NY Bill Sets Up Ammo DB - Requires Manufacturers To Register & Report


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dc dalton
June 21, 2013, 10:13 AM
Proposed New York bill A08108 sets up ammunition tracking database, requires manufacturers to register and report to the state.

From the bill:

THE MANUFACTURER REGISTRY. (I) EVERY MANUFACTURER SHALL REGISTER WITH THE NEW YORK STATE POLICE IN A MANNER PRESCRIBED BY THE NEW YORK STATE POLICE, AND SHALL MAINTAIN RECORDS ON THE BUSINESS PREMISES FOR A PERIOD OF SEVEN YEARS CONCERNING ALL SALES, LOANS, AND TRANSFERS OF AMMUNITION TO, FROM, OR WITHIN THE STATE.

EVERY MANUFACTURER SHALL CODE ANY AMMUNITION FOR HANDGUNS AND ASSAULT WEAPONS SOLD OR MANUFACTURED AFTER JANUARY FIRST, TWO THOUSAND FOURTEEN.

http://amgoa.org/Proposed-New-York-Gun-Law-A08108/State-Law/9649

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Art Eatman
June 21, 2013, 10:17 AM
"I know that this won't reduce violent crimes with firearms, but WE MUST DO SOMETHING!"

"Ignorance is no excuse for a law." -- Tamara Keel.

Speedo66
June 21, 2013, 10:20 AM
Does this include home hand loaders?

wildbilll
June 21, 2013, 10:23 AM
OK, I'll bite. Isn't just about all ammo sold able to be used in something that is either a handgun or some long gun that can be classified as an "assault weapon"?
And what is "coded" mean? Is that microstamping?

Speedo66
June 21, 2013, 10:29 AM
Yup, since there are those manufacturers that make the rifle caliber single shot pistol barrels, just about any rifle cartridge could be classified as a pistol cartridge.

MErl
June 21, 2013, 10:37 AM
very bad bill bill text (http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?default_fld=&bn=A08108&term=2013&Summary=Y&Actions=Y&Text=Y&Votes=Y#A08108)
"coded"
1 (II) EVERY MANUFACTURER SHALL CODE ANY AMMUNITION FOR HANDGUNS AND
2 ASSAULT WEAPONS SOLD OR MANUFACTURED AFTER JANUARY FIRST, TWO THOUSAND
3 FOURTEEN.
4 B. THE VENDOR REGISTRY. EVERY VENDOR OF AMMUNITION SHALL REGISTER WITH
5 THE NEW YORK STATE POLICE IN A MANNER PRESCRIBED BY THE NEW YORK STATE
6 POLICE, AND SHALL RECORD THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION IN A FORMAT
7 PRESCRIBED BY THE NEW YORK STATE POLICE:
8 (I) THE DATE OF THE TRANSACTION;
9 (II) THE NAME OF THE TRANSFEREE;
10 (III) THE PURCHASER'S DRIVER'S LICENSE NUMBER OR OTHER GOVERNMENT
11 ISSUED IDENTIFICATION CARD NUMBER;
12 (IV) THE DATE OF BIRTH OF THE PURCHASER;
13 (V) THE UNIQUE IDENTIFIER OF ALL HANDGUN AMMUNITION OR BULLETS TRANS-
14 FERRED;

50 8. FOR PURPOSES OF THIS SECTION, "CODED AMMUNITION" MEANS A BULLET
51 CARRYING A UNIQUE IDENTIFIER THAT HAS BEEN APPLIED BY ETCHING ONTO THE
52 BASE OF THE BULLET PROJECTILE.


oo, a bullet tax:
28 4. THE COST OF MAINTAINING THE DATABASE SHALL BE FUNDED BY THE AMMUNI-
29 TION CODING SYSTEM DATABASE FUND ESTABLISHED PURSUANT TO SECTION NINE-
30 TY-ONE-G OF THE STATE FINANCE LAW. VENDORS SHALL CHARGE AN ADDITIONAL
31 $.005 PER BULLET OR ROUND OF AMMUNITION TO THE PURCHASER. SUCH MONEYS
32 SHALL BE DEPOSITED INTO THE FUND.

