[cheapsk8]

As I am getting my first .40 S&W, I am planning my reloading endeavors while I am waitng for the gun. I first was looking for powders I have on hand and I noticed Longshot made "major" in .40, according to Hodgdon. I normally use this in 28 gauge, and have tried it in .44 Mag. Love it in the shotgun, was unimpressed in the pistol.

However, check out this data from Hodgdon:

http://www.hodgdon.com/data/pistol/longshot/40sw.htm

Notice 1329 FPS from a 4 inch bbl with a 155gr!!!

1160 FPS with a 180gr!!!

10mm... almost, at least modern loads.

I`m excited since I have this powder on hand. I don`t think there is much chance of a double charge with this powder at 10 gr(I have to check).

I think 155grs is best for my uses. Has anyone tried this powder?
What did you think?

cheapsk8

[1911Tuner]

BEEEE careful when approaching maximum loads and don't expect your
gun and your lot of powder and your lot of primers and your lot of
bullets to give the same performance as theirs in your endeavor for a
pre-determined velocity/energy level. An additional 25 fps or so ain't gonna
make one whit of difference to the target.

The pressure required to accelerate a 180-grain bullet to nearly 1200
fps in a short pistol barrel is more than enough to remove your nose, eyes,
and a good-sized chunk of your hand.

Use a good, firm taper crimp to prevent bullet setback. I understand that,
with the .40 it takes very little to cause pressures to enter the Twilight Zone.

Luck!

Tuner

[The Tourist]

I've been loading 10mm calibre cartridges since my Bren came out in 1984. I've found that the flexibility of those types are DOWN, not up.

With the original Norma 10mm, the customer service person at Dornaus and Dixon, her name was Harlene, told me to go WAY DOWN. I used a Hensley and Gibbs 200 grain linotype cast bullet with only 9 grains of Blue Dot. (It was a Hercules powder back then.)

When the SW .40 came out, most of us looked at the cartridge as just a 'special' version of the previous 'magnum' cartridge. It had its own loading problems.

While I never had the problem with my cast bullets, some people got bulged cases loading a 200 grain jacketed bullet into the shorter case. Some got vertical stringing with the original firearm, the SW 4006. (I had one, a real vanilla gun. It wanted to shoot, I had a friend with more money than brains and it went home with him.)

I'm still loading DOWN. My present SW .40 is with A/A #5, and I make a plinker with A/A #2 that a hardware store was closing out for 2 dollars per pound.

Your choice of the 155 is good; the old 135's go all over the place, and I don't see a great deal of difference in the old 170's, the newer 180's or my cast 200's.

If I'm plinking, it's cast, if it's under my bed for defense, I go Gold Dot or Golden Saber. I have the Golden Sabers this week.

(BTW, the SW 4013 was a neat gun, sometimes I'm sorry I sold it, although I shot it very little.)

[Sean Smith]

I think you chould consider that an over-bored 9x19 handgun (which is what most .40 S&W handguns are) probably shouldn't be firing 600+ ft-lb loads (which is what 155gr @ 1,300+ ft/sec would give you).

9x19 +P+ maxes out at about 450 ft-lbs. Boring it out from .355" to .400" only weakens the gun, given that the external dimensions of 9x19 and .40 S&W guns are generally identical. Then increasing the muzzle energy to 600 ft-lbs on top of that seems rather foolish. Especially considering that the .40 S&W case has a pretty small margin for error. See blown Glock and HK .40's for details.

[mete]

I have always been puzzled by the common desire to ask 'how hot can I load it?' In target shooting max loads are usually not the most accurate and for hunting and self defense bullet placement is the most important. Wear and tear on the gun, short life on brass, more muzzle blast and recoil for a minor increase in velocity. If a 9mm isn't enough get a 357sig, if 40 isn't enough get a 10mm etc.

[cheapsk8]

Sean Smith,

Please note the pressure ratings on the loads listed with longshot. They match most loads with 1150-1200 fps ratings with most other powders.

It is the same situation where the powder matches the calibre. Like lil` gun gets an extra 200 fps in .22 hornet and blows out .357 slugs at the same velocity as other powders, but at reduced pressures.

