IDPA - The New Rule Book is Here


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Ric_in_OR
June 26, 2013, 02:53 PM
Announcement:
http://www.idpa.com/blog/post/2013/06/26/New-Rulebook-(Final-Version)-Now-Posted.aspx

Rule Book (final) for download:
http://members.idpa.com/Content/Rules/024rkapr.nst.pdf

Discussion:
http://idpaforum.yuku.com/topic/10555/New-Rulebook-Posted#.UcspdDukqlc

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waktasz
June 28, 2013, 01:06 PM
Yep, still terrible.

johnmcl
June 28, 2013, 03:05 PM
Did you notice that their are editor's comments still in the official copy? Sloppy work.

jim243
June 29, 2013, 02:30 AM
Well IDPA used to be fun, guess not any more, reads like the IPGA rule book.

Rules, rules, rules

jmorris
June 29, 2013, 10:12 AM
My crystal ball shows me shooting more USPSA and less IDPA in the future.

why.kyle
June 29, 2013, 04:35 PM
Has anyone seen a helpful guide on what's changed? I was just starting to shoot IDPA and learning the rules.. Now I get to start over I guess.

waktasz
July 1, 2013, 01:25 AM
Not a ton has changed, but they have dumbed down the sport a bit. The made the longest distance you can shoot shorter, eliminated some fun steel targets, and now require all reloads to be done while stationary.

Sam1911
July 1, 2013, 08:36 AM
eliminated some fun steel targetsI just read that section. I can't think of which steel targets that were IDPA appropriate before are no outlawed.

Refresh my memory?

Sam1911
July 1, 2013, 08:41 AM
Reloads may now be initiated in the open, if you've run dry. That's excellent.

Seventy-five percent (75%) of all shots required in a match must be fifteen (15) yards or less. No shots longer than twenty-five (25) yards may be required in scenario stages. 35-yard shots are only allowed in standard stages and limited to 6 rounds per stage.
I'll miss the very occasional 35-yard shot in a scenario stage, but this does reflect the IDPA founding purpose.

It is good that 35 yard shots are still fine in standards stages. This largely reflects exactly how I've set up matches for years.

Sam1911
July 1, 2013, 08:53 AM
Any required Loaded Chamber/Cylinder Reloads on a Scenario stage must be performed off the clock. Loaded Chamber/Cylinder Reloads may be required “on the clock” in Standards stages, such as the IDPA ClassifierInteresting. No mandatory reloads during a scenario stage. I'm ok with that. It was sometimes useful for stage design, but not very reflective of real-world procedures.

Magazine disconnects may be disabled or removed.Woo. Hoo. (Finally!)

Lasers that are incorporated into the firearm or sights are allowed if they comply with all other division rules and the laser is not activated during a string of fire. Tape may be used to prevent the laser from projecting.Good! (Though I still think it would be awesome if they'd let the laser sight guys try to compete using their lasers. Of course Crimson Trace, et al, would probably end up suing IDPA for defamation or something! :D)

ny32182
July 1, 2013, 10:00 AM
Glad to see some of the changes:

-Round dumping gone... this will finally stop miles of pages of whining about it on the internet, but have no real impact to the way the game is played.

-Holster can be a little further forward to point of the hip now I believe? This will stop the morning "nudge the gun 1/4" back to satisfy the scarecrow guy" routine at the beginning of some matches.

Not so happy about others:

-35yd shots... I put these into my matches once or twice a year, and have never gone more than about 6 months without seeing 30+ shots at a major in the southeast. Carolina cup had at least 6 shots of 30+ this year (two shots at a laser-ranged 38yd) and I've been to an AL match with partial hardcover shots at a paced-off 38. I don't mind a shot that separates the men from the boys occassionally.

-No moving reloads; this is the big one for me. It eliminates the one bit of shooter-optional stage strategy that there was in the sport. There will be very, very little that is not 100% choreographed by the stage designer now. I really can't imagine the motivation for this.

waktasz
July 1, 2013, 05:58 PM
They took the point of the hip definition back out. It was in the draft but not anymore.

waktasz
July 1, 2013, 05:59 PM
I just read that section. I can't think of which steel targets that were IDPA appropriate before are no outlawed.

Refresh my memory?
As long as you observed the proper target ratio, you could use a texas star or platerack in the previous rulebook.

