Advice question regarding non FFL xfer of handgun


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au_prospector
June 25, 2013, 07:44 PM
I am in Georgia and very close to the state line of Tennessee in the Chattanooga area. My work site is literally 3 miles from the state line.

I was a part of a conversation at work with three other buddies.

Buddy one is a Georgia resident soon to be moving to Alaska. He has been torn between purchasing a .44 mag lever rifle and a .44 mag revolver. He will be moving to bear country on Kodiak Island and will need to carry something. Today out of the blue he says "I have decided on a revolver, can you help me pick one out?" I says sure I can, and immediately start dreaming of Ruger and Smith shopping.

Buddy two is silent the whole time, just listening.

Buddy three chimes in and says, "I have an acquaintance in Chattanooga who occasionally sells guns if you need to go up and buy one." To which I say, there is a potential problem there as you would have to pay for a FFL transfer and TN has higher sales taxes anyway.

Buddy three then frowns at me and says to buddy one, "dont listen to him thats not a problem. FFL isnt necessary, it happens all the time. Who is going to know?"

I literally had no idea what to say... other than "Yeah you will recognize her acquaintance, he is the one with a tear drop tattoo off the corner of his eye."

My friend has absolutely no experience with firearms. He is a minister for crying out loud and is starting a church in Alaska. I know he will listen to me, but how do I combat this argument that it happens all the time and who is to know?

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Sentryau2
June 25, 2013, 07:55 PM
I dont see the problem....i am not familiar with your state laws but here a private transfer is completely fine as long as you dont have reason to believe that the person u are selling to is a fellon. If its a face to face sale then he hasent broken any laws that i know of.

au_prospector
June 25, 2013, 07:59 PM
So a Georgia resident can cross state lines and purchase a handgun face to face from a Tennessee resident. Private sale like that is okay? I guess I am ignorant, I thought you could not do that.

BK
June 25, 2013, 08:05 PM
there is a potential problem there as you would have to pay for a FFL transfer
Paying for an FFL is hardly a problem. But a private and interstate handgun transfer is completely illegal.
but here a private transfer is completely fine as long as you dont have reason to believe that the person u are selling to is a fellon.
To be correct, a private transfer is only legal between two nonprohibited residents of the same state.

smalls
June 25, 2013, 08:26 PM
You only have three options buying a handgun from a private party in another state.

1. Buying from a private party, they may ship it through common carrier to your FFL in your home state.

2. They may have their FFL ship it to your FFL in your home state.

3. They may carry it to your FFL IN YOUR HOME STATE.

See the pattern? It must go through an FFL in your home state.

au_prospector
June 25, 2013, 08:43 PM
Seriously how do I explain it to my friend other than saying its against the law? when my coworker is saying.

everyone does it, who is to know? and you can get a decent deal from someone I know in Chattanooga?

My friend is cheap and could bite on a deal if he can save a buck and get his revolver in Chattanooga TN with a 5 minute drive. I am trying to advise him not to do that and just saying its against the law isnt much of a deterrent.

AlaskaMan
June 25, 2013, 08:44 PM
Both pistol/rifle are readily available in Alaska. No sales tax up here. Have your buddy move up, immediately switch over to Alaska drivers license and vehicle registraion (which he's got to do anyway).

He's now a state resident and can do a face-to-face transfer. Ammo is a little more expensive up here. You haven't indicated if your buddy is driving/flying or taking the ferry. Flying with the firearm is not difficult. Driving through Canada (legally) with the pistol is nearly impossible. Taking it on the ferry (which does not stop in Canada) means that it has to stay locked in the vehicle.

The pistol is way easier to carry than the rifle, a good chest holster will make it easier to carry while harvesting all the tasty salmon that the brownies haven't eaten.

HexHead
June 25, 2013, 08:53 PM
My friend is cheap and could bite on a deal if he can save a buck and get his revolver in Chattanooga TN with a 5 minute drive. I am trying to advise him not to do that and just saying its against the law isnt much of a deterrent.


He's a minister and has no ethics? Illegal is illegal, regardless of how convenient it is.

au_prospector
June 25, 2013, 09:01 PM
Both pistol/rifle are readily available in Alaska. No sales tax up here. Have your buddy move up, immediately switch over to Alaska drivers license and vehicle registraion (which he's got to do anyway).