applies to ALL Existing Ammunition:
1 A PERSON IS GUILTY OF UNLAWFUL SALE OR POSSESSION OF UNCODED AMMUNI-
2 TION WHEN HE OR SHE:
3 1. SELLS ANY AMMUNITION THAT HAS NOT BEEN CODED PURSUANT TO SECTION
4 THREE HUNDRED NINETY-SIX-GG OF THE GENERAL BUSINESS LAW; OR
5 2. POSSESSES ANY AMMUNITION THAT IS UNCODED, OR THE CODE OF WHICH HAS
6 BEEN RENDERED UNREADABLE, EXCEPT IF SUCH POSSESSION IS WITHIN THREE
7 YEARS FROM THE EFFECTIVE DATE OF THIS SECTION AND THE PERSON HAS A VALID
8 HUNTING LICENSE; OR
9 3. POSSESSES ONE HUNDRED ROUNDS OR MORE OF AMMUNITION THAT IS UNCODED,
10 OR THE CODE OF WHICH HAS BEEN RENDERED UNREADABLE, DOES NOT HAVE A VALID
11 HUNTING LICENSE, AND SUCH POSSESSION TAKES PLACE AT LEAST ONE YEAR AFTER
12 THE EFFECTIVE DATE OF THIS SECTION.
13 UNLAWFUL SALE OR POSSESSION OF UNCODED AMMUNITION IS A CLASS A MISDE-
14 MEANOR.


Handloaders are probably not considered Manufacturers since there is mention of business premises but the possession rule would apply.
15 A. THE MANUFACTURER REGISTRY. (I) EVERY MANUFACTURER SHALL REGISTER
16 WITH THE NEW YORK STATE POLICE IN A MANNER PRESCRIBED BY THE NEW YORK
17 STATE POLICE, AND SHALL MAINTAIN RECORDS ON THE BUSINESS PREMISES FOR A
18 PERIOD OF SEVEN YEARS CONCERNING ALL SALES, LOANS, AND TRANSFERS OF
19 AMMUNITION TO, FROM, OR WITHIN THE STATE.

backbencher
June 21, 2013, 10:55 AM
So New Yorkers are to be disarmed by making the ammo so expensive they can't afford to shoot w/in the state. Of course, the NY taxpayers are going to have to pay high $ to keep their police in boolits, as well. There will be a single ammo manufacturer supplying the People's Republic of New York.

Torian
June 21, 2013, 11:02 AM
Is there support for this in the legislature? I wonder how many of the liberals who are in favor of such legislation cited the movie "Judge Dredd" as supporting evidence.

In the movie, firearms were DNA coded to whomever was holding the weapon, and each bullet had a identifier unique to the shooter.

AirForceShooter
June 21, 2013, 11:03 AM
Nyers will just drive over the state line.
Going on vacation will now include a budget to buy ammo and drive it back.

Remington was trying to stay.
Now???

AFS

dc dalton
June 21, 2013, 11:13 AM
So New Yorkers are to be disarmed by making the ammo so expensive they can't afford to shoot w/in the state. Of course, the NY taxpayers are going to have to pay high $ to keep their police in boolits, as well. There will be a single ammo manufacturer supplying the People's Republic of New York.
You have to remember, with this comes the micro stamping requirement for all guns. So it's not just ammo it's guns.

They could in fact piss off manufacturers to the point no one will ship ammo OR guns to NY, effectively banning new gun sales without actually banning them.

jlucke69
June 21, 2013, 11:19 AM
Soon it will be more profitable for thieves to steal ammunition than guns.

Speedo66
June 21, 2013, 03:52 PM
From what I'm reading, in the future if you have 100 rounds of ammo over a year old, unstamped, and don't possess a hunting license, they've just made you a criminal. Hunters have 3 years before they're a criminal.

This is such BS!! :fire:

To even think up such a bill is a travesty.

PavePusher
June 21, 2013, 03:53 PM
Interesting.

1. Are there any ammo-manufacturers based in NY? If so, does this apply to ammo they sell/ship out-of state?

2. Ammo vendors in Vermont, southern NH, Penn. and north-east Ohio just won the lottory, unless this gets rejected. You've seen the fireworks tent-stores near states that 'ban' fireworks, yes....?

Midwest
June 21, 2013, 04:15 PM
I believe with the 1968 GCA there was a requirement to have a FFL to sell ammo. I think it was done away with FOPA 86 ? I think the FFL was a FFL 4 or FFL 5 license to sell ammo only. I believe anyone buying handgun ammo had to have their names written down in a register, this was federal law at at one time. From what I understand it was done away with as being too onerous and didn't solve one crime.

I can't find much information on how much the FFL 4 (or 5) license cost or what were the exact regulations at the time. Most sites seem to have the revised regulations of the the 1968 GCA and not the original text.

Maybe someone can add in the exact details or could point me to where I can find this information. My whole point is that if it was done away with because it didn't solve crime and created too much paperwork...maybe the politicians in NY need to know that it turned out to be a useless regulation ....(for what it is worth).

