Side-folding, accurate .308


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Shmackey
June 19, 2013, 12:28 PM
I'm looking for a semi-auto chambered in .308, with a side-folding stock, capable of 1 moa at 100 yards, for under $2500. Here are the side-folding .308 options I can think of:

FAL Para
VEPR/AK variants
SCAR
PTR/G3 variants
M1a in new stock


I love the FAL, but I assume it would be cost-prohibitive to get it 1-moa accurate. The AK stuff is more like >3 moa in my experience. The SCAR is cost-prohibitive. The PTR/G3 stuff could probably be made accurate enough, but (like the FAL), it might cost too much to do it. The M1a, if I can find a used one, might be the most logical choice--but I have the least experience with that platform.

Are there any rifles missing from my list? Anything I'm overlooking in my thinking above?

Thanks!

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allaroundhunter
June 19, 2013, 12:33 PM
Why the requirement of 1 MOA? Will you be handloading or must that be shot with factory ammo?

IMO, far too many people seem enamored with the whole '1 MOA at 100 yards' gig. You see looking at battle rifles, none are designed to shoot that we'll at your price point. If you want a gun that shoots that well and has a side-folding stock then get a Remington 700 and drop it into an AICS 2.0 chassis.

Trent
June 19, 2013, 12:37 PM
The SCAR won't reliably cut 1MOA with match grade ammo. ALMOST, but not quite. I shot two 10 shot 2.5" groups prone and from the bench Sunday at 200 yards, practicing for a match, and I was fully "in the zone."

I *did* hold Sub MOA on the same course with an FNAR, with the same ammo and set up (no bipod, no bags). But it doesn't side fold.

Don't get me wrong, the SCAR is a great platform, and it's very accurate, but not as accurate as some. I will tell you it's a breeze to clean (you don't really HAVE to do anything but the bore, the damn thing does NOT get dirty). I've got 1,000 rounds of dirty surplus out of mine and the only thing I've ever had to do to the BCG is wipe it down and put a thin film of oil back on it.

You want something "man portable" semi-auto that's capable of 1MOA with a 20 round box mag, on a budget (relatively), get an FNAR. They're fugly, but MAN can those rifles shoot.

WardenWolf
June 19, 2013, 12:50 PM
The VEPR .308 can do right around 1 MOA with the right ammo. It likes lighter-weight bullets in the 135-145-grain twist range. It can handle up to 155 with acceptable accuracy. The only problem is its angle-cut receiver, but this can be mitigated with an adapter block that will let you use standard AK stocks.

Shmackey
June 19, 2013, 12:53 PM
I do handload, so factory ammo is not required. In fact I can't recall the last time I bought factory .308. :)

Why 1 moa? Just because I'm an accuracy geek and I like to make these things difficult. I don't really _need_ a new rifle. I do have a Rem 700 that shoots 3/4 moa. Granted, it's not in a folding stock, but the 24" barrel makes it a big rifle no matter what.

I keep hearing great things about the FNARs. Haven't shot one but am now a big fan of FN pistols. Holy crap those are ugly rifles, though....

adelbridge
June 19, 2013, 12:55 PM
probably an accurized M1A with aftermarket stock is your best bet or maybe you might get a screamer DSA FAL by luck. If you decided on collapsing vs. side folding and AR-10 is your best bet. I have my AR-10 down under an inch and it is pretty much the only stock battle rifle that can consistently deliver MOA in that price range ($1500 would probably get you an MOA AR-10)

Shmackey
June 19, 2013, 01:16 PM
Yeah, apparently an AR-10 variant that shoots 1 moa is pretty much the norm. And I've already got a handful of other ARs that I can run in my sleep. I'm kind of an AR snob, though. Some of those DPMS rifles are supposed to be absolute tack drivers, but ... DPMS. :)

Really what I should do is give up on the folding stock and go get an RRA. (I got past my AR snobbery for RRA once I shot their 9mm AR, which I now own.) But then the answer would be easy. :)

Anyone know what's involved in "accurizing" an FAL?