Please explain to me what muzzle energy has to do with chamber pressure.

I asked for experianced opinions on this powder/round combo, not speculation.

Saying that these longshot loads are more likley to blow a gun than slower loads working AT THE SAME OPERATING PRESSURE, is like saying 2400 loads are going to blow up my .44 mag because they are faster than the same pressure loads using Unique.

Thank-you to the others who answered. Your post were intelligent and points well taken. I am an experianced reloader of many years/calibres, just not in .40 .

Again, anyone other than an anti-40 cal shooter have any EXPERIANCE with this powder/calibre combo?

[Preacherman]

I'm moving this one to the Reloading forum.

[stans]

I am not anti-40, but I am anti-kaboom! Reloading should not be about how hot you can load a round without injuring or killing yourself. There is no need to turn the 40 into a 10mm. There is no need to turn 38 Special into 357 Magnum. Stay within the design limits of the cartridge, your hands will thank you.

["yote"]

I had a .40 . Didn't like it. Way too fussy to load. It was too easy to get
dangerous pressure spikes. The slightest change could get you in trouble.
Now I shoot 9's and 45's. I'm too old to be living on the edge.

[The Tourist]

Yes, that's another aspect, the pressure curve. One of the negative things I learned about the 10mm is that its peak pressure is reached before the bullet clears the brass.

This is why the Bren had a Boots Obermeyer barrel with a long leade.

Now, to be fair, I haven't read any negative articles on the curve for the SW .40, but that doesn't mean it's safe when pushed to the max.

[HSMITH]

cheapsk8, I have been using Longshot in several calibers since it came out, and extensively in 40.

I like it VERY much, and in most cases it delivers EXACTLY what Hodgdon lists or just very slightly under. I have not seen better than listed results.

It has been my experience through case measurements that the pressures listed in the loading data are accurate, and even the barnburner loads are at the same or are lower in pressure than most factory loads.

I buy it now in 4 pound cans. Get some, you'll like it.

[PCRCCW]

Id say if you can keep it within reasonable pressures: GO FOR IT! Id like to shoot some of these loads. Present powder technology is getting more advanced and it was only a matter of time before they get more velocity out of it without going through the ceiling with pressure.

Shoot well.

[cheapsk8]

Thank-you HSMITH!!!:)

Also thank-you to those with understanding and concern.

This is what I am looking for. Info from someone who has tried it.

I posted the same question on 3 forums.

All I got was warnings about "overloading" and "hotrodding".

For God`s sake, this is PUBLISHED DATA!!!!:banghead: :banghead:
These loads are the SAME PRESSURE as most any standard max load. Most people do not seem to understand that higher muzzle velocity DOES NOT equal higher pressure. :banghead: :banghead:

I do use Longshot now, in 28 gauge. If it works, it will be as good a reason as any to get an 8lb keg.

If anyone else has any experiance, please list it.

HSMITH, does Longshot burn clean in the 40?

Best, cheapsk8

[bedlamite]

This might be useful:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=68915

I still load 135gr Noslers with 11.0gr Longshot. It's got an impressive muzzle flash :D

[HSMITH]

cheapsk8, yes it is amazingly clean for the power. It is not as clean as Universal or Power Pistol but it is close, and cleaner than most factory loadings. It meters well also in my measures, the Dillon and Redding are dead on and the little POS Lee I have even works well with it. It goes well fast enough so I have never pushed it with the loads. I also shoot them in a Glock with a factory barrel so it is prudent to keep pressures to factory levels or lower.

Most people do not seem to understand that higher muzzle velocity DOES NOT equal higher pressure.

Amen brother!!!! When different powders are compared there is NO direct correllation. Some of these guys think it is impossible because their favorite won't or barely will do it, and the others that simply refuse logic must have other shortcomings:rolleyes: :scrutiny: .....

Most claim that since the 10mm struggles to do 1500 with 135's at full rated pressure the 40 must be stratospheric in pressure to do it. They miss the point completely that they are two DIFFERENT cartridges with DIFFERENT properties, and some powders are better suited to one cartridge than another.

