Hassle at WalMart


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R.H. Lee
March 18, 2004, 10:41 PM
A buddy of mine bought 5 boxes WWB .45 ACP. Had to wait in line about 30 minutes because the untrained dufus at the counter didn't know how to work the register, or sell a fishing license, etc.

So my buddy gets home and finds 4 boxes of .45 and one box of .40 S&W.
(He doesn't own a .40). A week later, he took the .40 S&W back to WalMart to trade it for a box of .45-that's when the trouble started.

The nice little old lady at the door insisted he leave the box of .40 at the customer counter and go back to sporting goods and get the box of .45.
OK (same dufus at sporting goods, btw). Customer counter refuses to exchange, chanting mantra of "can't return 'bullets' violation of federal law". Buddy says, "I paid for .45 and got .40-here's the receipt." "Violation of federal law".
OK. Buddy says call manager. Manager on phone chants mantra "Violation..........".

Buddy says, ok, picks up box of .45, puts it in bag with receipt, leaves .40.

Customer service says "that's not yours". Buddy says "It is now" and walks out of store with bag, receipt and box of .45.

Customer service chick follows buddy out to parking lot, tries to take license plate number. No license plate on car because it's new. Customer service tries to read registration sticker in windshield. Wrote down some numbers and says she's calling the cops.

"Violation of federal law", 'ya know.

Who violated federal law, my buddy or WalMart?

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esheato
March 18, 2004, 10:48 PM
Regardless of federal law, your buddy shoplifted. I know that's not the answer you wanted to hear, but it's the truth.

If he's a shooter, he knows other shooters....trade it for a box of ammo he does want. Possibly it was a hint from God that he needs a .40.

Ed

EDIT: It most definitely IS shoplifting if he reached over the counter and grabbed what he wanted and left. Yes he paid for it, but he should have been more polite and went to the returns department and asked to be credited for the difference between .40 and .45 ammo then traded it off or give it away....you might make someone's day.

Zak Smith
March 18, 2004, 10:50 PM
If the receipt says .45 and he paid for it, it ain't shoplifting.

-z

Jim K
March 18, 2004, 10:52 PM
I must really be out to lunch. Can someone please explain why exchanging a box of cartridges is against federal law and if so, what law? Or is this something Wally World made up?

Jim

Pendragon
March 18, 2004, 10:57 PM
Its not against the law, but it may present certain liability issues if someone spikes the bullets and they blow up.

This exact thing happened to me - I got home with a box of .40 instead of .45 - but I did not figure it out for several weeks, then I called and it sounded like too much hassle for $10

The violation thing is probably just the easiest thing to tell the people who work there so they won't do it. Having them engage their minds and take things on a case by case basis is just too scary.

I figured thats just what I get for trusting and not verifying.

bamf
March 18, 2004, 10:59 PM
I know Walmart's policy is not to accept returns on ammo after a 24hr period, I've personally returned ammo the same day when I saw I picked up some 20ga instead of 12ga ammo.

Whether it's "Federal law" I have no idea, but is it really worth it to possibly get in trouble and having a confrontation for a measely 15 bucks?

azrael
March 18, 2004, 10:59 PM
Jim,
From what I understand it is more of a insurance thing than law...

If his reciept says .45 then it wasnt shoplifting...he mearly got what he paid for...

next time check your ammo boxes...I have gotten .380 instead of 9mm and .40 instead of .45...

gbelleh
March 18, 2004, 11:00 PM
WalMart is strict about returning ammo, so are other sporting goods stores. That's why it's always good to double check the caliber, weight, etc. before paying.

At Gander Mountain, the clerks have usually asked me to check the boxes to make sure they are what I want because there are no returns.

I agree, your buddy should've traded with another shooter.

P95Carry
March 18, 2004, 11:13 PM
My local Wally World has removed the ''no exchange of ammo after 24 hours'' and put up a notice which now says .. in effect .... ''all purchases of firearms or ammo are final!!''

So - strikes me it pays to check - and double check - what you have that day whilst there ... but as for ''federal'' violation .. hardly!!

Wally violation perhaps!:rolleyes:

R.H. Lee
March 18, 2004, 11:16 PM
My buddy is even-tempered and not inclined to do impetuous things. He can be stubborn, though. During the conversation with customer service, he suggested that they destroy the box of .40, and give him a credit for it against the .45. The response was the same........'violation of federal law'...

I think he just got frustrated :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
with the mindlessness, decided he's paid for .45 and he was gonna have .45.

In hindsight, he wishes he would have just sucked it down and left the store with the .40

It does not seem like good policy for the store to send a skinny 90 lb chick to follow some guy out into the parking lot. My buddy could have been a meth'ed up psycho for all they knew.

Josey
March 18, 2004, 11:19 PM
Civil. Not criminal. The video will show your friend grabbing and running. The video will show the CSR in hot pursuit. The video will show the CSR conronting your friend. Your friend will drive off in their video. I hope that is ALL the video will show. If your friend was in physical contact with a CSR, felony charges are possible. Robbery is the charge. Method is strong arm. Criminal assault and battery charges are possible. A resisting arrest charge is possible. Tampering with evidence, fleeing and escape from custody are even possible. These are all state charges. The Wal-Mart policy is prominently posted about returns of ammunition must be within 24 hours. Your friend could now be a wanted felon with warrants outstanding. He could be lucky but, I would bet on the former. The best thing to do is NEVER visit that Wal-Mart again. He was on video.

Standing Wolf
March 18, 2004, 11:24 PM
Wal Mart is my shopping destination of last choice: @#$%^&! service, plus communist Chinese junk.

BHPshooter
March 18, 2004, 11:24 PM
"Violation of federal law".

That's their favorite excuse. My little brother bought a computer game that was online-only. The only computer with the hardware to run it isn't connected to the internet (not to mention the $30 a month for some "subscription").

It took us all of 20 minutes to realize that it didn't work, and we were right back there with receipt in hand.

The old battleaxe at the customer service counter (who interestingly enough always has her nametag on backwards so you can't see her name) wouldn't even give us the time of day, and all she would say was "It's a violation of federal copyright law," which is bull????. It's not a violation of ANY law. If it was, then how come I've been able to take back CDs and Movies before?

I stormed out pissed. I came back the next morning and talked to someone there about my age (20) and she gave my brother back his $55 dollars. To this day, the only thing I'll buy from them is WWB value pack, and only because no one else sells cheap brass-cased ammo. If I find something cheaper, I'll never go back again, and I mean it. :fire:

Basically, Wal-Mart isn't worth the trouble. They don't care about you or what you bought, they only care about money. Go somewhere that cares.

Wes

orangeninja
March 18, 2004, 11:25 PM
Man....that was DUMB....for what? Fifteen bucks? Some fights are not worth it.:rolleyes:

bluecowdawg
March 18, 2004, 11:29 PM
The video will show your friend grabbing and running. The video will show the CSR in hot pursuit. The video will show the CSR conronting your friend. Your friend will drive off in their video. I hope that is ALL the video will show.



then the video should also show him enter the store and present the box of .40 cal ammo to the person at the service desk:D

PATH
March 18, 2004, 11:33 PM
I probably would have been mad at first but then started laughing.

How about you buy a box of .45 walk out the door and come back in with your .40 ammo and say you would like to return it for .45 as you just bought it. You are technically returning something within 24 hour period, just not .45's. I believe that most of them would not realize!

Given that Rhodes scholarship status is not required to work at Wally World I would have taken this as a way out. Why argue with dolts? All it does is anger you and confuse the hell out of them!

I hope your buddy does not get jammed up!

Black Majik
March 18, 2004, 11:35 PM
Some people buy rifles because they have extra scopes laying around.

Or a 1911 cuz he had an extra pair of 1911 grips to put on.

He should have bought a .40 caliber pistol to go along with the ammo :D





IMO if he had a membership I'd go to the range and rent a .40 caliber pistol and use up the ammo.

R.H. Lee
March 18, 2004, 11:37 PM
Civil. Not criminal. The video will show your friend grabbing and running. The video will show the CSR in hot pursuit. The video will show the CSR conronting your friend. Your friend will drive off in their video. I hope that is ALL the video will show. If your friend was in physical contact with a CSR, felony charges are possible. Robbery is the charge. Method is strong arm. Criminal assault and battery charges are possible. A resisting arrest charge is possible. Tampering with evidence, fleeing and escape from custody are even possible. These are all state charges. The Wal-Mart policy is prominently posted about returns of ammunition must be within 24 hours. Your friend could now be a wanted felon with warrants outstanding. He could be lucky but, I would bet on the former. The best thing to do is NEVER visit that Wal-Mart again. He was on video.

Buddy says there was no physical contact with the CSR. Says he did not RUN from the store, walked out calmly. Receipt says .45. He left the .40.

It is doubtful the DA's office would take an interest, WalMart has suffered NO LOSS-they have no damages.

Zundfolge
March 18, 2004, 11:48 PM
If the receipt says .45 and he paid for it, it ain't shoplifting.
I doubt that will work in court ... especially with a reciept thats a few days old. Otherwise I could just save my reciept, walk back into the store and grab another box of .45 and expect to get away with it.