I'm not sure why either of those is less IDPA appropriate than a steel popper. It's just another shooting challenge.

Sam1911
July 1, 2013, 07:28 PM
Ahhh. I've not run into anyone using either of those for IDPA. Maybe once or twice a few years ago, but honestly the don't seem to fit so I can't see a loss to the sport in that.

waktasz
July 1, 2013, 08:40 PM
I haven't seen them often either but there's no reason they shouldn't be allowed.

Sam1911
July 1, 2013, 09:02 PM
but there's no reason they shouldn't be allowed.Well, a pepper popper may be envisioned to be vaguely humanoid in silhouette, with a distinct "center of mass" to hit. Therefore, it can reasonably represent a threat.

Hard to imagine being attacked by a row (or spinning wheel) of 6" or 8" circles. My informal querying of IDPA shooters in the last few years has run into almost none who felt that a Texas Star had a "tactical" purpose in an IDPA stage, and I suppose HQ is merely acknowledging that they agree with that consensus.

They work just great in USPSA, where "practical" is given a much looser definition, and I'm sure they will continue to be available in that venue if you enjoy shooting at them.

Sam1911
July 1, 2013, 09:08 PM
8.8.4.2. Lights may not be attached to the shooter’s hand, wrist, or arm in any fashion
8.8.4.3. Rings or straps that go around any part of the shooter’s body (finger, palm, wrist, etc.) are not allowed.
Well, that sucks. Going to make my revolver reloads a bit trickier without a finger loop to keep the light handy.

Sam1911
July 1, 2013, 09:12 PM
9.7.4. During the Classifier only, shooters may load to division capacity or fully load their normal IDPA compliant magazines.

So, HQ catches on to what we're all doing anyway! :)

waktasz
July 1, 2013, 09:16 PM
Well, a pepper popper may be envisioned to be vaguely humanoid in silhouette, with a distinct "center of mass" to hit. Therefore, it can reasonably represent a threat.

Hard to imagine being attacked by a row (or spinning wheel) of 6" or 8" circles. My informal querying of IDPA shooters in the last few years has run into almost none who felt that a Texas Star had a "tactical" purpose in an IDPA stage, and I suppose HQ is merely acknowledging that they agree with that consensus.

They work just great in USPSA, where "practical" is given a much looser definition, and I'm sure they will continue to be available in that venue if you enjoy shooting at them.
It doesn't have to have a tactical purpose...it's a shooting challenge. Steel plates are still allowed, so why not a few in a row? You can't use all 6 in a stage because of the limits on steel, but you can use a few. I think 3. You could use it to simulate required headshots on a team of body armored ninjas if you want to talk tactical.

As for the star, isn't acquiring and engaging a moving target a practical skill?

It seems like HQ is afraid that IDPA will be too hard (or maybe too much fun) unless they put these restrictions in place.

Sam1911
July 1, 2013, 10:07 PM
It seems like HQ is afraid that IDPA will be too hard (or maybe too much fun) unless they put these restrictions in place.What's especially hard about a plate rack or TX star? I don't see the same reasoning behind this decision that you do.

ny32182
July 2, 2013, 09:46 AM
They took the point of the hip definition back out. It was in the draft but not anymore.

Oh good...

Really, I don't think I care about anything but the static reloads in terms of actual changes.

The last three of IDPAs major-majors I have shot were stage designed this way anyway, so it doesn't really come as a surprise.

I've never understood the limitation on number of no shoots used.... you can come up with a gazillion tactical scenarios with no shoots everywhere. I was hoping that would be gone but no such luck.

waktasz
July 2, 2013, 09:52 AM
What's especially hard about a plate rack or TX star? I don't see the same reasoning behind this decision that you do.
You think they eliminated them because they aren't tactical? You're probably right, but it's a stupid reason. Matches are supposed to be fun.

taliv
July 2, 2013, 10:05 AM
almost none who felt that a Texas Star had a "tactical" purpose in an IDPA stage,

you mean a small target moving erratically isn't practical? it's certainly not hi-fi replication of human movements when they're trying to dodge bullets, but at least it's moving on a curve and not always doing the same thing. it's better than static targets

Sam1911
July 2, 2013, 10:16 AM
You think they eliminated them because they aren't tactical? You're probably right, but it's a stupid reason.Yes, I do. In fact, in talking to lots of shooters, various MDs, and even an AC or two, the topic of TX Stars has come up fairly frequently and universally it's been expressed as a given that they weren't "IDPA". Fun, yes. Tactically relevant, no.

