Odd rifle caliber.....


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Sentryau2
June 21, 2013, 05:56 AM
So I was looking around online at all the different firearms and what not, just doing random searching and researching what I thought was interesting. While doing this I found this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VSS_Vintorez

And it shoots this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9x39mm

Now my question is, an ar-15 caliber that is similar in performance? What would happen if one were to load up black tip .30-06 ap bullets into a .300 AAC blackout case? I would be very interested and impressed if there was a modern caliber that could match the 9x39. A bonus would be the availability of AP ammo in said caliber. Before anyone asks why, because I think it would be very very fun (tho I doubt one would never fall into my hands) and useful if you needed to take out a bad guy who was behind cover, or even for stopping a vehicle. Can anyone give me some videos of the VSS vintorez and the AS val rifles?

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PabloJ
June 21, 2013, 06:05 AM
So I was looking around online at all the different firearms and what not, just doing random searching and researching what I thought was interesting. While doing this I found this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VSS_Vintorez

And it shoots this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9x39mm

Now my question is, an ar-15 caliber that is similar in performance? What would happen if one were to load up black tip .30-06 ap bullets into a .300 AAC blackout case? I would be very interested and impressed if there was a modern caliber that could match the 9x39. A bonus would be the availability of AP ammo in said caliber. Before anyone asks why, because I think it would be very very fun (tho I doubt one would never fall into my hands) and useful if you needed to take out a bad guy who was behind cover, or even for stopping a vehicle. Can anyone give me some videos of the VSS vintorez and the AS val rifles?
It was Soviet version of our .300 Whisper and designed to be used in goofly takedown weapon with skeleton stock and long suppressor.

Edarnold
June 21, 2013, 06:38 AM
As far as can be determined from the available information, the idea was to create a spec-ops suppressed gun that could still get enough energy to an AP core to be useful. Since the mass of the core is usually no more than half the mass of the whole projectile, and the velocity can't go over 1,000 fps, bigger caliber is the only way to go. For an AR compatible equivalent something like the .458 SOCOM would be a good starting point, but you would still need an appropriate bullet. Something like a 300 gr soft-point with a hole drilled to accept an 9- mm diameter hardened steel penetrator , loaded to the appropriate velocity.
I doubt if loading a 7.62 AP bullet in the Blackout would do any good, since you don't have enough energy to push the penetrator through the jacket. The whole point of the PS6 load is to have the penetrator exposed at the nose, so it sheds the jacket easily when striking a hardened target.

Sentryau2
June 21, 2013, 08:04 PM
Ok thanks guys but how about .300blk super sonic rounds with something like a steel penetrator? See I was thinking about both suppressed and unsuppressed weapons. In all honesty I just love the concept of the VSS vintorez and its sister firearms, before anyone asks why someone would need a weapon capable of penetrating armor, well not many citizens need them but some of us want them. Tho I'm sure thoes living along the border would not mind having weapons that could punch through a steel vest if need be.

The 9x39mm rounds velocity is 960fps and delivers 885.7 J of energy w 17.3Grams.(can someone help me out with J, I'm not really familiar with that unit of force)
The 50 beowulf has a velocity of 1,870 ft/s with 3,160 J of energy w a 19gram bullet weight.
So you would have to slow the beowulf down correct, how much would this effect the energy and ability to penetrate steel (if you added a tungsten core)
and 300AAC 1,010 ft/s, 675 J and weighs 14grams. Would this be your best bet if you added a steel core?

Since the atf has banned amunition with a steel, bronze, or alloy core that would penetrate armor in a pistol caliber. (however for some reason I do know its legal to load .30-06 blacktip into a .308 case but selling .308 AP is illegal)How well would loading .30-06 black tip in a .300 blk out case and pushing it to super sonic velocities.

WardenWolf
June 22, 2013, 12:05 AM
Ah yes, the VSS Vintorez. One of the very few silenced weapons that genuinely just go "click" when fired. It's that quiet. It's very good at what it's designed for, which is taking out targets in a developed area and making it completely impossible to detect the shooter by sound or muzzle flash.

The ATF might have some say about civilian use of a round designed explicitly to be silenced, possibly even designating the ammunition itself NFA. Even if domestic ammo was developed to those characteristics, chances are it would quickly be made illegal for civilians to own.

