.357 Magnum w/Alliant 2400


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RealGun
June 21, 2013, 01:37 PM
I tried my load of 14.5 gr 2400 and 125 gr XTP .357 Magnum at the range today and got what I assume was powder on the bench. Seemed to shoot nicely without a lot of magnum drama. The 125 gr XTP loads from the Hornady book allow this one powder to use regular primers. I am wondering if that scattered powder would be reduced by use of a magnum primer. I am tempted to just load up another 10 rounds and try it. I might move up to the next level of powder charge in the process or maybe 10 of each.

Any comment or advice?

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USSR
June 21, 2013, 02:02 PM
AA2400? "AA" indicates an Accurate Arms powder, and I don't believe they make a powder called AA2400. If you mean Alliant's 2400 powder, then you don't want to use a magnum primer with it. You will get unburned particles of 2400 (especially with light bullets and fairly light loads), but concentrate on the accuracy of your loads, as 2400 is an excellent powder especially with heavier bullets in the .357.

Don

rcmodel
June 21, 2013, 02:21 PM
+1

Assuming you mean Alliant 2400????
Your 14.5 load is not developing enough pressure for complete burn.
Your load is barely more then a starting load with 125 grain XTP bullets.

Up the charge to full pressure level and the powder will burn just fine.

The other thing you will see with 2400 is powder 'skeletons', or leftover ash in the shape of the powder grains that are in fact, not unburned powder.

Lyman #49 shows a Max load with that bullet at 17.7 grains.

Alliant shows a Max charge with Speer 125 Gold-Dots as 17.5 grains.
A 10% reduction starting load would be 15.7.

rc

chrt396
June 21, 2013, 02:22 PM
I use 2400 on my .357 and it is incredible. I am at work right now...so I don't have my recipe on hand...but it seems as if the load you are using is pretty light! At least as far as I can remember. I love the shock and awe of that powder. Looks great at night time as well. 12' flame thrower! :fire:

RealGun
June 21, 2013, 02:30 PM
Chrt396 - I use 2400 on my .357 and it is incredible. I am at work right now...so I don't have my recipe on hand...but it seems as if the load you are using is pretty light! At least as far as I can remember. I love the shock and awe of that powder. Looks great at night time as well. 12' flame thrower!

Yes, that is my "starting load".

RealGun
June 21, 2013, 02:40 PM
rcmodel - Lyman #49 shows a Max load with that bullet at 17.7 grains.

Alliant shows a Max charge with Speer 125 Gold-Dots as 17.5 grains.
A 10% reduction starting load would be 15.7.

I went by Hornady for their own bullet (125 gr XTP). 14.5 was in range of the second level load of 14.9 (1300 fps). The first step is 13.9 at 1250 fps. Other steps are 15.9 at 1350 fps, and a red line of 16.9 at 1400 fps.

I can at least go to the next size auto index throat for the Lee powder measure, putting me in the 15-15.5 grain range. If "full pressure" is supposed to work well with this powder, I might as well do 10 of each of the next two levels of powder measure apertures.

david bachelder
June 21, 2013, 02:42 PM
Alliant 2400 makes a great Magnum load, so does H-110 and Win 296 (I understand these two are the same).

All of my books call for magnum primers in the .357.

rcmodel
June 21, 2013, 02:50 PM
Aliant 2400 will perform best with standard primers.

Books simplify things by only using one primer in all the loads.

Ball powder like H-110 & W-296 require magnum primers.

Alliant 2400 does not.

rc

ljnowell
June 21, 2013, 03:30 PM
16.2gr of 2400 wth a standard primer is my go-to 125gr JHP load. 14.5gr is the classic 158gr bullet load in 357. More people use that 14.5gr load under a 158gr bullet than any other, when we polled in here one time was amazing the people who used it.

gamestalker
June 21, 2013, 04:22 PM
What is probably causing those powder flakes is likely a load that is too light. I'm assuming you are referring to 2400, probably a typo or something? But if you are referring to 2400, it is a great powder, but it's one of those propellants that performs better at higher pressures. I'm not saying you need to jump into max end data, but at 14.5 grs. you are only .1 grs. above Hornady's published start charge, and hornady is conservative to begin with. But I would also like to commend you for using a proper approach to reloading, in that, you started at the bottom end, rather than just jumping into higher end charges.

And in the scope of other published data using 2400 with 125 gr. JHP's, Nosler, Sierra, and Speer all use significantly higher starting charges than Hornady.

I would bump your charge up a tad and see if it cleans up any, maybe go to 15.0 or so. And if you see some improvement you know your on the right track.

One other possible I considered is the crimp being too light. When using powders like 2400 and jacketed bullets, it is especially important to apply a full roll crimp over the bottom edge of the canelure, and touches the bottom of the canelure. This assures that the bullet won't jump up from the mouth as it approaches battery, and also helps produce a complete burn.

GS

BYJO4
June 21, 2013, 05:10 PM
2400 is an excellent powder for heavier 357 loads. You need to slowly increase your powder charge to eliminate your problem.

