An accurate AR build and a challenge from a friend


PDA






Infidel4life11
June 22, 2013, 04:06 AM
Yesterday a friend came by while I was tinkering with my ARs and said that he wanted me to build him an accurate rifle....
Me: Remington 700 .260 or .308?
Friend: Neither
Me: Um what then
Friend: An AR

To skip the rest he basically wants a 5.56, Accurate, under 18" barrel, Quality everything, as easy on budget as I can get. I'm thinking a Recce or MK12 SPR? Well then he hits me with the idea that he wants to use this unicorn for courses, 3gun, target, truck gun, hunting varmints, HD etc etc. So it needs to me lighter and easy to handle. So recce it is, he's really stressing the accuracy.

(disclaimer: I know nothing starts an internet fight like, government, religion and ARs. Lets try to have an adult discussion and not get my thread locked. I'm going to lay out a parts list with some reasons why I chose them knowing I build rifles to fit people not trends. My way is a way not THE way so please don't try to kill me or others in this thread)

Starting back to front:
Stock: Magpul CTR. He didn't like the weight of my UBR or VLTOR, MOE and USGI had too much wiggle for him so CTR it is.
Buffer tube: Mil-spec. Because I have them on hand, they're strong and hes probably going to change the stock a time or two
Buffer and Spring: Spikes's ST2 heavy buffer and USGI spring. This combo doesn't make a whole lot of noise and helps calm down recoil. Plus he likes it
Grip: Tango down battle grip. Texture and Ergonomics.
Receivers: Both upper and lower are going to be forged 7075alum and T marked. It's strong and light, billet was out of the price range. I don't know what brand yet but more than likely it will be BCM I also have a Noveske chainsaw lower laying around some where.
Parts: BCG will be BCM, Trigger will be a ALG ACT with JP springs(I have a geissele on hand but didn't have it in a gun, he didn't like 2 stages) Bad ASS lever and a B.A.D Lever.
BUIS: Magpul. cheap and they work
Handguards: I'm a little torn here. I was thinking a troy alpha or Vtac 13". I have a JP, Noveske NSR 13.5, DD Modular 12" and YHM todd jarrett. He doesn't want a quad rail and likes all the above but couldn't really tell me which he wanted. IDK help me out.
Barrel: My thought is to go with a 16" 410SS mid weight contour, Mid length gas, 1/8twist with 5R rifling and a wylde chamber. The problem is getting one. Personally I think a CHF 4150 CMV mid length 1/7 556 will do the job just fine, I've had more than good luck with this barrel. IDK help me out
Muzzle: I thinking something out of the 3gun world IDK yet. I want this thing to stay flat while shooting.

I know I left a few things out like M4 feed ramps and the small stuff which will be USGI/Mil-spec things. Leupold 1x-4x optic probably (he's providing the optic)

So there it is, what do you think? Again please don't fire shots at me I would like opinions that are actually going to help and if you have an idea on a part different from what I have here let me know and give me a good reason why. I'm all ears.

If you enjoyed reading about "An accurate AR build and a challenge from a friend" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
allaroundhunter
June 22, 2013, 05:54 AM
Okay, well I'm a 3 gunner and I'll give you my input. For the handguard go with the one you can get in a 15" length (if that isn't possible, then as close as you can get), the fewer rails the better, and the smooth profile of the rail is what you want.

For the trigger. Well, I guess the ALS will work but he really shoot take a chance on the Geissele. They are great triggers and for accuracy a good 2 stage trigger is hard to beat (but I personally run a Geissele Super 3 gun trigger in my competition rifle).

I think you have most of the specifications for the barrel perfect, except I would use an 18" barrel with a rifle length gas system. It is an ideal length for 3 gun, and it will help with the accuracy that he is wanting. The longer barrel gives a good balance to the rifle and helps smooth out target transitions. The rifle length gas system will also further decrease muzzle rise.
**My biggest question is what is his definition of accurate? By that I mean, what standards has he set since he wants it to be "accurate"?

For the muzzle device you have 2 choices: the SJC Titan and a Surefire brake. I have shot both of them in competition and both in fully automatic ARs and they are both great. However, the Surefire is better. Ad a side note, that brake also allows him to add a Surefire can later on if he would like it.

Infidel4life11
June 22, 2013, 06:53 AM
Okay, well I'm a 3 gunner and I'll give you my input. For the handguard go with the one you can get in a 15" length (if that isn't possible, then as close as you can get), the fewer rails the better, and the smooth profile of the rail is what you want.