He's now a state resident and can do a face-to-face transfer. Ammo is a little more expensive up here. You haven't indicated if your buddy is driving/flying or taking the ferry. Flying with the firearm is not difficult. Driving through Canada (legally) with the pistol is nearly impossible. Taking it on the ferry (which does not stop in Canada) means that it has to stay locked in the vehicle.

The pistol is way easier to carry than the rifle, a good chest holster will make it easier to carry while harvesting all the tasty salmon that the brownies haven't eaten.

I should have thought of this. He is going to Kodiak Island, I think he is flying in, but not sure. They are selling one vehicle next week and the other one isnt winter friendly. You think revolver is best over a rifle? He does not intend to hunt, however is excited about fishing and will need a firearm.

rcmodel
June 25, 2013, 09:06 PM
Tell him to buy a 12 ga pump gun and a bunch of rifled slugs.

That's what the Alaskan cops & game Wardens use for bear control.

If he isn't a died in the wool big bore handgun guy?
A bear will eat him for lunch while he is blasting away with a .44 Mag revolver, and flinching like a big bird every shot.

rc

Frank Ettin
June 25, 2013, 09:11 PM
I dont see the problem....i am not familiar with your state laws but here a private transfer is completely fine as long as you dont have reason to believe that the person u are selling to is a fellon. If its a face to face sale then he hasent broken any laws that i know of. But he's violating federal law which I guess you don't know about.

So a Georgia resident can cross state lines and purchase a handgun face to face from a Tennessee resident. Private sale like that is okay?...No, he can't do that. When you thought he couldn't, you were correct.

Violating federal law regarding interstate transfer of a firearm can entitle you to up to five years in federal prison and/or a fine (plus, as a bonus, the lifetime loss of gun rights).

Seriously how do I explain it to my friend other than saying its against the law?...The whole federal law story on interstate transfers of firearms (not including the rules for those with Curio and Relic licenses and the subject of dual residency):

Under federal law, any transfer (with a few, narrow exceptions, e. g., by bequest under a will) from a resident of one State to a resident of another must be through an FFL. The transfer must comply with all the requirements of the State in which the transfer is being done as well as all federal formalities (e. g., completion of a 4473, etc.).


In the case of handguns, it must be an FFL in the transferee's State of residence. You may obtain a handgun in a State other than your State of residence, BUT it must be shipped by the transferor to an FFL in your State of residence to transfer the handgun to you.


In the case of long guns, it may be any FFL as long as (1) the long gun is legal in the transferee's State of residence; and (2) the transfer complies with the laws of the State in which it takes place; and (3) the transfer complies with the law of the transferee's State of residence.C] In connection with the transfer of a long gun, some FFLs will not want to handle the transfer to a resident of another State, because they may be uncertain about the laws of that State. And if the transferee resides in some States (e. g., California), the laws of the State may be such that an out-of-state FFL will not be able to conduct a transfer that complies.


There are no exceptions under the applicable federal laws for gifts, whether between relatives or otherwise, nor is there any exception for transactions between relatives.


The relevant federal laws may be found at: 18 USC 922(a)(3); 18 USC 922(a)(5); and 18 USC 922(b)(3).


Here's what the statutes say:18 U.S.C. 922. Unlawful acts

(a) It shall be unlawful—
...

(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph

(A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State,

(B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;

...

(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to

(A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and

(B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;

....

(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver --
...

(3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee's place of business is located, except that this paragraph

(A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee's place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States), and

(B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;

...

...everyone does it, who is to know?...Everyone doesn't do. I don't do it, and I know many other people who don't; but we've all bought guns from individuals in other States. We just did it the right way by having the guns shipped to a local FFL to do the transfer.

As far as "who's to know", the prisons are full of people who didn't think they'd get caught. How much does your friend have to lose? Conviction on a federal gun felony will be pretty much the end of his life as he knows it. Is saving a few dollars worth that downside? Five years in a federal slammer is not my idea of a good time.

People get caught all kinds of ways. Sometimes it's a matter of someone by mistake saying the wrong thing to the wrong person. Or getting caught could start out with someone's post in a gun forum on the Internet.

The odds might be long, but the stakes are huge. And the upside, saving a few dollars, is pretty inconsequential.