MErl
June 21, 2013, 04:22 PM
From what I'm reading, in the future if you have 100 rounds of ammo over a year old, unstamped, and don't possess a hunting license, they've just made you a criminal. Hunters have 3 years before they're a criminal.
worse than that actually.

after 2014 you may not have >100rnds of unmarked ammunition.
after 2017 you may not have any unmarked ammunition.
(unless you have a hunting license which seems an odd thing to totally nullify possession of any amount)

This one we sure don't want going anywhere. Talk about a horrible model for the rest of the country.

heyjoe
June 21, 2013, 10:41 PM
this bill was first introduced 12/31/69

Twiki357
June 22, 2013, 01:27 AM
Quote:
50 8. FOR PURPOSES OF THIS SECTION, "CODED AMMUNITION" MEANS A BULLET
51 CARRYING A UNIQUE IDENTIFIER THAT HAS BEEN APPLIED BY ETCHING ONTO THE
52 BASE OF THE BULLET PROJECTILE.

Now exactly how are they going to determine that the ammunition is "Coded" if it is on the base of the projectile?
If the "Code" is also on the box, what's to prevent a person from refilling an old box with uncoded ammo if the code is on the bullet base inside the case?

Old Shooter
June 22, 2013, 06:29 AM
I can see the NY State Police going around with an inertia bullet puller to pull the bullets from your pistol to see if the base of the projectile is coded.....

They do have random traffic check points, mayby this would be included.

How is an individual to know if his ammo is, in fact, coded?

Who was the genius in New York that introduced this bill?

dragon813gt
June 22, 2013, 08:08 AM
I realize this will hurt the residents of NY. But this is where the manufacturers have to stop selling to NY. They have 49 other states and the rest of the world to sell to. So why bother with all the hassles in one market. NY has realized they can effectively ban firearms by making it cost prohibitive. I know it's a battle which is ongoing. And it seems the residents are losing ground every day. This is something that can only be stopped by the residents of NY.


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Torian
June 22, 2013, 10:05 AM
I realize this will hurt the residents of NY. But this is where the manufacturers have to stop selling to NY. They have 49 other states and the rest of the world to sell to. So why bother with all the hassles in one market. NY has realized they can effectively ban firearms by making it cost prohibitive. I know it's a battle which is ongoing. And it seems the residents are losing ground every day. This is something that can only be stopped by the residents of NY.


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As a last resort...possibly. However, the residents of NY need help. Giving up on an entire state in terms of firearms and ammo is losing a big piece of this war.

If we give up this state, they will just move along to another one. There can be no compromising with this type of legislation that is just designed to harass lawful gun owners.

RetiredUSNChief
June 22, 2013, 10:22 AM
I believe with the 1968 GCA there was a requirement to have a FFL to sell ammo. I think it was done away with FOPA 86 ? I think the FFL was a FFL 4 or FFL 5 license to sell ammo only. I believe anyone buying handgun ammo had to have their names written down in a register, this was federal law at at one time. From what I understand it was done away with as being too onerous and didn't solve one crime.

I can't find much information on how much the FFL 4 (or 5) license cost or what were the exact regulations at the time. Most sites seem to have the revised regulations of the the 1968 GCA and not the original text.

Maybe someone can add in the exact details or could point me to where I can find this information. My whole point is that if it was done away with because it didn't solve crime and created too much paperwork...maybe the politicians in NY need to know that it turned out to be a useless regulation ....(for what it is worth).

Actually, the politicians in NY need to know that their CONSTITUENTS believe this to be a useless regulation...and said constituents need to voice this loudly and proudly when they VOTE.

If that doesn't happen, then there will be no countering of this bill until someone successfully challenges it in the courts sometime years down the road...IF it's ever challenged at all.

Deanimator
June 22, 2013, 10:42 AM
Manufacturers should just stop shipping to New York.

Let the NYPD carry clubs. Everybody will be safer in the end.

Ryanxia
June 22, 2013, 11:02 AM
If something like this passes which is as clear a violation of your Second Amendment Rights as can be, and just about all out bans shooting, it's pretty obvious what choice NY folks have to make. When the system fails to protect your Rights, you'll either take it or you won't, that simple. It's why we have the 2A to begin with.

In any case, good luck.

dragon813gt
June 22, 2013, 03:29 PM
As a last resort...possibly. However, the residents of NY need help. Giving up on an entire state in terms of firearms and ammo is losing a big piece of this war.

If we give up this state, they will just move along to another one. There can be no compromising with this type of legislation that is just designed to harass lawful gun owners.