For the trigger. Well, I guess the ALS will work but he really shoot take a chance on the Geissele. They are great triggers and for accuracy a good 2 stage trigger is hard to beat (but I personally run a Geissele Super 3 gun trigger in my competition rifle).

I think you have most of the specifications for the barrel perfect, except I would use an 18" barrel with a rifle length gas system. It is an ideal length for 3 gun, and it will help with the accuracy that he is wanting. The longer barrel gives a good balance to the rifle and helps smooth out target transitions. The rifle length gas system will also further decrease muzzle rise.
**My biggest question is what is his definition of accurate? By that I mean, what standards has he set since he wants it to be "accurate"?

For the muzzle device you have 2 choices: the SJC Titan and a Surefire brake. I have shot both of them in competition and both in fully automatic ARs and they are both great. However, the Surefire is better. Ad a side note, that brake also allows him to add a Surefire can later on if he would like it.
Accuracy IMHO is 2-3MOA, precision is repeatable Sub 1/2MOA. I thank you for your input. I am a little worried about going 18" barrel and a 15" rail due to the overall use of this rifle. I have a JP set up pretty close to what you are talking about i think I'll have him shoot it and see what he thinks.

Beentown
June 22, 2013, 08:32 AM
I agree with a 18" med contour but I prefer mid length systems for more flexibility later. I also agree on using a 15" handguard so that you can reach out further on it if wanted plus it hides the ugly gas block.

Good luck finding a barrel anytime soon. The Wilson sounds about perfect for you but they are like trying to buy fairy dust.

Sav .250
June 22, 2013, 08:49 AM
Selecting and putting parts together with out the fine tuning ability that a gunsmith has just means you have put together a weapon you think will do the job.

Infidel4life11
June 22, 2013, 01:27 PM
Selecting and putting parts together with out the fine tuning ability that a gunsmith has just means you have put together a weapon you think will do the job.
I gotcha and I know I talk pretty general. I've been to a few armorers courses and built a share of guns. Currently taking trade school classes for gun smithing. I also held a few machinest jobs before the Army. There will be hand fitting and fine tuning on this gun. I try not to get too geeky because someone who's never seen a torque wrench, files or a scope lapping kit will take a shot at me in the Internet. Thank you for the input.

Infidel4life11
June 22, 2013, 01:32 PM
I agree with a 18" med contour but I prefer mid length systems for more flexibility later. I also agree on using a 15" handguard so that you can reach out further on it if wanted plus it hides the ugly gas block.

Good luck finding a barrel anytime soon. The Wilson sounds about perfect for you but they are like trying to buy fairy dust.
Thank you. The barrel is my main concern which is another reason I was considering the 16". BCM has 2 (ss410 and a BFH) that are 16" in stock. The I think about and the more you guys chime in I am leaning toward an 18". Any other brands recommended?

ObsceneJesster
June 22, 2013, 02:46 PM
16" is better suited for a combat rifle. 18" is better suited for 3 gun.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

Quentin
June 22, 2013, 04:59 PM
You're a good friend, your buddy is getting a great rifle with quality parts.

I kinda like the 16" barrel like the two BCMs you mentioned but if he's really stressing accuracy a good 18" SS can't hurt except by adding weight.

Again, really nice parts and I suspect your build will easily rival what a good gunsmith with AR experience could do for the same money. In fact I'd expect many a gunsmith might not be up to speed milspecing an AR (like using a BCM BCG).

gotigers
June 22, 2013, 05:19 PM
I currently have an 18" med profile, 1:8 nato, rifle gas. It is a great shooting AR, but the extra weight and length is a little slower. My next 3 gun AR will be as short as possible. Probably not SBR'd. Something like a medium profile, 13.5" or 14.5", midlength with a SJC Titan or Rolling Thunder brake pin and welded. 1:8, wylde. A quality heavy/medium short barrel is just as accurate as a longer barrel. I lose more velocity/drop for shots over 300 yards. I can compensate. Horner recently won a match with a SBR.

18" and over stick with rifle gas, 14.5 to 16" go with midlength.

I love the SJC Titan. My AR does not move. It is a great brake.

1:8, wylde is the way to go for any 3 gun AR barrel. shoot cheap 55gr for close up or good heavy OTM for longer.

