Better general purpose battle rifle than HK91


PDA






GraveMAL
June 21, 2013, 09:29 PM
Hi I recently purchased a PTR 91, a HK91 clone, with the intention of a SHTF rifle. Upon shooting though, found that it wasn't exactly the experience I was expecting. Because of its high recoil and "odd" design, I found that my accuracy was suffering. Also came to the debate of whether .308 would even be a good choice due to weight and limited carry capacity. So I was thinking about taking it back and trading it in(which my local shop allows for 30 days after purchase) for another rifle, one that better fills this role. So basically wondering which one. I would really like to avoid an AR or AK because I would prefer something different, not the same as everyone else has, but I will consider if it is the best choice.

If you enjoyed reading about "Better general purpose battle rifle than HK91" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
allaroundhunter
June 21, 2013, 09:32 PM
If you really want the best rifle for that application then it is indeed the AR. It is (IMO) the best defensive rifle currently made, and it is capable of taking up to deer sized game with the standard chambering of .223/5.56.

dirigoboy
June 21, 2013, 09:36 PM
Of the weapons considered, I don't know how you can go wrong with an M1 Carbine. If the consideration in self defense is not only you, but your more diminutive partner (wife/girlfriend), you can hardly go wrong with one of these. Basic mag is 15 rounds.....though 30's are available.
Relatively inexpensive ammo, easy to maintain, and good for up to 250 yds.
If you need a bug out weapon that's light, this would be an intelligent alternative.

SpentCasing
June 21, 2013, 09:39 PM
There is a reason everyone uses an AR or to a lesser extent an AK. Unless you are a total contrary-an I would give them serious thought.

dprice3844444
June 21, 2013, 09:44 PM
carbine is cute,but ammo logistics are a problem.get a colt 6920,6940 or a 308 ar-15.

pick something where ammo/parts supplies will be greater

Dean1818
June 21, 2013, 09:54 PM
AR15 in 6.8 SPC

Great hunting round out to well over 300 yards

Over twice the punch of the 223


The Hornady 120g SST in 6.8 is a thumper

Its a DRT (dead right there) bullet on big Texas boars (250 to 300 lbs)


And I imagine 2 legged critters as well.......

selector67
June 21, 2013, 09:57 PM
Why not get you a Golani rifle in 5.56/ 223, it is a Galil clone, part M-16, AK-47, and FN, mine is rock solid, ya, I know it is a century arms built rifle but they built this one right :) Or a SIG Sauer 5.56 rifle :)

David E
June 21, 2013, 10:02 PM
I purchased a PTR 91, with the intention of a SHTF rifle.

I (want) to avoid an AR....I prefer something different, not (what) everyone else has.....

These two sentences do not belong in the same paragraph.

Shawn Dodson
June 21, 2013, 10:16 PM
If I had to do it all over again I'd forget the 5.56x45mm M4 and go with a 7.62x39mm AK instead.

With an AK the cheapest ammo will allow you effectively engage someone inside a automobile. With an AR it's going to cost over $1.00 per cartridge for barrier blind ammo to achieve the same kind of performance.

Auto426
June 21, 2013, 10:25 PM
I purchased a PTR 91, with the intention of a SHTF rifle.

I (want) to avoid an AR....I prefer something different, not (what) everyone else has.....
These two sentences do not belong in the same paragraph.


This.

KingMedicine
June 21, 2013, 10:31 PM
How about a dragunov?

jmr40
June 21, 2013, 10:33 PM
Better SHTF rifle than HK91


For the same money buy 2-3 10-22's, enough for your entire family, 8-10 25 round magazines and as much ammo as you can afford.

Or an AR.

wraith56
June 21, 2013, 11:00 PM
Hmm... criteria for your rifle? Limited to "military" cartridges?

Have you ruled out Traditional lever rifles, mini-14, or a pistol caliber carbine?

Awsomepossum
June 21, 2013, 11:12 PM
I vote for a 357 lever and a revolver. Second goes for a rockola m1 carbine with a blackhawk in 30 carbine, blackhawk has to be a old model.

-v-
June 21, 2013, 11:25 PM
If you're set on a .308, how about a FAL? There's good reason that it was adopted by 90+ countries. It also made quite a name for itself during the Rhodesian conflicts. While its not the most accurate or lightest rifle around, it's more than accurate enough for social work to 500 yards or more, hunting out to 200 yards or so, and what's more you can always expect it to go bang every time. Plus, the ergo's aren't half bad either.

An other option to consider is either a .308 VEPER or a a M1A. The M1A has much better sights in my opinion, but the VEPR .308 is lighter. If we're comparing apples to apples, the FAL, M1A (a Basic NOT a National Match!), and VEPR will all have similar accuracy.

chicharrones
June 21, 2013, 11:28 PM
These two sentences do not belong in the same paragraph.

Is this relating to your likes or dislikes of ARs, or is this a grammar intervention?