Basically what he did is walk in with a box of ammo that was his property, left it behind and stole a box of .45 (at least thats how the judge would see it).


Wal Mart is my shopping destination of last choice: @#$%^&! service, plus communist Chinese junk.
I keep hearing that same thing, but can anyone point me to a similar type of store that has good prices, good service (although I've never had bad service at Walmart) and no Chinese junk? I can't afford to buy clothes at Dillards or groceries at the Union run (read: communist) stores like Albertsons, Kroger or Safeway.

Pendragon
March 18, 2004, 11:54 PM
Not only that, but he COULD say that he meant to buy a box of .40 for a gift but got all .45 and went to exchage the .45 for the .40 and when they refused, he simply grabbed his own box of .45 and walked out upset. :evil:

The film would show him bringing in a box, them bringing up a box and him grabbing one and leaving.

No way would this pass the smell test and no way would a DA take the case. SO many ways you can instill LOTS of very reasonable doubt about what happened and at the end of the day, he left with a box of ammo that is shown on his reciept.

R.H. Lee
March 18, 2004, 11:57 PM
Basically what he did is walk in with a box of ammo that was his property, left it behind and stole a box of .45 (at least thats how the judge would see it).

And that would be the extent of the prosecution's case?

My buddy also tells me he offered to give his phone # to the CSR as she was walking away in the parking lot. She just shouted back that she's calling the cops.

He has prepaid legal. Maybe he'll get a chance to use it.

Mulliga
March 19, 2004, 12:01 AM
As with any national chain, it depends on who gives you service. I can't believe they wouldn't exchange the ammo when it was their mistake, but your friend should have checked the ammo when he bought it.

What I would have done is claim the cartridges were defective (okay, mild lie here). Obviously, they have no way to test it, and rather than risk a lawsuit, I'd bet that they'd simply give you another box of ammo.

Strange...my Wally World keeps the ammo in a locked glass case. Your friend's Wal-Mart keeps it out in the open?

MikeB
March 19, 2004, 12:03 AM
I think your buddy made a mistake. Hopefully it won't come back to haunt him.

FWIW I believe your buddy should have used this as an opportunity like I did once. True story follows.

I'm at the Gunshop I normally frequent and buy 4 boxes of .45ACP. When I get home I find that a box of .357SIG was stacked with the .45ACP by mistake and I didn't notice it when I picked it up or made the purchase.

So I go back within a couple of days and ask that they exchange it or sell me a firearm in .357SIG. They are willing to exchange ..........but long story short I walk out with a Glock in .357 SIG. Only Glock I own, I don't particulary like them but it was a GOOD deal and I didn't have a Glock in my collection. Of course a SIG in .357SIG and a home built 1911 in .357SIG soon followed but anyways.

Granted you buddy wasn't going to be allowed to exchange however he should have bought a firearm in .40S&W or traded with someone as has been mentioned by others for the proper caliber. Regardless it wasn't worth the approx $15 to invite possible criminal charges or the expense of defending same charges.

R.H. Lee
March 19, 2004, 12:05 AM
Strange...my Wally World keeps the ammo in a locked glass case. Your friend's Wal-Mart keeps it out in the open?

No. When he entered the store with the .40 in the bag, the little old lady at the door took it to the customer service counter, told him to go back to sporting goods and get the .45, and return to customer service.

The dufus at sporting goods unlocked the case and handed the .45 to my buddy, who took it to the customer service counter.

Don Gwinn
March 19, 2004, 12:13 AM
a similar type of store
This is mutually exclusive with:
that has good prices, good service

If a store has good prices and good service, it ain't similar to Wally World.

Some of you guys sure seem desperate to give Wal Mart your business. Working hard at it, too.

Last time I tried to buy ammo at a big discount place was at Meijer's about a year ago. I didn't want to do it then, but I told myself I only needed cheap stuff and I was already on the west side of town (and all the decent gun shops are on the east side.)
So I'm standing there at the back of the store next to the ammo locker and waiting for somebody to come by. Nobody does. So I go in search. Nobody. So I go to the front and ask them to page someone to the ammunition. Get a look like I'm from Mars but she pages. Go back to the ammo locker. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait.
Check watch. Have now been waiting so long to give them my money that it's been half an hour since I decided to shop there to save time.
What was I thinking? I left. I drove to Bullet Express on the other side of town and bought ammo. I told John, the owner, my story. Confessed my sins and promised to sin no more. Received his blessing and left. Took me less than half an hour AND I had what I wanted and was happy.

There was never any excuse for giving them John's money in the first place. Since then, I never have.

Psssniper
March 19, 2004, 12:30 AM
This is why it's important to have at least one gun in every caliber.
Let no ammo go to waste!!

artherd
March 19, 2004, 12:43 AM
If your buddy really had such a problem, he should have asked to speak with the highest authority present at the store, and proposed the following;

" I am willing to give you the .40 back in exchange for the .45 as printed on my recipt. However since that is a violation of 'federal law', I propose we settle this matter by me simply keeping the .45. I expect your cashiers will be more careful next time, I would hate to find out what my lawyers would do if I fired .40 in my .45 and blew my arm off."

If that dosen't work, write in.

Or just get a .40 :)

schromf
March 19, 2004, 12:50 AM
I have actually never even been in a Walmart, but after the above description of customer service I never will. I buy my ammo cheaply but my dealer would never treat me like that. Heck the manager gives me sale prices even after I miss the sales. Even if I was paying a buck a box more I would rather pay it than be treated like that.

I buy my guns and ammo from smaller dealers that are gun people. I know there are a mixed bag of them out there, but if you look, and save your purchases until you are buying a larger quantity you can get your ammo at similar prices and never have to put up with that jazz. By the time you figure the time ( I definately consider that cost ), the hassle, the gas back to Walmart, the cost was probably double.

If I understand this correctly this is all because the duffus who unlocked the ammo case got 4 boxes of 45 ACP and one of 40SW (which I find particularly stupid because the boxes aren't even the same size ).

No thanks I will continue to not go to Walmart.

Nighthawk
March 19, 2004, 01:14 AM
True story.

Remmington UMC 230 grain .45 ACP

Wal Mart Price: $13.99

Local Gun Store Price: $9.99

Keeping money in the hands of a local gunstore owner (and saving four bucks per box while doing it): Priceless.


Dealing with Wal Mart customer service is like trying to reason with the Gestapo. They're given orders about what they will and won't take back, and they follow those orders without thought or reason. I once bought a TracFone there (don't laugh) and when I got home, it had been activated and half the minutes already used. So, I take it back and am told that I cannot exchange the phone because I've already used it. I tell them, no, I haven't used it, and I spent four hours trying to talk to somebody who hasn't been labotomized (1 hour at the store, another 3 on the phone after I took the used phone home). I went in wanting an exchange, I finally ended up getting my money back and getting one of the customer service Nazis fired.

Another customer service nightmare: a relative went to Wal Mart to buy groceries. Idiot teenage flunkie from the government training camps (a.k.a. public school) takes one big-ticket item and puts it in the bag without scanning it. Rings my relative up, my relative leaves the store. Cashier calls a CSM and reports my relative as a shoplifter. He's caught in the parking lot, has his car rummaged through, and is told to come back into the store. He offers to pay for whatever it was that wasn't scanned, they refuse to let him. They call the police and file charges. Three people in line even told the police officer that the cashier had bagged the item in question without scanning it, but the Wal Mart manager decided to press charges anyway. Luckily for my relative, the whole thing got thrown out of court. He was nice. He didn't countersue for harassment. He should have.

I hope your friend doesn't have to go through that kind of ordeal.

Cool Hand Luke 22:36
March 19, 2004, 01:16 AM
Robbery is the charge. Method is strong arm. Criminal assault and battery charges are possible. A resisting arrest charge is possible. Tampering with evidence, fleeing and escape from custody are even possible. These are all state charges. The Wal-Mart policy is prominently posted about returns of ammunition must be within 24 hours.


I think a good argument could be made that this person was legally entilted to recover his property, never delivered to him by WallMart, under the well recognized doctrine of "Self-Help" similar to how a furniture rental company is entilted under some circumstances to enter a home, sans permission, to recover their property if the renter stops making the monthly payment.

R.H. Lee
March 19, 2004, 01:28 AM
The original purchase (or "contract") was for 5 boxes of WWB .45 ACP.
There was an offer, an acceptance, and consideration paid. These are three of the 5 elements of a contract. (The other two are 'lawful object' and 'competent parties')

The receipt proves that a contract for 5 boxes of WWB .45 ACP was executed. The missing element here is 'proof of delivery'. The buyer says he did not receive what the contract stated.

I'm not a lawyer, just thinking this through.

Josey
March 19, 2004, 01:55 AM
Trust me. Video is all that matters. The entry video is only going to show your friend bringing something in and his escort to the CS counter. A threat by a Wal-Mart CSR to call the police is real, they do. Wal-Mart Managers ALWAYS prosecute! I hope things work out well for your friend. He risked too much for one box of ammo. (The dumb clerk couldn't tell 40 from 45. The boxes are not the same size as one poster noted. Your friend couldn't tell the difference while carrying it to the register, buying it and he didn't check his receipt if I understand you correctly.) Look before you leave.

c_yeager
March 19, 2004, 02:19 AM
A merchant has NO legal obligation to exchange purchased goods. The CONTRACT concering the receipt that has been mentioned is a two way street. It is the CONSUMER'S obligation to verify that the goods that he paid for are what he recieved. The situation would have been EASILY resolved at the counter WHEN he was first purchasing his ammo.