All of those rails are good. Don't forget about the midwest industries ss and centurion forends. Just get a 12" tube or longer. If you can choose, get the lightest.

The ALG triggers are ok for most shooting, but for precision shots i would get a Timney 3lb or a Geissele S3G.

The rest of the stuff you listed is good to go. Just pick 'em.

Infidel4life11
June 22, 2013, 06:40 PM
You're a good friend, your buddy is getting a great rifle with quality parts.

I kinda like the 16" barrel like the two BCMs you mentioned but if he's really stressing accuracy a good 18" SS can't hurt except by adding weight.

Again, really nice parts and I suspect your build will easily rival what a good gunsmith with AR experience could do for the same money. In fact I'd expect many a gunsmith might not be up to speed milspecing an AR (like using a BCM BCG).
Thank you for the kind words and the input.

Infidel4life11
June 22, 2013, 06:53 PM
Checked out the Titan and did a little research. After talking to my buddy he gave me the green light so I ordered one from LaRue. I have a local guy looking for an SS 18" barrel. He said he has one in a heavy contour but knows some people that know people blah blah that maybe they have a med contour on the shelf. Well see. If I can get an 18" I will run a rifle gas system from BCM I have all the parts on hand. Is anyone running a different gas system I should consider?

Infidel4life11
June 22, 2013, 07:03 PM
I currently have an 18" med profile, 1:8 nato, rifle gas. It is a great shooting AR, but the extra weight and length is a little slower. My next 3 gun AR will be as short as possible. Probably not SBR'd. Something like a medium profile, 13.5" or 14.5", midlength with a SJC Titan or Rolling Thunder brake pin and welded. 1:8, wylde. A quality heavy/medium short barrel is just as accurate as a longer barrel. I lose more velocity/drop for shots over 300 yards. I can compensate. Horner recently won a match with a SBR.

18" and over stick with rifle gas, 14.5 to 16" go with midlength.

I love the SJC Titan. My AR does not move. It is a great brake.

1:8, wylde is the way to go for any 3 gun AR barrel. shoot cheap 55gr for close up or good heavy OTM for longer.

All of those rails are good. Don't forget about the midwest industries ss and centurion forends. Just get a 12" tube or longer. If you can choose, get the lightest.

The ALG triggers are ok for most shooting, but for precision shots i would get a Timney 3lb or a Geissele S3G.

The rest of the stuff you listed is good to go. Just pick 'em.
Thank you

Infidel4life11
June 25, 2013, 10:10 PM
Sunday we went out and shot my jp and a few others. He didn't like the jp, more than likely because it has a fixed stock. He liked the S&W Vtac, TS, stag g3 and my dads BCM 3gun step up. He really like the S&Ws because of the hand guard/barrel combo. So with that I'm thinking the BCM 16" 410ss barrel with a 15" hand guard.

JPG19
June 25, 2013, 10:32 PM
Sunday we went out and shot my jp and a few others. He didn't like the jp, more than likely because it has a fixed stock. He liked the S&W Vtac, TS, stag g3 and my dads BCM 3gun step up. He really like the S&Ws because of the hand guard/barrel combo. So with that I'm thinking the BCM 16" 410ss barrel with a 15" hand guard.

May I ask what the benefits are of getting a 1:8 twist rather than a 1:7? You obviously know what you're doing so I'm looking for some educated insight and opinion ;). Also, what are the real world results/improvements/benefits of a Wylde chamber? Are you shooting one MOA better at 100yds?

I hope this isn't hijacking your thread too much. Also, I agree with your choice of trigger FWIW.

Infidel4life11
June 26, 2013, 04:12 PM
"May I ask what the benefits are of getting a 1:8 twist rather than a 1:7? You obviously know what you're doing so I'm looking for some educated insight and opinion ;). Also, what are the real world results/improvements/benefits of a Wylde chamber? Are you shooting one MOA better at 100yds?"

May I ask what the benefits are of getting a 1:8 twist rather than a 1:7? The ability to shoot 50-55gr bullets with somewhat better accuracy and still use 70-77gr bullets for competition or hunting. Better than 1/7? Depends on the use.

What are the real world results/improvements/benefits of a Wylde chamber? If 556 and 223 chambers got together and made a baby it would be the Wylde chamber. Lead angle and Dia. of the 556 with the .224 bore of 223 or something like that. Highpowers, camp perry, 3gunners and some coyote hunters swear by it. I've seen some well made stainless Wylde/1:8 barrels do some amazing things.

