Friendship Finals

June 17, 2013, 05:35 PM
Yes we did it!!! Wife took the Women's National Pistol Championship for the
9th year. I go lucky and won the "As Issue" Revolver Championship and got
First in the 13 shot Repical Revolver match. This is 13 shots on the International
25 yd target. The "10" ring is only about a inch in dia. I used my Euroarms
Remington both. Shot well, but got very tired. Wife also won the 25 shots 50 yd
Match and the 50 yd re-entry. You really don't want to mess with her on those
50 yd matches. We had a GREAT time. Glad to be back home.

Daughter did not shoot this trip. She is getting more and more into music.

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June 17, 2013, 06:58 PM
Seein' fotos of you two together, havin' what looks to me like a blast!...and readin' about your shooting accomplishments...I gotta tell ya...IT MAKES ME PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN!!! WAY TO GO!!!

Kindest Regards,

4v50 Gary
June 17, 2013, 08:17 PM
Kudos to wife.

June 17, 2013, 08:46 PM
So try out for the 2014 World Championships! We need all the shooters we can get. BTW, the venue has changed - Granada, Spain, not South Africa.

June 18, 2013, 05:35 PM

June 18, 2013, 06:09 PM
Great stuff! I really want to get out there one of these years.

Shanghai McCoy
June 19, 2013, 01:48 AM
Congratulations to you both !

June 19, 2013, 05:07 PM

I was out with my two 1860's over the past week doing some serious bullseye shooting to check the my newly installed taller front sight mods. The pistols are certainly capable of better than I can manage. The long sight baseline made me look like I had palsy while I watched the front blade jerking and wandering over what seemed like all of Hell's Half Acre :D So when I see you two doing so well in competitions I know what it takes to hold the gun that steady and I'm highly impressed.

June 20, 2013, 08:39 AM
Great shooting Kwhi!!!! Is that the same Remington you showed a pics of few weeks ago on here? Seeing other posts about Friendship and other people's pictures of the competition it looks like all of the target shooters there were mostly using Remingtons.
June 20, 2013, 10:47 AM
Yes it is. In the "As Issue" matches everybody I know and see uses a Remington
"As Issue means you must use what was issued to the troops in the Civil War.
You cannot do anything to the revolver except put on a taller front sight. Then
It has to be the little flat half moon. Cannot be over .080 thick. No trigger stops
But the actions can be slicked up. Revolvers half to be inspected by the range
Master and a sticker attached. In the open revolver matches most use the
Ruger. Most have been converted to .36 caliber. I have never seen a Colt type
Being used in the 22 years I have been shooting there. Either balls or bullets
Are allowed. I have never seen or heard of anybody using bullets. Funny when
I read on forums that some say the bullet is more accurate . If this were so don't
You think they would use them at Friendship?. Also I read that some think 30
Or 35 grs is more accurate. I know what charges are shot at Friendship and
Believe me 22 is about the most I haver heard used. I use 18 grs Swiss. Also
Wads or grease cookies. Believe me NO body uses this. It hurts accuracy.
I get a really good laugh when I read about you want to shave a ring off the ball
When seating. Nothing could be farther from the truth. You want to Swege the
Ball into the chamber not shave it. This is how we do it at Friendship where
Accuracy is what everybody is there for. Creme-of-wheat is used as a filler.
Lube is put over the ball. Caps fit the nipples.

June 20, 2013, 01:38 PM
Doesn't surprise me. You see the same thing both at the N-SSA Nationals and the MLAIC World Championships. I did arms inspection for one day at the 2012 Worlds. An interesting experience, but the revolvers were dull. Just one Remington (usually Hege) after another. The occasional FWB Rogers & Spencer.

And the loads were always the same....454 or .457 round ball, Cream of Wheat (or local equivalent), 12-25 grains of powder. Lube on top of the bullet.