RealGun
June 21, 2013, 08:29 PM
I have a dozen rounds ready at 15.2 gr. I also rechecked the crimp and crimp groove positioning, and that looks optimal. I have a new chronograph and might try that out with this batch. I'll be shooting these in a 5" GP100 Ruger and maybe a few in an SP101 3". What I am after in 125 gr bullet is a round that is reasonable to shoot in a small frame SP101...less of a flincher, actually.

rcmodel
June 21, 2013, 08:46 PM
If you want to down-load for less recoil & flash?

You would be better served with a faster powder then 2400.

Like Unique for instance.

It will burn more completely at lower pressure then 2400 or other slow magnum class powders while still giving the same velocity as a reduced load of slow powder.

rc

au_prospector
June 21, 2013, 09:41 PM
Used standard winchester primer and loads of
10 each of 15 gr, 15.5 gr, 16 gr, and 16.5 gr
All preformed admirably out of a 4 inch 586. 15 grains was lighter than my factory stuff, 16 grains was my favorite. At 16.5 grains there was more recoil and flash was brilliant. All loads grouped nice for me, but 16 grains seemed best.

No chrono, thats next on my list. My little test simply allowed me to decide on 16 grains as my go to load using 125 grain HP bullets. I do not remember seeing any unburnt powder.

icanthitabarn
June 21, 2013, 11:29 PM
My DW loves 17.8 gr. of 2400. It is, by far, the best shooting weight of XTPs, and I had to try them all :)

Crashbox
June 22, 2013, 12:05 AM
I often shoot 125 JHP's with 17.2 grains of 2400 and I do use magnum primers. They chrono around 1350-ish from my GP100 4" .357.

The report and fireball from this load is something else. All sorts of fun to shoot.

ArchAngelCD
June 22, 2013, 12:32 AM
I agree with the above, you might want to use a faster powder than 2400. I like HS-6/W540 for middle to middle-hot range .357 Magnum rounds.

ljnowell
June 22, 2013, 12:37 AM
Used standard winchester primer and loads of
10 each of 15 gr, 15.5 gr, 16 gr, and 16.5 gr
All preformed admirably out of a 4 inch 586. 15 grains was lighter than my factory stuff, 16 grains was my favorite. At 16.5 grains there was more recoil and flash was brilliant. All loads grouped nice for me, but 16 grains seemed best.

No chrono, thats next on my list. My little test simply allowed me to decide on 16 grains as my go to load using 125 grain HP bullets. I do not remember seeing any unburnt powder.

I settled on 16.2 for the 125 because it was so accurate out of my 686 and I felt it had enough boom.

joneb
June 22, 2013, 01:20 AM
I have used 2400 with very good result in a Ruger Sec. Six with 158gr JHPs.
Using 14.2gr of 2400 with F-200. Oddly the F-200 is the only mag. primer that works well for this load.

Magnum Shooter
June 22, 2013, 04:23 AM
17.0g of 2400 under a Remington 125g SJHP works well in my 6” Python.

RealGun
June 22, 2013, 09:36 AM
rcmodel - If you want to down-load for less recoil & flash?

You would be better served with a faster powder then 2400.

Like Unique for instance.

It will burn more completely at lower pressure then 2400 or other slow magnum class powders while still giving the same velocity as a reduced load of slow powder.

rc

I have an unopened pound of Unique. Any suggestions for a load that is still a serious .357 Magnum, maybe a step above .38 Special +P in the smaller SP101? I just need something that is lighter than typical factory loads and that will give me time to learn to handle this smaller gun.

Lee book shows a 125 gr jacketed load using 8.7-9.6 gr Unique. Alliant's Reloader's Guide Shows the 9.6 load. How about 9.0 for starters?

I might try some of the pink box (light) Hornady Critical defense and use that as a performance benchmark, if it seems to be better for me at this stage.

Understand that I only have trouble with the guns that are not well balanced for the sake of power and concealability. They necessarily seem pretty snappy, causing me to fight off a flinch. During the same session yesterday I was sampling Buffalo Bore 260 grain and Double Tap 260 gr +P in my .45 Colt Redhawk. While I might not call it fun, I wasn't really that shocked and continued through a full cylinder of each (at $1.50 a shot). By the time I got to the .45 ACP S&W, the feel of the discharge seemed pretty puny by comparison. I forgot all but one moon clip and the moon clip unloader tool, so it was six shots and done. Just as well.

243winxb
June 22, 2013, 10:34 AM
Lee book shows a 125 gr jacketed load using 8.7-9.6 gr Unique. Alliant's Reloader's Guide Shows the 9.6 load. How about 9.0 for starters?
start 8.7gr. Take note that the 135gr bullet has a max of 7.8gr Alliant data. Strange that 10gr more bullet weight makes that much difference in max powder 9.6 to 7.8 :confused: Consider that bullet bearing surface would be longer (a guess) on the heavy bullet. Seating depth may also be a factor (another guess) Note that i guess a lot.:D

Buck13
June 22, 2013, 11:47 AM
I use 2400 on my .357 and it is incredible. I am at work right now...so I don't have my recipe on hand...but it seems as if the load you are using is pretty light! At least as far as I can remember. I love the shock and awe of that powder. Looks great at night time as well. 12' flame thrower! :fire:
Twelve FEET? That sounds fun!