Everyone keeps stating that he just grabbed HIS property, prove it. Just because he has this magical reciept that says "5 boxes of .45 ACP" doesnt prove that he didnt RECIEVE 5 boxes of .45 ACP. For all wallmart knows they didnt even sell him this box of .40 cal. There is nothing to prove that he didnt buy the box of .40 at a different store or during a different transaction.

In the eyes of the store all they know is that there is some guy with a box of .40 cal and a receipt for 5 boxes of .45 cal. Who SAYS that they screwed up. There is nothing to prove their screwup. And in response this 'customer' STEALS a box of .45acp and leaves them with an unsellable box of .40 that could be reloads or messed up or god knows what.

While everyone here is complaining about the service at WALLMART consider this for a moment. Wallmart has a policy of NOT physically restraining shoplifters. A merchant has every right in the world to tackle and cuff a shoplifter and hold them for the police. Their 'terrible' policies are what kept your friend out of jail.

Moparmike
March 19, 2004, 03:05 AM
Am I the only one who would have put the box of .40 in my pocket (like a coat pocket) and done some grocery shoping and simply exchanged the box of ammo in my cart for the one in my pocket, then left it somewhere in sporting goods or even taken it back to the clerk saying "Gonna have to skip on plinkin' this week, havin' a barbeque" or something? It may sound dishonest but it sure as heck is better than having to put up with all that BS with management.

Maybe I am just weird.:uhoh: :confused:

davidtdm
March 19, 2004, 03:43 AM
RileyMC,

I feel for your buddy. I've had some funny stories about wallyworkd myself. A question about the receipt. In your original post it doesn't mention the receipt or the appearance of the receipt. You just say he bought 5 boxes of .45 and wound up with 4 of.45 and 1 of.40. Others have posted assuming that the receipt has actually itemized all the boxes. The question. Is this the case, does the receipt itemize 5 boxes of .45, or 4 boxes of .45 and 1 box of .40?

Wallmart has a real top notch inventory/reordering process. Once an item gets checked out at a registar it notifies the home office that an item was purchased and a replacement is automatically placed and ready to go out on the next truck for shipment. That said. (here is my assumption) I'd imagine that the CSR's are trained to scan items one at time rather than one item 5 times and risk a mistake in inventory. Again this is my assumption and is based on my experience. I buy my ammo at wallyworld and usually in bulk and at least 3 different calibers at a time. They each get scanned individually (which by the way can get annoying, but I understand their positon).

All that said..... The comments about your buddy just taking what he paid for may not be the case if that receipt actually has 4 boxes of .45 and 1 box of .40. Regardless if he brought back the box of .40. If this is the case your buddy screwed up. I hope nothing happens to him. Next time I hope he checks what he actually buys.


...dave

Kooter
March 19, 2004, 04:16 AM
doesn't pass the smell test to me. i don't believe that a wal mart associate, that is not either loss prevention nor a salaried member of management followed him into the parking lot and accused him of stealing. first off when an apprehension is made, which can only be made by loss prevention or salaried management, there is never an accusation of shoplifting made. if an hourly associate followed him into the parking lot, he needs to proceed with complaints about that person, because that is grounds for termination. the ONLY way you can be arrested for shoplifting at walmart is if you are physically seen(not on camera) concealing merchandise that is known to be from that walmart, seen not paying for it, then seen leaving the front door. if they lose sight of you for 1 second, they won't stop you.

Majic
March 19, 2004, 04:18 AM
Am I the only one who would have put the box of .40 in my pocket (like a coat pocket) and done some grocery shoping and simply exchanged the box of ammo in my cart for the one in my pocket, then left it somewhere in sporting goods or even taken it back to the clerk saying "Gonna have to skip on plinkin' this week, havin' a barbeque" or something?
One problem with that in the Walmarts around me. When the sporting goods counterperson hands you the ammo, you have to pay for it right there. You can't pay for it in another department or at the store front registers.

cracked butt
March 19, 2004, 04:32 AM
Most sporting goods stores, and by my guess Walmart, have signs prominantly displayed that state that they will not take returns or exchanges on ammo.
Its not hard to take a quick look at the boxes of ammo you are purchasing to make sure that they are the right kind, even if it 5 boxes. Seeing a sign posted should give an extra prompt to a person to do so.

Going in to a store, grabbing a box of shells off the shelf and walking out is not a very bright thing to do.

c_yeager
March 19, 2004, 05:14 AM
the ONLY way you can be arrested for shoplifting at walmart is if you are physically seen(not on camera) concealing merchandise that is known to be from that walmart, seen not paying for it, then seen leaving the front door. if they lose sight of you for 1 second, they won't stop you.

According to the original account he just grabbed it walked right out of the place in from of the associate. Concealing an item isnt required for it to be shoplifting. Walking out of the store without paying for it is shoplifting.

standingbear
March 19, 2004, 08:40 AM
they hassle you about most ANY return..except round xmas.ive bought computer software there and had to return it cause my computer is a dinosaur and non compatable.it was opened and the only thing they would do is offer an exchange....for the very same software..duh.ended up giving it to my nephew for some shotgun shells.ida taken the ammo to a regular gunshop and offered an trade for something else.the only advantage wally world has is its hours.

Hawk
March 19, 2004, 09:09 AM
The difference between buying ammo from my local dealer and buying it at Wallyworld is that, with the local FFL, my blood pressure is actually lower when I leave than when I went in.

Wal-Mart has never had that effect. Thus I haven't seen the inside of one in the last 4 years.

The fact that local dude stocks the 100 count WWB 9mm doesn't hurt.

Devonai
March 19, 2004, 09:24 AM
How much .40 could they have sold during that week? It seems to me that the proof that the box came from that particular store is printed on every box of ammo in the form of a lot number. I don't have a box of Winchester handy but they still put lot numbers on them, don't they?

But more importantly, if the reason for no ammo returns is liability, why don't manufacturers start sealing their boxes? How much would it cost the manufacturer to put a circular paper sticker on each flap before sending it out the door? Heck, they could have their logo on the sticker to confirm it was sealed at the factory.

R.H. Lee
March 19, 2004, 09:32 AM
(The dumb clerk couldn't tell 40 from 45. The boxes are not the same size as one poster noted. Your friend couldn't tell the difference while carrying it to the register, buying it and he didn't check his receipt if I understand you correctly.) Look before you leave.

He went to the ammo counter, asked for 5 boxes of .45 ACP The purchase was scanned and bagged by the clerk at the ammo counter. My friend did not carry the ammo to the register, the register is at the ammo counter.

Just because he has this magical reciept that says "5 boxes of .45 ACP" doesnt prove that he didnt RECIEVE 5 boxes of .45 ACP. For all wallmart knows they didnt even sell him this box of .40 cal. There is nothing to prove that he didnt buy the box of .40 at a different store or during a different transaction.

In the eyes of the store all they know is that there is some guy with a box of .40 cal and a receipt for 5 boxes of .45 cal. Who SAYS that they screwed up. There is nothing to prove their screwup. And in response this 'customer' STEALS a box of .45acp and leaves them with an unsellable box of .40 that could be reloads or messed up or god knows what.

There's nothing to prove any of these allegations, either.

The question. Is this the case, does the receipt itemize 5 boxes of .45, or 4 boxes of .45 and 1 box of .40?


The receipt says "WIN 45AUTOVP $19.97" 5 times. There is no .40 on the receipt.

doesn't pass the smell test to me. i don't believe that a wal mart associate, that is not either loss prevention nor a salaried member of management followed him into the parking lot and accused him of stealing. first off when an apprehension is made, which can only be made by loss prevention or salaried management, there is never an accusation of shoplifting made. if an hourly associate followed him into the parking lot, he needs to proceed with complaints about that person, because that is grounds for termination. the ONLY way you can be arrested for shoplifting at walmart is if you are physically seen(not on camera) concealing merchandise that is known to be from that walmart, seen not paying for it, then seen leaving the front door. if they lose sight of you for 1 second, they won't stop you.

My buddy does not know if the person was 'hourl' or 'salaried'. Apparently, there was no accusation of shoplifting. The accusation was "violation of federal law.:

R.H. Lee
March 19, 2004, 09:38 AM
Going in to a store, grabbing a box of shells off the shelf and walking out is not a very bright thing to do

That is not what happened. It's not even possible to do that at WalMart. All ammo is kept in a locked case underneath a counter. You have to pay for it at THAT counter. The dumb ass dufus clerk should not have even let my buddy leave that counter with the replacement .45, BUT, that is what the nice little old lady up front asked my friend to do.-"Go back, get what you want, and bring it to the customer service counter"

R.H. Lee
March 19, 2004, 09:42 AM
How much .40 could they have sold during that week? It seems to me that the proof that the box came from that particular store is printed on every box of ammo in the form of a lot number. I don't have a box of Winchester handy but they still put lot numbers on them, don't they?