Matches are supposed to be fun.Ok. But lots of shooting challenges are fun. IDPA doesn't list "fun" as one of its raisons d'etre. It's "Defensive" shooting. Says so right there in the name. Why don't we shoot balloons, ice cubes, jugs of water, melons and all sorts of things that are fun? Nothing wrong with having fun, but IDPA has a mission and if something doesn't really align with the mission I don't see any problem with them drawing a line there.

waktasz
July 2, 2013, 10:20 AM
That's fine. I can only hope they will see their membership numbers dwindle and realize they made a mistake. I already decided to vote with my wallet when my membership expired at the end of April. The new rulebook convinced me to keep my $40.

Sam1911
July 2, 2013, 10:22 AM
Well, we shall see. Honestly I don't think 95% of IDPA shooters are going to notice a difference that will affect them negatively.

waktasz
July 2, 2013, 10:23 AM
That's because most of the ones I've talked to didn't even know there was a new rulebook coming out.

Sam1911
July 2, 2013, 10:25 AM
you mean a small target moving erratically isn't practical? it's certainly not hi-fi replication of human movements when they're trying to dodge bullets, but at least it's moving on a curve and not always doing the same thing. it's better than static targetsI don't disagree that it is a serious skills challenge. It just doesn't represent a threat scenario like IDPA tries to present. Attacked by an array of spinning disks? It's just too far a leap.

I enjoy shooting them, myself. Fortunately I can shoot USPSA if I want my "fix" of Texas stars and plate racks.

Sam1911
July 2, 2013, 10:27 AM
That's because most of the ones I've talked to didn't even know there was a new rulebook coming out.No no, I mean with the new rules in effect, 95% of them won't see any difference, or any difference that will matter to them. But we shall see. Who knows, maybe the changes will be a big deal and everyone will hate it. Time will tell.

ny32182
July 2, 2013, 10:36 AM
Is there anything that will be OBVIOUSLY different to most people other than the standing reloads?

It isn't like most matches had 35yd shots anyway. I've personally never seen a plate rack or texas star at an IDPA match... etc.

waktasz
July 2, 2013, 10:40 AM
I think the reloads are a big deal, but then again, 95% of the masses never used the moving tac-load behind cover anyway. That rule is just another way for IDPA to eliminate any individual thought from their matches and make it even more of a choreographed event.

Sam1911
July 2, 2013, 10:40 AM
Well, that the xDs now play in SSP! But otherwise, I don't think so.

Oh, and that you can shoot empty while on the move and do your emergency reload while moving to cover! That's a smart move.

waktasz
July 2, 2013, 11:11 AM
that almost never happens anyway because you aren't allowed to leave cover to shoot in the first place. The only time that would happen is running dry after starting a stage out in the open

tarakian
July 2, 2013, 11:32 AM
I used a Texas Star in my match a couple of weeks ago. It was used, along with a bunch of poppers and some specially painted cardboard targets, to simulate an attack by killer robots. Technically IPDA legal, nope, lotsa fun for everyone, yep. I used two plates on it the match before that to simulate bobbing heads above no shoots. My shooters also appreciated that. I'm not going to worry too much about this particular change. Unless I decide to run a bigger sanctioned match, I will continue to try to keep my local matches both challenging and fun using all the targets my club has. Otherwise, what's the point?

Sam1911
July 2, 2013, 12:40 PM
to simulate an attack by killer robotsAnd that sort of stuff IS fun (we run one match like that each year) but it is distinctly, and explicitly, not IDPA.

ny32182
July 2, 2013, 12:45 PM
Our club has an outlaw action pistol match once a month in addition to IDPA, in which we can, as a club, get our attack of the killer robots fix in, and use any targets desired. The downside is, it makes IDPA look consistent and fairly officiated. But that is the nature of outlaw matches.

My opinion, like the rules or not, if you are an affiliated IDPA club advertizing IDPA matches, you should make an effort to run them close to the letter of the law.

Jim Watson
July 3, 2013, 11:15 AM
If you have an affiliated IDPA club, you have signed a contract to abide by IDPA rules. ALL of them.