The only people that can help are the residents. Yes people outside of the state can contribute money to any organization/person on the pro side. But at the end of the day it's the residents who pull the levers at the voting booth. I can not vote to help them out. It doesn't help that NYC and the surrounding area runs the entire state. Because upstate NY is very conservative. I wish there was more that I could do as I'm not that far away from NY. I have a feeling that if manufacturers stopped shipping there they still wouldn't get it. But law enforcement would start crying at some point.




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RetiredUSNChief
June 22, 2013, 05:32 PM
If something like this passes which is as clear a violation of your Second Amendment Rights as can be, and just about all out bans shooting, it's pretty obvious what choice NY folks have to make. When the system fails to protect your Rights, you'll either take it or you won't, that simple. It's why we have the 2A to begin with.

In any case, good luck.

It's pretty obvious to people like US what choice NY folks SHOULD make. However, like it or not, this is a choice THEY have to make. And to make it, THEY have to get off their keisters and do something politically in order to acheive that goal, just like dragon813gt said. Those of us who are not NY residents have little political say in the matter, and rightfully so.

(NOTE: We do have some political say...but not as much as NY residents do.)

History is replete with plenty of examples of peoples who, through one means or another, acquiesced to being disarmed. If New Yorkers collectively decide this is what they want, then this is what they will get. And this collective decision doesn't just include "those in power". It includes people who don't care enough about the subject to get involved, people who are too lazy to organize effective political rebuttals, people in cities vs people in rural settings, and more.

For what it's worth, I agree that this is a violation of our Second Amendment RKBA. HOWEVER, enough residents must agree with this point of view to shoot it down before it becomes law. And should it become law, enough people must care enough to successfully challenge the law in the federal courts through an appropriate case.

medalguy
June 22, 2013, 11:07 PM
OK, so in three years all uncoded ammo will be contraband. What are you supposed to do with unmarked ammo? Pull the bullets and mark them? Go out and shoot it all up?

What about handloaders? What about those who cast their own bullets? Does the law apply only to licensed "manufacturers" or does it apply to Joe Schmoe who is busy casting his own bullets and is not a manufacturer? And after seven years any licensed manufacturer can destroy old records. What if a BG use ammo manufactured eight years ago?

Ever seen a production line for ammunition? How is a manufacturer supposed to keep numbers etched onto the base of loaded ammo together and load consecutive numbered, loaded bullets in ammunition into the same box?

What idiots thought up this law anyway? Oh right, New Yawk legislators. :cuss:

Bubbles
June 24, 2013, 09:14 AM
Manufacturers should just stop shipping to New York.
Manufacturers of firearms, ammunition, magazines, etc. should stop recognizing law-enforcement exemptions to gun control laws, and not just in New York.

Shadow 7D
June 26, 2013, 05:34 AM
Don't sell to the cops, don't sell to the state
what is good for the goose, is good for the gander
Wonder how the state will feel when the NG go for training and the rounds cost 3 bucks a shot.

BigN
June 26, 2013, 06:04 AM
The NY politicians couldn't care less what the residents say. That's how we got into this mess in the first place. It's an extremely liberal state and the few actual conservative politicians we have get stepped on by the powers that be. Cuomo and Bloomberg are calling the shots here and until they're out of office, this will continue and get much worse. Think they pass these laws in the middle of the night because they care what residents want?

Speedo66
June 26, 2013, 08:00 AM
I don't think NYS as a whole is particularly liberal, just the NYC metropolitan area. However, the population is roughly equal downstate to upstate, so especially with Sheldon Silver, an ultra liberal in charge of the assembly, and Cuomo as governor, they've got a lock on what it proposed, and what passes.

So basically in NY, you have the tail shaking the dog. Three men in a room deciding all that happens in that state. All other "representatives" have been excluded. When legislation has to be passed in the middle of the night to prevent any discussion or disclosure, one could question whether a democracy is still in existence.

This ammo bill is unworkable, just as the 7 round limit in non existing mags was. The problem is, they don't care. If it slows or cuts off the supply, they've accomplished their mission. Next, they'll only allow phaser guns set to stun.

RetiredUSNChief
June 27, 2013, 08:53 AM
The NY politicians couldn't care less what the residents say. That's how we got into this mess in the first place. It's an extremely liberal state and the few actual conservative politicians we have get stepped on by the powers that be. Cuomo and Bloomberg are calling the shots here and until they're out of office, this will continue and get much worse. Think they pass these laws in the middle of the night because they care what residents want?

Might I suggest that this isn't central around any given individual, however this may seem to the layman. There is a power structure in place which supports them...removing the individuals by voting them out doesn't change the underlying power structure. That will take a long-term effort above and beyond that involved in changing the guard on a single office.

rodregier
June 27, 2013, 07:34 PM
http://www.thepoliceloophole.com/


What is this list?