Of course. This is the way a rational mind works. But customer service was unwilling to go this far, or even DISCUSS anything beyond "Can't return 'bullets' (they kept calling them 'bullets') violation of federal law......"
.bzzzzzzzz....

ysr_racer
March 19, 2004, 09:53 AM
Wat too much trouble for a box of ammo. He made the mistake. suck it up, live and learn.

Ala Dan
March 19, 2004, 10:03 AM
No violation of federal law as far as I can tell! Sounds
more like a stupid Wal-Mart statement that probably
originated higher up the chain of command; maybe
even in Bentonville, AR?

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

Carlos Cabeza
March 19, 2004, 10:08 AM
Hmmmmmm, got this box of .40 S&W, What to do ? What to do ? GET A NEW PISTOL ! :D .40 Glock sounds nice ....................:cool:

Eskimo Jim
March 19, 2004, 10:10 AM
I'd say check the receipt. If it says 45acp and you were given 40S&W instead then you did pay for it and therefore entitled to get what you pay for.

Let's face facts here about most stores. You aren't dealing with sales people that are parituclarly knowledgable about the items that they are selling. the majority of the time. Secondly, I'm sure that large companies aren't spending the amount of time needed to properly train their sales clerks and cashiers. Third, people are prone to making errors.

When ever I've bought anything behind a counter at a chain store, I've had to ask for what I wanted, then directed the clerk where to find it on the shelf. Either they don't even know where their own stock is or they can't read the box.

Double check everything in a chain store. Make sure that you have a rough idea of the total cost for the items that you are going to buy. Count your change, check the box to make sure that's what you want.

I don't know if exchanging ammunition is a violation of federal law. Most stores where I've bought ammuntion have had signs that all ammunition sales are final.

Good luck.

-Jim

entropy
March 19, 2004, 10:25 AM
Perhaps I am merely pointing out the obvious here, but didn't he check the ammo boxes before paying for them? I've bought WWB 9, .40, and .45 plenty of times at several different Wally Worlds, and even in the stores that make you pay at the Sporting goods counter, they hand you the boxes before they ring them up. Out of habit, I not only look at the box, I open it and look at the rounds. Yes, the Wally World doofus handed him the wrong stuff to begin with, but could he perhaps be somewhat culpable for failing to inspect the merchandise? :o Even if he had no chance to inspect the boxes before paying for them, if he had done so immediately after paying for them, he'd have probably stood a better chance of getting it resolved immediately by the Sporting goods doofus, and maybe the Store Manager, while still at the Sporting Goods counter.;)
PS: I only go there for WWB ammo, and SGN, and my nephew and his wife are Dept. managers there!:p
FWIW: Fleet Farm also has signs posted saying 'per Federal Law, ammo cannot be returned after Feb. 1, 2001' , I'd like to see the law.

RustyHammer
March 19, 2004, 10:37 AM
In any event, a box of .45 cartridges, whether exchanged or taken, is NOT WORTH GOING TO JAIL FOR!!!

With attorney fees, time off from work, other associated costs ..... $$$$$ .... not worth it ... even if you "win" you lose!

Your buddy should have checked the boxes before leaving the store.

:fire:

mlheppl
March 19, 2004, 11:05 AM
Your friend lost the battle when he lost his cool and grabbed the 45 ammo and left. Everyone knows that the majority of the people behind the gun counter at Wally World have no idea what they're doing. Knowing this before hand, he should have checked everything out before he left the store the first time.

Something to think about: Never argue with idiots, they bring you down to their level, then beat you with experience! :neener:

bogie
March 19, 2004, 11:06 AM
What Wally World is worried about is that Bubba is gonna buy a box of rounds, shoot 'em up, then handload 'em with some unknown concoction, and return 'em, and have some other Bubba's gun blow up in his face, and he'll then sue Wally World. Since the clerks are largely untrained, and they don't wanna explain all this crap, they tell 'em it's the law. No biggie. It's the corporate "law" - the corporation is NOT a democracy.

I wouldn't have tried to return 'em - I WOULD have explained the snafu to the manager, and likely would have gotten a box of .45s out of it. I suspect that the fellow at hand went in and immediately created an adversarial situation. Not cool, and doesn't reflect well on gun owners.

R.H. Lee
March 19, 2004, 11:07 AM
The 'shoplifting' allegation is weak. Here's why:

There was no intent to defraud. At the point of the original transaction, title to 5 boxes of .45 ACP passed when my buddy paid for 5 boxes of .45 ACP. He acted in good faith by accepting the bag handed to him by the clerk and left the store. He did not know that he had only 4 boxes of .45,
which he legally owned, and one box of .40, which he did not own.

Upon discovery of the error he returned to WalMart in a good faith attempt to correct the store's error. WalMart not only refused to correct their own mistake, they refused to deal with it in any reasonable fashion. In addition to that, the clerk at the ammo counter should not have handed over the box of .45 to my buddy which he took back to the customer service counter.

WalMart made a series of errors here and refused to correct any of them.

IF this should go for prosecution, it may very well be dismissed, in which case WalMart may find themselves on the receiving end of a civil suit for malicious prosecution.

ksnecktieman
March 19, 2004, 11:10 AM
IMHO,,,,, I think he should fix his problem now, before he is arrested. Maybe he will be, and maybe not, but going to court is expensive, both in money and in time. I think he should go to the walmart, and ask for the manager. He should explain the situation, and claim "Walmart Rage". Tell the manager he will pay for the box of .45 he carried out, if they will return the .40 he returned. Then sell it or give it to a friend. I say this with the assumption that he is on camera multiple times. Yes, that is the chicken way out,,,, so? Fifteen dollars out of pocket is better than the wages for half of a days work, even if he does have insurance to cover the lawyer, and one half days work probable will not cover the time it takes.

If he does nothing else, I think maybe a letter of protest to Walmart headquarters is in order. If/when he does have to go to court it will demonstrate that theft was not his intent.:confused:

R.H. Lee
March 19, 2004, 11:16 AM
Your friend lost the battle when he lost his cool and grabbed the 45 ammo and left.

and

I suspect that the fellow at hand went in and immediately created an adversarial situation. Not cool, and doesn't reflect well on gun owners.


It was not a 'grab and run'. There were two boxes of ammo on the counter, one he owned and one he did not own. He calmly picked up the one he owned and exited the store. He was not shouting or agitated. He explained twice what had happened and what it would take to correct it.

It was 100% percent WalMart error. However, if he had it to do all over again, he wouldn't, obviously. He did not however break any law, and any allegation of such is a stretch.

Kharn
March 19, 2004, 11:36 AM
If I were your buddy, I wouldnt go back to that Walmart for a very, very long time.

And, IMHO, he committed shoplifting by grabbing the box he did not enter with and leaving the store.

Kharn

Double Maduro
March 19, 2004, 11:41 AM
A couple suggestions.

1. If you shop at wal mart be prepared for sloppy and stupid service.

2. If you shop at wal mart check your purchases, especially if the clerk is dumber than usual.

3. When someone says "federal law" ask which one. I once had a clerk in a mall knife shop tell me that OSHA wouldn't let anyone sell carbon steel chef's knives because "they will turn your onions yellow". When I challenged him he went ballistic and lost some customers.

4. $10 isn't worth the hassle of driving back to wall mart and fighting with the clerk again.

5. You saved about $2 a box on the ammo and it cost you most of that in time, gas, and aggravation.

6. I am about tired of hearing these tails of woe about shopping at wal mart. Everyone knows and most agree that wally world sucks. If you are stupid and or cheap enough to shop there then don't come crying to us when you get burned.

7. Getting bad, shoddy service at wal mart is nothing new and we don't need to hear about it. It is nothing to be proud of or brag about.

8. Getting one over on the disadvantaged is also nothing to brag about.

9. These threads are getting to be as common as the 9mm vs .45 threads and are not nearly as entertaining.

Sorry, I'm in a bad mood today.

But I am serious, if you shop at wally world don't come crying to us about the service you received. We have heard it before.

DM

R.H. Lee
March 19, 2004, 11:46 AM
Double Maduro

Re: Points 1 thru 9.

Amen.

Lesson learned. :)

general
March 19, 2004, 11:56 AM
But more importantly, if the reason for no ammo returns is liability, why don't manufacturers start sealing their boxes?
Devonai:
Careful now... they'll childproof 'em!:eek:
Similar scenario:
Dad orders a case of what he thought was .357 Mag. - receives a case of .357 SIG... couldn't remember if he got the numbers fouled up or not, but he didn't even check the ammo till he went to shoot some several weeks later.. now it's too late.
Remember...
"Trust - but verify."
I'm still looking for a good deal on a XD or Glock in .357 SIG..... anyone?

Bill Hook
March 19, 2004, 12:12 PM
Cops aren't going to arrest the guy for stealing $13 worth merchandise if they didn't do it before he left the premises. I wouldn't go back there again, but your buddy's face isn't posted over at the PO, either.

foghornl
March 19, 2004, 12:18 PM
Wal-Mart has a pretty good history of placing employees in areas they don't know about. Case in point...ex-mom-in-law kept getting assigned to areas like sporting goods & automotive and hardware/paint..but hardly ever in household/domestic or clothing areas

So, ya pays yer penny & takes yer chance

olyAR73
March 19, 2004, 12:22 PM
Good for your buddy. There are sheep in this world who will follow every policy, regulation, or law no matter how rediculous. Sometimes you just have to be a "bad" citizen.