On another subject, try some of the 12 ga 1 1/4 oz loads with Longshot. Positively awesome!!!!!!!!!! With #5 shot they make amazing long range upland hunting loads. Patterns are also a lot better than they should be for the speeds, I suspect due to the more gradual accelleration of the shotcharge. At any rate they are excellent loads. I have also shot them in temperature extremes and noticed no variations from -10* to upper 80*s. PLENTY of recoil in a fixed breech gun too, but it is to be expected at that sort of energy level.

Performance in the 20 guage has been good, but no better than some of the more typical suspects like WSF or Universal. WSF is my preferred powder in 20 for most applications.

Good luck, hope my rambles help at least a little.

[WESHOOT2]

Longshot must be 'chrono-mapped' in your specific gun(s); suggest using .1g increments during 'mapping'.
I keep my 'nukes' to an OAL of 1.134" +/-.000.
I use CCI500 for its harder cup.
I use new sized IMI brass.

That said, might give 3N37 a (very very) careful try, too.


IMNSLE the 40 &W cartridge, when 'hot-rodding', can get overdone with very little warning LOL.
Safety first.

[cheapsk8]

I posted this response on another board, but I believe it is relevant here.

I will definately report my test results for everyone here. You have to understand my thinking and needs. First off, it would appear that Longshot offers "+P performance", without "+P pressure". Think of the benefits of this concept. The power level can be taken to the next level, without risk to the gun or shooter.
Also, we can now obtain standard max load performance at lower than standard pressure.

I mean look at the data. 180 gr bullet at 1009 fps, with only
25 000 PSI.

One of the better Alliant loads is with Power Pistol. It clocks a 180 gr bullet at 1050. BUT AT 33 700! Almost 9000 PSI more for approximately the same velocity!!! In fact all of Alliants 180 gr loads in this velocity range are around 33 000+ PSI.

Now lets look at the higher Longshot load. 1159 fps with only 32 300 PSI. 1100 PSI less pressure than the Alliant load with 100 FPS gain in velocity.


We see the same gains with 155 gr loads.
Alliants best load is 1285 FPS with a full 34 000 PSI.
Longshot is 1329 FPS with only 32 300 PSI.

There you have it folks.
More velocity, with less pressure.
Or same velocity, with signifcantly less pressure.

Now I realize that all firearms will react differently, however the primary data offered by the manufacturers is significant. Shooters concerned with high pressure can switch to Longshot in order to reduce their pressure while maintaining their velocity. This should be of interest to Glock .40 shooters concerned with their unsupported case heads.

As I am still awaiting delivery of my new pistol, I won`t be able to test for a little while. As soon as I have results, I will post.

As to the "why" of me needing max velocities or better is the simple fact that HP ammunition is not allowed to be imported into Canada. However, components can be. The only HP available to me from local shops is the XTP, which is a tougher bullet to open up. This pistol will be used legally, during trapping season. And although extremely rare if proper trapping procedures and commen sense are followed, bad things can happen. It may be called upon in an emergency to put down carnivores up to the size of an adult wolf. There is nothing more unnerving than being crouched down with a bloody dead animal in your hands, look up and there is a wolf only 15 yards away in the wide open, watching you. It`s happened to me. Fortunatly, he went on his way when I stood up, as most wild animals would. It`s just that rabies are running wild up here right now. And of course, no rifle within reach. Rifles are a burden when carrying traps, catches and equipment.

Thanks for all the concern, advice and support. I will have data available within 2 months for all my fellow .40 shooters.
Best, cheapsk8

[The Tourist]

Cheapsk8,

Your concerns and your inductive reasoning are fine, but I have one question. Is this SW .40 calibre pistol the only firearm you have?

For example, during the big metallic sihuette years, many people who owned strong Ruger .45 Colts loaded them hot trying to create the '45 Magnum.' Ruger was getting them back for repair on a regular basis. They were trying to push the gun where it shouldn't go.

If you have another pistol, is it a better choice?

If I needed heavy performance and wanted a .401 calibre bullet, I would use any of the name brand 10mm Autos. I had both the Delta Elite and the Double Eagle, and if I putzed around, I could hit a tennis ball at +/-60 yards with not too much trouble at the reloading press.

