Can you SBR and AOW the same lower receiver?


PDA






wacki
June 28, 2013, 08:19 PM
Just want make sure I have all my bases covered with my AR15 lowers.

Will both the green stamp and the red stamp apply at the same time? Or is it an either / or situation?




Just learned about the AOWs rules which scares me. So many little loopholes to trip over.

.

If you enjoyed reading about "Can you SBR and AOW the same lower receiver?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
JustinJ
June 28, 2013, 09:26 PM
I'm apparently lacking in a complete knowledge of AOW's.

How would they apply to an AR lower? For something like a masterkey?

wacki
June 28, 2013, 10:13 PM
Front grip on pistol AR = AOW ?!?!?

Thread on the .22LR ruger charger..

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248211

not sure how accurate this quote is but:

I know you can't hang a hand strap from the front of a semi MAC 10, cuz that is a fore grip.

another thread:

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=10053

I haven't read the NFA handbook but it just got bumped to the top of my reading list.

crazy-mp
June 29, 2013, 12:17 AM
Its a either or situation, it can't be both.

You can have the sbr, and put what ever configuration you want to use it in as long as you return the item to its original configuration when you sell it. I get many customers that want the SERBU style shotguns because its a 5 dollar stamp instead of the 200.00 but when I tell them there is a 350.00 price difference in the gun and they can't legally put a stock on the AOW, but they can put a pistol grip on the SBS, most are capable of figuring what way to go.

The semi auto mac 10 question is correct also. only the full auto versions are allowed to have the forward grip attached. Once its a machine gun you can have all the bells and whistles on it you want.

wacki
June 29, 2013, 04:34 PM
The semi auto mac 10 question is correct also. only the full auto versions are allowed to have the forward grip attached. Once its a machine gun you can have all the bells and whistles on it you want.

Thanks for this. I'm becoming more and more convinced that gun laws are all about making it difficult for normal law-abiding people to own guns.

I guess I just won't mess with the pistol versions of the AR15. Too easy for me to forget about the foregrip.

Telekinesis
June 29, 2013, 06:28 PM
I guess I just won't mess with the pistol versions of the AR15. Too easy for me to forget about the foregrip.

The ATF has ruled that a angled foregrip is ok, but a vertical one is not. Kinda strange, but that's the way it is. I would just recommend turning an AR into a SBR because its the same price as if you were manufacturing a AOW on a form 1 anyway, and the NFA process isn't too bad if you're ok with waiting. With a SBR you can have a vertical foregrip regardless of whether or not you have a stock on the gun (that's more for the HK crowd, I'm not sure who would want an AR without a stock if you had the choice). My personal thought is that the AR pistol is just a convenient way to own a short barrel with an AR before your SBR paperwork comes back, but that's just me :D


How would they apply to an AR lower? For something like a masterkey?

The lower is technically the firearm so it must be registered regardless of what type of NFA weapon you want to turn it into. If you're putting a shotgun/masterkey underneath the barrel of a rifle, that turns the shotgun into a SBS because you are adding a stock to a shotgun (unless you have an 18" barrel on the shotgun, but that would be one strange looking gun).

Carl N. Brown
June 29, 2013, 11:40 PM
I would prefer the SBR registration route better: you can configure it anyway you want once its an official SBR (shoulder stock, no shoulder stock, etc.)

crazy-mp
June 30, 2013, 11:47 AM
The ATF has ruled that a angled foregrip is ok, but a vertical one is not. Kinda strange, but that's the way it is

Its because of the wording of the law, it says "Handguns with a forward vertical grip".(in regards to what is classified as a AOW)

The magpul angled grip is not vertical therefore its allowed

Jaymo
June 30, 2013, 02:31 PM
Since when is the hand strap on a Mac 10 considered a forward PG?
This is the first I've ever heard of that.
Everything I've read/seen/heard about that was that the cloth strap was legal, because it is not a foregrip.

Aaron Baker
June 30, 2013, 04:49 PM
wording of the law, it says "Handguns with a forward vertical grip"

No, it doesn't.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but the law doesn't say that at all. It's a rather more technical legal issue that causes the ATF to have the opinion that handguns with vertical foregrips are AOWs. I disagree with the ATF's interpretation, but that's a longer story.

Aaron

dogtown tom
June 30, 2013, 09:14 PM
ATF defines "handgun" as:
Handgun. (a) Any firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand; and

(b) Any combination of parts from which a firearm described in paragraph (a) can be assembled.

forindooruseonly
July 1, 2013, 04:11 AM
Since when is the hand strap on a Mac 10 considered a forward PG?
This is the first I've ever heard of that.
Everything I've read/seen/heard about that was that the cloth strap was legal, because it is not a foregrip.


Jaymo, everything I've read is conflicting. I've never actually seen a letter from the FTB saying definitively yea or nay, but supposedly there exist letters claiming its ok. Some semi MACs came with the strap at first, but they apparently stopped shipping them with the strap later.

It's a frequent topic of debate over on uzitalk, some seem to think its legal and then there's people like me who feel that if the ATF is willing to put out letters stating shoestrings are machine guns and Choreboy pads are silencer parts, then the soft strap which could be used to control muzzle rise on the front of the MAC is clearly asking for trouble.

To make matters more confusing, nowhere in the ATF's description of what constitutes a verticals foregrip does it say the foregrip has to be rigid....

Grunt Medic TXARNG
July 1, 2013, 04:45 AM
Take-away on this; just get the SBR stamp, which will cover you in any configuration.

wacki
July 2, 2013, 03:27 AM
Take-away on this; just get the SBR stamp, which will cover you in any configuration.

Or stay away from vertical fore-grips. My gut says I need to write a letter to the atf. I don't like taking chances.

MasterSergeantA
July 2, 2013, 04:23 PM
Thanks for this. I'm becoming more and more convinced that gun laws are all about making it difficult for normal law-abiding people to own guns.

Yup. I read a quote somewhere that if gun laws worked, Chicago would be more like Mayberry than Thunderdome.

TRX
July 23, 2013, 07:45 AM
>Handgun. (a) Any firearm which has a short stock and is designed to
>be held and fired by the use of a single hand;

People make fun of me at the range for shooting like that. Shooters who learned two-handed shooting would go spastic if someone tied their off-hand down...

laxguy59
July 25, 2013, 12:44 AM
As I understand a flexible forestrap is not a foregrip. If you write a letter about it you are likely to get a vague answer since others have tried on this issue before.

At least MPA doesn't seem to think it is taboo to picture front straps on their pistols
https://masterpiecearms.com/products.php?cat=51

If you enjoyed reading about "Can you SBR and AOW the same lower receiver?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!