Question for FFLs from FFL about ATF 4473 disposal.


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cyclopsshooter
June 26, 2013, 01:54 PM
Hello comrades, would like to ask any FFL dealers past or present about destroying 4473s over 20 years old. According to the 2005 (Is there a newer version of this book?) "Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide"

478.129e "The records prepared by licensed dealers... shal be retained through December 15, 1988, after which records of transactions over 20 years of age may be discarded."

What is the significance of the December 15, 1988 date? Everything must be kept before that date?

Has anyone who has disposed of 4473s more than 20 years old ever had a problem with the ATF because of it?

I also have the understanding that ALL bound books must be kept no matter how old.

Would like to clean house but don't want to burn my butt. Thanks for any help!

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Bubbles
June 26, 2013, 02:09 PM
GCA '68 was signed into law on 10/22/68 and took effect in December of that year. Add 20 years, mid-December 1988 is when FFL's could start destroying 4473's more than 20 years old.

cyclopsshooter
June 26, 2013, 02:12 PM
So I CAN shred my 79 to 88 4473s!?! If I read you correctly.

Bubbles
June 26, 2013, 02:14 PM
That's how I read it, but IANA lawyer and all that. I also don't have any 4473's that old.

BTW you may also want to ask at FFL Only (http://www.fflonly.com/forum/index.php), there are some dealers who have been around a while over there.

dprice3844444
June 26, 2013, 02:29 PM
just send them to atf records division.collect

deadin
June 26, 2013, 02:53 PM
What is with the reluctance of just writing to the BATF and asking??
You should get a letter in return spelling out the law.
Then file it with your 4473's and if it says delete after 20 years, have at it.

cyclopsshooter
June 26, 2013, 03:05 PM
What is with the reluctance of just writing to the BATF and asking??

Don't poke the bear. You ask them questions, they start asking you questions.

akv3g4n
June 26, 2013, 09:05 PM
I'm with deadin. I've e-mailed the ATF a few times with C&R questions and have always received a quick, concise response.

You aren't doing anything wrong by asking for their clarification. That way when they tell you that you can destroy them, you have the piece of mind of having it in writing.

BBQJOE
June 26, 2013, 09:20 PM
Dollars to donuts if you raise your hand, they'd rather have them , than you sending them to the shredder, no matter what the law reads.

dprice3844444
June 28, 2013, 03:00 PM
if you ask your question in writing,get a written response.do what it says in the letter,and somehow later they change their mind,you asked,they replied,you followed what they said.
here's the letter. what are they gonna do

HankR
June 28, 2013, 04:52 PM
here's the letter. what are they gonna do

Shoot your dog? Burn your house? Shoot your wife?

If you're lucky they'll just take your guns and fine you, but they have been known to change their minds after issuing a letter.

mgkdrgn
June 28, 2013, 05:53 PM
20 year old hand written paper purchase records are just so much dead weight ... good for kindling but not much else.

Of course, that kind of logic has never stopped the Feds before ...

Jim K
June 29, 2013, 12:18 AM
You can destroy right now any 4473's older than 28 June 1993. But AFAIK your book(s) must be kept until the business ceases to exist, at which point they must be turned over to BATFE. If the business is sold, the book(s) transfer with it. If the business ceases under its current name, and a new owner/company takes it over, I believe the book(s) get turned in since the new business is a different legal entity. (But in any case, never hesitate to ask BATFE, not me.)

It is always interesting that some folks will ask questions about BATFE rules of everyone but BATFE. If you are so averse to dealing with them, why get a license in the first place, indeed why even own or buy a gun? Take up knitting, which (as of now) is not regulated by the Federal government.

Jim

dogtown tom
June 29, 2013, 01:18 PM
Jim K ......It is always interesting that some folks will ask questions about BATFE rules of everyone but BATFE.....
+1

The ATF website has nearly every answer to these simple questions. Why ask the Internet when you can read the actual law, regulation or letter?


I continue to be amazed by the number of dealers that have never read one bit of ATF regs, preferring to rely on myth, rumour and gossip.:banghead:

Bubbles
June 30, 2013, 12:20 AM
It is always interesting that some folks will ask questions about BATFE rules of everyone but BATFE.
Probably because it's kind of like submitting a question to the IRS - ask three different people and you will get four different answers.

mgkdrgn
June 30, 2013, 01:06 PM
Probably because it's kind of like submitting a question to the IRS - ask three different people and you will get four different answers.
And NONE of those answers will be acceptable to the agent that ends up doing your audit!

:banghead:

cyclopsshooter
June 30, 2013, 02:03 PM
For crying out loud guys, why not ask here, maybe some oversight I made will pop up on here, I thought this was a place to ask questions.

Bubbles
June 30, 2013, 07:23 PM
For crying out loud guys, why not ask here, maybe some oversight I made will pop up on here, I thought this was a place to ask questions.
Oh it is, but this isn't something your typical gun owner or even FFL will know. That's why I suggested asking at FFL Only (http://www.fflonly.com/forum/index.php), as there are over 2000 licensees signed up on that site so one of them has probably dealt with this.

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