Beyond that, I go to a .44 Rem Mag. I'd love a .454, but I have little use for one now other than as a 'fun gun.'

[cheapsk8]

No, I have a Vaquero .44 Mag.
Also a 1911 .45.

Why is everyone thinking that at these pressure levels that these loads are hot? Does anyone here understand what peak preasure is? Or did you not actually read the post where it states LOWER pressure with these loads? I am not going to be pushing this pistol, but simply acheiving higher performance by using a more efficient powder. Note also I mentioned obtaining std loads with lower pressures by using Longshot.

This is getting frustrating.

[Jeeper]

Why is everyone thinking that at these pressure levels that these loads are hot? Does anyone here understand what peak preasure is? Or did you not actually read the post where it states LOWER pressure with these loads?

I have been watching this post develop and have been thinking the same thing. You didnt ask: Can I go 25gr above max! :banghead:

You asked about a published load that was not above pressure limits. I am curious to see how you like this powder. I only load 40 for USPSA so those velocities are way more than I need but am still curious about the powder. Good luck and report back to us how they felt and if you chrono them.

[cheapsk8]

Jeeper,

It would be my pleasure to post my results. If only for the one or two people who actually took the time to read the post and link before they replied. Thank-you. I was begining to think that my communication skills were defective.
best, cheapsk8

[WESHOOT2]

In MY gun Longshot was unable to reach advertised velocities (by a longshot).

The pressure data quoted is perhaps from not from actual guns: perhaps the pressure data is from test barrels mounted into universal receivers. Often this allows certain latitudes unavailable to a handloader (like the need to make a cartridge feed reliably, or eject consistently).

Before making "Statements of Fact" perhaps a more complete understanding of 'theory vs reality' is in order.

That said, I've communicated with a few folks experimenting with Longshot, and so far the jury is still out........I, too, am still experimenting.
One fellow has gotten great velocities, while others are still unable to approach Hodgdon's results.

Not arguing, just learning.

[The Tourist]

Cheapsk8,

I had no intention of offending you or frustrating you. The concept of 'peak pressure' is a problem for many professional ballisticians.

In the bad old days before the wheel and fire when I was a lad, about the most reliable test they had was called a 'copper crusher.' It was like a Brinnell divot. You measure the depth of the divot and the speed and calculate the force. However, this method does not tell how the pressure rises and falls over time.

From there, I cannot help you or answer your question with a hard number. I do not have the more modern style strain-gauge that can be attached to a receiver and give you an accurate pressure wave reading. In fact, I don't even know where to send you.

I read one or two articles by Rick Jamieson on these gauges.

The best thing I can recommend is just compare several loading manuals, or call their customer service deparment and see if pressure wave info is available.

I know you're frustrated, but I think these guys were making a sincere attempt to get you proper, safe info and a few recommendations. I just do not have the right equipment to get you a hard number. And I apologize for making your reseach all the more difficult.

[cheapsk8]

WESHOOT2,

No statement of fact, in fact I wrote:

"Now I realize that all firearms will react differently, however the primary data offered by the manufacturers is significant."

Also:

"First off, it would appear that Longshot offers "+P performance", without "+P pressure". "

Key word in the second quote is "appear".

Your experiance was the kind of data I was looking for. From someone who tried Longshot in their .40 S&W.

To the others, I got 12 posts warning of high pressure and hotrodding. This assumes I am inexperianced in handloading techniques and theory. Now I don`t expect everyone here to be a mind reader and know my experiance level, but my original post asked if anyone had experiance with a specific powder/calibre combo that looks good based upon the manufactures published data. I didn`t claim this powder/cal combo did produce those figures, I was asking if anyone knew if it did based on experiance. Thats why I asked a specific question. I did not ask if anyone liked the .40 S&W, nor did I ask "what are common problems with loading the .40?" I appreciate everyones concern, but it was frustrating trying to filter the useful info( 3 posts out of the many in this thread) from the rest of the...stuff. Best

[Big Daddy]

FWIW, I just chrono'ed some loads with Longshot in 10mm. I haven't gotten around to it in .40 yet, but I like what I am getting with the 10mm.