June 20, 2013, 08:56 PM
Sure is a nice looking banjo in that last picture.
June 20, 2013, 09:55 PM
The fellow sitting next to my daughter Howard Kelly made it. He also makes fiddles. He gave us a CD he made of old time fiddle tunes. He is always at
Friendship same place every year. He makes barrels also. Here is another picture of it. (

June 21, 2013, 09:36 AM
Agreed kwhi, however not all black powder shooters are looking for max accuracy but are balancing accuracy with stopping power (penetration). Like rifles, every revolver is an individual in its own right and shouldn't the shooter 'Find' the load his revolver shoots the best according to the ultimate use the owner wants? As an example, if I'm getting award winning groups with 20 grains and a 451 ball but that same load only punches half way through a phone book that may be not what I'm satisfied with for my revolver. However, if I jump up to 35 grains and a 454 or 457 ball that 'rings' while loading and from that load I may be getting only a 2" group at that same distance but it blasts apart that same size phone book, which load would I use to hunt with? Which load would I use to compete with?

June 21, 2013, 10:37 AM
I think most target shooters use small powder charges has more to do with shootabilty than accuracy.I am almost certain that if you put a gun in a machine rest you would find that most guns would in fact be more accurate with a heavier charge for several reasons.As to almost no one useing anything but remingtons,target shooters are notorius for following fades of a sort.There is no eason a properly tuned colt would not be just as accurate as a remington.As you said on another thred, a large number of the pro's use the hedge remingtons.Im guessing those are far more tuned than a italian import.For one im sure the chambers are all reamed the exact same size and have the proper match to barrel lands and grooves.That being the case then not shaving a lead ring would make total sense.They more than likely have match barrels and proper forcing cones and things like that.That would be a whole diffrent animal compared to the average remington imports that most of us shoot.And, if round ball were more accurate than bullets then modern cartrage guns would be loaded with them too,lol.Its just that for several reasons most of the imports are not properly set up for conicals.Another reason targets shooters would not use bullets is the same as heavy powder charges,shootabilty or lower recoil that will not break the shooters concentration. I remember years ago when shooting in police combat pistol matches with custom K-38's, that it was common to see wad cutters barely stuck into the wood frame around the targets, thats how low many of the reloads were loaded.As good as you are doing with your compatition i bet you would be even better when you get a hedge!
June 21, 2013, 11:23 AM
This Remington fad has been going on for around 70 years that I know of.
That's what dominated the pistol line in the 1930's. Don't get me wrong. I love
The Colt's. The 1851 Navy and 1860 Army are GREAT!! If I shot my Navy like
I do my Remington I would use it. But I don't and neither does anyone else.
If anyone thinks bullets and heavy charges are more accurate, please come
To Friendship and show us. We have a open mind. We are willing to learn
Just show us. The proof is in the pudding. Here's a little round ball and light
Charges at 25 yds. 10 of them. Show me yours.

June 21, 2013, 01:43 PM
That's some tasty pudding!

Kindest Regards,

June 21, 2013, 04:27 PM
That is an excelent group by anyones standards.Dont get me wrong, if i was shooting that type of match i would chose a remington also simply because they dont require as much to tune them and the sights are better.However, i do not agree that real lights loads are nessesarily more accurate, mostly just more shootable in a match where you have to shoot a lot of shots.I have seen people that can shoots groups just as good as the target shown that were done with a NAA single action in 454.And at some other types of matches where the 1911 raines king does not mean a sig or browning high power will not shoot as good or better,fad has more to do with target shooting than a lot of people think.Also in the as issued matches the idea is that the guns be close to what were used in the civil war era.I am pretty sure if you were going to try and keep that image then 18 to 20 gr loads are not in keeping with that at all. But that type thing has been a lot of conflict in other type matches too like diffrent types of combat shooting matches.I am not down playing what you do at al.I think it looks like great fun and you are obviously very skilled at it.I am just not agreeing that your ideas on whatis accurate, such as tiny loads and balls that dont shave a ring as being laughable. That may well be in the type guns you shoot in the way you do it for that type of match but does not nessesarilly hold true with the typical untuned revolver shot in the way most people use them.Please dont take me wrong, i admire what you do and very much enjoyed you sharing your shoot and how you and your wife go about it!

June 21, 2013, 07:33 PM
That's a very impressive group. The best I've ever managed in N-SSA competition was a 99-4X - which that beats by a country mile.