This is a list of companies that have taken the step to publicly announce that they will not sell items to states, counties, cities, and municipalities that restrict their citizens rights to own them; therefore closing the "police loophole" themselves. It is important to note that we are against gun control; we are not against any particular government agency or individuals.

FIVETWOSEVEN
June 27, 2013, 08:09 PM
I would love to buy a NY gun with the stamp on it for a youtube video. Fire a few shots, show the stamp, pull out a file for 2 minutes, take a few more shots and shot that there is no longer any markings.

Won't that be fun?

Shadow 7D
June 27, 2013, 08:34 PM
Yeah, till Como tried to send brownshirts to drag you to NY for illegal destruction....

Doc7
June 27, 2013, 08:46 PM
Also with a round tax, the higher prices will spread throughout the nation eventually anyway. Not like the stores selling ammo won't realize New Yorkers are coming over because its 5 bucks cheaper for a brick of 22, and end up increasing pricing accordingly. Might take a while but it could spread far....

Speedo66
June 28, 2013, 09:55 AM
If it's illegal to possess unstamped ammo after 3 years, they have just sounded the death knell for hand loaders.

dragon813gt
June 30, 2013, 06:59 PM
If it's illegal to possess unstamped ammo after 3 years, they have just sounded the death knell for hand loaders.

Three years is not near enough time to get rid if all non stamped ammo. Who is going to buy the non stamped ammo? Is the state going to either pay for it outright or trade stamped for non stamped. There are so many potential issues w/ this. It's not like ammo is perishable. W/ a shelf life of half a century or more this will become a major problem for the state and the citizens.


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rodregier
June 30, 2013, 07:15 PM
Could make shotguns or obscure cartridges real popular...

oneounceload
June 30, 2013, 07:24 PM
Manufacturers should just stop shipping to New York.

Let the NYPD carry clubs. Everybody will be safer in the end.

Exactly, if all makers would simply stop selling anything to NY, let Bloomie on his road trip be responsible for buying ammo.

Isn't it time for the second US revolution to start? Really, even the FF didn't put up with this much crap from King George before the boiling point was reached; nor did the South before seceding....

I was born and raised in NYC, you couldn't pay me to visit that Nazi totalitarian enclave....

JSH1
July 1, 2013, 09:37 PM
Microstamping an unique identifier on every bullet isn't even possible. Barcoding technology has come a long way but when you have millions of bullets produced every year there is no way manufacturers will be able to fit a barcode that could contain enough digits on a bullet.

RetiredUSNChief
July 2, 2013, 09:23 AM
Microstamping an unique identifier on every bullet isn't even possible. Barcoding technology has come a long way but when you have millions of bullets produced every year there is no way manufacturers will be able to fit a barcode that could contain enough digits on a bullet.

True...to a point.

Until you realize that you can use more than just numbers to represent digits. Which means that you can use another (higher) base numbering system other than base 10.

For example, using the digits 0 through 9, you can get only 1,000,000 different combinations for a 6 digit number. (Ten to the 6th power.)

If you add the 26 letters of the alphabet to that, you go from base 10 to base 36. This increases the number of different possible combinations for a 6 digit number to 2,176,782,336. (36 to the 6th power.)

Adding still more non-alphanumeric symbols will increase that even more.

The caliber of the bullet can also be used to uniquely ID it, in combination with the microstamped info.

Change tactics to include a character to identify the year and you'll easily be able to assign a unique microstamp to ammunition across several decades.

There are lots of ways to do this, even for billions of rounds of ammunition being manufactured, including who makes it.

There are practical limitations, given the technique used to perform the microstamping, the material being microstamped, and so forth. But it can be done.

Just sayin'...

:uhoh:

Willie Sutton
July 2, 2013, 10:04 AM
(NOTE: We do have some political say...but not as much as NY residents do.)


We have exactly the same political say that Bloomberg has in Maine and in the other places where he attempts to influence the outcome: The power to spend money and time to educate the voters, even if we reside elsewhere.

TV and print ads with smiling faces of families enjoying hunting, fishing, amusement parks, at the opera, looking at the big city lights, and time on the beach, etc., with the message: "We are enjoying our family vacation and spending a lot of money... someplace else. The money we are spending is being spent where our right to defend ourselves and our families is respected. Come join us, someplace else. And if you run a tourism business, call your state senator and tell him that you would like us to return".


Taking your money elsewhere silently is of no real consequence. Taking it elsewhere and TELLING PEOPLE why you are not spending it at THEIR STORE is sending a message.

Willie


.

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