OleReb
June 21, 2013, 11:29 PM
If anything ever really happened i'd be giving a AK to everyone in my house and then a lever gun to whoever didn't get a AK. AK's are a much better shtf gun than AR's in my opinion. I have shot several AR's and M-16's and cannot like them,they honestly would be one of my last ever choices of a shtf gun.

allaroundhunter
June 21, 2013, 11:32 PM
Is this relating to your likes or dislikes of ARs, or is this a grammar intervention?

You cannot ask for the best rifle for SHTF and then also say that you don't want an AR or AK. The sentences are mutually exclusive.

JShirley
June 21, 2013, 11:36 PM
Pretty much anything is a better disaster rifle than a HK91. My first suggestion would be a sturdy hunting rifle in a widely available medium caliber like .30-06, .270, or .308.

rcmodel
June 21, 2013, 11:39 PM
Not the same as everyone else hasIs about the worst possible criteria in the world you could possibly use when choosing a SHTF weapon.

It would not be a 'mine is different then yours" pissing match during a video game.

It would be what you can find common ammo, mags, and parts for in the aftermath.

And in America in the foreseeable future, that would be a 12 ga shotgun, a 30-06 bolt action, a 30-30 Winchester, or a .22 RF like a 10/22 Ruger or Marlin 60.

And any AR-15 in .223.
Like them or hate them, they are Americas gun, now, and in the foreseeable future.
And your best chance of keeping something running is one of the above.

Now, this thread will soon be locked.
Because we don't do SHTF & EOTWAWKI threads on THR.

rc

Certaindeaf
June 21, 2013, 11:42 PM
If you slammed someone upside the head with a mosin nugent.. nevermind.

Robert
June 21, 2013, 11:47 PM
Howdah Pistol

Cal-gun Fan
June 21, 2013, 11:49 PM
I've got an Arsenal SGL-21 and a Ruger Mini-14 586. Honestly, for a dependable gun, I'd have to go with my Mini-14, but thats just because of how I have it outfitted. I think the most important thing for you to consider is how do you want to equip your rifle? Irons, red dot, or scope? Rails/Pistol grip or a simple traditional stock? How far do you want to be able to shoot?

My Mini 14 feels like 8 lbs and looks like a 5.56 M14 with an Accu-Strut, m14-style flash hider, choate vented handguard, Nikon 3-9x scope, and sling. It's much more consistent than my AK (With the strut and 55 grain V-Max reloads I've gotten 10 shot groups around 1.5-2"). The Minis aren't so accurate out of the box, but theres stuff you can do to them to fix that. I like the feel of the rifle better than my dad's AR, or even my AK. Its lighter, more comfortable, lower profile, and easier to shoot. YMMV.

My SGL-21 AK weighs...probably close to 10lbs with a Leatherwood CMR (Good scope, but heavy), Midwest AKSM mount, and a crappy paracord sling I made. It shoots OK, but the round is pretty much limited to 300 yards. Ammos cheaper, but its less expensive for a reason, non-reloadable and not incredibly accurate. Not worth more than .30 a round IMO.

So if you're dead set on a semi auto, I'd suggest a Mini-14. Great little guns, especially with the accu strut. AKs are great choices...but they're significantly overpriced right now. I got mine two years ago for $700 (CA prices mind you), and now the same guns are going for at least $200-300 more. Not worth it if you ask me.

-v-
June 21, 2013, 11:51 PM
Well, easy way to keep the AR-15 running in a SHTF scenario is keep a quart of V-twin oil on hand to keep it lubed up and running well. Versus a motorcycle or a car engine, a rifle is a very very mild system. You can always salvage some motor oil during a SHTF scenario.

Certaindeaf
June 21, 2013, 11:51 PM
If you had like a sporting model of the 91, like the SL-7, that'd be the ticket. The fan wouldn't know what hit it!

Tirod
June 22, 2013, 12:07 AM
Had an HK91, no, it's not all that.

What constitutes the desire for a rifle? To have a working tool that is reliable, or just somethin differnt than all them other guys? If it's the first, you have to put some definite characteristics together, and you need to be able to measure them against each other to see what is better.

I have shot several AR's and M-16's and cannot like them, While everybody can and will form an opinion and then exercise their choice, what's going on here is the exact opposite. It's completely undefined with no data or way to compare anything. That would be exactly the way the Army General in charge of weapons during the Civil War handled the Lever Action Rifle - he hated it, we wanted soldiers to shoot less, and he made them use muzzleloaders to enforce his view. A guy named Abe Lincoln found it hard to change his mind.

Just a few years after the war, the rest of the nation spent a lot of money buying them. They had more firepower and did the job. The Army stuck to it's guns and kept dodging common sense.

Now, we have the Army Improved Carbine competition, which couldn't find ANY new combat rifle that would do a better job. And, they can prove it because they defined every necessary feature, and then tested them in ways everybody could duplicate, and got numbers we could all arrive at, too.

Not, "I don't like it." That is the sort of BS that Lincoln had to put up with.

So, if someone is REALLY trying to purchase a serious rifle for self defense, you first have to specify the exact features you need and what priority they should have.