JustinJ
June 19, 2013, 01:19 PM
The VEPR .308 can do right around 1 MOA with the right ammo. It likes lighter-weight bullets in the 135-145-grain twist range. It can handle up to 155 with acceptable accuracy.

I've heard this claim quite a bit but never seen evidence of it, outside of people who pull off an occasional 3 round group under 1". With enough work and money i'm sure one could pull it off but out of the box i'm highly skeptical.

Trent
June 19, 2013, 02:11 PM
I've heard this claim quite a bit but never seen evidence of it, outside of people who pull off an occasional 3 round group under 1". With enough work and money i'm sure one could pull it off but out of the box i'm highly skeptical.

As am I.

When I shoot groups, I shoot 10 shot groups (or 15 or 20, with an F-Class rifle). The only exception is working up loads, I do 5 shot groups on those, but then put 10 more out to confirm if I find something that groups better than the rest.

You don't get a large enough sample size with 3 shot groups to determine diddly squat. And people are oh-so-ever-prone to calling "flyers." There is no such thing as a flyer. You flinch, you flinch. Jerk the trigger? Get a muscle spasm? Too damn bad. Gust of wind picks up? Too bad.

It all counts. :)

If you show me an AR10 that will shoot Sub MOA 10-shot groups every time, and I'll believe it. I have YET to see one. I saw a Les Baer custom that came damn close, but when the guy moved up to 10 shot groups (from 3), it was clear that the barrel was stressed with uneven carbon; the groups opened up and walked off as the barrel warmed.

My SCAR17S is damn close. But not quite there, even with Sierra 168gr matchkings going out the pipe. (I can see why the Military guys love them so much, though, it's light, and fast, and has no recoil, yet remarkably it's still easily an 800 yard gun.)

M1A's? Sure there's some national match sub-MOA M14's, that's proven at Camp Perry every year. But they're big and heavy and expensive for what you get. MOST M1A's I've fired are nowhere CLOSE to sub-MOA. Or MOA. Or even 2 MOA. :)

That FNAR is the only semiauto 308 I've ever shot that WILL hold sub-MOA, ever single time, on 10 shot groups. It may be really ugly, but man.. it's a shooter. And it costs less than all the others I mentioned. (Pre SH, I saw them sitting out on Gunbroker for $900 ...)

HJ857
June 19, 2013, 03:57 PM
There is a side folding option for the FNAR. You need the receiver block adapter, which has been out of stock forever, the side folding adapter and then whatever stock you want for it, either AK or AR style, if AR type you'll need the pignose adapter and a commercial diameter tube. There's a number of options.

http://riflestocks.com/store/product111.html

JShirley
June 19, 2013, 04:02 PM
I have a FN-FAL, and it is one of the few sub-MOA-capable ones out there (custom 24" heavy barrel). I suppose I'd sell it for $2500 with no optics and 1 mag, if someone local picked it up.

Your problems:

>Finding one that folds
>Finding one that accurate for your price point.

The SPR version DSA sells has something like a $5K MSRP.

WardenWolf
June 19, 2013, 05:02 PM
Like I said about the 16" VEPR .308, they can be right around 1 MOA and they can be had for around $1000 right now on Gunbroker. They're a good deal. They also only weigh 8 pounds empty, versus 8.8 pounds for an M1A SOCOM or 8.5-10 pounds for an AR-10. The overall package is very attractive due to its accuracy, cost, and weight. If you want a practical rifle, it's hard to beat it. If you want precision, you can do better by spending a bit more on an AR10.

Trent
June 19, 2013, 05:45 PM
I have a FN-FAL, and it is one of the few sub-MOA-capable ones out there (custom 24" heavy barrel). I suppose I'd sell it for $2500 with no optics and 1 mag, if someone local picked it up.

Your problems:

>Finding one that folds
>Finding one that accurate for your price point.

The SPR version DSA sells has something like a $5K MSRP.

That's the problem with AR-10's, FAL's, etc.