Check this against Hodgdon's data as I may be a few tenths over max here and there.

10mm 180g Remington Golden Sabre HP 9.6g Longshot CCI 300 primer 1.260" OAL Starline nickel brass Glock 20 w/ 22 lb Wolff recoil spring & steel guide rod

Hi 1363fps Low 1299fps Avg 1330 ES 63.69 SD 19.74


10mm 165g Speer GDHP 10.4g Longshot CCI 300 primer 1.260 OAL Starline nickel brass Glock 20 w/ 22 lb Wolff recoil spring & steel guide rod

Hi 1400fps Low 1386 Avg 1393 ES 13.47 SD 5.09


Same two above loads in a S&W 1076 w/ Wolff 22lb recoil spring

180g Golden Sabre

Hi 1261 Low 1250 Avg 1256 ES 10.82 SD 5.47

165g Gold Dot

Hi 1395 Low 1316 Avg 1359 ES 79.22 SD 28.44

Here's a practice load:

10mm Star 165g FMJ-FP 10.4g Longshot CCI 300 primer 1.260 OAL Starline nickel brass Glock 20 w/ 22 lb Wolff recoil spring & steel guide rod

Hi 1404 Low 1353 Avg 1381 ES 51.38 SD 14.10

I have not checked for accuracy yet, I just had the chance to run them over the chrono. I'll report back on accuracy but the numbers on ES & SD look good for some of the loads so I am optomistic.

[Grump]

Sorry, CheapSk8, but I'm only adding questions.

I am delaying another purchase of Power Pistol because the flash is so severe--second only to WW296 in my experience. Loved the velocities and accuracy was good. So...when we say Longshot also has impressive muzzle flash, how much and with what bullets?

For example, I've found in .357 Mag that Unique flashes a LOT more with 125-gr bullets than 140+ grain weights (appropriate load levels for each, BTW!!). How is Longshot doing with 155-170- and 180-gr bullets in the .40, as far as flash goes? I can put up with red or orange flash, but that bright white or light yellow from Power Pistol was too much for me.

BTW, I loaded a LOT of 296 in my time because it gave top velocities at published pressures LOWER than other powders. I'm with you on this one, Cheapsk8!

[cheapsk8]

In my tests with Longshot in the .44 Mag, I found it had less flash than my Unique and Red Dot loads. These were at lower pressures though. I do not know how it reacts at 30 000+ PSI...yet. I`ll let you know. Best

[Clark]

I have done allot of testing at the upper end of pressure with LONGSHOT in 40 S&W, 10mm, 7.62x25mm, 9x23mm, 38 Special, and 32 SW Long.

In 40 S&W it is nearly as good as it gets, but not as good as Power Pistol or the champ, 800X.

LONGSHOT is better than 3N37, Blue Dot, AA#9 [Enforcer], and STEEL.

LONGSHOT is WAY better than N105.

I have noticed that the Hodgdon load for LONSHOT is close to a case bulge, while the IMR800X is not. People who say Longshot will give more velocity than 800X at the same pressure are living in a load book world.

[kidcoltoutlaw]

at a temp of 30 i got 1134 with a 180 in a 40 s&w col 1.135.tried 800x it was not close, not to say that it might not be better.i used a col to long at first and the longshot was slower as well.i then cut the col and longshot went up but i did not have time to do the checking with a short col and 800x.im thinking the 800x needs to be less than the 1.165 i checked it with at first.and no they did not feed at the 1.165,thanks,keith

[Grump]

Clark--with your high-end loads with those various powders, how was the brightness, size & color of the muzzle flashes?

Sierra suggested 800-X for me a few years ago, but I never got around to trying it.

[Black Snowman]

Powders I've found to be low flash are Universal and AA #7. I'm sure there are plenty of others out there too but my powder experiance isn't that varied yet :) I primarily use the Universal in .40 and AA #7 in 10mm.

I have some #107 powder from Bartlett Reloaders which is the old flake version of AA #7 that they liquidated when they swiched sources but it has a big flash with bright sparks. That seems to be the only functional differance between the two but you know right away which powder it is.

