New AR, first round hangs.


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ID-shooting
June 28, 2013, 10:58 AM
New low-end AR, M4 clone. With 1, 10, or 30 rounds in any mag the first round hangs on feeding. Open bolt, lock to rear, insert mag, hit bolt release, hangs up about halfway stripping out the mag. Hit the forward assist, rifle goes into battery and away we go. 100% feed, fire, extract, and eject once first round is fed (300 rounds so far)

Clean and lube to GI standards didn't change anything.

Never had a NIB AR before, especially the years I was in the Army. Dug out my old armorer manuals, not much help there. I am thinking being a low-end gun the 4 rails on the BCG could use some polishing or the gun just needs a good break-in. Leaning to digging the finish stones out since ammo price is still bit high for just breaking in.

What does the collective have to say about this?

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M1key
June 28, 2013, 11:02 AM
Have you tried charging it by using the T-handle?

M

ID-shooting
June 28, 2013, 11:25 AM
Grabbed a dummy round, tried feeding by inserting mag, pulling charging handle to rear and letting go. Still hangs. One tap on the forward assist sent it home. (Wife is staring at me now, thanks lol)

Same results with different mags. All GI, some new, some not, mix of green and tan followers.

I guess I know what all those SPORTS drills where about now. LoL

M1key
June 28, 2013, 11:40 AM
Does your carbine have M4 feed ramps? If it is an "entry-level" AR it might not...

Have you tried a mag with no-tilt follower like a Pmag?

Do your mags fit loose (front to back play) or fit snugly?

Factory ammo, fmj bullets, hollow points, soft points, or reloads?

What make is it? Your AR should load easily with most mags and ammo. Hard to call without hands on inspection. Maybe the mags aren't seating deep enough? Keep trying. If nothing works call manufacturer.

Good luck.

M

ID-shooting
June 28, 2013, 11:54 AM
No, no m4 feed ramps, but the round hangs before the ramps. Have not tried other than GI mags. Ammo tried is PMC xp193, Rem 223, Norinco brass 55gr 223, WPA steel, Tula steel, Herters steel, and green-tip GI. All new, no reloads yet.

Am giving the mags a "love tap" like all good GI's should.

Rifle is a DT Sport. https://www.del-ton.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=DTSPORT

taliv
June 28, 2013, 11:57 AM
huh, weird. can you take a picture of it where it hangs before you hit the assist?

Certaindeaf
June 28, 2013, 12:03 PM
What the other guys said. Also, what I'd try/see is to see if the magazine is held up/high enough by pushing/holding the magazine up in the well while dropping the bolt. It could be that the magazine release isn't holding the mag properly.
Just a thought. Good luck.

ID-shooting
June 28, 2013, 12:40 PM
Here is one

ID-shooting
June 28, 2013, 12:42 PM
Here is another. Holding the mag made no change. As for loose vs. snug. They seem to "fit." Not tight, not loose. Easy to inert and remove but not much shake side to side or end to end.

M1key
June 28, 2013, 02:44 PM
Bolt is riding over the back of the cartridge. Apparently the bolt ain't picking up the round on the first try, but will under normal cycling. It would be interesting to try another bolt to see if that helps.

If you can't resolve this, I would definitely give Delton a call.

M

Jackal
June 28, 2013, 03:02 PM
I had the same problem with a Delton a few years ago. Turned out it was a burr on the front (barrel end) of the buffer tube, snagging on the spring. After smoothing the burr, turns out the whole buffer tube was bent inside/tweaked. Got a new one and voila, worked perfect.

adelbridge
June 28, 2013, 03:08 PM
probably 80% or more of all AR FTF is magazine related. Entry level gun=CHEAP magazine every time.

Zoogster
June 28, 2013, 03:31 PM
...not applicable

rcmodel
June 28, 2013, 03:37 PM
But he said he can't chamber the first round, even when he only has 1 round in the mag.

rc

Zoogster
June 28, 2013, 03:44 PM
You are right RC, I didn't read his post well enough.
If it does it no matter how many are loaded that is not the issue.
The title already had me thinking of an issue when I scanned the post.

Certaindeaf
June 28, 2013, 03:45 PM
It sounds like you've tried to send plenty different types of factory ammo downrange.
I'd send it back to the manufacturer. An AR should work with any magazine and good military/factory loads. period

popper
June 28, 2013, 03:54 PM
Check the mag lips to spec. Bend them to get the nose pointed UP more. I don't give mine a 'love' tap, I whack em good to make sure the base is fully to the rear.

Warp
June 28, 2013, 04:03 PM
I think some people aren't reading the OP or aren't thinking.

If he has tried so many different magazines, and this exact same thing happens on every one, I HIGHLY doubt it is a mag problem.

Also, he said he has tried pulling the charging handle back AND locking the bolt back then hitting the bolt release. It clearly isn't a problem of not pulling it back all the way or riding it forward.