June 21, 2013, 10:34 PM
That is a very nice target! Was that off hand or from a bench?
June 21, 2013, 10:39 PM
Offhand. One hand hold un-supported.

June 21, 2013, 10:52 PM
Wow !!! Very impressive, I've only been shooting a Remington for a couple years and my best is a 94-4x. Other then a tuned revolver and light loads (which I use) what advice would you have for a developing shooter?
June 22, 2013, 12:27 AM
Attend matches. You Need competition to get better. Keep your eye on that
Front sight. Use a center hold instead of 6:00. If you don't plan to shoot any
"As Issue" matches install a trigger stop. As long as that front is in the black
Keep squeezing . The worst you can get is a 9. Nobody holds dead still. If you
Can't get the shot off in 5 seconds, drop the gun down and start over. Come
In on the black from the top of the paper, not from the bottom up. Lay a dime
Flat on the barrel right behind the front sight. Hold the pistol out and dry fire.
Practice this until the dime remains on the barrel. Keep both eyes open if you
Can. Lay off the beer the night before a match. Get plenty of rest. Good Luck.

June 22, 2013, 12:45 AM
Thank you Phil. I am pretty much following your advice but need more competition and dry firing. Do you dry fire with your competition revolver? If so do you change out the nipples? If not do you have the same sight picture and trigger pull on your "dry fire" revolver? I have been using an IZH 46 match grade air pistol, and it has been helping, but I'm not sure the different sight picture and trigger pull are making it as helpfull as it should. How much dry/live fire are you doing per week?


June 22, 2013, 01:15 PM
Take one nipple out. Dry fire 10 a day with the dime on the barrel.

June 22, 2013, 06:52 PM
Also, go over to Read. Read more. Then head to and read all the coaching information.

FWIW, I'm now using a deep sub-six hold for revolver.

June 23, 2013, 12:14 AM
Phil and Mike - Thank you both for the help!

June 30, 2013, 07:24 AM
Kwhi,Phil,Mike, i know great groups like Kwhi posted are mostly due to the person shooting, but i was wondering,in your experiance do most remingtons shoot pretty good out of the box or are there certain things you have to do to them to improve accuracy? I assume a slick up on the trigger is a givin. Are there a lot of custom barrels put on the common Pietta's,Umberti's,ASM, or do the factory barrels normally shoot that well for most of you guys? I know Kwhi had said that the German gun,(cant think of the brand right off),were used by a lot of shooters but wondering how well the more common ones compared.What is really amazing to me is that groups like Kwhi's are done with the factory sites.I know the remington sites far surpass those on a colt but they are still a long ways from being target sites, especially for some of us old geezers.
June 30, 2013, 12:57 PM
Well first kwhi & me are the same person. I know some of the guys at Friendship
Use the stock Uberti's and win. The Pietta barrel uses a lot slower twist. Except
For the shooter's model with the silver trigger guard. Now it will shoot. I know
A nice lady from Ohio who uses one and wins. What we have at Friendship is
A group of people who can shoot very well with most anything. They make it
Look easy. But to answer your question, yes a out of the box with a little
Slicking up, Remington will be good enough. The biggest one thing on the
Open revolver matches you can do to improve accuracy is to add a trigger stop

June 30, 2013, 02:30 PM
Sorry Phil,i didnt realize you were the same person, i am a little slow,lol.That is amazing.It says two things then, you guys are very good shooters first off and it also says alot that a gun like the remington is more of a deal than i thought for a gun that costs so little compared to a cartridge revolver.This also tells me that when i hear a lot of guys saying their gun shoots 4 or 5 inch groups at 20 yards that it is mostly shooters error and not so much the gun. It is great your wife is involved in the shooting with you too,or is it you are involved with shooting with her? LoL. My wife loves to shoot also but we mostly just shoot in the yard and hunt a little. I will have to check around and see if there are some BP matches around my area, i would love to go watch.
June 30, 2013, 05:24 PM
No, don't go and watch. Get in there and join them. I know some very good
Pistol shots from your state. Don't ever get discouraged. Even if you can't keep
10 shots on the paper at 25 yds. Good pistol shots will think nothing of it.
We all had to start sometime. Nobody will laugh or make any comments. We
Are adults. Just load your piece correctly, be safe. No wads, or 40 grs of powder.
Watch what others do, especially the winners. Enjoy and have fun

June 30, 2013, 08:00 PM
Kituwa, there are a lot of tricks you can use.