I've heard good things about 800-X EXCEPT for metering. Apparently it's a "hand weight every charge" kind of powder which is a shame since it gives great velocity at low pressures in the .40 S&W loadings.

[Clark]

Power Pistol, Blue Dot, and H110 make big flashes while 3N37 does not.

800X has big burning flakes that can put spots in a guy's paint job:fire:

[Grump]

Well, 296 shoots tiny flaming sandblasting balls of powder that will speckle your paint job.:eek: I just never see them in flight--maybe 'cause the rest of the flame is so bright? Powder speckle patterns are part of CSI analysis of near- to intermediate-distance gunshot wounds. You'd be amazed what those guys & gals know about various loadings...

[kidcoltoutlaw]

i used a load in my coonan that blew the primer so i went to a rifle primer.then i got the 1775 with a 125 i was after.now i ask myself would it not be better to use the weaker primer so it will blow if you go to far rather than have the gun to blow.just food for thought don't know if im right or or if there is a right or wrong,thanks,keith

[Jwar88]

A Zen like question for the group to meditate on...

If a wolf is shot in the forest... and no one is there to hear it...Is there a sound?

And further....

Can the wolf tell the difference between a 180 HP travelling at 1050 fps vs 1000 fps... or even 950 or 900 fps?

Think on it Grasshopper...

If you believe there is... then you must never shoot game beyond very strict distance parameters... within about 20 yards or so, and never shoot if the outside temperature is lower than 72 degrees! That 180gr bullet travelling at 1050fps at the muzzle will only be travelling at around 1000fps within 25 yards, 900 within 50 yards, and that same load will start out 100-150 fps slower at the muzzle if you shoot at 20 degrees Fahrenheit or below.

If the wolf CAN tell the difference... then you have run into a Wolf that is way smarter than you... and you are already DEAD MEAT !!!


See what I am getting at here...?

Bullet performance is more a function of SHOT PLACEMENT ... bullet construction and bullet weight in that order...

For defence against unknown and various size threats, (ie... man to moose in your case...) moderate loadings of a reasonably substantial bullet weight is the best you can do.

You can optimize a load for one type of target..man or beast... but not for both at the same time.

So... My main concern is always to achieve 100% functional reliability in the weapon I am literally staking my life on.

I would always...DEFINITELY choose a loading a few fps slower if I could save 6000psi in chamber pressure...absolutely!

Best thing you can do with a handgun after you make damn sure it goes BANG every time, is put a big deep hole in one side and out the other. T/C bullets are about as good as HP or semi-wadcutters in real life performance on game, in my experience, and they penetrate deeper and feed better. The only real underachievers are Round Noses... (except for .45 hardball of course!)

IMHO - 800x is the best powder for top velocity loads is 40s&w, if you don't mind weighing charges, a lot of lot to lot variation, and temperature sensitivity. Power Pistol and Longshot eliminate some of the temperature sensitivity, measure much better, and don't really give up that much velocity ...except at the top end... like Clark sez.

If I am feeling particularly indecisive, and I often am, I load my 40 or my 10 mags with alternating 180 gr FMJ T/C and Speer Gold Dots...both real good performers at this velocity level.

Don't load up a whole lot of ammo before you test a few loads in YOUR pistol...and btw...what pistol are you getting?

[kidcoltoutlaw]

and there are no women around is he still wrong.good points at what col do you get 800x to work for me longshot is about 100 fps faster when both are at max loads.with the 40 and a 180 xtp/hp i get 1134 at a temp of 30 and col of 1.135,thanks,keith

[cheapsk8]

I am getting a CZ-85 clone. I`ll finalize my order tomorrow. I understand I don`t need the extra fps to put down a wolf, but I have tested XTPs in other calibres. Example, 230 gr XTP in my .45 auto. With my tests, in my gun, with my lot of bullets, my 850 fps goal WAS NOT sufficient to to give reliable, CONSISTANT bullet expansion. I don`t believe in pushing the .45, that`s not what it was designed for. However, it took 900-950 fps to get the expansion I need. I guess thats why Hornady only loads this bullet at 950 fps in their ammo. So yes, 50 or 100 fps can make a difference. Again, the XTP is the ONLY HP available to me easily.