"Signs, signs, everywhere theres signs...."

Correia
March 19, 2004, 12:22 PM
I hate to say this, but if I owned a store that sold ammo, I would never accept returned ammo. All it takes is one nutjob to return a box with some double charges or squib loads and another customer could get badly hurt and I could get sued.

And getting bad and incompetant service at Walmart is like getting wet if you stand in the rain.

As for taking the .45 and walking out. Good lawyers start at around $250 an hour. It just isn't worth losing your cool, even if you are right.

Mark13
March 19, 2004, 12:30 PM
Walmart gave me the wrong ammo too, but I got over it. Now I am always very careful to check everything I get. I'm all for their no return policy. The chance that some jerkoff tampers with ammo and then returns it is very small, but we are dealing with explosives and expensive guns, so I'd rather be safe than sorry.

Taking the ammo he'd paid for was funny, and technically probably not illegal, but dumb nonetheless. The last thing you want is law enforcement thinking of your name and gun-related problems together.

Zundfolge
March 19, 2004, 01:11 PM
If a store has good prices and good service, it ain't similar to Wally World.

Some of you guys sure seem desperate to give Wal Mart your business. Working hard at it, too.

I'm always amazed by the anti Wal Mart attitude I see in these (and other) forums (although I expect it from the anti-capitalist forums like DU).

You don't have this problem at K-Mart or Target or any other mass merchandiser I know of because they have all caved to the antis and don't sell ammo.
You anti Wal Mart guys must be richer then I ... There's a Safeway and an Albertson's closer to my house then the Wal Mart I shop at and I've compared prices ... if I was to shop at either I'd pay $30-$50 more per week for my groceries and other staple items ... that's upwards of $2600 per year (just under a month's pay for me). Plus I'd be putting money in the pockets of labor unions that want to disarm me.
Some of you guys must expect the same kind of service at Wal Mart that you'd get at high end specialty shops (how many "gun shop guy is an idiot" type threads have we had here?).
Maybe I'm lucky and the Wal Marts in Colorado Springs, CO and Wichita, KS are the only good ones in the entire chain.


The chance that some jerkoff tampers with ammo and then returns it is very small, but we are dealing with explosives and expensive guns, so I'd rather be safe than sorry.
I may be wrong, but I seem to remember some anti plot to tamper with ammo and return it to the store ... I seem to remember reading about that in this forum. (looks like I have a date with Google)

Eskimo Jim
March 19, 2004, 01:38 PM
Many people have made the comment that it is possible to 'doctor' the loads in the ammunition that was bought and then try to return it or return ammunition that was really handloaded rather than the same factory load that was bought.

I find this rather ridiculous. Has anyone noticed that when you open a box that you end up tearing a little bit on the flaps when opening a new box of ammunition?

-Jim

J.J.
March 19, 2004, 01:39 PM
Just a quick comment...

From The people who work at wal-marts point of view.

Have y'all ever thought of doing this looking at it through another’s point of view.

No proof that the item he is showing is the item that he got by mistake. Its a week old someone can't verify if this could have happened. For all wal-mart knows He could be trying to exchange ammo he never bought etc.


2ndly it is shoplifting because he has no proof what he bought a week ago was some of the wrong stuff. It happens all the time at wal-mart people trying to leave with a week old sales receipt.

Instead of calling everyone who works at wal-mart stupid THINK about things from their perspective.

Y’all complain about the stupid people at wal-mart and this that and the other. And I get tired of it because

a. I work at wal-mart so I can get through college.
b. My friends work at wal-mart.

Yes you have stupid people everywhere. When a manager tells you to go work sporting goods, that does not automatically give a person years of experience and knowledge that y’all have accumulated.

I admit some of the people I work with are on the slow side but making fun of them is not the high road.

Viking6
March 19, 2004, 02:04 PM
J.J. has some good points; I reckon some of the folks would like to be Trump's Apprentice but ain't likely to happen. My experience at Walmart has been mixed but I generally curb my expectations. It's the same in most retail establishments and I'm sure my bosses are sometimes less than thrilled with some of my product. Your friend made a mistake by not paying closer attention initially to his purchase. Walmart for whatever reason has a policy, buyer beware.
Yesterday, I bought some hypodermic needles for my dog's insulin at Sam's Club. My wife had told what kind, as I was paying the pharmacist, he told me they didn't accept returns for the needles. I could have called my wife at work for third time that afternoon to ensure I had the right kind but I took a $13.87 risk. If I had screwed it up it would have been a lick on me. In my opinion, your friend didn't have the right to walk out with the ammo, that's my opinion. Hopefully, this tempest in a teapot will subside and he'll slide by.

R.H. Lee
March 19, 2004, 02:06 PM
No proof that the item he is showing is the item that he got by mistake. Its a week old someone can't verify if this could have happened. For all wal-mart knows He could be trying to exchange ammo he never bought etc.


2ndly it is shoplifting because he has no proof what he bought a week ago was some of the wrong stuff. It happens all the time at wal-mart people trying to leave with a week old sales receipt

These statements may be true. However the facts of the matter are as stated. There is no PROOF otherwise. The customer did not get what he paid for, tried to make it right, and WalMart refused to correct THEIR error.

If WalMart's procedures do not allow correction of their own mistakes, it is not the customer's fault.

I also think it's intersting that a WalMart employee would be predisposed, or automatically assume, that their customers are dishonest, or are likely to be pulling a 'fast one'. :rolleyes:

Pendragon
March 19, 2004, 02:29 PM
I worked at Walmart when I was about 21 or 22.

I worked in electronics and moved a LOT of product by practicing salesmanship. I was the onlyone who could move big ticket items. Our department almost always had the highest volume compare to other stores.

Did they care? HA!

I wanted to get on nights to make an extra buck an hour - they kept running me in circles until I pinned a manager down.

The next day I was informed that I was needed the next day for a "special project" sweeping up the dirt when they move plants around or something.

I quit - I actually waited until my shift was half over, then walked in all casual and smiley. Manager was freaking out about being late. I said I quit.

She said "if you don't give 2 weeks notice, you can NEVER WORK AT ANY WAL-MART AGAIN - EVER!"

I said "Can I get that in writing?!" :neener:

Kooter
March 19, 2004, 02:49 PM
These statements may be true. However the facts of the matter are as stated. There is no PROOF otherwise. The customer did not get what he paid for, tried to make it right, and WalMart refused to correct THEIR error.


what do you mean there is no proof?

WM has him on camera entering store.

door greeter witnessed that.

door greeter witnessed him bring in ammo.

dude was sent back to sporting goods, to get exchange ammo.(on camera, witness testimony)

dude told sporting goods guy what happened, and he needed a box of 45 to exchange for the 40.(on camera, witness testimony)

dude went back to service desk and explained situation. camera/witness testimony

dude was told that WM will not accept his offer of exchanging some $15.97 ammo for some $19.97 ammo. camera/witness testimony

only "proof" dude has is a week old receipt.

dude informed that WM only accepts returns within 24 hours with a receipt. witness testimony

in a fit of rage, dude grabbed the store owned property and fled the premises. camera/witness testimony


seems like the only proof dude has is his word, and a week old receipt. walmart has a atleast 3 associates that can verify what he brought in, and what he wanted to trade it for. since it is against policy it was not allowed. he grabbed what he wanted and left. sounds like shop lifting to me. if you disagree then PROVE he got 4 boxes of 45 and 1 box of 40. can't do it with the receipt cause according to it he got 5 boxes of 45. guess that only leaves you with his word, which doesn't go very far in the courtroom when someone else has facts to base their argument on.


FYI- when ammo is returned to WM it is immediately sent to the claims department and from there sent to the police department. the police department (supposedly) destroys the ammo. even if the ammo doesn't leave the store, and is walked from the SG counter to the service desk by the customer then it is sent to the police dept. for destruction.

caseydog
March 19, 2004, 04:09 PM
The customer did not get what he paid for, tried to make it right, and WalMart refused to correct THEIR error.


This guy sounds like a blissninny stereotype (it can't be my fault), when I buy something the onus is on me to get what I asked for , heck I've been to alot of gunshops and asked for 44Spc. and got 44mag handed to me.

Also I'm glad that a clear 80% of the responders here are edumacated and all and never had to work in a retail establishment that was out of their element, since everyone at WalMart is a doofus or stupid , or just doesn't care according to most. Wake up - it's the best job they can get to try and do well by their families and maybe a second job for some trying to put their kids through school or something, at least they have a job. When you deal with someone who treats you pleasantly and with respect in spite of the crappy job they have to do , you don't take their dignity , see if you can spare them some of yours. HighRoad my butt !