Jim K
June 25, 2013, 09:18 PM
Well, bank robbery is OK also as long as you don't get caught. What part of "it's illegal" doesn't your friend understand? There is nothing that would interfere with a trip to Alaska like a stopover at a federal prison.

Jim

smalls
June 25, 2013, 09:27 PM
Seriously how do I explain it to my friend other than saying its against the law? when my coworker is saying.

Tell your second friend to stop giving illegal advice. If he wants to continue to do illegal things, that's his problem. There is no other way to explain it. It's illegal, and he knows it. Whether or not he wants to follow the law is his choice.

au_prospector
June 26, 2013, 06:35 AM
for the good input. I know what I will say to him today.

Speedo66
June 26, 2013, 07:41 AM
I'm kind of at a loss to understand why any "legitimate" person, regardless of profession, would want to proceed in this direction once he or she was informed it was illegal.

Some FFL's will agree to accept delivery directly from an individual, so possibly we're only talking one fee, which can be as little as $20-25, depending on the particular LGS. You say the seller is only a few miles away, so, subject to local law, they could bring it directly to a store and save the shipping fees.

Hard to imagine anyone risking their liberty for that amount of money, regardless of how "frugal" they are. :confused:

NavyLCDR
June 26, 2013, 07:50 AM
I'm kind of at a loss to understand why any "legitimate" person, regardless of profession, would want to proceed in this direction once he or she was informed it was illegal.

Some FFL's will agree to accept delivery directly from an individual, so possibly we're only talking one fee, which can be as little as $20-25, depending on the particular LGS. You say the seller is only a few miles away, so, subject to local law, they could bring it directly to a store and save the shipping fees.

Hard to imagine anyone risking their liberty for that amount of money, regardless of how "frugal" they are. :confused:
Well, don't forget about the savings in sales tax. I don't know of anyone who makes illegal sales of firearms that charges sales tax.....
</Sarcasm>

HexHead
June 26, 2013, 07:58 AM
Well, don't forget about the savings in sales tax. I don't know of anyone who makes illegal sales of firearms that charges sales tax.....
</Sarcasm>
What sales tax? If he's buying it in a private sale, or if a dealer is shipping out of state, no sales tax is collected. The receiving dealer isn't selling the gun, so no sales is collected.

Carl N. Brown
June 26, 2013, 08:01 AM
Recent news item in Kingsport Times-News, Long story short: guy bought two guns in a private face-to-face, they turned out to be stolen, he is now the owner of receipts for the guns forfeit to the police (to be returned to the owner who reported them stolen). Apparently he had no clear ID on who sold to him and is just out of luck.

Selling to a prohibited person is a concern in private face-to-face with strangers, but buying contraband is also a concern. I would hate to go to Alaska with a gun, be required to defend myself, then find out the gun had been reported stolen in Tennessee.

You can run a Tennessee background check (TICS and NICS) on a private sale (last time I checked the private fee was $30; dealer fee on FFL BG check is $10); however, I have never heard of a private buyer being able to run a NCIC stolen goods check on a firearm. FFLs (gun shops and pawnshops) who accept used guns are required to report the guns to local police who then run an NCIC stolen goods check (this could be a local rule since we are on the TN/VA border). I have been in the local LGS when he called the PD for NCIC check on a used gun offered him by a walk-in (after getting seller's DL).

Another local gunshop (in TN) handles Xfers from Bud's Gun and Pawn in KY for $65. Getting local dealers to handle a FFL to FFL to you transfer is a pain in the derierre, even in-state as I found out inquiring a Sevierville TN auction house about receiving a gun in Kingsport TN: it would be simpler to drive there and do the transfer on their FFL.

I buy from or swap with people I know. I seldomn sell anymore. Momma said be careful around strangers, if it feels hinky, kick'em in the kneecap and run like heck.

Bubbles
June 26, 2013, 08:54 AM
What sales tax? If he's buying it in a private sale, or if a dealer is shipping out of state, no sales tax is collected. The receiving dealer isn't selling the gun, so no sales is collected.
While true in most states, including TN, both CA and WA state law forces FFL's to collect and remit sales taxes on the value of firearms purchased out of state and transferred in.

Art Eatman
June 26, 2013, 10:46 AM
See Post #14.

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