Rumored to handle 80gr bullets

Are you shooting one MOA better at 100yds? Eh there are alot of other things to consider here. What the barrel is made of(CMV4140/4150, Stainless 416/410), How is it made(CHF), How is it mounted(free float/Standard hand guards), bullets etc etc. I've found the Cold Hammer Forge/Barrel Forged Hammer CMV 4150 and the 410 stainless steel barrels are the more accurate while matching the bullet weight with twist rate.

For me: I will always choose the 1/7, 556 chamber and Cold Hammer Forged barrel 14.5-16" for my own setups. I mainly shoot M855 62gr bullets and a little 77gr OTM. Keep in mind I do not compete in 3gun. I do steel matches and others but I don't compete to be top 3 I do it for the training. I shoot against guys with $5k guns using my carry guns and still place respectfully.

IMO: The 1/8 and the Wylde chamber are a great balance between 1/9-1/7twist and 223-556 chambers.


I have a 1 or 2 1/8 barrels but they are 556 chambered and I enjoy them.

Infidel4life11
June 26, 2013, 05:14 PM
May I ask what the benefits are of getting a 1:8 twist rather than a 1:7? You obviously know what you're doing so I'm looking for some educated insight and opinion ;). Also, what are the real world results/improvements/benefits of a Wylde chamber? Are you shooting one MOA better at 100yds?

I hope this isn't hijacking your thread too much. Also, I agree with your choice of trigger FWIW.
This may help you too.
From AR15.com
A Wylde chamber, which is a mix between .223 and 5.56. The 5.56x45 NATO is NOT exactly the same as a .223 Rem. The 5.56 spec allows for slightly longer chambers for higher pressures. The .223 has a tighter chamber around the neck and is shorter which allows for a bit better accuracy. You can shoot .223 ammo in a 5.56 chamber, but it is DANGEROUS to shoot 5.56 (surplus for instance) ammo in a .223 chamber. What the Wylde chamber does is allow for 5.56 ammo with slightly tighter chamber for better accuracy. So you can shoot both 5.56 and .223 safely with good accuracy.

Sometimes I explain things in a simple way and it doesn't make sense to some. So just in case my above statement was confusing.

Quentin
June 26, 2013, 07:38 PM
I think you're smart to reign in your buddy from the 18" barrel. The 16" BCM SS with midlength gas sounds good to go. Myself, of the barreled uppers I have, my favorite is a Daniel Defense 16" CHF pencil with midlength gas. 1/7" twist, 5.56 chamber of course. Very lightweight and maneuverable. Accuracy is 2.5 MOA or so, good enough for me. DD knows what they're doing when it comes to barrels and rails!

Infidel4life11
June 26, 2013, 11:37 PM
I think you're smart to reign in your buddy from the 18" barrel. The 16" BCM SS with midlength gas sounds good to go. Myself, of the barreled uppers I have, my favorite is a Daniel Defense 16" CHF pencil with midlength gas. 1/7" twist, 5.56 chamber of course. Very lightweight and maneuverable. Accuracy is 2.5 MOA or so, good enough for me. DD knows what they're doing when it comes to barrels and rails!
A DDV7 is one of my dreams. I haven't had a light weight barrel yet.

gotigers
June 27, 2013, 09:30 AM
yeah DDV7 is on my wishlist as well.

A16" mid is a great way to go. I've never had a light barrel on an AR. How do light barrels hold up for accuracy when they get hot? Do groups wonder or once you have a hot zero, it holds. Not trying to hijack. I would like to know, but it might be relevant.

allaroundhunter
June 27, 2013, 10:39 AM
Gotigers, as a lighter barrel heats the pattern opens. It doesn't stay tight and wander, it just opens.

MachIVshooter
June 27, 2013, 11:42 AM
If I wanted to put together an accurate rifle on a budget, I'd assemble the lower with an MOE+ grip, Ace skeleton stock and Geiselle SSAE trigger, then slap an Armalite M15(T) upper on it.

http://www.armalite.com/ItemForm.aspx?item=U15A4TB&Category=bce7fa68-373e-4afc-b00e-63fe2c75d131

That set up would run about $1,200 with shipping.

They used to offer a 16" (T) upper as well, but I don't see it anymore.

CMMG makes some pretty nice stainless bull barrel uppers in that price range, too.

If you enjoyed reading about "An accurate AR build and a challenge from a friend" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!