RealGun
June 22, 2013, 02:43 PM
The 15.2 gr 2400 load seemed to work well...accurate (on target, no science here) and no powder on the bench as with the lighter load. I will still try a sample of each of two more increments before settling on how close to full power I want to be for now. Then I will try the Unique, but I don't want to get stuck on something I can't buy. Nevertheless, a pound of powder is a lot of shooting.

RealGun
June 24, 2013, 12:39 PM
The .126 aperture (next largest) yielded 16.5 gr 2400, so after making 6 rounds of that, I used the micro adjust aperture to get a 15.6 gr measure for another half dozen to test. The Hornady book shows 16.9 as the max for this powder and bullet (125 gr XTP).

243winxb
June 24, 2013, 12:56 PM
http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/Firearms%20%20and%20%20Reloading/KABOOM/RugerGP100.jpg This Ruger GP100 forcing cone is eroded on the inner edges and the forcing cone is split. Looks just like my old Colt Trooper did, from firing 125 gr jacketed at maximum pressures. Both need/needed a new barrel. I feel mine was a heat related problem. Firing 50 rounds, rapid fire, on a 90+ degree day.

ljnowell
June 24, 2013, 03:46 PM
This Ruger GP100 forcing cone is eroded on the inner edges and the forcing cone is split. Looks just like my old Colt Trooper did, from firing 125 gr jacketed at maximum

Boy, thats ugly! That ought to be enough to make people think. Thats a considerably stronger setup than a smith K frame which was known to crack. I have only ran about 500 of the 125gr JHPs through my 686 and thats enough for me after seeing the carnage it can cause.

USSR
June 24, 2013, 09:26 PM
RealGun,

Of course, you can load the 125's to what ever power level you want. However, typically, these light bullets are loaded up to a power level that the bullet is designed to expand at, which after all, is what a hollowpoint is all about. Personally, I use heavier bullets in the .357 to ensure adequate penetration.

Don.

RealGun
June 25, 2013, 07:32 AM
The loads I am at now, basically either 15.2 or 15.6, the latter not yet tested, are already rockets by the book. What speed is best for the 125 gr XTP?

RealGun
June 25, 2013, 03:12 PM
Shot the 15.6 gr and 16.5 grain loads. Both are good, but the 15.6 is worth doing 100 rounds for a real evaluation. The 16.5 was fine in both SP101 and GP100, but was more drama than I had in mind for the SP101. Truth be told, I am getting used to shooting these guns and am not as much concerned about recoil.

PapaG
June 25, 2013, 07:34 PM
Like peanut butter and chocolate, 2400 and the 357 were made for each other. If I were limited to two powders for most of my handgun reloads I would be hard pressed to go with anything but unique and 2400.

Driswalds
June 25, 2013, 08:30 PM
http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/Firearms%20%20and%20%20Reloading/KABOOM/RugerGP100.jpg This Ruger GP100 forcing cone is eroded on the inner edges and the forcing cone is split. Looks just like my old Colt Trooper did, from firing 125 gr jacketed at maximum pressures. Both need/needed a new barrel. I feel mine was a heat related problem. Firing 50 rounds, rapid fire, on a 90+ degree day.
How many rounds do you think was run thru your GP100 before the cone split?
Were they your reloads if yes how fast were you pushing them?

RealGun
June 25, 2013, 08:46 PM
Driswalds - How many rounds do you think was run thru your GP100 before the cone split?
Were they your reloads if yes how fast were you pushing them?

This is not the topic of this thread. Yes, it was hijacked earlier. Perhaps it could be moved to its own thread.

Walkalong
June 25, 2013, 08:51 PM
Want to download 125's a bit and be squeaky clean? Try N340. I know that works. I bet N350, 3N37 or 3N38 would as well. I had no luck with N-105 or N110 downloading a little. I may try 3N37, since I have some. Love it in .38 Super.

shadow9
June 26, 2013, 08:13 PM
Side note, re: Forcing cone pictured above - my 3" SP101 is still crisp on the edges - but I also run a LOT of lead (low velocity), and I use heavy bullets in .357 (158's mostly). Anything under 140 I'll just chamber in the .38 cases, or leave to .38 charges. Lil' 125's toasters are are unnecessarily abrasive to the gun, IMO, and leave little that a beefy 145 WinST or 158 S-GD won't take care of...
Again, opinion. and we all know what they're related to. :rolleyes:

(side note #2 - ran a 190gr Silouette gas-checked round recently (over ~10.3gr 2400) - didn't have a lot of flip, didn't seem to "whack" my hand as hard as the 158, but about a minute after test firing, my wrist was feeling a little funny...)

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