AethelstanAegen
June 22, 2013, 12:50 AM
The ATF might have some say about civilian use of a round designed explicitly to be silenced, possibly even designating the ammunition itself NFA. Even if domestic ammo was developed to those characteristics, chances are it would quickly be made illegal for civilians to own.

I don't think so. 9x39 is not one of the internally silenced Soviet cartridges, it just lends itself well to being suppressed. The ATF doesn't list .45 auto as an NFA item, which also lends itself well to suppression.

It was Soviet version of our .300 Whisper and designed to be used in goofly takedown weapon with skeleton stock and long suppressor.

It actually predates .300 Whisper and the VSS is a pretty effective weapon system. http://youtu.be/J7A2V5Y9A7I?t=2m8s

303tom
June 23, 2013, 02:40 AM
The Soviet`s have eight different firearms that use the 9x39 round, its not that odd to them....................

Sentryau2
June 23, 2013, 03:44 AM
care to provide names of said firearms and info on them?

AethelstanAegen
June 23, 2013, 05:04 PM
Some of the guns chambered in 9x39: 9A-91, VSK-94, VSS Vintorez, AS Val
OTs-12, Groza, and the Vikhr. It's only really rare here, but the 9x39 is in widespread military/policce use in Russia. If you're interested in rare, silenced Soviet/Russian ammo 9x39 seems commonplace next to SP-3 and PZAM ammo.

http://world.guns.ru/ammunition/russian-special-cartridges-e.html

WardenWolf
June 23, 2013, 05:13 PM
If you like the Vintorez and Val rifles you should play through the Stalker trilogy for the PC. They are arguably the best rifles in the series.

And that's where I gained my love of them. Always carried a VSS Vintorez and an AS Val. Gave me ammo commonality and a sniper rifle that could be used full-auto in a pinch. Since you couldn't silence the SVD, it became the weapon of choice for sowing death and confusion at long range.

Metro 2033 and Metro Last Light also feature the VSK-94, although in those games it's been adapted to 5.45x39 and lacks the arcing trajectory that you get with 9x39. Like in the STALKER series, it's a gun you pretty much never give up once you get it. It's just too useful.

Back to reality, perhaps the most incredible things about these rifles is their weight, or lack thereof. The VSS Vintorez weighs only 5.73 pounds, and the AS Val 5.51 pounds. They're a highly compact and lightweight weapons system. It's pretty hard to envision a semi-auto rifle being that light, let alone one that's silenced and designed for precision accuracy. It makes you question some things you thought you knew about weapons design.

FIVETWOSEVEN
June 23, 2013, 11:01 PM
The ATF might have some say about civilian use of a round designed explicitly to be silenced, possibly even designating the ammunition itself NFA. Even if domestic ammo was developed to those characteristics, chances are it would quickly be made illegal for civilians to own.

Internally suppressed ammo is regulated, ammo designed to be suppressed effectively with a silencer is not. It's still loud without a silencer.

MistWolf
June 24, 2013, 03:02 AM
I was really hopeing someone could point me in the direction of a weapons platform that was similar to that of the as family of weapons.

It's a specialty weapon.

In all seriousness, if you want a caliber that's good at defeating cover, try the 7.62x51 or 30-06. For good penetration of armor, brick walls etc., velocity is your friend.

The 9x39 penetrator rounds, I can almost guarantee are supersonic. Subsonic velocities will greatly reduce their penetration

WardenWolf
June 24, 2013, 10:18 AM
No, they're subsonic still. They gain their penetration through high mass.

max popenker
June 24, 2013, 10:46 AM
care to provide names of said firearms and info on them?
here you are:

Silenced assault rifles:
AS Val (http://world.guns.ru/assault/rus/as-val-e.html)
9A-91 (http://world.guns.ru/assault/rus/9a-91-e.html)
SR-3 Vikhr (http://world.guns.ru/assault/rus/cp-3-cp-3m-vortex-e.html)
AK-9 (http://world.guns.ru/assault/rus/ak-9-e.html)
OTs-12 Tiss (http://world.guns.ru/assault/rus/oc-12-thiess-e.html)
OTs-14 Groza (http://world.guns.ru/assault/rus/ots-14-groza-e.html)

Silenced sniper (actually "marksman") rifles:
VSS Vintorez (http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sniper-rifles/rus/vss-e.html)
VSK-94 (http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sniper-rifles/rus/vsk-94-e.html)

All 9x39 rounds are strictly sub-sonic, AP or not.

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