One thing you DON'T get to do is expect that "I can use the most common ammo around." because that is .30-30. Like it or not. The second is expect that you can grab parts of any gun to repair yours - because you likely won't survive a catastrophic failure of your gun. You better train on transition drills to another firearm.

And if things are really, really that bad, it won't make much difference, you will either die of thirst in three days, starve in thirty, or be shot dead at anytime because you are a wandering lone wolf who is a threat to everyone who stayed put and has a lot of food and ammo to protect. So much for SHTF - you don't leave where you have it good, and that is exactly why it's stupid to do so.

Exactly why most of these threads thru out the internet aren't tolerated. We're trying to raise the level of conversation, not lower it thru entertaining lesser ideas. You don't learn to enjoy serious art by surfing porn.

If you want to learn the serious skills of survival, join the military, learn how to use real battle rifles and why they are superior, and leave the myths behind.

kimberkid
June 22, 2013, 12:36 AM
If you are recoil sensitive the HK heavy buffer and rubber butt pad really take the kick out of the 308 ... both are currently on Gunbroker and will fit a standard HK stock. I never thought much of HK's 308 recoil until I got a registered sear and an HK-51 clone

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/kimberkid/Toys/P1010656.jpg

David E
June 22, 2013, 12:37 AM
Is this relating to your likes or dislikes of ARs, or is this a grammar intervention?

It should be obvious that it's neither.

If SHTF is the reason for getting a rifle, as stated, then it's incongruous to want a rifle that would be hard to get parts and magazines for. Especially when the reason is as juvenile as "But I want something different!"

The fact that he didn't shoot it well and wants to trade it in would be a clue to most people. The AR is popular for several reasons.

fragout
June 22, 2013, 03:27 AM
I think your off to a good start, as you have personally handled and fired a few types of rifles, and found out for yourself that you dont like them. ( I'm not all that fond of the G3 types or AR types either.... and sold them off along with my Fal's after trying them on for size)

I ended up with the M1A/M14S, and like this rifle much better than any of the others, and would sugest that you try one for yourself.;)



Good luck with your search.

frankenstein406
June 22, 2013, 04:19 AM
sks

50 Shooter
June 22, 2013, 03:11 PM
I owned an original HK91 bought it back when they were $500 bucks! Once you learn the sites the rifle is deadly, swap it out to the long range drum and you'll see even better results. IMO its one of the best battle rifles in the world.

Clones are just that, clones and will never measure up to the real deal. This last weekend I saw a guy with a HK91 clone and all he had was problems. Mine never had a problem and would kill targets out to 500 yards with ease. Price now for a real one is out of this world but if I ever move out of CA it would be on my list to buy again.

X-Rap
June 22, 2013, 03:43 PM
Guilty of cloneism but I was never so happy to rid myself of a rifle than that one. It is also one of the rare in probably 100's bought and sold that I took a beating on though it wasn't huge considering inflation and how long I had to keep it.
Function was fine, just was one of the worst guns overall that I have owned.

JShirley
June 22, 2013, 03:44 PM
My former best friend (now deceased) Byron had a HK-91 for years. He belonged to the "never sell a gun" school, but he finally sold it after he bought a FAL from me.

HK91s are reasonably accurate and reliable, but are horribly balanced, and have the ergonomics of a brick. It's a fine rifle to shoot from a supported position or off sandbags, but is pretty much useless otherwise.

John

fragout
June 22, 2013, 03:55 PM
I used to own an HK91 myself, but could not stand the ergo's personally.

Sold it off years ago, along with the Fal's, as it didnt work for me either.

avs11054
June 22, 2013, 04:05 PM
An AR is the best choice, especially if youre set on a .308. I have a dpms tac 20. Best gun I have ever owned. It is extremely accurate, and as with any AR style rifle, the modifications are endless.

Torian
June 22, 2013, 04:13 PM
I prefer the action of a M1A or M14 to that of an AR type rifle in .308 / 7.62. I still think an accurized M14 is one of the best battle rifles out there.

billymarr
June 22, 2013, 04:19 PM
My self it is the Saiga in 30. Recoil is not bad my 95 pound Daughter can shoot it very well and accurately.

fragout
June 22, 2013, 05:20 PM
Below pic is my version of a GPR (general purpose rifle)

Have used them for various types of critter huntin, and the rifle with the ARMS mount on it to hunt black bear and elk. (Most critter gettin concerns deer, hogs, and coyotes.

Note: Pics are old, as I had just got done painting up the stocks/handguards, and was prepping them to be stuck in the safe prior to a year long deployment overseas.

I keep detailed shooter logs on both, and know as to what load will go where ever I need to put it at any given range out to my own MER.
(Iron sights as well as optics and NVS.)

Also document wound effects on various critters I have taken with them. (Example: If salvaging a coyote pelt is in order, the last load I would personally use is Winchester Supreme ballistic silvertip. I dont shoot them for thier pelts, so this specific load is devastating on coyotes and wild dogs.)

If you enjoyed reading about "Better general purpose battle rifle than HK91" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!