Of course you could do like one MD, Frank Glover, maybe: "We shoot six IDPA matches a year. This isn't one of them."

tarakian
July 3, 2013, 01:01 PM
I expect the world of IDPA will not come crashing down because one stage in a local match has some extra steel. How about if I say the other five stages are for IDPA and "evil" sixth one is "extra curricular"?

9mmepiphany
July 3, 2013, 01:18 PM
Is there anything that will be OBVIOUSLY different to most people other than the standing reloads?

It isn't like most matches had 35yd shots anyway. I've personally never seen a plate rack or texas star at an IDPA match... etc.
You should try shooting a Texas Star if you ever get a chance. They combine the satisfaction of shooting steel and the frustration of a swinger.

My take away from a casual look over the rulebook has been the the big changes are:
1. Standing reloads
2. Being able to start a reloads in the open
3. Round Dumping no longer being an issue
4. All striker fired pistols competing in the same class...I think it only affects the Springfirld XD/(m) and the H&K P7
5. Raising the weight limit of SSP guns
6. Changing Classifier classification times

9mmepiphany
July 3, 2013, 01:25 PM
that (referring to slide lock reloads in the open) almost never happens anyway because you aren't allowed to leave cover to shoot in the first place. The only time that would happen is running dry after starting a stage out in the open
The reason you don't see it is that reloads in the open aren't currently allowed, you can certainly leave cover and move to another position...and sometimes engage a target on the way. If you don't think you have enough rounds to engage targets in the open, you'll perform a Tac-Reload before leaving cover.

Under the new rule, I can leave cover without having to worry about running out if I engage a target on the move (optional, not mandated). If I don't put enough good hits on it (or if steel doesn't fall), I can start and complete my reload in the open and be ready to engage as soon as I reach cover

Sam1911
July 3, 2013, 01:34 PM
How about if I say the other five stages are for IDPA and "evil" sixth one is "extra curricular"?That's how we treat our shoot house.

ny32182
July 3, 2013, 01:38 PM
Oh I've shot them dozens of times in practice, and in uspsa... just never seen one in idpa. I guess I thought they were already not legal.

ny32182
July 3, 2013, 01:42 PM
Under the old rules, you could not leave a position of cover to shoot once you had reached the first position of cover in the stage... therefore you could only shoot on the move between the buzzer, and when you reached cover for the first time. Very few stages called for 9+ rounds in the open on the buzzer, so, I agree "starting a reload in the open" is basically inconsequential unless they changed the rule to allow for shooting on the move deeper into the stage...

9mmepiphany
July 3, 2013, 02:23 PM
I'm referring to moving between positions further in the COF where a target isn't visible until after you leave your initial cover. You have the option of engaging the, now visible, target, while on the move or after you reach the next position of cover

ny32182
July 3, 2013, 03:55 PM
Not according to rules forum/clarifications I've read based on the current rulebook over the last few years at idpaforum...

9mmepiphany
July 3, 2013, 05:19 PM
I must not be explaining it correctly. I just can't think of a clearer way at the moment

zoom6zoom
July 3, 2013, 05:23 PM
8.8.4.3. Rings or straps that go around any part of the shooter’s body (finger, palm, wrist, etc.) are not allowed.
My belt is a strap that goes around a part of my body....

Sam1911
July 3, 2013, 05:28 PM
My belt is a strap that goes around a part of my body....Sure! And I'd take that to mean you can't leave the light clipped to your belt (or a headband) while it is on, illuminating the stage.

waktasz
July 3, 2013, 07:13 PM
I must not be explaining it correctly. I just can't think of a clearer way at the moment
I see what you mean...and that isn't allowed.

If you leave a position and encounter a target you couldn't see from a previous position, you have to pie around whatever vision barrier is there and treat it as cover.

NY32182 is exactly right, you will almost never get the benefit of this rule unless you shoot a revolver or miss a lot.

twofifty
July 3, 2013, 10:19 PM
"I can only hope they will see their membership numbers dwindle and realize they made a mistake. I already decided to vote with my wallet when my membership expired at the end of April. The new rulebook convinced me to keep my $40."

waktasz, what are you going to replace IDPA with?

waktasz
July 3, 2013, 10:23 PM
USPSA, 3 Gun and practice.