I know you don't want to hear it since you spent this whole thread trying to justify what your buddy did , The sporting goods clerk who doesn't know hoot about ammo picked up a stack of boxes that had one wrong box in it and set it on the counter, your buddy looked at the stack to count the boxes at least , the 40 box is a good bit different in size and shape than the 45 boxes , why didn't he notice ?? He didn't notice in the car ? he didn't notice at home? He didn't notice for a week? he comes back a week later with a box of .40 ($14.97) that could have been bought at any time on a different reciept and wants 45 ($19.97) ,sounds like a great scam , lemme know if a store goes for it. He lifted the 45 ammo and it's not WalMarts fault in the least , if he is not smart enough to check his boxes he should go to a gunshop and say "I need ammo for my handgun" , and then hand them the gun so they can get him the right stuff, then the onus is on the clerk to get it right.

When I buy a rifle at my local shop that has an expert gunsmith behind the counter , the first thing I do is read the caliber stamping on the barrel, anyone can make a mistake , even an "expert".

Every gunshop i've been in within a 100 miles of here for at least the last five years has had a sign " all ammo sales are final"

Being that Ammo liability is a large problem , the manufacturers should start stickering the endflaps. This would cut down the "reload scammers" , which my local gunpimp admits he has been burned at once or twice.

And no I don't nor have I ever worked for WalMart.

Bill Hook
March 19, 2004, 04:10 PM
Wal-Mart cheated him and it is up to them to make it right.

Scooter .45
March 19, 2004, 04:29 PM
Interesting thread. I tend to side with Riley on most of this. Reason is, a single box of ammo is too pidley for a DA to get worked up about. Not saying I would have handled it the way his buddy did, there were other ways to go about it.

Kooter
March 19, 2004, 04:38 PM
Wal-Mart cheated him and it is up to them to make it right.


you are right a multi billion dollar company is going out of their way to screw this guy out of his $15.


sounds to me he cheated himself, because as stated in the original post the counter jockey was "... the untrained dufus at the counter didn't know how to work the register, or sell a fishing license, etc.". if he doesn't know how to work a register and he doesn't know how to sell a fishing license then it stands to reason that he isn't going to know the difference between a box of 40 and a box of 45. should have checked his purchase before he left.

Bill Hook
March 19, 2004, 04:42 PM
you are right a multi billion dollar company is going out of their way to screw this guy out of his $15.

Intentional or not, that is still a fact. Whether it becomes theft by deception or fraud IS a matter of intent.

caseydog
March 19, 2004, 05:11 PM
I also think it's intersting that a WalMart employee would be predisposed, or automatically assume, that their customers are dishonest, or are likely to be pulling a 'fast one'.

Then you have no idea how many scams are run on big retail outlets daily, the craftiness of the criminal mind would astound you.


Lets do this again and see if we can get it clearer , If he had come back in out the parking lot on the same trip he bought the ammo with all 5 boxes in tow that would have made an immediatly believable scenario.

If you think the following scenario is far out then you have no concept of retail loss prevention in a large outlet and this has nothing to do with the actual product purchased , could be ammo or hairspray:

Joe Shyster has a reciept for 5 boxes of ammo he shot up last week and he needs some more but he's tired of paying $19.97 for it so he sees the .40 for $14.97 and gets him a box, walks outside to de truck and leaves the $14.97 reciept in the truck and grabs the week old $19.97 reciept and walk back into the store and right up to customer service and tells them he was given a wrong box, and he wants the .45 that he paid for. Ok so they do it for him , he just got a box of 45 for $14.97.

Based on what some Police type folks have learned from busted scammers , I'd bet this scam is run at least 5 times a day at your local WalMart , sometimes by "crews" who have several ID's for each crew member and know when shifts change and such. No it's probably not run on ammo , but add the liability policy factor of ammo returns and it becomes much easier for the clerk to throw up a red flag , and you and I are safer for it.

As to the liability , think about it , Tamperers will take their time to learn what their doing as evidenced by the Tylenol tamperings a few years back.
Do you actually think there are no anti-gunners who are rabid enough to have thought of this , to discredit us by blowing up our own guns in our faces ??? Nevermind the cheapskate schmoe who just wants to fill the box with cheap reloads , they are a secondary problem. The world is full of bad people , thats probably why you own a gun in the first place. Why is scamming so hard to believe ?

moa
March 19, 2004, 06:10 PM
My Wally World story is this.

Visit store and notice great price on some quality ammo. I decide to buy 500 rounds. The clerk behind the counter, who apparently is an immigrant from India or someplace like that, calls the manager to see if it is okay to sell 500 rounds of ammo.

I did get the ammo, but have not been back to the store in years except on one or two occasions. Not real convenient anyway.

hops
March 19, 2004, 06:24 PM
Wally world will solve this problem soon. Self checkout stations are poping up in grocery stores and I have also seen them at Home Depot. You get it, you check it, you pay for it and you bag it. I'm sure the criminals will figure out a way in continuing their livelyhood inspite of technological innovation to make it more difficult. Where there is a will there is a way.

Majic
March 19, 2004, 06:45 PM
For all the camera disscussions, the customer also has a receipt showing the time and date of purchase. Security tapes of that time period should also show the clerk getting the ammo, scanning it, and placing it in the bag. If the camera at the customer service desk can identify the differences in the boxes, the tape of the purchase should be able to show the same. Then there will be proof if there was a mistake or not. The use of cameras can benefit both parties and a good lawyer will reconize that fact. If Walmart attorneys introduce the tapes at the time of the exchange, then the defense can ask for the tapes of the original purchase.
Still that's a lot of hassle for a mere $15.

racenutz
March 19, 2004, 08:01 PM
For all the camera disscussions, the customer also has a receipt showing the time and date of purchase.

Assuming their inventory records were accurate before the transaction, they would now show that the store was minus one box of .40 S&W & plus one box of .45 ACP.

If it was me I'd just go buy a .40 S&W, you ca never have too many guns:D

R.H. Lee
March 19, 2004, 08:43 PM
<<<----------------smacks self in forehead.

Majic said

For all the camera disscussions, the customer also has a receipt showing the time and date of purchase. Security tapes of that time period should also show the clerk getting the ammo, scanning it, and placing it in the bag. If the camera at the customer service desk can identify the differences in the boxes, the tape of the purchase should be able to show the same. Then there will be proof if there was a mistake or not

OF COURSE!

That is so deceptively simple, yet it would end the argument. Brilliant.

I don't know what you do for a living, Majic, but you are worth every penny they pay you :)

racenutz hit the 10 ring, too. I had never thought of either solution, as obvious as they seem.

Thanks:D

Hkmp5sd
March 19, 2004, 09:23 PM
with the local FFL, my blood pressure is actually lower when I leave than when I went in.
Not me. Drooling over the guns on display and trying to prevent myself from making a compulsive purchase usually jacks my blood pressure to around 3000 over 2000. :)
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=881072

pbman
March 19, 2004, 09:47 PM
We should e-mail a link to this thread to wally world.

ScottS
March 19, 2004, 09:57 PM
I can totally relate to the hassle factor. Here's my latest attempt to buy ammo at Walmart (Amherst, NH).

Me: "Box of the Winchester Value-Pak 9mm, please"
Clerk: "Boy, we sell this stuff like hotcakes. Sure one box is enough?"
Me: "Well...I guess you better make it two. Do I have to pay for it here?"
Clerk: "Nope. Here ya' go."

Bastards...I'm never going back there again.

Scott

TamThompson
March 19, 2004, 10:10 PM
The service sector is so bad these days, you have to check everything you buy before you leave. This particularly applies to fast food--I sit there at the window and look in the bag. About 1 time out of 4, there's something wrong with my order.

BluesBear
March 19, 2004, 11:24 PM
Well it's apparant that none of y'all are familiar with the quality of the camera and video equipment used at W-M/Sams. :scrutiny:



If you think anyone would be able to tell which boxes were which you've been watching too much CSI. :rolleyes:

esheato
March 19, 2004, 11:26 PM
Interesting thread. I tend to side with Riley on most of this. Reason is, a single box of ammo is too pidley for a DA to get worked up about. Not saying I would have handled it the way his buddy did, there were other ways to go about it.

Too pidley to get worked up about? Ohh..so that makes it ok? Or possibly a lesser degree of shoplifting because it's not enough to prosecute him over? I think not. Just because it's not expensive enough for someone to get "worked up over" does not mean it's permissible. Let me quote caseydog:

HighRoad my butt !

I've read all these posts, and I still think it's shoplifting.

Ed

DMK
March 19, 2004, 11:46 PM
There's an old saying that I think is appropriate to this thread:

"Two wrongs do not add up to a right."

J.J.
March 20, 2004, 12:16 AM
ok lets see how many cameras do you see in the ceilings of wal-mart? 24 hours a day 7 days a week running that would be a large large amount of film

Usually places do things like erase the old tapes after a couple days unless something happened.

So that is not a fix to anything I am afraid

Pendragon
March 20, 2004, 01:02 AM
Last week, I bought a game controller for my PC at Wal-Mart.

The sign under it said $19.99 and was for the Saitek brand.

It rang up at $29.99 and with all my other items, I noticed the amount was too high (was paying cash).

I said - that controller is supposed to be $19.99 and the girl did not bat an eye and adjusted it on the spot.

Today I went back and noticed that the sign was indeed right under my controller, but it if for a joystick, not a game pad.

I honestly thought I was being over charged - should I "make ammends"?

