Odd "bulge" case head area of 30-30?


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Rule3
June 20, 2013, 07:38 PM
I noticed something I have not seen before. I load most all calibers in handgun and a lot of 223 Rem.

The pictures are full sized, cleaned and trimmed 30-30 brass I have been using some new Win brass and have not seen this bulge or bump on any of that brass.

I posted 2 other brands to show what I am referring to. I did not name the brass to avoid any brass bias.:)

So, is this just do to a heavier case and varies due to the brand? Nothing changed other than these few pieces of other brass I got from a friend.

I hope you can see in the pictures, about 1/4 inch above the case head.

3 different brands, the first group of three is the most obvious.

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g251/Hobster_2006/DSC03042Small.jpg (http://s58.photobucket.com/user/Hobster_2006/media/DSC03042Small.jpg.html)

Close up of the first 3 cases.

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g251/Hobster_2006/DSC03044Small.jpg (http://s58.photobucket.com/user/Hobster_2006/media/DSC03044Small.jpg.html)

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rcmodel
June 20, 2013, 08:17 PM
Perfectly normal in a lot of calibers.

The case expanded to fit the chamber.

Until it got to the thicker tapered case web, which didn't expand.

The ones that did it worse were either softer brass, or loaded to higher pressure.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/-2.jpg

rc

243winxb
June 20, 2013, 08:51 PM
The first 3 web area may be smaller in diameter then the others when new & unfired. The thinner body expands Normal for some.

Rule3
June 20, 2013, 09:50 PM
Yes, I understand the stretching when fired, but the resizing die does not return it back to the same size? Or the resize die does not go down that far?

The first brass is Remington, the second is Win and the the third is Fed.

The Win which I have loaded and resized 2 or 3 times, the other I believe (99% sure) it to be once fired that I cleaned and resized.

243winxb
June 20, 2013, 10:08 PM
The resizing die does not return the thick web area back to the same size. The resize die does not go down that far. The part below the shell holder can not be sized.

Jim Watson
June 20, 2013, 10:13 PM
Yes and yes.
The sizing die does not reduce the case all the way down to new.
The sizing die does not size all the way to the rim. There is .125" buried in the shellholder and the die has an easy entry flare or radius that does not touch.

I think it likely that the Winchester brass is a bit smaller than the others.

Walkalong
June 20, 2013, 11:57 PM
The guys have it right. They look just like this .35 Remington cases that has been fired nine times and has no sign of an internal rut but shows the same expansion just above the solid web where it swelled to fit the chamber.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=143307&stc=1&d=1307027929
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=143308&stc=1&d=1307027929

Rule3
June 21, 2013, 01:59 AM
Thanks all.
Rather than some of the brass being softer, could it also be the opposite and some of the brass has thicker or heavier web area and thus a little stronger??

The brass that shows the bump is much older and perhaps made better? Just a WAG.;)

jr_roosa
June 21, 2013, 02:27 AM
My Garands have GI cut chambers that are a little more generous in the rear and they do this to commercial brass. GI brass not so much, and who knows why...maybe thicker walls, harder brass, or larger at the base.

Cut one of yours in half that has the step and one that doesn't and see for yourself what's going on. Maybe even take some calipers to the case heads and see if the ones without the step started out bigger.

The case head separation rings for me show up about 1/4" above that step off, by the way.

Sizing dies are not designed to get you back to "new" size, just enough to get you back in the chamber. "Small Base" dies will get you closer to where you started, but still not all the way.

-J.

gamestalker
June 21, 2013, 12:50 PM
If you haven't already done this, I would use a paper clip with the tip sharpened and bent to feel the inside for incipient separation signs. A good light to look inside also. I don't know how many times that brass has been resized, but it is never a bad idea to inspect a few that look the most defined.
Other wise, it's just where the die stopped during sizing.

GS

Rule3
June 21, 2013, 01:50 PM
If you haven't already done this, I would use a paper clip with the tip sharpened and bent to feel the inside for incipient separation signs. A good light to look inside also. I don't know how many times that brass has been resized, but it is never a bad idea to inspect a few that look the most defined.
Other wise, it's just where the die stopped during sizing.