I might get desperate between November and March when those matches dry up so I might have to come crawling back but I'm not looking forward to it.

Sam1911
July 3, 2013, 10:31 PM
I might have to come crawling back but I'm not looking forward to itOh good grief. The drama!

waktasz
July 3, 2013, 10:34 PM
What weekend does your club shoot on again?

9mmepiphany
July 4, 2013, 02:29 AM
If you leave a position and encounter a target you couldn't see from a previous position, you have to pie around whatever vision barrier is there and treat it as cover.
That may be generally true, but I just picked up a Procedural for doing that this last weekend at a Regional Match.

When I saw the target, I stopped, used the barrel as cover, and pied out to engage....however, the instruction was to engage while on the move :mad:

Sam1911
July 4, 2013, 09:29 AM
What weekend does your club shoot on again?1st Sunday.

waktasz
July 4, 2013, 11:20 AM
That may be generally true, but I just picked up a Procedural for doing that this last weekend at a Regional Match.

When I saw the target, I stopped, used the barrel as cover, and pied out to engage....however, the instruction was to engage while on the move :mad:
If you got a penalty for that it's your own fault for not arguing the rules properly. That's not a legal stage.

9mmepiphany
July 4, 2013, 05:34 PM
I seldom argue when a COF has been approved all the way to IDPA HQ.

I might view it differently if I was more competitive, but the difference between 3rd and 4th wasn't that important to me.

Now, when the State Match, end of Oct, description comes out, I'll take a closer look at it...I think it is going to be the first State Match under the new rulebook

waktasz
July 4, 2013, 05:42 PM
The stage likely didn't get approved by HQ. Regional matches get approved by the AC.

ny32182
July 5, 2013, 11:51 AM
I've shot many, many questionable or obviously illegal stages at majors.

I didn't shoot this match, but this is one of them.... this stage is not legal due to shooting on the move after leaving cover:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVL3YIYNarc

I've heard this was legal prior to the 2005 rewrite. I'm not sure exactly when this match took place. I believe it was an SC state match around 2004ish. Edit: Description says 2009.

Jim Watson
July 5, 2013, 12:13 PM
I follow the Bubba Rule; if the CoF is not immediately clear, I ask the SO what he wants me to do and then I do it as fast as I can. I may grumble later or light them up on the www, but when the buzzer goes off, I am following instructions and not worrying about the fine points.

Thetaii
July 8, 2013, 09:38 PM
As a new IDPA shooter I can say that I have been greatly enjoying their events, despite these rules. Anyway I just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents. :-)

MrBorland
July 8, 2013, 09:48 PM
I follow the Bubba Rule; if the CoF is not immediately clear, I ask the SO what he wants me to do and then I do it as fast as I can.


As a new IDPA shooter I can say that I have been greatly enjoying their events, despite these rules.


Words of wisdom from the experienced and the new. ;)

FWIW, I do as Jim - I burn few neurons worrying and griping about the rules. AFAIK, it's a counterproductive distraction that I generally avoid. I do ok and still enjoy the game.

tarakian
July 9, 2013, 11:37 AM
In addition to running an IDPA match every month, I shoot in one pretty much every weekend. Other than safety, the only thing I worry about when shooting is fun. It helps to remember, and remind, that you can't win anything. There is no Winnebego for first place. Be safe, work on your skills, and have fun shooting with like minded individuals. You might even make a new friend or two.

jmorris
July 9, 2013, 02:24 PM
I've personally never seen a plate rack or texas star at an IDPA match... etc.

That might be because a "real" IDPA match won't let you have more than 4 steel on any stage.

As Jim would put it, one of my "this isn't one of them" matches had this stage.

3 TX stars, one strong hand, one with counter rotating no shoots free style and finish up with one weak hand.

Video
http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/mvsa/aug15/th_augg144.jpg (http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/mvsa/aug15/augg144.mp4)

Another stage had a plate rack, that powered a pin wheel target with alternating threats and non threats, while it reset.

Video
http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/mvsa/aug15/th_aug145.jpg (http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/mvsa/aug15/aug145.mp4)

The videos are poor quality but you can get the idea.


I likely would have quit IDPA a long time ago if it were not for friends that I have made and the fact that it is the game that is played closest to my house every weekend.

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