Generally, shops (and private sellers) don't let you shoot them first to see how well they shoot. :)

It really is a crap shoot on the barrels / action; luck of the draw. Are there AR-10's, FAL's, etc that shoot good? Yes. But there's 99% more that will shoot 2-3 MOA. :)

Savage is kind of the same way. I've bought many new Savage rifles - ONE of them shoots .3 MOA (22-250). Most of them shoot about 1 MOA. But ... I once had a brand new police model 308 which couldn't hit the broad side of the barn, and would literally walk itself off of a 24" target by the 6th shot due to uneven heat expansion in the barrel.

Of the above mentioned ones, at least with AR-10's you have the option (albeit, expensive option) of (relatively) easily swapping the barrels out until you get one that shoots. :)

It took me a long, long time to finally get an AR-15 set up that's sub MOA. I guess, the good news is, I have 9 spare barrels in the basement which are not-quite-as-accurate.

At the end of the day, you can make any of the platform's as accurate as your wallet is deep.

Which is why the FNAR makes so much sense. You *know* going in that it's going to shoot. And you won't have to spend extra money to get there.

adelbridge
June 19, 2013, 06:03 PM
AR-10 SR25 pattern $1500

Lilja 24" bull barrel $500

sell take off barrel for $300

add good trigger from timney, Geiselle etc $200
5 shot groups Sierra match king 168 .8MOA

allaroundhunter
June 19, 2013, 06:11 PM
5 shot groups Sierra match king 168 .8MOA

Spending that kind of money.... A better group would be required for me.

Otherwise I would just buy a LaRue OBR and take the guaranteed .5 MOA.

Shmackey
June 19, 2013, 06:13 PM
AR-10 SR25 pattern $1500

Does this necessarily mean DPMS?

stubbicatt
June 19, 2013, 06:43 PM
Good luck in your choice. I rarely shoot it so as to not degrade accuracy, but the PTR91 with 155 grain Amax bullets and a load of H4895 that it likes will deliver 3 rounds in an inch at a hundred. At least it did it one time. I rarely shoot it at paper, but in load development I did, and that's what I got.

I also shot a prairie dog on the run at just over 400 yards, on the second shot, using a 4x Fero Z24 scope in claw mounts.

Can I say that this accuracy is the norm with the PTR91? No. I cannot. Mine is one of the early JLD rifles with the tight chamber and match barrel, and it will shoot very well. Mine doesn't like tar sealed milsurp, and won't function with it at all. Some see that as a handicap, and disqualify the rifle as a result. I respect that decision. I can only tell you that I have pared my "military styled sporting rifles" down to just one. And it will be one of the last rifles I will ever sell.

Of your other choices, the FNAR is about the only one I would say can routinely hit the 1" mark time and again, example after example. Any of the others is a roll of the dice.

Good luck.

Ar180shooter
June 19, 2013, 08:16 PM
Spending that kind of money.... A better group would be required for me.

Otherwise I would just buy a LaRue OBR and take the guaranteed .5 MOA.
Except that build is $1900, close to $1.5k less than a 7.62 LaRue OBR.

MechAg94
June 19, 2013, 08:59 PM
I don't think I could shoot a 10 shot sub-MOA group so I don't really see the point. I have done plenty of 5 shot groups, but 10 is asking for a lot of error free shooting on my part.

Personally, I wouldn't believe any 308 production semi-auto gun without a lot of individual smith time and hand loads would would do so each and every time. Now, are a lot of platforms capable of that in the right circumstances, ammo, and build out? Sure. Asking that out of the box for "any old version" of a platform seems silly to me. On top of that, you want a side folding stock which is generally not put on accurized models and usually means a short barrel for shorter range action.

Maybe I am reading your question wrong.

csspecs
June 19, 2013, 10:24 PM
Vepr and saiga are in the 2" to 4" grouping range at 100 yards. As are most of the rifles listed in the OP.

I have two 5 round groups from both a vepr and saiga rifle that are under 1.75" with brown bear ammo.. However it is not easily repeatable.

Its more an increased range/power AK then anything else.

That said you better get buying mags right now, as you'll be stuck with 15s shortly.

Outlaw Man
June 19, 2013, 10:34 PM
Get a LaRue and add on one of those newfangled folding stock adapters (or do they make those for 7.62 ARs yet?). It's only money. :D

I'd probably go with the 700 and good folding stock if I was dead set on a folder.