1858
June 28, 2013, 04:50 PM
I would try a different buffer spring. When you release the bolt manually, the only energy imparted to the BCG is whatever is stored in the spring. It sounds like you don't have enough bolt velocity from a static start.

Certaindeaf
June 28, 2013, 05:07 PM
One of those fuzzy/funky pictures looked like the bolt had over-ridden the case. But then he preceded those/that pic saying that he'd be able to chamber the round with the forward assist. Maybe I'm wrong with the picture but if it's over-ridden, the forward assist will be of no assist.

mtrmn
June 28, 2013, 05:14 PM
The 4 rails on the bolt carrier you spoke of maybe smoothing -- you DO have adequate lube on these right?

I know you've tried numerous mags--do any of the feed lips show signs of rubbing on the bolt or carrier? IE-finish scraped off to bare metal etc?

It appears in the pics that the bolt tends to stop in the same place every time--is this the case? If so, hand cycle the action without the mag very slowly--do you feel any added resistance when the bolt reaches the hangup point?
Now do the same thing with an empty mag in place and hold the bolt catch in normal position so it will not interfere when you pull the charging handle back. The bolt should ride fairly smoothly all the way open and closed without any bumps/drags along the way.

I have also seen the head of the cam pin rubbing in its channel in the top of the upper receiver--check the channel and cam pin for bright spots. If the gas key screws have been aggressively staked, it can displace enough metal that a burr can rub in the upper receiver as well.

This does not appear to be the case with your gun due to the bolt position when it stops, but if the gas tube does not line up with the gas key it can cause a hangup also.

Certaindeaf
June 28, 2013, 05:21 PM
You have one of those "no go" gauges. It don't go. I can't believe the extent you've tried to make this thing go.

Trent
June 28, 2013, 05:22 PM
Feed ramps match, right? Carbine/carbine, rifle/rifle....

Certaindeaf
June 28, 2013, 05:25 PM
Code for toothed maw/locking lugs situated just so? send that thing back

ID-shooting
June 28, 2013, 06:07 PM
Here is what do know, the bolt is not overiding. It is firmly pushing back of the case. Pushing the forward assist sends the round into the chamber, bolt into battery, and the rifle fires. The rifle runs fine after the first round is in. This is only happening on the first round. Not a mag issue. Unless 11 magazines ranging from new commercial, new GI, to very well used GI who went through both Iraq and Afghanistan all have the same flaw. No mag with slow manual cycle creates no hang ups. Manual cycling doesn't feel as smooth as used guns.

If it were bad lips, bore, assembly, the rifle would stop during firing. This isn't the case. Gun cycles 100% under recoil.

It seems there is too much drag for inertia to overcome or the spring isn't providing enough force to counter the drag of the bolt and magazine together.

I think it is one of two things, or both. Poor polish/over coating of bolt carrier or weak recoil spring. If spring, a wolfe extra power spring should do the trick but I worry short stroking. If rough finish, gut should break it but I also wonder about helping that along.

I see no reason to ditch a rifle that otherwise works as intended. Logic and mechanics will sort it out. Why take the easy road?

mtrmn
June 28, 2013, 07:12 PM
QUOTE: Here is what do know, the bolt is not overiding. It is firmly pushing back of the case. Pushing the forward assist sends the round into the chamber, bolt into battery, and the rifle fires. The rifle runs fine after the first round is in. This is only happening on the first round. Not a mag issue. Unless 11 magazines ranging from new commercial, new GI, to very well used GI who went through both Iraq and Afghanistan all have the same flaw. No mag with slow manual cycle creates no hang ups. Manual cycling doesn't feel as smooth as used guns.

If it were bad lips, bore, assembly, the rifle would stop during firing. This isn't the case. Gun cycles 100% under recoil.

It seems there is too much drag for inertia to overcome or the spring isn't providing enough force to counter the drag of the bolt and magazine together.
I think it is one of two things, or both. Poor polish/over coating of bolt carrier or weak recoil spring. If spring, a wolfe extra power spring should do the trick but I worry short stroking. If rough finish, gut should break it but I also wonder about helping that along.

I see no reason to ditch a rifle that otherwise works as intended. Logic and mechanics will sort it out. Why take the easy road?[/QUOTE]

I had one kit build that had an out-of-spec upper receiver. The bore that the bolt carrier slides in was axially misaligned to one side--the bolt carrier did not slide straight along the centerline of the buffer tube. Once it was firing it was OK because the action was violent enough make the gun function. When hand cycling the bolt carrier would wedge itself against the inside of the buffer tube and stick in the rearward position. "Reverse-mortaring" the gun by driving the muzzle down onto a block of wood was enough to dislodge it and the bolt would slam into battery. Replacing the upper after finally figuring out what was wrong made it function correctly.
I'm NOT saying your upper is bad, I'm saying the possibility exists that the carrier may be encountering drag/resistance inside the buffer tube. You can check it by removing the buffer and spring and re-assembling the gun with JUST THE CARRIER. (no bolt) Tilt the muzzle skyward and back down and the bolt carrier should slide easily back and forth without resistance.
I know it sounds crazy but what have you got to lose?

mtrmn
June 28, 2013, 07:15 PM
Also every one of my carbines run best with the Wollf springs and H2 buffers. They will still function with cheap russian ammo without short-stroking.