I will agree that for hunting purposes a TC bullet will kill with good placement. But if you honestly believe that a TC will incapacitate a 100lb animal as quickly as a HP bullet in a confrontational situation with anything other than a CNS hit, my friend, I will here forward take all your advice with a grain of salt, and that will be with the cap unscrewed. I guess otherwise all the cops should switch to solid bullets to increase their OSS rates. My purpose for any increased speed is to gain consistant bullet expansion with a bullet that is known to be tough.

Furthermore, have you ever killed a wolf? Or even a coyote with a sidearm< a.44 mag? Do you know how incredibly tough these animals CAN be to kill? And I mean put down RIGHT NOW, not "let them crawl off and bleed out"?

BTW, please don`t mention moose or people. I certainly have enough disillusions running around here without people thinking either of these two things are part of my intent for this load. People just are not a problem up here, especially where I trap. And Canada does not give permits for this purpose. And moose, I mean,c`mon. A 1000 lb animal vs the .40 S&W for defence? I wouldn`t even trust the .44 mag in that case. We can not use handguns for hunting, and permits for my purpose are only given to people in veeeerrrrrry remote locations. And that is why I want a HP that opens up quickly. Incapacitation time is of the utmost importance in a protection of life situation with a very fast animal that you do not want to touch you. And 99.999% of the time, any wild animal up here will not be a problem. However, as I mentioned, rabies are running wild up here at this time. I don`t even want to get nipped. as the shots are painful.

P.S.
I do not load my .44 to top end speeds with my 300 gr hard cast LBT. Because they don`t need the speed to work.

[cheapsk8]

Sorry for the delay in the testing, but getting all needed items is difficult when you live 300km from the nearest reloading shop.

First load out of the 4.48" Norinco CZ clone was the 155gr XTP with 9.8gr of Longshot. I used .2gr work up loads from 8.6gr. I used Win SP primers and seated the bullets at 1.135". Brass was once fired(actual once fired) Winchester(the WIN CLEAN cases). Max load from the Hodgdon Website was 10.0gr.

Avg velocity 1355fps
ES 29fps

These loads hit close to POA, which is good, because this is the load I wanted to use the most.

Lower powerd plinking load with 180 gr XTPs hit to almost the same POI.
Load was same as above except for the heavier bullet and a load of 7.2 gr of Longshot. Max load in the Hodgdon Data is 8.0gr. I did not go near Max with the 180.

Avg Velocity 1092fps
ES 33fps

Two interesting notes. The 155 gr load is .2 gr lighter than the Hodgdon Max load, but 26fps faster. Possible factors are the .48" longer bbl on my pistol, larger primer pockets on the Win Clean cases, or any other number of individual bbl/pistol/powder lot factors. I feel these loads are a safe Max in MY pistol, as they are in line with the Hodgdon max when you take into account the longer bbl. Be careful at max please!!!
Second is how close these loads grouped together despite the large weight/velocity difference.
Longshot burned VERY clean. The pistol fired 50 shots in all, and almost looked like it had not been fired. Further tests will be posted. I am expecting some cast bullets soon. Best, cheapsk8

[kidcoltoutlaw]

in my p229 using a rainier 180 fp i get 1207 for a 20 shot avg col is 1.135,thanks,keith

[Ultima-Ratio]

I chronoed 180gners @ 1150fps from a G-23 w/LS book loads!

[WESHOOT2]

When going 'extreme duty' (135- or 200g) I use a low-flash powder from Vihtavuori. Or someone else.

I will test loads using different primers but I actually start low and work up.
I prefer NOT using rifle primers in pistol cartridges.

Different lots of 800X have been suspect; proceed with great caution if changing lots.
(My findings here agree with Clark.)

My high-performance concerns are with the Nosler 135g JHP and the Hornady 200g FMJ only.
I load lighter with the other available bullets.



My Statement of Fact remark is directed to all, myself included.
".....but not always....."
".....in my gun....."
"Unless you test you guess"

[zulu00]

cheapsk8, were the pressures quoted by the different sources the same: ie, C.U.P. or PSI? You will find PSI is always higher than C.U.P.. Might explain higher velocities with lower pressures.
zulu00