Or the Barrett MRAD. It's only about double the LaRue... :neener:

Trent
June 19, 2013, 11:46 PM
Heck go with a SAKO TRG24 or 42 military model. It's got a side folding stock and easily holds 1 MOA.

Granted, it's not semi-auto. But 1MOA rifles only need one shot.

It's also only $6500...

The problem with a side-folding stock on a semi, they aren't going to be conducive to long range, accurate shooting. The SCAR is the closest out of the box. You can get there with others, with parts, and time. But.. application? Why dead set on a sidefolder with 1MOA?

A 2 MOA rifle is perfectly capable of dropping game out to 500 yards. (The 4 legged variety, or the other). And, pretty much all in your list fit that bill.

When you start talking about longer range, a fixed stock that can be customized to fit you (winter or summer), a nice heavy match barrel, a stock that's not a featherweight synthetic, and a big expensive scope are really what you need.

Ergo, I wouldn't bring my F class rifle to a 3 gun match, or vice/versa.

Practical application. Engagement range, target hardness, combine to dictate caliber, platform, and accessories.

Domino
June 20, 2013, 12:29 AM
I think most DPMS LR-308's will shoot sub MOA with good ammo. I have a B model with 18" bull barrel and it will shoot groups these tight (5 shots @ 100 yards) with 168g Amax and a consistent powder charge...

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a57/Mudd262/Untitled.jpg (http://s9.photobucket.com/user/Mudd262/media/Untitled.jpg.html)

Yeah no folding stock but you can get collapsible stocks or take the lower off for space saving. YMMV....

sentinel89
June 20, 2013, 09:43 PM
If you are willing to wait a few months, Sig is coming out with their 716 in a PRM with an 18" barrel. I shot a demo model and it grouped sub MOA at 100yds suppressed with Federal 168 grain Gold Medal. Recoil wasn't that bad but the suppressor seemed pointless as it wasn't very quiet.

Willie Sutton
June 20, 2013, 09:51 PM
"capable of 1 moa at 100 yards"


Not to be a pedant, but that is a statement from the "Department of Redundancy Department"... ;)

1 MOA is 1 MOA: One minute of angle. That does not change with range. It just happens to subtend about an inch at 100 yards.

Contemplate a good M1a as your choice. Scratch your head over a .308 Galil or Valmet as well. Both can be great shooters.



Willie


.

allaroundhunter
June 20, 2013, 10:44 PM
Not to be a pedant, but that is a statement from the "Department of Redundancy Department"...

1 MOA is 1 MOA: One minute of angle. That does not change with range. It just happens to subtend about an inch at 100 yards.

Except that just because a gun will shoot 1 MOA at 100 yards doesn't mean it will continue to do so at longer ranges. I don't see the redundancy here.

He is saying that he wants it to be able to shoot 1 MOA at 100 yards, but doesn't say that it has to at 200 yards.

Trent
June 20, 2013, 11:05 PM
Except that just because a gun will shoot 1 MOA at 100 yards doesn't mean it will continue to do so at longer ranges. I don't see the redundancy here.

He is saying that he wants it to be able to shoot 1 MOA at 100 yards, but doesn't say that it has to at 200 yards.

Ok .. I'm not trying to be a negative nancy here but ... if a firearm shoots 1 MOA at 100 yards, it's on trajectory to shoot 1 MOA at 500 yards.

PROVIDED the shooter knows how to read the wind, use the sights properly, etc. AND the velocity is consistent.

allaroundhunter
June 20, 2013, 11:29 PM
Ok .. I'm not trying to be a negative nancy here but ... if a firearm shoots 1 MOA at 100 yards, it's on trajectory to shoot 1 MOA at 500 yards.

PROVIDED the shooter knows how to read the wind, use the sights properly, etc. AND the velocity is consistent.

It isn't just the velocity, everything about each round (including the shooter's actions) have to be consistent; but yes, we are on the same page, I am just factoring the shooter in when the OP did just specify the firearm, my bad :o


There is a reason that I hate the "1 MOA at 100 yards" and "1 inch at 100 yards" requirements :banghead: How many shots counts as a group? Does every single group have to be MOA, or just a single one? I could go on but, I digress...