3 of these are Deltons

ID-shooting
June 28, 2013, 07:54 PM
Ok, sounds like a good idea. Opened the rifle, removed buffer and spring. Removed bolt from carrier. Inserted carrier into upper without the charging handle even, closed rifle, set rear pin. Gravity will slide carrier all the way for and aft with a slight nudge when the carrier is contacting the hammer.

Someone else try this please. Does your carrier contact the hammer?

mtrmn
June 28, 2013, 10:44 PM
Ok, sounds like a good idea. Opened the rifle, removed buffer and spring. Removed bolt from carrier. Inserted carrier into upper without the charging handle even, closed rifle, set rear pin. Gravity will slide carrier all the way for and aft with a slight nudge when the carrier is contacting the hammer.

Someone else try this please. Does your carrier contact the hammer?
I think it should have light contact with hammer, but I'm currently about 200 miles offshore with no access to any of my weapons for quite a while.

With the carrier contacting the hammer, can you stick something in the ejection port and push the hammer down any farther? Or is it at the limit of its travel and stopped solid? maybe take a small screwdriver and pry VERY GENTLY down on the carrier and look for movement against hammer spring pressure. Your description sounds like it's really OK but anything's possible. Be sure to put a little oil on the bottom of the carrier where the hammer slides too.

One more question---if you are hand-cycling the action and manage to get the bolt closed on that troublesome first round, will the next round feed OK by hand or will it hang up in a similar manner? Have you even tried hand-cycling more than 1 round? What about the third round? 4th? etc

I'm running out of possibilities, especially with no gun of my own at hand to give me ideas. If you have one of the Wolff extra power springs, maybe in another gun, I'd just stick it in there and see what happens.

ID-shooting
June 29, 2013, 09:52 AM
No, hadn't tried cycling more than one. No other AR's on hand. Kind of wish there were. I would swap upper and lowers to see what would happen.

mtrmn
June 29, 2013, 10:17 AM
Was mainly wondering if feeding from both sides of the magazine had the same results or was the problem only from ONE side of the mag.
If it's always from the same side there may be some glitch with the feed ramp on that side.

ID-shooting
June 29, 2013, 10:23 AM
Was mainly wondering if feeding from both sides of the magazine had the same results or was the problem only from ONE side of the mag.
If it's always from the same side there may be some glitch with the feed ramp on that side.
Oh, that I can answer. Tan and green followers are opposite each other for some reason. So ya, happens on L and R side.

mtrmn
June 29, 2013, 10:56 AM
I would say it should be broken in with 300 rds thru it, but maybe just needs more lead downrange to smooth everything up some more.

This thing doesn't have a BAD lever installed does it? The symptoms don't fit, just a WAG.

ID-shooting
June 29, 2013, 11:01 AM
No, no BAD lever. Bone stock.

That was my guess, keep running it and break it in more. Figuring maybe polishing and finish took a dive in the rush to catch up with demand not to mention it is a budget rifle.

I am considering now marking the mating surface of the BCG and hammer the using the "fine" stone to buff them as well as the 4 BCG rails where I can already see some wear marks on the finish. I ran my finger over the tube, upper and all moving parts feeling for burrs, not finding any.

mtrmn
June 29, 2013, 11:24 AM
I'm out of WAG's for now. Keep us posted on it.

ID-shooting
June 30, 2013, 11:39 PM
Still have no idea what the issue was, WAS. Didn't do any of the buffing I was thinking but had some spare time this morning. Went and dropped 100 rds at the range. First round hung but then on first mag change the bolt closed. Second change, closed. Loaded up a bunch of different mags, closed every time when hitting the release. Looks like the fix was to just shoot it more. Very happy.

mtrmn
July 1, 2013, 09:35 AM
Excellent news! Standing down.

Infidel4life11
July 2, 2013, 12:42 PM
No, no m4 feed ramps, but the round hangs before the ramps. Have not tried other than GI mags. Ammo tried is PMC xp193, Rem 223, Norinco brass 55gr 223, WPA steel, Tula steel, Herters steel, and green-tip GI. All new, no reloads yet.

Am giving the mags a "love tap" like all good GI's should.

Rifle is a DT Sport. https://www.del-ton.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=DTSPORT
So a buddy of mine a while back had a Del-ton and had the same issues. We called Del-ton and they talked about a "break in period" after about 500rds we didn't have anymore issues. Lately I've put together about 6 Del-ton Kits with 1:7 barrels and mid-length gas systems and none of my "customers" have reported any issues.

Glad to see it's working

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