A trigger job is a necessity unless you are shooting a Hege Maximum or FWB Rogers & Spencer. A lot of the lower-end guns are rebarreled, but not essential. A recut, trued forcing cone is often done. Probably the biggest headache is truing up the chambers with the bore. The lower-end Italian repros are a lot of gun for the dollar, but they are definitely made to a price point. And will only have one or two chambers that align properly with the bore. A lot of people will shoot only one chamber - MLAIC rules don't allow this, but N-SSA rules (and NMLRA rules, I think) do. A trigger stop is useful IF the rules allow it - again, MLAIC rules don't.

And Phil is absolutely right. Shoot. Shoot some more. Compete. You think we leapt out of the crib as masters? And learn from the good shooters.

July 5, 2013, 01:57 AM
I dont think there are any matches close to where i live.North Alabama maybe but i live in the 3rd world country of lower Alabama,lol.I can actually shoot plenty good, not saying i would go in a take over but wouldnt be embarrased i dont think.My health would make it hard on me now i think. I cant be in the sun for long at all.I have a very serious case of lupus so i have to avoid sunlight plus many days my hands are so swelled up its even hard for me to hold my coffee cup.I also have seizers from it at times, and i have to take so many drugs that i cant concentrate well sometimes too.I do have days that i do fairly well but i never know ahead of time if i can walk or if the only way i can get around is with a cane, crutches or a wheel chair.Not a big deal for me because i love to just watch other shoot too.I have a son that loves to shoot and he is my best friend too, he makes sure that he will drive me to something like a match, hunting or to take me fishing.Phil said that most of them want balls that dont cut a ring for that type of matches.That tells me that the chamber have been reamed larger because most stock guns already have too small of chambers so if they are not cutting lead rings its about a sure thing they have been reamed.Was said something about caps that fit. That is something i had not realized was important for accuracy but that is not a hard thing to remedy by useing better nipples.I find this stuff interesting because even a lot of us that will never shoot in those type matches would still like to have some of things things that make the guns shoot better just for our own satisfaction when shooting a target in out own backyard or their club range on the weekend.Another question for you match shooters,,Do you find you can shoot well with one hand or is a two hand hold pretty much nesessary to shoot tight groups off hand at 25 yards?I know you cant hold a gun steady off hand so you must be useing hand eye coordination, where you almost subconciouslly see when the sights move across the bull and you finger squeezes when your mind recognizes the right picture.
July 5, 2013, 09:04 AM
Most all of our matches. Require you to just use one hand un-supported. All of
the targets that Ihave posted were shot this way. At Friendship there are matches that are for 60 and older that let you use a Red Dot sight and I think
They are two hand . Will post the matches sometime this morning. Also the
100 yd match you can use two hands. When the wife won the 100 yd match,
She used one hand. I cannot shoot near as good with two hands as I can with
just one. Neither can the daughter. It's a lot easier for us to hold one hand
Out still than to hold two hands out. There is a club in SC. I will find the name
And where it is. The maker of some of our target pistols lives in SC John Mouzon
I can't walk very well either. My wife has to post all my targets. There is always
Someone at ranges to help. Would love to see you at Friendship next year. It
Is usually the 3rd the week of June. I have seen people in wheel chairs go to
The line at Friendship and load their pistols Then stand up and shoot, then sit
Back down. I have seen them walk to the line on crutches also. I have Bells
Palsy and still can' hardly see out of my right eye. I just had to learn another
Way to aim. You just have to learn to adapt as your body changes. I almost
Quit 4 months ago because of my health, but the wife and daughter got all
Over my case and wouldn't let me. Neither would my friends. I don't shoot as
I once did . But the old blind hog finds a acorn once in a while. Please don't
Ever give up. Just enjoy your shooting for your sake. Your friends are your
Biggest assets. Phil
July 5, 2013, 02:33 PM
July 5, 2013, 02:48 PM

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