Trent
June 21, 2013, 12:56 AM
It isn't just the velocity, everything about each round (including the shooter's actions) have to be consistent; but yes, we are on the same page, I am just factoring the shooter in when the OP did just specify the firearm, my bad :o


There is a reason that I hate the "1 MOA at 100 yards" and "1 inch at 100 yards" requirements :banghead: How many shots counts as a group? Does every single group have to be MOA, or just a single one? I could go on but, I digress...

We could really split hairs and say "a rifle shooting a properly spin stabilized bullet at one MOA precision is capable of doing so up until the final transsonic boundary is approached."

E.g. a 338 Lapua capable of one MOA can do so out to around a mile, while a 22 LR might only do so for a very short distance. A 22-250 starts out fast but doesn't have the mass to stay high velocity past about 800 yards. A 223, even less. While a 223 80 grain bullet pushed out of a 1:11 twist barrel isn't spin stabilized, so it MAY shoot one MOA at 100 yards but keyhole, and certainly not one MOA at 200 yards.

Another factor is a damaged crown or extreme throat erosion, which can tip the bullet at time of ignition or egress from the muzzle, that imparts an initial ballistic spiral which damps out with range; those rifles may shoot poorly at 50 or 100 yards but tighten up at 200+.

No matter, once the final supersonic threshold is approached (mach 1), the "bubble" at the nose of the bullet destabilizes and the projectile will do all sorts of funky stuff (that's the technical term, BTW.) :)

So, a rifle that shoots one MOA will continue to do so.

Usually. :)

allaroundhunter
June 21, 2013, 12:57 AM
That's a good word to leave it at, "usually". As long as we don't get too much more technical than that and "funky", I'll be able to keep up ;)

Trent
June 21, 2013, 01:09 AM
That's a good word to leave it at, "usually". As long as we don't get too much more technical than that and "funky", I'll be able to keep up ;)

Sorry. I'm an engineer. To me, the excitement is in the details and the data. :)

Which is why earlier I inquired about 'practical application.'

If this is for a 'Homeland Defense' rifle, drop the folding stock from the requirements. Unless Uncle Larry owns a cargo plane you aren't going to be paratrooping behind enemy lines. Nor, would there likely be "lines", if we ended up in that scenario.

I'd also drop the 1 MOA requirement too. Engagement ranges in a "homeland defense" scenario are likely to be short, mostly urban. A 5 MOA battle weary SKS is just as effective as a $3000 SCAR, in that situation. If you live out in the wide open plains or mountains, get a bolt gun. Engagement ranges are far enough away semi-auto won't matter.

Aaaanywho, I'll shut up now before I run afoul of the rules.

allaroundhunter
June 21, 2013, 01:15 AM
Trent, you're talking to a 4th year engineering student ;)

I'm good with technical stuff, and I like it, I also know that if I get too tech ical I start to lose people ;)

SilentStalker
June 21, 2013, 02:11 PM
Heck go with a SAKO TRG24 or 42 military model. It's got a side folding stock and easily holds 1 MOA. Granted, it's not semi-auto. But 1MOA rifles only need one shot. It's also only $6500...
originally posted by Trent


^^^^This. My Sako TRG22 consistently shoots 1/4MOA from a bench shooting 168 grain Hornady Amax or Zmax ammo. In other words, it far exceeds my performance. Battle rifles aren't really for accuracy IMO. I mean I see where you are coming from in wanting them to especially considering the price but they just aren't designed for that. If you want extreme accuracy then a good bolt rifle is the way to go.

Trent
June 21, 2013, 05:34 PM
originally posted by Trent


^^^^This. My Sako TRG22 consistently shoots 1/4MOA from a bench shooting 168 grain Hornady Amax or Zmax ammo. In other words, it far exceeds my performance.

Yup, I've read a LOT of really good things about them.

I'm saving up for one - those SAKO's are supposed to be phenomenal. I'm wanting the TRG42, in a 338 Lapua though. I've already got really good rifles in 308 and 300WM (Steyer SSG 69 and a custom 300wm w/ Krieger barrel)

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