Or should I just chalk it up to an error in my favor since I got taken by getting the wrong kind of ammo last time (.40 when I asked for .45)?

Interesting question.

My decision to do nothing was based on laziness, not on ethics.

Guy B. Meredith
March 20, 2004, 01:31 AM
Zundfolge,

It seems that what Wal-Mart carries varies with the local. I went into a branch in an 'iffy' ethnic neighborhood and noted that they were not even selling ammo.

c_yeager
March 20, 2004, 03:13 AM
Interesting thread. I tend to side with Riley on most of this. Reason is, a single box of ammo is too pidley for a DA to get worked up about. Not saying I would have handled it the way his buddy did, there were other ways to go about it.

Obviously you have ne experience with retail whatsoever. Shoplifting of ANY item will be prosecuted of the retailer can provide the proper evidence. I have seen people prosecuting for stealing a pack of gum. There is officer discresion on this, in most states shoplifting CAN be a citation instead of a trip downtown. But, i bet that when it comes down to a guy stealing ammunition then he gets the whole trip. If he is DAMN LUCKY the cop and retailer MIGHT agree to give him his box of .40 and take back the box of .45 allong with a criminal tresspass at the store (can't ever go back in).

Like i said before he's lucky wallmart doesnt aggresively pursue theives like most retailors do.

Chuck Dye
March 20, 2004, 05:04 AM
There is a whole lot of fo'c'sle lawyering here, worth every penny of the price charged.

I agree with c_yeager and caseydog: regardless of whatever clerical and consumer incompetence went into creating it (would anyone really argue that the clerk deliberately mixed the products?), rectifying the balance of ammo paid for and ammo received was accomplished by an act of theft. I also agree that the bigoted generalizations about service sector workers contribute nothing to the discussion and are decidedly NOT on the high road.

spacemanspiff
March 20, 2004, 07:32 AM
not for nothing, but when ever i buy ammo from wallyworld, they ring up each individual box. so if i buy 5 boxes of PMC .45acp, there are five listings for pmc on the reciept. they never scan the same box twice, they scan each one individually.

and if the reciept in this threads story showed five instances of .45 rung up, i'd be inclined to say that they actually rang up five different boxes of .45.

how that one of .40 got in there is a case for the x-files.

tyme
March 20, 2004, 08:21 AM
rileymc, don't count on it. Most store video cameras are terrible. Combined with typical bad angles, etc., the chance of being able to prove a slight difference in box size is rather remote.

I'm not sure it's shoplifting, though. He walked in. He asked to exchange. They seemed to be okay with it, bringing out a box of .45. Only then did they start backtracking. Seems dodgy. I wouldn't want to be the prosecution or plaintiff in either situation - a shoplifting charge or a civil suit against walmart for providing the wrong ammo (which was the other option besides keeping the ammo or going in and making a scene and getting nowhere).

I'm with everyone else who suggested he should have gotten a .40.

c_yeager
March 20, 2004, 08:55 AM
not for nothing, but when ever i buy ammo from wallyworld, they ring up each individual box. so if i buy 5 boxes of PMC .45acp, there are five listings for pmc on the reciept. they never scan the same box twice, they scan each one individually.

Ya know, now that you mention it....

hmm.

And video isnt necessary for a shoplifting conviction. The stores witness is perfectly adequate in most cases. I bet its not just ONE employee that saw him either.

Highland Ranger
March 20, 2004, 08:56 AM
I don't know of any store that accepts returns on ammo, local retailer or internet.

And frankly, I like it that way. I want to buy FACTORY FRESH ammo, not something that has taken a trip to someone else's house and perhaps accidentally had a few reloads mixed in.

Safer for all of us and good policy - just check your ammo on the way out.

(And everyone needs a 40!)

R.H. Lee
March 20, 2004, 09:40 AM
not for nothing, but when ever i buy ammo from wallyworld, they ring up each individual box. so if i buy 5 boxes of PMC .45acp, there are five listings for pmc on the reciept. they never scan the same box twice, they scan each one individually.


The video at the time of purchase would show the clerk scanned 1 box 5 times, while the other clerk put the ammo in the bag=for a total of 4 boxes .45 and one box of .40

If the clerk had been properly trained, he would have scanned each box separately, and none of this would have happened. Both clerks at the time of purchase admitted they had not been trained.

Admittedly, my buddy did a stupid thing. He regrets it and would not do it again. Did he intend to defraud WalMart? No. Has WalMart suffered any damage or loss? No. Sure, you could say they can't sell the box of .40, but that is their decision. If they hadn't given it to my buddy, instead of the .45 he PAID for, they would have it to sell.

ID_shooting
March 20, 2004, 09:57 AM
This thread certianly is entertaining, IMHO, he shoplifted the ammo, I think that has been decided, We all know that WM does not hire "experts" to work in individual depts, Buyer beware certaily applies to every visit I have ahd a WM, the only thing I don't like about the place is the crowds but that is for a differnt discussion.

Now, I am going to bring another twist into the senario.

As for prosocuting, we all know that WM will file charges, it is what they do to discourage people from stealing. As for finding out who the buddy is? well, did he ever serve in the military? does he have a CCW? has he ever been arested? He left his ID at the store in teh form of finger prints on the box or the bag or even the counter if me placed his hands on it. Now, if charges are filed and a warrent is issued, if he has a CCW it will be pulled. Now addmittedly, his state might be differnt than mine, but my CCW states "A county sheriff shal have the power to revoke this license, subsequent to a hearing." So here is the issue:

Said buddy has charges filed against him, the sheriff pulls his CCW, local PD goes to serve the warrant, when the find him, he is carrying, boom, now not only is he picked up for shoplifting, now he has a charge of unlawfully conceeling a weapon. Now I know that this is a stretch, but it is possible and probable depending on where he lives.

If it were me, I would look up online for outstanding warrants by the county, mine posts them at least, he can also call from a pay phone and check, if so, he should turn himself in, that will carry more wieght than doing anything else.

We can argue allday long about what he should have done, but that doesn't go back in time and change things. What we shoudl do, is figure out a way not too lose another gun owner.

general
March 20, 2004, 10:08 AM
I honestly thought I was being over charged - should I "make ammends"?
Pendragon...
You know the answer to that.
the thing about- "...what you have when no-one is looking"

R.H. Lee
March 20, 2004, 10:38 AM
This thread certianly is entertaining, IMHO, he shoplifted the ammo, I think that has been decided,

I don't think that's a foregone conclusion. AFAIK, shoplifting, like any other crime, must be comprised of specific 'elements' to qualify. None of us have sufficient legal training to even list those elements, let alone make a judgement on their merits.

Pendragon
March 20, 2004, 11:44 AM
Ah yes.

Character.

See, its not like I took $10 out of a Wal-Mart register. I saw a product for a certain price (I thought). It rang different, I was unwilling to pay the higher price and said I saw it marked lower. This was done in good faith and if they had not lowered the price, I would have not purchased the item.

I did not need a $30 game pad, $20 was a stretch, but I had returned another item and was using the credit.

So as to the character issue, I do see that point. But I also think the customer/retailer relationship as somewhat adversarial. We shop for the best prices, sometimes you can even negotiate (which is what I essentially did) and sometimes one party loses (as I did when I did not check my ammo).

I took Wal-Mart at their word that they were giving me .45 since that is what I asked for. When I found the error, I could not return the ammo and I did not get upset.

So when I said the gamepad was $20 (which I honestly thought), Wal-Mart could have checked, but they took me at my word and lowered the price.

There was no dishonesty in either case, only accidental mistakes that could have been checked, but neither party considered the $10 in question to be worth checking on.

I think the guy in this thread should have just tried to exchange, then got over it and traded or something.

There have been many cases where I have not been charged for an item at a restaurant and have reminded the wait person to include the item on the check. I do not have a blanket policy of "getting away with" every item I can. If I did, then I think the character maxim would apply.

Caveat emptor for certain - but I think its a two way street.

Declaration Day
March 20, 2004, 11:52 AM
I see these situations from an economic point of view. Though I have not been in this exact situation, I have made mistakes with other products. If it didn't cost much in the first place, I will not make a special trip to take it back. My closest Wal-Mart is about 10 miles away. Since my truck is a monstrous gas guzzler, it's going to cost me $1.50 to get there, and $1.50 to get back. Assuming the box of ammo cost $10, that leaves $7. Now, if I am not doing something I want to do, I might as well be at work. It's going to take me about 45 minutes to make this trip. I earn way more than $7 in 45 minutes while working, so to me, it is not worth it. I might try to return it next time I am going to Wal-Mart for other things, but I rarely go there, and am likely to forget about it by then.:rolleyes: I'd be further ahead giving it to a friend who owns a .40 cal firearm.

Unlucky
March 20, 2004, 01:03 PM
he shoplifted the ammo, I think that has been decided,

Wal-Mart charged the man fo a product then substituted a lesser value product that was not what he asked for, resulting in Wal-Mart getting money they did not "earn." I think we can agree that this was unintentional.

Man goes back to claim his rightful property with documentation provided by WM and the product he was wrongly sold, in original and unused condition.