GS
Good tip. I do not think the brass I just got has ever been reloaded but never hurts to check.
My brass (Win) was new and has only seen 2-3 reloads of Cowboy fart loads.:D

Thanks

HOWARD J
June 21, 2013, 02:39 PM
I have that problem on a Savage Edge in win 243
I now use Prvi-Ppartizan brass & I do not get a bulge or stretch

jeeptim
June 21, 2013, 07:37 PM
Really good tip!!!
I have access to lots of brass and I would pass on reloading brass that looked like that. Would rather use it less trimming.

kayaks
June 21, 2013, 07:45 PM
I reload the 30-30 and agree that most of what is being seen in the pictures is just the limit of the resizing die. For what it is worth, I used have trouble with denting the cases, using a lube pad and getting too much lube on the case. The spray on products work really well and so far I haven't gotten one stuck :)

RainDodger
June 21, 2013, 08:44 PM
You have likely already done this, as it sounds like you're an experienced hand loader... so don't take offense... :)

I'm going to assume that your sizing die is also adjusted all the way down so you're at least full length sizing as far as possible.

(The only reason I mention this is that I have numerous presses mounted for specific purposes and on a rare occasion I have moved a die to another press and had to actively think about having to re-set the die adjustment, as I do it so rarely.) (boy, that is one run-on sentence, isn't it?)

rcmodel
June 21, 2013, 09:43 PM
agree that most of what is being seen in the pictures is just the limit of the resizing die.That is not the limit of the sizing die.

The sizing die will size the case down to about 1/8" of the case head, when the die is properly adjusted to contact the shell holder.
The shell holder thickness keeps the die from sizing any further down then 1/8" of the flat of the case head.

What you are seeing 1/2" up the case, is thicker unexpanded case web taper that didn't expand for whatever reason I outlined in post #2.

So the sizing die didn't need to touch it.
Because it was smaller then SAAMI spec to start with.

That's my story, and I'm sticking too it.

rc

243winxb
June 22, 2013, 09:35 AM
+1 what RC said. Walkalong, your brass looks like its loaded a little on the hot side?

Walkalong
June 23, 2013, 12:08 PM
I would say mostly fat chamber, but it has had some near max/max loads fired in it. It is a test case with nine firings on it after I found it at the range. No sign on an internal rut. I have pushed a 180 Gr jacketed bullet between 2250 to 2275 FPS from a 20" barrel using the max TAC data for a 200 Gr jacketed bullet. I also went a little over "max" with H335, but backed off. Not usually, but with some loads I will push them pretty good and then settle on something a bit lower.

243winxb
June 23, 2013, 12:36 PM
A 180gr at 2275 out of a 20" is moving them along. After 9 firing, that would expand the brass well.

hang fire
June 23, 2013, 01:42 PM
I noticed something I have not seen before. I load most all calibers in handgun and a lot of 223 Rem.

The pictures are full sized, cleaned and trimmed 30-30 brass I have been using some new Win brass and have not seen this bulge or bump on any of that brass.

I posted 2 other brands to show what I am referring to. I did not name the brass to avoid any brass bias.:)

So, is this just do to a heavier case and varies due to the brand? Nothing changed other than these few pieces of other brass I got from a friend.

I hope you can see in the pictures, about 1/4 inch above the case head.

3 different brands, the first group of three is the most obvious.

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g251/Hobster_2006/DSC03042Small.jpg (http://s58.photobucket.com/user/Hobster_2006/media/DSC03042Small.jpg.html)

Close up of the first 3 cases.

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g251/Hobster_2006/DSC03044Small.jpg (http://s58.photobucket.com/user/Hobster_2006/media/DSC03044Small.jpg.html)
What gun were they fired in? If a lever gun, many had very generous chambers.

Just me, but if the cartridges will chamber without FLS, I would NS only to prevent over working the brass.

Walkalong
June 23, 2013, 03:27 PM
A 180gr at 2275 out of a 20" is moving them along.That was the hottest, they were not all up there. ;) :)

jr_roosa
June 23, 2013, 04:52 PM
Just me, but if the cartridges will chamber without FLS, I would NS only to prevent over working the brass.

I have tried minimally resizing 30-30 and not only is my accuracy no better, but I have trouble closing the action enough to disengage the safety system on the model 94 on some rounds. My brass doesn't get case head separations anyway and usually fails with neck or shoulder splits, so I now push the shoulder back .005" or even a little more for .30-30. I'll trade brass life for reliability since I don't really shoot high volumes of .30-30 anyway.

J.

DeadFlies
June 23, 2013, 08:54 PM
All of my 30-30 brass, about 200 pieces, looks like that. Its all been reloaded numerous times. Mixed headstamps, no worries. I load 'em rather on the light side though and th few that ive had the toss have all been due to neck /shoulder splits.

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