your gun and fire 3 shots using too much finger on the trigger; then fire 3 shots using just the tip of your finger. The placement of the shots on your resulting target will not mirror the respective segments of the chart.

Remember that this isn't a correction chart, but a diagnostic chart. If the bullet strikes are different from the marked segments when using the called out techniques...it has, by definition, been invalidated

gym
June 17, 2013, 07:30 PM
Is it a shield or a 9c? if it's a shield the chances are the front sight is off. Mine was. Where my 9c was right on the money. The Shield was Visiblly off, and needed to be really hit with a drift punch, if you find that it's the gun and not you, have a gunsmith do it, as you can break the sight right off. I did not, but realised that I was hitting it way too hard and it still did not move.
I first put tape on both the punch and the sight, so as not to mark either. If you don't have experience doing this let someone who does handle it.

9mmepiphany
June 17, 2013, 09:25 PM
have a gunsmith do it, as you can break the sight right off. I did not, but realised that I was hitting it way too hard and it still did not move.

If you don't have experience doing this let someone who does handle it.
I can't second this advice enough. M&P front sights are notoriously tight. When I replaced the sight sight on my M&P, the rear sight was pretty easy but the front just didn't want to move at all.

I had a gunsmith do it for me and I related that it really takes a good bench vice, a fitted punch, a good hammer and some gusto to remove their front sights.

If you just need some windage adjustment, I'd highly recommend shifting the rear sight

Jack19
June 18, 2013, 06:52 PM
I would think that if you don't understand the dynamics of a two handed grip, the chart would be useless anyway.

Oh, I do. I actually understand the physics, and the ergonomics. I'm just interested in the reasoning sans the math.

And if nothing is completely invalid, then.......:D

It's just got me thinking that there should be some quantifiable data somewhere...hmm.....maybe that's why they call it an art.

Thanks for the chat, good food for thought.

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