Man asks to exchange product for the one he rightfully purchased, WM makes up "cock-and-bull" story about federal law (really company policy to protect against liability resulting from tampering), hence man takes what he paid for and leaves lesser product in WM's care.

Where's the shoplifting/theft? The only "theft" I see was WM providing a lesser product in exchange for a more valuble product. Refusing to make amends only compounds the issue.

At face value, assuming that this isn't an account of a lie told by one friend to another, then I fail to see any theft occuring, save the original "theft" by WM.

The idea that taking what's yours is "theft" or poor character seems ludicrous.

BrokenArrow
March 20, 2004, 01:25 PM
A great example of both sides being jerks IMO!

WalMart could have exchanged it, kept a happy customer, and just bitten the bullets.

Your friend was asking for trouble and got lucky. Pretty big risk for $15.

Majic
March 20, 2004, 04:30 PM
Said buddy has charges filed against him, the sheriff pulls his CCW, local PD goes to serve the warrant, when the find him, he is carrying, boom, now not only is he picked up for shoplifting, now he has a charge of unlawfully conceeling a weapon.
They will have to notify you of the suspension of your CCW. Untill you have been dutifully notified (probably by registered mail) your license would still be legal. Also the sheriff's departments are authorized to issue licenses, but do they have the power to revoke one or do a judge or magistrate have to perform that task?

Warpspyder
March 21, 2004, 02:29 AM
I work Loss Prevention for a major clothing retailer. Had I seen this happen, your friend would have been in handcuffs five seconds after he hit the cement.

Unlucky
March 21, 2004, 03:51 AM
Wal-Mart steals from customer = OK

Customer "steals" from Wal-Mart = Not OK

:rolleyes:

md2lgyk
March 21, 2004, 09:23 AM
Well, my local Wal-Mart must be an exception. It even co-sponsors local shooting events.

I've never purchased ammo there other than .22LR (I reload everything else) but did buy a fairly expensive (for Wal-Mart) stereo a couple of years ago. When it died a couple of weeks later I went back to try to exchange it, though figuring I was hosed because I hadn't saved the receipt. After explaining at the CS counter about losing the receipt, the clerk asked me if I could remember the exact day I bought the stereo. When I told her the day and approximate time, she checked some computer records and found the transaction. I got the stereo replaced.

Matthew Courtney
March 21, 2004, 10:34 AM
I work Loss Prevention for a major clothing retailer. Had I seen this happen, your friend would have been in handcuffs five seconds after he hit the cement.

Warpspyder,

I had a punkass mall ninja try that on me once when I would not stop when their buzzer went off. Why should I get hassled just because they forgot to demagnatize what they sold me? I coldcocked the punk and the police came and arrested him.

R.H. Lee
March 21, 2004, 11:05 AM
I work Loss Prevention for a major clothing retailer. Had I seen this happen, your friend would have been in handcuffs five seconds after he hit the cement

If it had been clothing, the whole thing never would have happened-unless returning unused/unopened/undamaged clothing is a "Violation of Federal Law" :D

Viking6
March 21, 2004, 11:08 AM
Hmmmm...whatever happened to an armed society is a polite society. I must be getting old, but there sure seems to a whole lotta drama in the world today.

Warpspyder
March 21, 2004, 02:00 PM
RileyMC-

I have had similar incidents happen actually. It is no different when someone walks in with a size 4 swimsuit and claims that they had paid for a size 6 and wants to exchange it... even though the receipt says size 4 on it.

It is the same type of incident just with a different product. No matter how you slice it, he walked out with unpaid for merchandise. That box of ammo was never rang through the register thus it walked out unpaid for.

Matthew-

Sorry you had the bad experience. There are always bad appels in every career field as im sure you know. My stores policy is to never stop anyone for setting off an alarm. 99.9% of the time its a sales associates fault.

I wouldnt call all Loss Prevention mall ninjas. I myself have POST certification along with three other of my co-workers. We arrest people that police wouldnt dare touch being un-armed. We are what keeps prices down in stores whether youd like to believe it or not. Ive arrested people with loaded handguns, knifes, razors, needles, and the list goes on.

Loss Prevention can be a profession if you choose to make it one. In the field as an agent you can make over 30 dollars an hour plus a lot of benefits.

schromf
March 21, 2004, 02:14 PM
I really think this was handled poorly by both sides. But I do want to note Walmart made NO effort to makes things right. They should at least refunded rto the customer the difference in the price on the two different types of ammo.

EDITED:

Frankly I would have never gotten into this situation, besides not shopping at WalMArt ever. I would have used my credit card for the purchase and I would have immediatly contacted my CC company to stop payment. Then it is back in Walmarts court to argue with the credit card company, and the manager would be trying to resolve the issue.

R.H. Lee
March 21, 2004, 02:32 PM
not to nitpick but

I have had similar incidents happen actually. It is no different when someone walks in with a size 4 swimsuit and claims that they had paid for a size 6 and wants to exchange it... even though the receipt says size 4 on it.


for your story to be analogous, the receipt would have to say 'size 6', although the customer was given a size 4 at the time of purchase.

You got it backwards.
:)

JimJD
March 21, 2004, 06:05 PM
I work Loss Prevention for a major clothing retailer. Had I seen this happen, your friend would have been in handcuffs five seconds after he hit the cement.

:rolleyes:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RileyMc,

Sorry to hear that Wal-Mart pulled something like this.
However, I would not have done what He did. To possibly end up under arrest is not worth the price of a box of ammo. That's just My opinion.
The issue should have been presented to one of the regional offices(if that's what they call them).
If they still do not want to play ball, oh well. I would then try to sell the box of ammo to a friend or another shooter at the range. I know when I purchase anything at any shop, I always double check to see what was given to Me before the sale. Probably because I've worked retail and have seen too many screw-up's during that time.
Meh. It could have been worse.

Reminds Me of one thing though. I was at a W.M. Superstore recently.
First thing I usually do before I shop is go and take a look at the Firearms and whatnot.
A gentleman was trying to purchase a pump shotgun. Clerk gets on the in-store P.A. system and calls for a manager to assist in the sale of said firearm. I then went about My shopping. All the while, same clerk is calling for a manager over and over.
As I'm about to leave, I hear the same clerk calling for the same thing.
Went over there to see if it was the same customer. Yup. It was.
I just shake My head and left for the nearest exit with My purchases. This was about forty-five minutes after the inital request!
Poor Guy.
Must have been one heck of a deal on that Shotgun!

Sisco
March 21, 2004, 06:11 PM
I bought a 10/22 at WalMart for a project gun, had to wait for a "Member of Management". Clerk finally grabbed one as she walked by, but she was reluctant to do it.
As she was escorting me and the rifle out of the store she told me why. Although she is "Management" she doesn't have anything to do with the sporting goods dept. and had only approved gun sales a couple of times. If the yellow form she had approved turned out to be filled out improperly or some other error was made it would come back on her and she could lose her job.

J.J.
March 21, 2004, 06:31 PM
Matthew Courtney

Somehow I do not believe that because if you for no reason punched him when he is trying to do his job, that is called assault and it would be you that would be in trouble, so please do tell why he was arrested.

Matthew Courtney
March 21, 2004, 07:04 PM
Somehow I do not believe that because if you for no reason punched him when he is trying to do his job, that is called assault and it would be you that would be in trouble, so please do tell why he was arrested.

J.J.,

The facts were not disputed by the security gaurd. He, like you, believed he was justified. He was wrong.

He rushed up from behind me and grabbed me without justification and without even identifying himself. I hit him in lawful self defense, reasonably believing that I was being mugged, and I certainly knew I was being attacked.

Louisiana law does allow merchants and their representatives to use force to detain an individual when there is reasonable suspicion to believe that they are shoplifting. The reality that exit alarms are tripped far more frequently due to employee negligence than attempted larceny creates a situation where an exit alarm alone does not create reasonable suspicion.

I had been detained on multiple previous occasions by such geniuses while they searched my bags and filled out forms. I did not mind having my bags checked. I realize that such things help retailers keep costs down. What really pissed me off is that they wouldn't give me my stuff back until they filled out their BS forms, making me stand around and wait. I got sick of it so I looked into exactly what they can and cannot do. If store personell use force againt a person based only on an exit alarm and that person is not shoplifting, they can expect to go to jail, especially if the "suspect" has no larceny type offenses on their record.

The security gaurd in question was arrested for simple battery and disturbing the peace.

Edited to add: Had I known the idiot would attack me I would have stayed home that day. I simply thought that they were bluffing and knew how far they could go. That's what I get for thinking.

Warpspyder
March 21, 2004, 10:55 PM
Matthew-

You are absolutely right... I dont know where you shop but the security sounds like real morons. Id be fired if I tackled someone for setting off a door alarm.

Detaining someone who doesnt actually have stolen merchandise is big time lawsuits in CA... not sure about Lousiana.

c_yeager
March 22, 2004, 02:45 AM
In WA the security person has to witness the subject exit the property with the merchandise. If the person has placed an item in their pocket they must be kept in sight for their ENTIRE time in the store to ensure that the merchandise isnt dropped before they leave. Noone in their right mind tackles someone for tripping a door alarm. I've had people ask me to stop and go back when i have set one of. I usually do it unless they are being a jerk about it, then i keep walking.

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